s/o fuddy duddy rules. Modesty in behavior?

[Perry]

The issue of modest clothing is discussed frequently here. Several posters have commented on the fact that girls can dress modestly and still be very provocative in manner. I don't think we've discussed that issue at all.

 

I'm really interested in how parents address that. It's easy to make rules about clothing, but much more difficult to have "rules" about behavior. What if they seem to enjoy being thought of as a s*x object by boys? I see girls around here on a daily basis that are acting very provocatively, yet they aren't dressed inappropriately. These are girls with caring, involved parents, so it's not as if they are being raised by tramps.

[calandalsmom]

Im not sure what woman or girl wouldnt enjoy being found attractive or desirable, at 15 or 50.

 

I think the pursuit of some sort of modest a-sexuality in our teens is ridiculous. Teens are sexual beings and they want to be attractive and be found attractive. I think the line between appropriate behavior and inappropriate may be very different from one family to another.

[JoyfulMama]

I think there is a difference between being a s3x object and feeling pretty/attractive/s3xy.

 

My first thoughts are that being a s3x object negates the brain, and negates any feelings of the person. Feeling pretty/attractive increases the feelings of the person, doesn't negate them.

[Perry]

Im not sure what woman or girl wouldnt enjoy being found attractive or desirable, at 15 or 50.

 

I think the pursuit of some sort of modest a-sexuality in our teens is ridiculous. Teens are sexual beings and they want to be attractive and be found attractive. I think the line between appropriate behavior and inappropriate may be very different from one family to another.

:iagree:

 

The difficulty is finding the line everyone is comfortable with. I also wonder if many of these girls are just very naive and don't fully understand how they appear to boys, when they really are just trying to look pretty.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It's not just about sex. I think any person (male or female) who wants inordinate attention is immodest in a way. I don't mean that we have to hang our heads and all try to be wallflowers. But I do think that a healthy view of ourselves is balanced and isn't trying to be the center of attention all the time.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle

[Alenee]

 

I also wonder if many of these girls are just very naive and don't fully understand how they appear to boys, when they really are just trying to look pretty.

 

I believe some are naive. I talk to my dd about how she presents herself and what a detriment that can be to a boy if she's acting or dressing immodestly. She doesn't want to go down that road for herself but she should also be thinking about what it does to a boy.

 

IME, girls who are flaunting anything usually aren't looking for the s3x object status but rather someone to *love* them. Unfortunately many girls translate a guy being hot for them as love. Girls who are after attention like this are usually girls who have been abused in some way or have little to no relationship with their fathers.

 

It's not simply a girl wanting s3x. It never is.

[asta]

Ok, I'm going to quote the males of my family for this one:

 

What is the purpose of girls/women trying to look pretty?

 

-- To attract the male of the species.

 

They should concentrate on their intellectual and theological demonstrations and purposefully looking unattractive to find the "perfect" kind of male who is only interested in her mind and spirit.

 

-- What do we call this male? The BETA male. The guy who couldn't kill dinner if he tried. Dinner might kill him.

 

Yep. Just the typist here. DH and DS love these boards.

 

 

asta

[KnitWit]

Ok, I'm going to quote the males of my family for this one:

 

What is the purpose of girls/women trying to look pretty?

 

-- To attract the male of the species.

 

They should concentrate on their intellectual and theological demonstrations and purposefully looking unattractive to find the "perfect" kind of male who is only interested in her mind and spirit.

 

-- What do we call this male? The BETA male. The guy who couldn't kill dinner if he tried. Dinner might kill him.

 

Yep. Just the typist here. DH and DS love these boards.

 

 

asta

 

:lol:

[calandalsmom]

It's not just about sex. I think any person (male or female) who wants inordinate attention is immodest in a way. I don't mean that we have to hang out head and all try to be wallflowers. But I do think that a healthy view of ourselves is balanced and isn't trying to be the center of attention all the time.

