I hate fuddy duddy homeschooler rules

[TravelingChris]

I totally agree Cyndi. That is part of what is getting me so upset. We are responsible for our own actions.

 

In terms of why I think it has to do with Christianity, it is because it has a Bible quotation and says that Young Christian women should not be a stumbling block to young men.

 

My oldest is 21 this week and I have had years of seeing teens at various functions. Only on very few occasions have I seen anyone wear clothing that I consider to be a stumbling block just by the clothing. Mostly it is the wearer acting in a certain way that is the stumbling block.

 

Looking at the guidelines, I am confused anyway. What does no shoulders actually mean? SO if she did wear her Chinese type outfit that is sleeveless, does that violate this code?

 

Then there is another part about see-through shawls. None of those either. I don't know what that means except if they are referring to crocheted or knitted shawls that have holes in them.

 

Thanks for the suggestion about the shawl wear. I never have a problem so didn't really get what dd's having problems with keeping it on but she apparently does have a problem so I will try this with her.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I

In terms of why I think it has to do with Christianity, it is because it has a Bible quotation and says that Young Christian women should not be a stumbling block to young men.

 

 

 

While I agree with the Bible on modesty, I do agree that making other families conform to your application of the Bible is legalism.

 

Once this prom is over, are you going to want to keep meeting with the group? (Just curious).

[Smithie]

"A girl who's looking for that kind of attention will get it if she's wearing a potato sack. A "nice" girl wearing spaghetti straps sends off a totally different vibe."

 

... and the world's nicest girl in the world's frumpiest prairie dress may still find herself harassed, humiliated or even assaulted, day or night, prom or Sunday School, alone or in a crowd, because what she is wearing and how she is acting actually has NOTHING TO DO with how the boys and men around here have been brought up to behave, and what their parents, their schools, their religious communities and society in general has decided to tolerate from them.

 

My children dress very modestly (well, the baby is crawling around in just a diaper right now, but you get the point). We'd easily be able to adhere to a dress code for dances, water park trips etc. However, I refuse to attend any homeschooling event where a dress code is specified, because that tells me that the organizing group is focused on externally trumpeting their righteousness rather than internally cultivating it. I consider that kind of behavior to be a poor example for my children - far more so than a skimpy swimsuit. To paraphrase C. S. Lewis, give me the fleshly sin of lust over the spiritual sin of pride any day.

 

Basically all homeschooling events around here are run by Protestant Christians. I have no problem with that, but I do get a little impatient when dealing with Christians who have somehow interpreted their holy scripture as giving them license to 1) segregate themselves from the world at large or 2) prioritize physical markers of holiness. Coming from a tradition that DID historically enforce social segregation via dietary laws and DOES continue to struggle with a hyperfocus on legalistic frameworks and outward markers of observance, it seems amazing to me that anybody would want to cultivate that in Christianity. Jesus certainly did not think highly of that kind of religious practice. I just don't get it.

[TravelingChris]

I probably will since most of the time, the rules are not strict at all. On the other hand, I think we may go to a different formal event next year. This is my daughter with social anxiety problems. I really don't need this extra stress.

 

It really isn't the strapless or spaghetti straps without a shawl that gets me going. It is the whole thing wrapped up together including the assertion that by wearing a sundress, she would be a stumbling block or by wearing a fully covered up shoulders dress that ends an inch or so above the knee she is doing that too.

 

As it is, nothing except the Chinese Dress (if sleeveless doesn't equate with bare shoulders) or one of her Indian Outfits works without adjustment.

 

By the way, buying a bolero in a very small size is not easy work. It took us seven or eight stores before we found one that fit and it doesn't look right with either of the dresses she is thinking of wearing. So I think we have to go with one of the non see through shawls, whatever that is.

[Mejane]

... and the world's nicest girl in the world's frumpiest prairie dress may still find herself harassed, humiliated or even assaulted, day or night, prom or Sunday School, alone or in a crowd, because what she is wearing and how she is acting actually has NOTHING TO DO with how the boys and men around here have been brought up to behave, and what their parents, their schools, their religious communities and society in general has decided to tolerate from them.

 

 

 

Absolutely. No woman "deserves" to be assaulted; I don't care if she's walking down the street nekkid.

[Heather in VA]

That kind of stuff drives me nuts too. The groups we've been involved with in the past have been very much like this as well. Basically telling the girls it's all on them - dress wrong (by their definition) and you are a stumbling block. Boys have no responsibility for being "visual'. It's just the way they are. To me this is not only annoying and a double standard but it's also a very dangerous message to give our girls. What happens to girls who are indoctrinated in this idea when they grow up? What if they are raped some day? They'll be trained to believe it must have been their fault. Its hard enough to recover from a violation like that without the added guilt of being taught it's their responsiblity to keep the guys away. What if they meet some man at their job who becomes attracted to them and starts stalking her? That can happen from something as simple as a smile and a 'hi'. She'll buy into the idea that she deserves it because it must be something she wore.

 

I will not raise my girls to believe they are responsible for the inappropriate actions of boys/men.

 

Heather

[ConnieB]

Yes, opinions are all different....so you say *tasteful, classy and modest* and then you privately deal with the ones who translate that as trampy.....NOT make restrictive rules for the whole group. :)

 

Just my .02

 

Ok, so how would you propose they do that? Say someone shows up at this prom in something that would make Pamela Sue Anderson blush.....but SHE thinks it's tasteful, classy and modest. You'd end up with a big scene, threats from the parents to sue for the costs incurred for the prom that they now are banning her from and so on.

