HSLDA and overseas asylum

[fivetails]

And I hope it's overturned honestly

 

Do you really mean that? If it's overturned, I assume that would mean that this family - a family with young kids who probably feel 'safe' in their day-to-day activities for the first time in many years [the articles say that POLICE were showing up at their home and dragging crying kids to school! Imagine what that would do to a kid.] - would be 'sent back'.......

 

I just can't imagine hoping for that....

 

:confused:

[keptwoman]

Do you really mean that? If it's overturned, I assume that would mean that this family - a family with young kids who probably feel 'safe' in their day-to-day activities for the first time in many years [the articles say that POLICE were showing up at their home and dragging crying kids to school! Imagine what that would do to a kid.] - would be 'sent back'.......

 

I just can't imagine hoping for that....

 

:confused:

Well I see it as opening the flood gates for home education asylum seekers who could go live legally without need of asylum in another country, possibly at the expense of women who are in danger of genital mutilation, forced rape, parents whose whole family could be shot, kids who have watch genocide kill their families etc. Colour me not a dyed in the wool homeschooler, because I'd rather those people get asylum. Of course it may not be an either or scenario, and that would be wonderful.

 

Also as a person who has the ability to live in two different countries, if that was me, I'd be sending the kids to school (with false cheer and a forced smile) to minimise distressing situations for the children, like police dragging them away. Then I'd be planning to get the hell out of the country. I'd put the emotional well being of my kids over my convictions about homeschooling. Really, the parents could have made the situation easier and less stressful (while not ideal) for the children and they chose not to. I feel deeply for the children, for the parents... not so much.

Edited March 3, 2010 by keptwoman

[TravelingChris]

"I'm pretty sure they used to require a SOF to join and they do not advocate for you in a specific way unless you are a member."

 

I have been a member for I think 14 or 15 years and never signed a SOF.

 

I am supportive of this decision. I hope it shocks the German government to make changes.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

That's interesting. So is homeschooling legal in France?

So in the EU you can be detained in country A, for a crime in country B, which is not illegal in country A?

Would they be better to send their kids to school in Germany, and then move countries a couple of months later so that they aren't being pursued for their "crime?"

 

I think that it is legal in most of Western Europe, including France. I've only seen one report about the family detained in France. But even some of the cases that received a lot of press coverage in the US, like Melissa Busekeros (sp?) weren't reported much in the German press.

[ConnieB]

I have major problems with all of these things. I think HSLDA is trying really hard to be THE voice of homeschooling in the US when they only represent one segment of the homeschooling population.

 

HSLDA has been doing that for years! I personally believe it's a major part of the reason that there are so many homeschool-haters....because HSLDA's agenda represents a lot of what isn't liked about homeschooling.....and yet the majority of homeschoolers do not share the same agenda. But...we also don't have the money and clout behind us for OUR voice to be heard. This latest action ratchets that up a notch.

[creekland]

I'm personally thrilled with the court decision.

 

:iagree: Me too. I'm in favor of people everywhere having equal rights. And I'm not in favor of the government dictating what those rights can or can't be. I hope the US decision stands, and I don't mind at all if that decision attracts other families from other countries who want to homeschool (regardless of their religion).

 

I don't give a hoot about political ramifications when the politics is about "controlling" people. Doing what is right is more important. No one should have to face jail for how they choose to educate their children short of child abuse - and homeschooling is not child abuse.

[lionfamily1999]

Me too. I'm in favor of people everywhere having equal rights. And I'm not in favor of the government dictating what those rights can or can't be. I hope the US decision stands, and I don't mind at all if that decision attracts other families from other countries who want to homeschool (regardless of their religion).

 

I don't give a hoot about political ramifications when the politics is about "controlling" people. Doing what is right is more important. No one should have to face jail for how they choose to educate their children short of child abuse - and homeschooling is not child abuse.

:iagree: Well said :hurray:

[Peek a Boo]

But as a homeschooler I am regularly pressured to join HSLDA because they are THE voice of homeschooling. The largest homeschooling group here regularly reminds people to join HSLDA, insisting that it is necessary to protect ourselves.

 

As a contrast, I have never, ever had a single person even *suggest* that I join NOW, even in democrat and/or liberal political circles. I also disagree that NOW claims to be the voice of women. They actually claim to be the largest feminist organization in the country. They don't claim to represent every woman's opinion and are not known in Washington as representing every woman's opinion.

 

You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

And I've heard plenty of people suggest that i should join NOW.