 

I agree. A healthy girl doesnt feel the need to seek inapporpriate attention. How can we raise girls who have a healthy self image?

 

For starters we need to be careful in blaming them for boys' inappropriate thoughts. This seems common in some christians circles and its archaic at best and grossly harmful at worst.

[RegGuheert]

Ok, I'm going to quote the males of my family for this one:

 

What is the purpose of girls/women trying to look pretty?

 

-- To attract the male of the species.

 

They should concentrate on their intellectual and theological demonstrations and purposefully looking unattractive to find the "perfect" kind of male who is only interested in her mind and spirit.

 

-- What do we call this male? The BETA male. The guy who couldn't kill dinner if he tried. Dinner might kill him.

 

Yep. Just the typist here. DH and DS love these boards.

 

 

asta

Your guys are right on the money:

 

- Many women dress immodestly and attract the alpha males. You know, the ones who only want s*x and will slap them around later.

 

- The women who dress modestly may manage to avoid too many dealings with the alpha males and find a beta male who will be an excellent partner for life.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I agree. A healthy girl doesnt feel the need to seek inapporpriate attention. How can we raise girls who have a healthy self image?

 

For starters we need to be careful in blaming them for boys' inappropriate thoughts. This seems common in some christians circles and its archaic at best and grossly harmful at worst.

 

I agree. I think we also need to raise girls who are openly loved by their dads even in their teens. I was one of those teen girls who got in way over my head with boys because I was looking for love and all I got was s*x.

[Alenee]

 

For starters we need to be careful in blaming them for boys' inappropriate thoughts. This seems common in some christians circles and its archaic at best and grossly harmful at worst.

 

However, if a girl is acting provocatively and not taught about boys and how their hormones work, you're asking for trouble. Girls need to know how boys hormones react. Both parties ARE responsible for their own actions but parents of girls really should be proactive about this. The closer a girl gets to a boy, the more a boy's hormones heat up. Add immodest clothing, a petting here and there, a hug, and on and on...the boy's bubble is gonna pop!

 

Teaching girls to respect not only themselves but also the boys they are around is extremely important imo. It's far from archaic when talked about in the proper context. It has nothing to do with laying blame anywhere but with *respect*.

[Mergath]

I think there is a difference between being a s3x object and feeling pretty/attractive/s3xy.

 

My first thoughts are that being a s3x object negates the brain, and negates any feelings of the person. Feeling pretty/attractive increases the feelings of the person, doesn't negate them.

 

Not necessarily. My husband views me as a "sex object," as well as an attractive, intelligent person. In any healthy relationship, the people are going to view each other as sexual creatures, and be sexually attracted to one another, as well as appreciating the other person for their mind and personality. Trying to divide these things up and saying that you have to view someone you're attracted through to just one of these filters is silly, in my opinion.

 

And yes, teenagers are sexual creatures. The poor wretches are positively soaked in hormones. They're like cats that are in heat twenty-four hours a day. We need to encourage healthy sexuality instead of asexuality. Yes, it would be nice if they had little on/off switches for their sex drives, but that's not how human beings work. This is just my opinion, of course, but I think that telling a teenager to deny these feelings because they're somehow wrong only contributes to the unhealthy view of sex our society has. I really think we'd have far less problems if we had bowls of condoms everywhere and told them, "Be safe, and don't have sex if the person doesn't respect you as a whole person."

 

I'm honestly just baffled about how our society has gotten to the point where shoulders are "sinful" and sex is a bad thing. As long as you use protection and are careful not to get pregnant until you're in a healthy, committed relationship, sex is great! Bodies are beautiful, every inch of them! We should embrace the human body and the fact that we have normal reactions to it.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Mergath
Grammar oops

[Starr]

Not necessarily. My husband views me as a "sex object," as well as an attractive, intelligent person. In any healthy relationship, the people are going to view each other as sexual creatures, and be sexually attracted to one another, as well as appreciating the other person for their mind and personality. Trying to divide these things up and saying that you have to view someone you're attracted through to just one of these filters is silly, in my opinion.