 

The entire reason we have to have rules for ANYTHING is because people have different opinions and different ways they want to do things.

 

Think of this forum.....back in the day when it was that other format, there were very few rules...mostly the "be nice" variety. But things started getting ugly....politics, religion, homeschool vs unschool, and even which curriculum is better can turn normally friendly people into flaming screaming lunatics (ok, a slight exaggeration). But sooo many threads on this forum start out nice and then turn ugly...some quickly, some slowly, but they end up having to be deleted because someone broke the rules. Without them, most of us wouldn't want to be around these forums as they'd go...well, places I don't want to even think about.

 

This thread has the potential to turn ugly too.....there are clearly two camps (or more) at play here...those that don't think there should be specific rules about the dress code, and those that feel it's the only way to ensure that tramps stay home, lol.

 

I'd love to live a life like my great (or great great) parents did when everyone had pretty nearly the same standards...and those that strayed were frowned on by society enough to come back into the fold. Yeah, a little stepford like, but at least we didn't have knock down drag out arguments over decency in teenage clothing. Of course, judging by what is for sale in the stores....and what my family can't find in the stores, I'm apparently on the wrong side of this debate. We end up making our own clothing a lot of the time because we can't find things we deem appropriate for our teen. Just finding a pair of blue jeans that are at her waist not her hips is getting harder and harder.....and when we do find it they are plain and ugly. Whereas the beautiful embroidered ones are below the hips most times, and so no ok for us. But considering how many wear them, we're obviously a minority. I'd love a "rule" saying I don't want to see your hip bones over the top of your jeans...and no crack in the back ever! But there are those on this board that will fight to the death their right to show me those body parts, lol.

 

Ain't America great.

[Heather in VA]

Absolutely. No woman "deserves" to be assaulted; I don't care if she's walking down the street nekkid.

 

You posted the same time as I did. I completely agree they don't deserve it... but teaching them these kinds of rules will make them think they do.

 

Heather

[KnitWit]

 

I will not raise my girls to believe they are responsible for the inappropriate actions of boys/men.

 

Heather

 

:iagree:

[KnitWit]

Ok, so how would you propose they do that? Say someone shows up at this prom in something that would make Pamela Sue Anderson blush.....but SHE thinks it's tasteful, classy and modest. You'd end up with a big scene, threats from the parents to sue for the costs incurred for the prom that they now are banning her from and so on.

 

The entire reason we have to have rules for ANYTHING is because people have different opinions and different ways they want to do things.

 

Think of this forum.....back in the day when it was that other format, there were very few rules...mostly the "be nice" variety. But things started getting ugly....politics, religion, homeschool vs unschool, and even which curriculum is better can turn normally friendly people into flaming screaming lunatics (ok, a slight exaggeration). But sooo many threads on this forum start out nice and then turn ugly...some quickly, some slowly, but they end up having to be deleted because someone broke the rules. Without them, most of us wouldn't want to be around these forums as they'd go...well, places I don't want to even think about.

 

This thread has the potential to turn ugly too.....there are clearly two camps (or more) at play here...those that don't think there should be specific rules about the dress code, and those that feel it's the only way to ensure that tramps stay home, lol.

 

I'd love to live a life like my great (or great great) parents did when everyone had pretty nearly the same standards...and those that strayed were frowned on by society enough to come back into the fold. Yeah, a little stepford like, but at least we didn't have knock down drag out arguments over decency in teenage clothing. Of course, judging by what is for sale in the stores....and what my family can't find in the stores, I'm apparently on the wrong side of this debate. We end up making our own clothing a lot of the time because we can't find things we deem appropriate for our teen. Just finding a pair of blue jeans that are at her waist not her hips is getting harder and harder.....and when we do find it they are plain and ugly. Whereas the beautiful embroidered ones are below the hips most times, and so no ok for us. But considering how many wear them, we're obviously a minority. I'd love a "rule" saying I don't want to see your hip bones over the top of your jeans...and no crack in the back ever! But there are those on this board that will fight to the death their right to show me those body parts, lol.

 

Ain't America great.

 

If it would make Pam Anderson blush, then the case can definitely be made that the guidelines weren't followed. Give the girl a wrap! LOL!

 

Seriously, I agree, it'd be great to live *back in the day*....but we don't.

 

I do see your point that in some groups the clothing might get out of hand without hyper-defining things. My point of reference is my *real life* experience with MOSTLY good and modest kids who are being hyper-judged and scrutinized for no reason really. Even amongst *conservatives* the line is willy nilly on what is *right*. That is what I am speaking to :)

[Heather in VA]

Ok, so how would you propose they do that? Say someone shows up at this prom in something that would make Pamela Sue Anderson blush.....but SHE thinks it's tasteful, classy and modest.

 

Well from what I can tell this is a Christian homeschool group event - not an open event for anyone. So the organizers are not giving any respect to the parents and their application of their Christian beliefs to choose something appropriate. They are saying they know best and don't trust the Christian members of their group to choose appropriately with their children. Are there Christians who dress inappropriately - of course. But to make blanket rules that usurp the roll of the parent - when obviously in the case the parent is comfortable with her choice - is the opposite of what a Christian homeschool group should be about.