 

I have NEVER heard HSLDA say that it speaks for ALL homeschoolers.

I have never heard NOW mention "this bill is important for only the women we happen to represent."

 

In fact, looking at the action alerts here, they don't once remind you to mention that "not all women want this" but to speak for what WOMEN want.

 

in fact, NOW stresses very clearly that they want to

secure abortion, birth control and reproductive rights for all women

 

now I can probably find HSLDA saying similar things [like not specifically pointing out that when they say "homeschoolers" they really mean "only the homeschoolers we represent"]. But if you wanna get up in arms over HSLDA supposedly wanting to be THE VOICE of ALL homeschoolers, you have to apply that same disgust to NOW and other lobbying organizations.

 

You can see it as apples and oranges, but that doesn't make it so.

 

Washington isn't totally stupid-- they understand that not every type of person belongs to a stereotypical group. They DO, however, realize that certain groups can pull ore votes certain ways: THAT's what they are responding to.

[Peek a Boo]

I personally believe it's a major part of the reason that there are so many homeschool-haters....because HSLDA's agenda represents a lot of what isn't liked about homeschooling.....

 

No-- the homeschool haters come directly from the NEA. They consider homeschooling as is currently practiced WRONG.

 

Try reading their yearly Resolutions. skip to B-80.

 

THAT is why we still have organizations like HSLDA and THSC. yeah, "homeschool is legal" all right, but the NEA has resolved to make homeschooling as we know it ILLEGAL.

[at the beach]

If, as a German citizen, they could go to England and homeschool there without incident, then I'm not sure that they needed to come here to avoid persecution. I have a very limited knowledge base of what happened with these folks as I haven't read up on a lot of it, just bits and pieces, but to me, it seems it is religious persecution that they are dealing with in Germany because Germany forbids homeschooling, which they feel is part of them practicing their religion they way God mandates them to. Am I wrong in this? However, Germany apparently affords them an option if they can just move to a nearby country and homeschool. So, I'm just not sure there was a real reason that they then HAD to come here to avoid religious persecution.

 

I am also worried that this might encourage limitation of our rights instead of expansion of them. I think Germany's law is outrageous, but I think other European countries are getting more restrictive rather than less.

[Nicole M]

No-- the homeschool haters come directly from the NEA. They consider homeschooling as is currently practiced WRONG.

 

Try reading their yearly Resolutions. skip to B-80.

 

THAT is why we still have organizations like HSLDA and THSC. yeah, "homeschool is legal" all right, but the NEA has resolved to make homeschooling as we know it ILLEGAL.

 

 

I believe you mean B-81. B-80 concerns Classroom Use of Animals.

 

I don't read anything here that looks like a resolution to make it illegal, but I don't have any legal training. Looks to me like they simply don't support it and would encourage schools to take more responsibility for overseeing home education. Having worked minimally with the local public schools, I see them totally overwhelmed and not in any kind of position to take this on. I just can't bring myself to get my knickers in a twist about this resolution.

 

I personally find HSLDA to be repulsive (as repulsive as Peek finds NOW), and it concerns me that they are seeking out homeschoolers in other countries. I am somewhat suspect of families that would chose, as keptwoman aptly put it, to not put the emotional well-being of their children first.

[Peek a Boo]

What I have to say is that in my opinion they should not have given asylum because they could have chosen a number of European Union countries where homeschooling is legal and where as German citizens they have the right to live and work (and even vote at the local, regional and European level or get a number of various benefits including health care) without any restrictions. Any European Union citizen has the right to live and work in any European Union country, thus there is NO need or basis for this German family to ask for asylum in the US.

 

sure there is.

http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/200811170.asp

Political asylum is available to people already in the United States who fear returning to their home country due to actual persecution or who have a well-founded fear of actual persecution because of their race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group or political opinion. Homeschoolers certainly have a “well-founded fear†of persecution in Germany.

 

Well I see it as opening the flood gates for home education asylum seekers who could go live legally without need of asylum in another country, possibly at the expense of women who are in danger of genital mutilation, forced rape, parents whose whole family could be shot, kids who have watch genocide kill their families etc. Colour me not a dyed in the wool homeschooler, because I'd rather those people get asylum. Of course it may not be an either or scenario, and that would be wonderful.

 

Then I'd be planning to get the hell out of the country.

sounds like they DID plan to get the hell outta thecountry, and to a country they thought would do way more to protect their full freedom to homeschool, and with HELP from a major homeschooling organization.