 

And yes, teenagers are sexual creatures. The poor wretches are positively soaked in hormones. They're like cats that are in heat twenty-four hours a day. We need to encourage healthy sexuality instead of asexuality. Yes, it would be nice if they had little on/off switches for their sex drives, but that's not how human beings work. This is just my opinion, of course, but I think that telling a teenager to deny these feelings because they're somehow wrong only contributes to the unhealthy view of sex our society has. I really think we'd have far less problems if we had bowls of condoms everywhere and told them, "Be safe, and don't have sex if the person doesn't respect you as a whole person."

 

I'm honestly just baffled about how our society has gotten to the point where shoulders are "sinful" and sex is a bad thing. As long as you use protection and are careful not to get pregnant until you're in a healthy, committed relationship, sex is great! Bodies are beautiful, every inch of them! We should embrace the human body and the fact that we have normal reactions to it.

 

Let's see how you feel when she's 14. :D

[6packofun]

Agree, agree with this part of the thread!

 

There is a huge double standard that boys are to be taught respect for girls and girls demand it, but very rarely are girls taught to be respectful of a guy's perspective and hormones! Many, many teen girls are out there creating intense sensual situations with their actions and they enjoy holding the power over the guys--I think they feel that society will be on their side and never hold them accountable for acting trampy. Why is the young man usually responsible for leading HER into a situation or for HER choice?

[Susan in KY]

-- What do we call this male? The BETA male. The guy who couldn't kill dinner if he tried. Dinner might kill him.

 

Yep. Just the typist here. DH and DS love these boards.

 

 

:lol: They should sign up. We need a little more comic relief around here. :001_smile:

[Cheryl in NM]

Agree, agree with this part of the thread!

 

There is a huge double standard that boys are to be taught respect for girls and girls demand it, but very rarely are girls taught to be respectful of a guy's perspective and hormones! Many, many teen girls are out there creating intense sensual situations with their actions and they enjoy holding the power over the guys--I think they feel that society will be on their side and never hold them accountable for acting trampy. Why is the young man usually responsible for leading HER into a situation or for HER choice?

 

I agree with your agreement! :D

[asta]

Your guys are right on the money:

 

- Many women dress immodestly and attract the alpha males. You know, the ones who only want s*x and will slap them around later.

 

- The women who dress modestly may manage to avoid too many dealings with the alpha males and find a beta male who will be an excellent partner for life.

 

Well... after 18 years of not being slapped around but definitely having healthy sexual relations, I certainly can't speak for the alpha male / woman relationships out there, but...

 

I also have never feared getting my @ss kicked, raped or robbed, worried about where food or shelter would come from should something catastrophic occur, or wondered if I had an excellent partner for life. They're kind of like swans. It takes them awhile to decide if a mate is what they want (at all), but once they do, that's it.

 

 

asta

 

(who fully realizes many disagree with her, and that's ok)

[kalanamak]

Your guys are right on the money:

 

- Many women dress immodestly and attract the alpha males. You know, the ones who only want s*x and will slap them around later.

 

 

I know an alpha male who scrapped his way from very poor to many millions. He wanted a wonderful woman who would be able to keep up with him, bear him healthy, bright kids, and raise them with sense and personal discipline. He's just a SMART alpha male, by my thinking, and they have been married since 1963 (I was the flower girl).

[kalanamak]

I

 

For starters we need to be careful in blaming them for boys' inappropriate thoughts.

 

I just want to laugh when some young woman at work or the teen daughter of a friend bemoans men "wanting only one thing" when they are in spray paint pants, tops riding up to reveal a navel piercing and a flame or dragon tattoo erupting up their backs from their natal cleft, completely impractical shoes, heavy make-up and hair dyed black or bright red in a style that would have indicated alcoholism or mental illness 50 years ago.