 

Heather

[InHisGrip]

..I refuse to attend any homeschooling event where a dress code is specified, because that tells me that the organizing group is focused on externally trumpeting their righteousness rather than internally cultivating it. I consider that kind of behavior to be a poor example for my children - far more so than a skimpy swimsuit. To paraphrase C. S. Lewis, give me the fleshly sin of lust over the spiritual sin of pride any day.

 

Basically all homeschooling events around here are run by Protestant Christians. I have no problem with that, but I do get a little impatient when dealing with Christians who have somehow interpreted their holy scripture as giving them license to 1) segregate themselves from the world at large or 2) prioritize physical markers of holiness. Coming from a tradition that DID historically enforce social segregation via dietary laws and DOES continue to struggle with a hyperfocus on legalistic frameworks and outward markers of observance, it seems amazing to me that anybody would want to cultivate that in Christianity. Jesus certainly did not think highly of that kind of religious practice. I just don't get it.

 

LOVE this post - I have similar strong feelings on this subject (and other legalistic stuff like Christians being judged for drinking alcoholic beverages, etc.). Really like the quote by C.S. Lewis and your last two sentences.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well from what I can tell this is a Christian homeschool group event - not an open event for anyone. So the organizers are not giving any respect to the parents and their application of their Christian beliefs to choose something appropriate. They are saying they know best and don't trust the Christian members of their group to choose appropriately with their children. Are there Christians who dress inappropriately - of course. But to make blanket rules that usurp the roll of the parent - when obviously in the case the parent is comfortable with her choice - is the opposite of what a Christian homeschool group should be about.

 

Heather

 

I totally agree with this.

[AHASRADA]

I hesitate to post on a topic that can be so divisive, but I would like to put forth the suggestion that there can be a balance, between the "girls should be modest to help guys behave" and "wear what you want, it's the guys' problem if they don't behave" camps.

 

How about, girls dress in a way that displays their self-respect, gives the impression that they want to be judged on their personality rather than their physical features, and if they don't want others to focus on their bodies, don't flaunt it.

 

If a girl's dress, or actions, are attractive, it is the guy's responsibility to look the other way. But if a girl truly does not want to attract their attention, then her manner of dress should reflect that.

 

A scantily-clad girl certainly does not "deserve" to be attacked, and "no" most definitely means "no", but it is also a bit ridiculous for her to flaunt her charms, and blame guys for judging her intentions based on her dress.

 

BTW, am I the only one who finds it a bit odd to be discussing appropriate dress, dress that will not arouse feelings in members of the opposite gender, at a MIXED DANCE?! I would be as concerned with the context of the event, the lighting, the dance moves being displayed, as anyone's dress.

 

I vote for the girls' only dance previously mentioned by another poster. All problems solved. But, that's just me ;)

[KnitWit]

Well from what I can tell this is a Christian homeschool group event - not an open event for anyone. So the organizers are not giving any respect to the parents and their application of their Christian beliefs to choose something appropriate. They are saying they know best and don't trust the Christian members of their group to choose appropriately with their children. Are there Christians who dress inappropriately - of course. But to make blanket rules that usurp the roll of the parent - when obviously in the case the parent is comfortable with her choice - is the opposite of what a Christian homeschool group should be about.

 

Heather

 

Yes! Thank you Heather! I agree!

 

And....LOVE that CS Lewis quote Smithie!

[KnitWit]

I hesitate to post on a topic that can be so divisive, but I would like to put forth the suggestion that there can be a balance, between the "girls should be modest to help guys behave" and "wear what you want, it's the guys' problem if they don't behave" camps.

 

How about, girls dress in a way that displays their self-respect, gives the impression that they want to be judged on their personality rather than their physical features, and if they don't want others to focus on their bodies, don't flaunt it.

 

If a girl's dress, or actions, are attractive, it is the guy's responsibility to look the other way. But if a girl truly does not want to attract their attention, then her manner of dress should reflect that.

 

A scantily-clad girl certainly does not "deserve" to be attacked, and "no" most definitely means "no", but it is also a bit ridiculous for her to flaunt her charms, and blame guys for judging her intentions based on her dress.

 

BTW, am I the only one who finds it a bit odd to be discussing appropriate dress, dress that will not arouse feelings in members of the opposite gender, at a MIXED DANCE?! I would be as concerned with the context of the event, the lighting, the dance moves being displayed, as anyone's dress.

 

I vote for the girls' only dance previously mentioned by another poster. All problems solved. But, that's just me ;)

 

good post

[Mrs Mungo]

A scantily-clad girl certainly does not "deserve" to be attacked, and "no" most definitely means "no", but it is also a bit ridiculous for her to flaunt her charms, and blame guys for judging her intentions based on her dress.

 

This is classic blame-the-victim mentality. A woman has no "intentions" of getting raped, no matter what she wears. Men in more conservative countries would probably say the *exact same thing* about what *you* wear on a daily basis.

 

Article about British nationals being raped in Egypt for this exact reason.

 

Ghada Habbashi of the British Embassy’s media office said that the warning is not new, and has been issued, without changes or additions, for few years.

“In 2007 Egypt was one of the countries with the highest number of cases reported to our Consular staff of British nationals who were the victim of a sexual offence. Half a dozen of the cases reported to our Consular staff involved children under the age of 18,” the Embassy said.