 

And, I don't know that those thoughts are actually inappropriate. I allow all thoughts. It is actions I judge.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I agree. A healthy girl doesnt feel the need to seek inapporpriate attention. How can we raise girls who have a healthy self image?

 

For starters we need to be careful in blaming them for boys' inappropriate thoughts. This seems common in some christians circles and its archaic at best and grossly harmful at worst.

 

So when my eldest was about 10, a neighbor girl that he barely knew came up to him at a party and started the batting eye, slinky hip routine, asking him if he'd like to go on a date with her. I'm not sure ds even knew what her name was and she certainly wasn't one of the kids he hung out with.

 

DS comes up to me and earnestly asked if he were allowed to date. He and I talked about it for a bit and he headed off, content to not date for a few more years :lol:

 

Turned out that this was part of a convoluted plan to get one of ds's friends jealous because the girl liked the friend. Friend was very popular around the neighborhood in a sweet kid sort of way, but was not interested in the girl.

 

So if a girl goes around with behavior like this, she doesn't have any responsibility for the reactions that she gets? If they were 6-10 years older and she pulled this, would it somehow be the guy's fault if he took her actions and words seriously?

 

Why do I sometimes get the impression that the new standard is the girls/women think that they can tease, act provocatively, drink themselves into a stupor but that if someone reacts to their actions then the girl should be absolved of all responsibility.

 

I would appreciate it if this not be stretched into saying that I condone violence against women or that mini skirts justify violence. I do wonder however, why too much alcohol is often cited as excusing a women's provocative behavior but is rarely an excuse for the man who took her up on her offer.

[Peela]

Lol, I have an alpha alpha alpha male dh and he hasn't beat me up yet! (this is our 18th year).

 

I don't have a problem with a young woman knowing her beauty and sexual power. I think that's nature . However, I would hope that any young woman would also have a good relationship with her dad, plenty of physical affection at home, and good self worth. I would hope she would not feel trapped by any alpha male's attention on her, and knew how to get out of any situation she was ready to leave.

I am not into outward modesty, but I wholeheartedly feel that women should have choices and options and not feel compelled to put themselves out as sex objects in order to get what they think is love, when it isnt- and then compromise themselves. But feeling sexually attractive at least for a few years of our lives (before children come along) is a beautiful thing. Later, we become more invisible, and thats the way its meant to be- we are not meant to be invisible when teens.

My dd15 is very beautiful and attractive, and she has a beautiful dress sense. And yes, it is inherently showing some skin and her beautiful figure- but not untastefully, in my or dh's opinion. Yet in some groups, showing a shoulder or having a tight top on is considered immodest, as if these people have nothing better to do that judge and notice how other people dress.

Sometimes I think mothers forget whatit was like to be a sexy young teenager. It's a wonderful thing, a God given beautiful thing, and appreciated in most cultures. And we should protect them from dangerous situations and themselves, if necessary, but I think we should also celebrate them rather than "shut them down".

[asta]

Peela,

 

Lovely post, BTW.

 

It pulled forth something that had been scratching at the edges of my consciousness: I sometimes wonder if many women don't feel threatened by teenage girls.

 

I don't see this phenomenon in Europe (I don't know what it is like in other countries), but in America, in general, age is not revered the way it used to be. This concept is drilled in the media, in motion pictures - everywhere - that young is better. When the divorce rate is high (and "trophy wives" abound), I really do wonder if some women don't feel as if they are competing not just with the "younger" population, but sometimes with their own daughters. I even saw a contest the other day for mothers that looked the most like their daughters. Some of them were obviously trying quite hard, complete with what had to be surgical enhancement. Granted, that would be a sad commentary on their own self esteem, but that is an entirely different post.

 

 

asta

[Peela]

 

I really do wonder if some women don't feel as if they are competing not just with the "younger" population, but sometimes with their own daughters.