 

Eight cases of rape and sexual assault involving British nationals in Egypt were reported to the embassy this year; 24 in 2007, 11 in 2006, 18 in 2005 and seven in 2004.

 

Radi held the ministry responsible for this situation but also suggested that tourists should “abide by the Egyptian dress code.”

 

“I’m asking them to abide by traditions. Women should dress modestly because there is a big sector of youth who passed the marriage age, and therefore, some form of harassment is possible,” he said.

 

In general, tourists are advised to “dress modestly” covering their legs and upper arms because the Egyptian society is “conservative and predominantly Muslim.”

[Mrs Mungo]

Looking at the guidelines, I am confused anyway. What does no shoulders actually mean? SO if she did wear her Chinese type outfit that is sleeveless, does that violate this code?

 

Is there an email list for this group? Maybe ask for clarification to the group, I'm sure there are others who are confused. If not an email list, is there an organizer you can call?

 

Then there is another part about see-through shawls. None of those either. I don't know what that means except if they are referring to crocheted or knitted shawls that have holes in them.

 

I would guess they mean those little shawls that are nothing more than a yard of tulle.

[KnitWit]

Well, I liked her post and agreed because my point of reference while reading was a couple of girls I know *irl* who are *teases*...both in dress and in behavior.

 

No, most certainly means NO. And, I'd never say any girl asks for, or deserves, to be raped...but some girls are....stupid. I don't know how else to put it. Purposefully playing with fire. I told one of them that one day she is going to tease the wrong guy. She doesn't believe it. She thinks she is *always* in control.

 

It was this kind of girl I was thinking of when I read Ahasrada's post...

[Guest Katia]

Well from what I can tell this is a Christian homeschool group event - not an open event for anyone. So the organizers are not giving any respect to the parents and their application of their Christian beliefs to choose something appropriate. They are saying they know best and don't trust the Christian members of their group to choose appropriately with their children. Are there Christians who dress inappropriately - of course. But to make blanket rules that usurp the roll of the parent - when obviously in the case the parent is comfortable with her choice - is the opposite of what a Christian homeschool group should be about.

 

Heather

 

Thank you. This is an excellent post; well thought out and well worded. I agree whole-heartedly.

 

However, our experience with Conservative Christian homeschool groups has been that no matter if the parent thinks it's appropriate dress/behavior/etc. from their children, there is always, ALWAYS people that will complain loud and long about how inappropriate your family is because your standards are not their standards. There is NO ONE willing to simply say to themselves (or privately to their families), "well, that is not what we believe/wear/say in our family, but Christ leads each family in different ways".

 

Why must Christians always feel justified in complaining about others? It sickens me.

[AHASRADA]

Mrs. Mungo, this is exactly why I hesitated to reply. I knew that, no matter how hard I tried to make my point, it would somehow be misconstrued.

 

I do not condone any type of molestation of women based on their dress, as depicted in the article you quoted. The men in the conservative country in question have no defense for their criminal actions.

 

At the same time, it is understandable if they assume that these women might be "looking for a good time" while on vacation, that they may be a bit "easier" than the girls in their neighborhood (based on their dress and watching Western TV and movies), and thus cannot be blamed for flirting or making advances (up to a point!) As members of a conservative culture, the men should have looked the other way, and perhaps the tourists could make more of an effort to blend into the culture they are visiting.

 

Briefly, dress should not and cannot be used as a defense for vile, criminal behavior, and this was not my point. My point was that, if a girl does not want boys to judge her based on her physical attributes, make judgements about her character based on her dress, and therefore give her a type of attention she is not interested in, should should dress accordingly.

 

I have no interest in a debate, and hope I have made myself clearer this time, FWIW.

[Mrs Mungo]

Well, I liked her post and agreed because my point of reference while reading was a couple of girls I know *irl* who are *teases*...both in dress and in behavior.

 

No, most certainly means NO. And, I'd never say any girl asks for, or deserves, to be raped...but some girls are....stupid. I don't know how else to put it. Purposefully playing with fire. I told one of them that one day she is going to tease the wrong guy. She doesn't believe it. She thinks she is *always* in control.

 

It was this kind of girl I was thinking of when I read Ahasrada's post...

 

I agree that there are some girls who play with fire. In fact, I know some adult women who play with fire in this manner. However, in my experience that has everything to do with their *behavior* and *nothing* to do with how they dress. You can behave in a chaste manner in a strapless dress. You can behave in a non-chaste manner in a denim jumper.

[KnitWit]

You can behave in a chaste manner in a strapless dress. You can behave in a non-chaste manner in a denim jumper.

Wholeheartedly agree

[tex-mex]

Chris, our girls are encouraged to wear a small cropped jacket/bolero.

 

Great idea!

[Miss Marple]

when obviously in the case the parent is comfortable with her choice

 

In my experience as a leader in our cooperative for the past 8 years, I can say with certainty that many, many parents don't want to address the issue of modest dress with their daughters and instead desire for the co-op to establish "standards" so they don't have to be the "bad guy". There are some moms who just don't want to do the job. That is unfortunate...but it has been the reality around here. Just because a co-op is Christian doesn't mean that all have the same values or sensibilities.

 

So the organizers are not giving any respect to the parents and their application of their Christian beliefs to choose something appropriate

 

We have tried to respect this, but there were incidents where the results were appalling. "Christian" beliefs vary too widely. Why would rules regarding dress be a lack of respect? Would you conclude the same about rules regarding conduct?

 

Public and private schools and clubs have dress codes (standards) for many reasons. But I've never heard of a dress code being used to usurp a parent's authority or to promote a level of righteousness (as another poster stated). It's about uniformity - so no one will feel badly. The Apostle Paul said he would abstain from eating meat offered to idols if it caused another brother to stumble. I think erring on the more "conservative" side is the kinder way.

 

Our co-op has sent surveys out to the families in order to get their input about dress/behavior codes. We have used that information to develop the "best" code we can for our group. But there is always someone who won't be happy - because it is someone else's standard. But that's life - someone has to make the rules :-)

[OnTheBrink]

I have to say that I hate fuddy duddy homeschool rules. Dd is petite, pretty, and modest. I can't see what is wrong with her wearing a beautiful ballgown that is not low cut at all but has spaghetti straps. This is my very self-conscious girl and she has been wearing gowns that require strapless bras for the last three years. She knows how to wear it. She looks fabulous in it but not at all provacative. The rules are so stringent (no spaghetti straps, no strapless, no backless, nothing above the knees, etc. etc.. How about just saying tasteful and classy? Looking at the pictures from this party last year, I can see that many girls put on what seemed to be their mother's dresses from 20+ years ago. Uggh!! My girls never wear trampy clothes. I don't need to stop them. However, my older dd has a close to perfection body and unless I put her in a burka, boys will notice. So far it hasn't been any problem since she takes after me and has a killer look if someone bothers her (she wouldn't use it on a polite interest but has used it on rude comments from people).

 

 

 

For me, it's not a hill I'd want to die on. If my dd had dresses deemed inappropriate by the PTB at a specific event, I'd either get her a wrap or bolero, make the best of it and wish her a good time. It's a one-time event, and, imo, not worth getting my dander up. It would have been nice had you known the rules before buying the dress, but you didn't, so I'd just make the best of it and not allow this annoyance to color this in a negative way for your dd.

 

As a person who had a mother who made a federal case out of everything she was displeased over (NOT saying you're doing that, just giving you some background and a different perspective), I'd rather look back on something as "that fun spring dance" instead of "that dance Mom made a scene over."

[justamouse]

"A girl who's looking for that kind of attention will get it if she's wearing a potato sack. A "nice" girl wearing spaghetti straps sends off a totally different vibe."

 

... and the world's nicest girl in the world's frumpiest prairie dress may still find herself harassed, humiliated or even assaulted, day or night, prom or Sunday School, alone or in a crowd, because what she is wearing and how she is acting actually has NOTHING TO DO with how the boys and men around here have been brought up to behave, and what their parents, their schools, their religious communities and society in general has decided to tolerate from them.

 

My children dress very modestly (well, the baby is crawling around in just a diaper right now, but you get the point). We'd easily be able to adhere to a dress code for dances, water park trips etc. However, I refuse to attend any homeschooling event where a dress code is specified, because that tells me that the organizing group is focused on externally trumpeting their righteousness rather than internally cultivating it. I consider that kind of behavior to be a poor example for my children - far more so than a skimpy swimsuit. To paraphrase C. S. Lewis, give me the fleshly sin of lust over the spiritual sin of pride any day.

 

Basically all homeschooling events around here are run by Protestant Christians. I have no problem with that, but I do get a little impatient when dealing with Christians who have somehow interpreted their holy scripture as giving them license to 1) segregate themselves from the world at large or 2) prioritize physical markers of holiness. Coming from a tradition that DID historically enforce social segregation via dietary laws and DOES continue to struggle with a hyperfocus on legalistic frameworks and outward markers of observance, it seems amazing to me that anybody would want to cultivate that in Christianity. Jesus certainly did not think highly of that kind of religious practice. I just don't get it.

 

Clearly you need to post around these here parts more often.

 

To me this is not only annoying and a double standard but it's also a very dangerous message to give our girls. What happens to girls who are indoctrinated in this idea when they grow up? What if they are raped some day? They'll be trained to believe it must have been their fault. Its hard enough to recover from a violation like that without the added guilt of being taught it's their responsiblity to keep the guys away. What if they meet some man at their job who becomes attracted to them and starts stalking her? That can happen from something as simple as a smile and a 'hi'. She'll buy into the idea that she deserves it because it must be something she wore.

 

I will not raise my girls to believe they are responsible for the inappropriate actions of boys/men.

 

Heather

 

Amen.

 

Great article, Mrs. Mungo.

[KnitWit]

Well, I'm one of the moms of boys who can't believe what some mothers let their daughters wear. The girls are just reflecting society and their peers, but I expect the mothers (and fathers) to hold the line.

 

The amount of voluptuous cleavage, exposed thong underwear, and short/tight clothes worn by the teen girls at our church while wearing *cute* outfits is appalling! Let alone in society by women of all ages. I. am. sick. of. it. My sons and husband are bombarded with way more than they want to see.

 

Are you trying to say that you can't find a pretty dress to wear that isn't offensive and immodest in the eyes of those around you? America's standard is to *undress* girls/women as much, and as soon as possible. Resisting this it is not being a *fuddy duddy.*

 

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

I don't think what you have described is what the OP is referring to at all!