 

 

 

I think that is a huge issue in our youth obsessed culture, asta. I know for sure it comes up for me at times with a pang of jealousy at my radiantly beautiful daughter- since my own youth doesnt seem so far past and I actually have to remind myself of my age at times because I dont really feel much different. Becoming "invisible" to men was quite a shocking process for me to come to terms with over the years.

 

If we don't embrace our ageing and learn to let go of our youth, let the youth be youth, and mature in our own way- which can be amazingly beautiful in its own way...we simply become bitter and rather silly looking. Not to mention we line the pockets of plastic surgeons, or spend thousands on beauty treatments, and obsess over that which is inevitably going to pass- youthful looks.

 

At least a youth should be able to celebrate their youthful looks while they are youthful! And how is it going to affect a mothers relationship with her daughter if the mother hasnt come to terms with her own changing looks? I myself have trouble with gaining a little weight, and puffiness under my eyes- and its so hard not to think- oh, there is something wrong and I must do something about it- when actually, they are just natural signs of a gracefully aging body. My dd thinks I am beautiful anyway- she doesn't expect or want me to look like her!

[Mergath]

Let's see how you feel when she's 14. :D

 

Hopefully, the same way. :)

[justamouse]

Your guys are right on the money:

 

- Many women dress immodestly and attract the alpha males. You know, the ones who only want s*x and will slap them around later.

 

- The women who dress modestly may manage to avoid too many dealings with the alpha males and find a beta male who will be an excellent partner for life.

 

MY Alpha runs his own multi million dollar company which he built himself from 0, is my devoted partner of 15 years and the father of 6 of my children and totally (emotionally and physically) supports the one that's not his.

 

I find your post incredibly offensive.

[micandme]

Sorry... double-post.

 

No... wait... it showed up as a double-post and then when I deleted it.... it's all gone. :( It was a great post, too, by the way. Sigh....

 

Don't have time to re-type it... it took all my mental power to get my thoughts out right.

Edited April 27, 2010 by micandme

[micandme]

MY Alpha runs his own multi million dollar company which he built himself from 0, is my devoted partner of 15 years and the father of 6 of my children and totally (emotionally and physically) supports the one that's not his.

 

I find your post incredibly offensive.

:iagree:

[justamouse]

Im not sure what woman or girl wouldnt enjoy being found attractive or desirable, at 15 or 50.

 

I think the pursuit of some sort of modest a-sexuality in our teens is ridiculous. Teens are sexual beings and they want to be attractive and be found attractive. I think the line between appropriate behavior and inappropriate may be very different from one family to another.

 

:iagree:

 

Peela,

 

Lovely post, BTW.

 

It pulled forth something that had been scratching at the edges of my consciousness: I sometimes wonder if many women don't feel threatened by teenage girls.

 

I don't see this phenomenon in Europe (I don't know what it is like in other countries), but in America, in general, age is not revered the way it used to be. This concept is drilled in the media, in motion pictures - everywhere - that young is better. When the divorce rate is high (and "trophy wives" abound), I really do wonder if some women don't feel as if they are competing not just with the "younger" population, but sometimes with their own daughters. I even saw a contest the other day for mothers that looked the most like their daughters. Some of them were obviously trying quite hard, complete with what had to be surgical enhancement. Granted, that would be a sad commentary on their own self esteem, but that is an entirely different post.

 

 

asta

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

 

You know, even if women dress in business suits, hair coiffed with modest shoes, they're still accused of being trampy.

 

 

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/04/12/so-what-exactly-should-female-attorneys-wear/

 

 

They had different takes, to say the least. While it sounds like the panel attempted to be gender egalitarian, the advice for men boils down to “make sure your suit fits and is clean,” whereas the advice for women is 40-parts long, all detailing ways to not be trampy.