[Heather in VA]

 

 

 

We have tried to respect this, but there were incidents where the results were appalling. "Christian" beliefs vary too widely. Why would rules regarding dress be a lack of respect?

 

 

Because it's a homeschool group. Every homeschool group I've ever been a part of has a big section in it's "handbook" that talks about how the ultimate teacher is still the parent. They are the final word etc... but then apparently these same parents aren't allowed to decide how to dress their kids. I don't have a problem with something that says 'modest dress' but to define down to the letter what that is - that's imposing your views over the parent. And believe me - this compromise that is being asked is NEVER made by those who think kids should be covered from head to toe. They expect everyone to work around everything that offends them but they never seem able to acknowledge that others make different choices.

 

Heather

[Miss Marple]

The amount of voluptuous cleavage, exposed thong underwear, and short/tight clothes worn by the teen girls at our church while wearing *cute* outfits is appalling!

 

Right there with you! And it's not only the teen girls - it's their mamas!

 

I think society has become very relaxed regarding appropriate attire for situations. What used to be deemed acceptable for a night on the town is now acceptable in worship service at church!

[OnTheBrink]

Well, I'm one of the moms of boys who can't believe what some mothers let their daughters wear. The girls are just reflecting society and their peers, but I expect the mothers (and fathers) to hold the line.

 

The amount of voluptuous cleavage, exposed thong underwear, and short/tight clothes worn by the teen girls at our church while wearing *cute* outfits is appalling! Let alone in society by women of all ages. I. am. sick. of. it. My sons and husband are bombarded with way more than they want to see.

 

Are you trying to say that you can't find a pretty dress to wear that isn't offensive and immodest in the eyes of those around you? America's standard is to *undress* girls/women as much, and as soon as possible. Resisting this it is not being a *fuddy duddy.*

 

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

I was reading a book the other day that talked about how people don't reflect society; society reflects people. Meaning, our society and culture aren't what creates people, it's the other way around.

 

That doesn't really have much to do with the thread, but your post made me think of that, so I thought I'd share. :001_smile:

[Heather in VA]

Well, I'm one of the moms of boys who can't believe what some mothers let their daughters wear. The girls are just reflecting society and their peers, but I expect the mothers (and fathers) to hold the line.

 

The amount of voluptuous cleavage, exposed thong underwear, and short/tight clothes worn by the teen girls at our church while wearing *cute* outfits is appalling! Let alone in society by women of all ages. I. am. sick. of. it. My sons and husband are bombarded with way more than they want to see.

 

Are you trying to say that you can't find a pretty dress to wear that isn't offensive and immodest in the eyes of those around you? America's standard is to *undress* girls/women as much, and as soon as possible. Resisting this it is not being a *fuddy duddy.*

 

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

Did you read the original post? I don't see anything of the sort in her description of her daughter's dress.

 

Heather

[Laurie4b]

I"m sorry that your dd is disappointed. Public & private high schools have similar rules. I agree that some strapless dresses can be very classy and modest. However, a lot of those same dresses show a lot of boob. I think the rules are an effort to be objective so that everyone knows what to expect ahead of time.

 

From a Christian standpoint, I think modesty tends to be understood too narrowly. The heart of modesty is not to call attention to oneself, but to glorify God. You can call attention to yourself by dressing very expensively (which is one thing the Bible is explicit about and rarely gets mentioned.) You can call attention to yourself in other ways. If the focal point (from an artistic standpoint) of what a girl is wearing is her breasts, guys do take the message in. If a woman attracts a mate by calling attention to her body, then she's on rather insecure ground as she ages and other younger women's bodies look better by comparison. (don't know many women whose bods post-baby look as culturally good as pre-baby.) I think God is glorified by the wonderful variety of his creation, so when a girl chooses to communicate who she is by her clothing, that is a way of glorifying God. An artsy girl may choose unusual and creative combinations. Another young woman may choose "classical and sharp." Still another may really like a really soft look. That's kind of a side note, but like I said, I think modesty gets defined too narrowly and leaves out the positive goal of clothing choices.

[Miss Marple]

So do you have the same issue regarding a co-op making rules of conduct?

 

We stress the same idea of the parent being the ultimate teacher. But that has nothing to do with the conduct of the co-op. It stems from the idea some parents have of dropping the student off one day per week and expecting to do NOTHING with said student during the week. We are trying to keep the parent responsible to see that the student does the school work.

 

Any time a group comes together for a common cause (be it the establishment of a civilization or a club) some rights are given up in order to obtain other advantages. A co-op works the same way. As Christians we set aside some of our perceived "rights" for the sake of the group as a whole.

[Miss Marple]

I think she is replying to some of the side conversations that are going on through this thread rather than the original post.

[Miss Marple]

From a Christian standpoint, I think modesty tends to be understood too narrowly. The heart of modesty is not to call attention to oneself, but to glorify God.

 

Nicely put.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

This is classic blame-the-victim mentality. A woman has no "intentions" of getting raped, no matter what she wears. Men in more conservative countries would probably say the *exact same thing* about what *you* wear on a daily basis.

 

 

 

:iagree:

I like modest dress as well and really think that strapless and strap dresses can be worn tastefully:)

 

Some of the other posters seem to be saying IMHO that a woman should be covered from head to toe or from neck to toe so as not to invite unwanted attention and I disagree. Gee are men like wild beasts unable to control themselves if they see an arm or a knee? I realize that there are some people who do bad things, but I think men should be given more credit than they are given and also raised to see women as equal human and spiritual beings IMHO. I hope to see burquas and other total body coverings banned IMHO since I think this treats women as lesser beings and also treats men as wild animals who are unable to control themselves IMHO:(.

 

OTOH, I also do not like to see men or women dressed in such a way that they are practically naked;) I do respect modesty:) I also think that sometimes dress rules are taken too far:)

 

My 2 cents:)

[Miss Marple]

I just think that I am fortunate that my teen wants to wear nice gowns and nice jewelry versus putting on dog collars (as another girl in the co-op does), having wild unkempt hair and a bad attitude (a boy in the same co-op), or paying more attention to her looks than her schoolwork (a few kids at least at this same co-op).

 

Sounds like you have a sweet young lady. I hope you can come up with something so that she can attend and feel good about her dress.

 

They say they do this to not have the guys sin.

 

That just seems weird in light of the fact that they are holding a DANCE! Do the girls get to dance with the boys? Odd question, but I have known some groups where the boys could only dance with other boys or siblings and girls could only dance with other girls.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I would have to real her post again, but I believe that it stated that she was annoyed that her dd could not wear a dress with spaghetti straps, or was strapless to a homeschool function....that she didn't see anything wrong with those kinds of dresses. She seems annoyed with*fuddy duddy* dress standards.

 

I'm saying that the standards are there because there seems to be waaaay too many girls and women who think that their way of dressing is just fine, but is incredibly revealing to others.

 

I believe that strapless dresses can be worn tastefully. Look at all of the beautiful dresses worn in the 1940s:)

[LisaKinVA]

Hmm... all I can say regarding girls "helping" men avoid immodest thoughts, by the way they dress is that I got "hit on" more often as a teen/young woman wearing...... wait for it....

 

A McDonald's Uniform.

 

Yeah, those things are sooo sexy. And the smell of fryer grease to boot.

 

A man can be distracted by eyes, a pretty face, etc. Sure, having BooKs staring them in the face is one thing, or wearing Daisy Dukes......but guys can be distracted by *anything* if they want to.

[novagirl]

 

 

 

That just seems weird in light of the fact that they are holding a DANCE! Do the girls get to dance with the boys? Odd question, but I have known some groups where the boys could only dance with other boys or siblings and girls could only dance with other girls.

 

You're right! Hmm- lets see- turning the lights down just a bit, add some music and a female body swaying right next to them---NAAH, that wouldn't tempt any guy to think "sinful" thoughts at all!:lol::lol::lol:

[KnitWit]

Hmm... all I can say regarding girls "helping" men avoid immodest thoughts, by the way they dress is that I got "hit on" more often as a teen/young woman wearing...... wait for it....

 

A McDonald's Uniform.

 

Yeah, those things are sooo sexy. And the smell of fryer grease to boot.

 

A man can be distracted by eyes, a pretty face, etc. Sure, having BooKs staring them in the face is one thing, or wearing Daisy Dukes......but guys can be distracted by *anything* if they want to.

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: got that *hungry* look huh? LOL!

 

I agree....I think some guys are looking for it.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

"A girl who's looking for that kind of attention will get it if she's wearing a potato sack. A "nice" girl wearing spaghetti straps sends off a totally different vibe."

 

... and the world's nicest girl in the world's frumpiest prairie dress may still find herself harassed, humiliated or even assaulted, day or night, prom or Sunday School, alone or in a crowd, because what she is wearing and how she is acting actually has NOTHING TO DO with how the boys and men around here have been brought up to behave, and what their parents, their schools, their religious communities and society in general has decided to tolerate from them.

 

My children dress very modestly (well, the baby is crawling around in just a diaper right now, but you get the point). We'd easily be able to adhere to a dress code for dances, water park trips etc. However, I refuse to attend any homeschooling event where a dress code is specified, because that tells me that the organizing group is focused on externally trumpeting their righteousness rather than internally cultivating it. I consider that kind of behavior to be a poor example for my children - far more so than a skimpy swimsuit. To paraphrase C. S. Lewis, give me the fleshly sin of lust over the spiritual sin of pride any day.

 

Basically all homeschooling events around here are run by Protestant Christians. I have no problem with that, but I do get a little impatient when dealing with Christians who have somehow interpreted their holy scripture as giving them license to 1) segregate themselves from the world at large or 2) prioritize physical markers of holiness. Coming from a tradition that DID historically enforce social segregation via dietary laws and DOES continue to struggle with a hyperfocus on legalistic frameworks and outward markers of observance, it seems amazing to me that anybody would want to cultivate that in Christianity. Jesus certainly did not think highly of that kind of religious practice. I just don't get it.

 

:iagree:

[Heather in VA]

Hmm... all I can say regarding girls "helping" men avoid immodest thoughts, by the way they dress is that I got "hit on" more often as a teen/young woman wearing...... wait for it....

 

A McDonald's Uniform.

 

Yeah, those things are sooo sexy. And the smell of fryer grease to boot.

 

A man can be distracted by eyes, a pretty face, etc. Sure, having BooKs staring them in the face is one thing, or wearing Daisy Dukes......but guys can be distracted by *anything* if they want to.