The chorus of female attorneys added some caveats: make sure your suit is not too fitted, wear flats, wear minimal jewelry, wear minimal makeup, do not wear hair in a pony-tail, do not wear hair down in a distracting way, wear pantyhose, do not wear open-toe shoes (especially in front of a jury says Justice Goldgar), do not wear peep-toe shoes, and do not wear dark nail polish (avoid burgundy, cautioned Professor Collins). Wear a shirt under your suit that is not too tight, not low-cut, not bright colored, not patterned, not ruffle-y, and not too feminine. Finally, when going on a job interview, do not carry a recognizable brand-name handbag because you are trying to project the image that you need money. Oh, and do not wear your engagement ring if it is large because it may anger your women interviewers and cause jealousy (and perhaps rage).

 

 

 

So, I would say women, being women in all their glory is the fault. I think men, and older women are intimidated by a younger woman's sexuality and its display.

 

I've been reading a book that segues in with this discussion, Steven Taylor's THE FALL

 

The Fall is a major work that overturns mainstream current thinking on the nature of civilization and human nature. It draws on the increasing evidence accumulated over recent decades that prehistoric humanity was peaceful and egalitarian, rather than war-like and crude. It is not "natural" for human beings to kill each other, for men to oppress women, for individuals to accumulate massive wealth and power, or to abuse nature. The worldwide myths of a Golden Age or an original paradise have a factual, archaeological basis.

 

The Fall pinpoints the transition to around 4000 BCE, when dramatic changes in the climate in central Asia and the Middle East made survival more difficult. These produced a sharpened sense of individuality among the area’s inhabitants, which led to warfare, patriarchy, social inequality and theistic religion. The author calls this the "ego explosion." He makes the case that rather than showing a continual progression (as some historians would like to believe), in many ways human history is marked by a degeneration. He shows how, even in the modern world, our over-developed sense of ego gives rise to warfare, male domination and other problems, and suggests what we can do to transcend it.

 

Finally the author points to signs that we are entering a new historical phase, where more egalitarian relationships between men and women, a healthier regard for the human body and for nature provide some hope for the future. But whether the human race survives or not may depend on whether we can transcend the sharpened sense of ego which has caused the last 6000 years of social insanity.

 

 

 

Basically I think women picked up men's patriarchy (perhaps to gain the approval of men?) and inflict it on other women.

Edited April 27, 2010 by justamouse
culling out random apostrophes

[Dmmetler]

Peela,

 

Lovely post, BTW.

 

It pulled forth something that had been scratching at the edges of my consciousness: I sometimes wonder if many women don't feel threatened by teenage girls.

 

I don't see this phenomenon in Europe (I don't know what it is like in other countries), but in America, in general, age is not revered the way it used to be. This concept is drilled in the media, in motion pictures - everywhere - that young is better. When the divorce rate is high (and "trophy wives" abound), I really do wonder if some women don't feel as if they are competing not just with the "younger" population, but sometimes with their own daughters. I even saw a contest the other day for mothers that looked the most like their daughters. Some of them were obviously trying quite hard, complete with what had to be surgical enhancement. Granted, that would be a sad commentary on their own self esteem, but that is an entirely different post.

 

 

asta

 

One of the things I noticed in Puerto Rico was that girls (and women, for that matter) would dress in ways that, in the US, would have screamed "Look at me! I'm Sexy! Look at me!". And you could tell the US tourists because they were the only ones who noticed.

 

One of the things that bothers me is when behavior is sexualized WAY before it's sexual. My DD, at age 5(!!!) got hit with "Alli's got a boyfriend" type teasing, simply because she enjoys building block towers and playing dinosaur and knocking them down with a little boy in her kindergarten class. And yes, they do sometimes talk on the phone and play together outside of school (the boy's grandparents live about 3 blocks from us, and care for the boy after school). What's more, when we were talking about our children's friends while waiting for our girls at ballet class, almost all the ballet moms were HORRIFIED that I'd allow my DD to "have a boyfriend" that young.

 

He's not a "boyfriend"-they're 5! He's a "Friend". My DD doesn't care that he has a penis, for crying out loud!

 

But in the US culture, apparently little girls are SUPPOSED to be deep in that sexual role, so much so that the only role for little boys is "boyfriend".

 

I've often felt that the best thing that ever happened in DH and my relationship was that, after that first flush of infatuation over a summer, we had almost three years before we were physically living in the same place again. So we had three years of phone calls and letters and really getting to know each other, with no possibility of it pushing farther. And truthfully, I think both of us held on to that "long-distance romance" as much because it gave us an out from the whole adolescent social pressure. By the time we were back together, we were ready to be more serious-and, indeed, progressed fairly swiftly towards marriage-but we KNEW each other. Just not Biblically ;).

[Smithie]

"...Add immodest clothing, a petting here and there, a hug, and on and on...the boy's bubble is gonna pop!"

 

Is this some cutesy way of saying "the boy is going to lose control and commit assault?" Because if so, it's pretty revolting. He'd better watch himself when he lands in jail, because who knows if the sexxxy way he brushes his teeth might make his cellmate's "bubble pop"...

 

If what you are actually saying is, "the boy might agree to have sexual relations with the girl who has approached him" - well OK then. Not my business. I guess it's his parents' business, if they are opposed to premarital sexual relations and he's under 18.

 

If what you are actually saying is "the boy might get all turned on and go home and masturbate," - this seems like a more likely outcome, frankly, of sexy clothing and hugging and dancing at a well-supervised social function for teens. And THAT one is definitely no one's business, especially the parents! If you (general you) are trying to stop your teenage boy from masturbating, look to yourselves for the source of sexual trauma in his life. Leave the girls and their prom dresses right out of it. And seek help for yourself, because DANG.

[micandme]

 

But in the US culture, apparently little girls are SUPPOSED to be deep in that sexual role, so much so that the only role for little boys is "boyfriend".

 

 

 

Ohhhh, that is so true and so sad. My 9 year old has a good friend at church who happens to be a boy and everything from the other kids is "boyfriend/girlfriend". Even the two of them get pulled into the drama even though mostly they just want to talk and run around like a couple of maniacs. Even in our reminders that they are NOT boy/girlfriend and that the idea is ridiculous ;) at 9 years old, I feel like we can draw more attention to it all than necessary. Ugh.... what a crazy world.

[Quickbeam]

If you (general you) are trying to stop your teenage boy from masturbating, look to yourselves for the source of sexual trauma in his life. Leave the girls and their prom dresses right out of it. And seek help for yourself, because DANG.

 

I find this assertion pretty condescending, and I'd encourage you to rethink it. There are age-old traditions that teach that masturbation is problematic because it leads to selfishness in the marital union, which ought to be an act of self-giving. Now, you may not agree with this tradition, but rudely dismissing it is akin to someone rudely dismissing a halacha because it doesn't fit with their modern understanding.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Quickbeam
might as well make my tenses agree....

[asta]

I find this assertion pretty condescending, and I'd encourage you to rethink it. There are age-old traditions that teach that masturbation is problematic because it leads to selfishness in the marital union, which ought to be an act of self-giving. Now, you may not agree with this tradition, but rudely dismissing it is akin to someone rudely dismissing a halacha because it doesn't fit with their modern understanding.

 

Not a whole lot of 14-17 year old married guys running around...

 

 

a

[Quickbeam]

Not a whole lot of 14-17 year old married guys running around...

 

;)

 

The idea is that habitual focus on self-gratification (which can become an issue for some young people), leads to problems of selfishness when/if they do get married. I'm merely echoing the constant teaching of my Church, summed up here (just FYI; there are other spiritual traditions that offer a similar perspective):

 

"2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138

 

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability."

 

I bring it up because self-restraint and modesty seem to go together. My experience is that most people haven't even considered the value of choosing not to masturbate. Why not expand our thinking on the issue?

 

As for how we talk to our children about these things, I certainly do not advocate shaming of any kind. I do think the topic is a jumping off point for a discussion of what our family believes about sex and family.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Quickbeam