 

:lol:

 

This reminds me of a time that a boy was checking out my daughter at a 7-eleven. We stopped there to get a Gatorade. She was in a dark blue t-shirt and sweatpants. She had just come from 4 1/2 hours of gymnastics (competitive gymnastics training). Her hair was stuck to her head with sweat. She smelled BAD. We rarely stopped anywhere between the end of practice and the shower but she was dehydrated. She thought he was disgusted by her - but he was definitely not.

 

Heather

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

That kind of stuff drives me nuts too. The groups we've been involved with in the past have been very much like this as well. Basically telling the girls it's all on them - dress wrong (by their definition) and you are a stumbling block. Boys have no responsibility for being "visual'. It's just the way they are. To me this is not only annoying and a double standard but it's also a very dangerous message to give our girls. What happens to girls who are indoctrinated in this idea when they grow up? What if they are raped some day? They'll be trained to believe it must have been their fault. Its hard enough to recover from a violation like that without the added guilt of being taught it's their responsiblity to keep the guys away. What if they meet some man at their job who becomes attracted to them and starts stalking her? That can happen from something as simple as a smile and a 'hi'. She'll buy into the idea that she deserves it because it must be something she wore.

 

I will not raise my girls to believe they are responsible for the inappropriate actions of boys/men.

 

Heather

Second Amen:)

[novagirl]

Hmm... all I can say regarding girls "helping" men avoid immodest thoughts, by the way they dress is that I got "hit on" more often as a teen/young woman wearing...... wait for it....

 

A McDonald's Uniform.

 

Yeah, those things are sooo sexy. And the smell of fryer grease to boot.

 

A man can be distracted by eyes, a pretty face, etc. Sure, having BooKs staring them in the face is one thing, or wearing Daisy Dukes......but guys can be distracted by *anything* if they want to.

 

Oh my goodness! This reminds me of when I worked at a bakery in a grocery store! I had to wear my hair pulled all back into HAIRNET and a hat with a full apron over my regular clothes. I still had comments and got offers for date made to me by guys who worked in the dairy and MEAT DEPT!!!!:lol:

[Caitilin]

Well from what I can tell this is a Christian homeschool group event - not an open event for anyone. So the organizers are not giving any respect to the parents and their application of their Christian beliefs to choose something appropriate. They are saying they know best and don't trust the Christian members of their group to choose appropriately with their children. Are there Christians who dress inappropriately - of course. But to make blanket rules that usurp the roll of the parent - when obviously in the case the parent is comfortable with her choice - is the opposite of what a Christian homeschool group should be about.

 

Heather

 

 

:iagree:Amen.

[fairfarmhand]

.

 

By the way, buying a bolero in a very small size is not easy work. It took us seven or eight stores before we found one that fit and it doesn't look right with either of the dresses she is thinking of wearing. So I think we have to go with one of the non see through shawls, whatever that is.

 

How about going to the fabric store and finding a length 2-3 yds, maybe of coordinating satin or formal wear fabric (there's tons out there now and many are GORGEOUS) and figuring out an artful drape for the dress. Hemming the ends would be all that would have to be done to it.

[Barb_]

Hmm... all I can say regarding girls "helping" men avoid immodest thoughts, by the way they dress is that I got "hit on" more often as a teen/young woman wearing...... wait for it....

 

A McDonald's Uniform.

 

Yeah, those things are sooo sexy. And the smell of fryer grease to boot.

 

A man can be distracted by eyes, a pretty face, etc. Sure, having BooKs staring them in the face is one thing, or wearing Daisy Dukes......but guys can be distracted by *anything* if they want to.

 

Boys love a girl in uniform :lol:

 

This was mine (but not me, LOL):

[TravelingChris]

To explain this better, it really is not that she can't wear a strapless dress (which she does wear with a bolero jacket) or spaghetti strap dress (which is in fact very like a 1940's dress and shows no cleavage, nothing particularly sexy at all). I am sure I would have lent her a shawl (and a thanks to Mrs. Mungo for an explanation of see-through shawls) or had her wear hers anyway. It was the way this was framed and the whole entire list of rules, one after another. As I said, do you all really think that a cute 1950's style sundress is immodest?

 

My dd does not ever wear risque clothing of any kind. She is a private girl who wears rashguards on top of her swim suits and hardly ever shops in the junior department preferring the misses department either in thrift stores or in better clothes departments so she can get appropriate clothing. She has trouble at times finding clothes since she is 5'4.5 and anywhere from 103-106 lbs. That means she wears tiny sized clothing.

 

First of all, I am not going to be making any scenes at all. SHe will go dressed in that spaghetti gown she bought and I will help her pin a shawl or do the other manuever someone suggested. My question with shawls and see throughness was because we have shawls that we bought overseas and they are certainly not made out of the same material you make clothes but they are not gauze either. I just don't like the policy and it irritates me as it does my daughter. For her, the event is the kind of thing that her psychologist who is working with her on anxiety issues recommends- getting out of her comfort zone. I doubt she will even dance. It would be good if she talked to some people there.

 

They had signups for parents and I didn't sign up. Now I am very happy I didn't.That is what is wrong with these overbearing policies. They don't inspire confidence in shy girls, they encourage sly girls to see how far they can go or how daring they can be within the rules, they teach young females that what they wear is some kind of protective factor against unwelcome behavior. Then they go to college. I hear from many of these parents that the kids are going to schools known for their partying atmosphere. Even reading a book about a Christian college showed that not all is sweetness and love there.