 

but your other statement has me repeating: what do you mean "at the expense of"? Do you think it is evil to help small matters when larger ones exist, or do you allow that both can be done simultaneously? Do you practice a seriously minimum standard of living and send all your extra money to impoverished countries or to organizations that help women in danger seek asylum? or do you do some nicer things to help the people around you, even if those people aren't "in danger"?

 

According to the U.S. Justice Department’s Executive Office for Immigration Review, nearly 55,000 applications for political asylum were received in 2007 with nearly 13,000 being granted. Last year, according to the report, there were 20 applications from Germany with four granted. The U.S. State Department has noted that homeschooling in Germany is an issue they are watching. In its 2007 Human Rights Watch report on Germany, the State Department writes that “[t]he legal obligation that children attend school and the related prohibition on home schooling were problems for some religious groups.â€

 

 

so let's see..... send kids to public school in Germany after being threatened and harassed and grit my teeth while trying to plan to run to a nearby country where there are still issues, or get lotsa help from a major homeschool organization in America.....

maybe they know a bit more about those neighboring friendly countries than we do.:glare:

 

The really funny thing is that now we have comments on this board against homeschoolers seeking legal asylum here, but absolute support of allowing illegal immigrants to stay, even tho they weren't being forced to undergo the horrors outlined above in Mexico.

[Peek a Boo]

I believe you mean B-81. B-80 concerns Classroom Use of Animals.

sure-- i was looking at 2008-2009. :)

I don't read anything here that looks like a resolution to make it illegal

 

what is the purpose of the resolutions?

To guide lobbying efforts.

If they don't want to fight it, it's not included.

 

and yes, the children's LONG TERM emotional well-being is being considered also. What may appear to be a short term fix to the children's "emotional well-being" may very well be damaging to them in the long term.

[Nicole M]

sure-- i was looking at 2008-2009. :)

 

 

what is the purpose of the resolutions?

To guide lobbying efforts.

If they don't want to fight it, it's not included.

 

 

Which lobbyists?

[asta]

Well I see it as opening the flood gates for home education asylum seekers who could go live legally without need of asylum in another country, possibly at the expense of women who are in danger of genital mutilation, forced rape, parents whose whole family could be shot, kids who have watch genocide kill their families etc. Colour me not a dyed in the wool homeschooler, because I'd rather those people get asylum. Of course it may not be an either or scenario, and that would be wonderful.

 

I concur.

 

Also as a person who has the ability to live in two different countries, if that was me, I'd be sending the kids to school (with false cheer and a forced smile) to minimise distressing situations for the children, like police dragging them away. Then I'd be planning to get the hell out of the country. I'd put the emotional well being of my kids over my convictions about homeschooling. Really, the parents could have made the situation easier and less stressful (while not ideal) for the children and they chose not to. I feel deeply for the children, for the parents... not so much.

 

Yes. If you read the Euro press on this one, this family really didn't do anything to help their own case - basically thumbing their nose at the German government. I think that it is all good and right to say "everyone should have the right to HS", but the reality is, Germany is a large country. Even if they weren't, they face the same social problems as any other nation, including maintaining social order in light of an extremely diverse population, which includes a huge number of recent immigrants who are, in large numbers, refusing to integrate into German society. When a family very publicly tells the government to go to hell... well, what did the family expect to happen?

 

I think this asylum case has set an extremely bad precedent for international relations.

 

 

a

[Peek a Boo]

Which lobbyists?

 

It's the NEA's resolutions. I'll take a wild guess and say the NEA lobbyists.

[Nicole M]

It's the NEA's resolutions. I'll take a wild guess and say the NEA lobbyists.

 

Aren't they pretty busy trying to salvage the wreckage of No Child Left Behind?

[Orthodox6]

HSLDA does not advocate for anyone who is not Christian.

 

HSLDA goes to bat solely for families whose cases "fit" HSLDA's peculiar agenda. I don't know why I should doubt the testimony of families who have been shafted by this self-serving "help" organization.

 

Personal opinion, of course now: The U.S. has no right to promote its philosophies onto other countries, save in extreme cases (such as during WW-II, when innocents were slaughtered). Economic policies, educational policies, even religious policies (controversial though that be) (and I'm as inconsistent as the next person in that I quickly can point to religious policies which I think criminal and deserving of extinction) remain the right of individual countries.

[Peek a Boo]

I concur.

 

 

I'm still waiting to hear why it is impossible for a country to help more than one type of issue at a time.

When a family very publicly tells the government to go to hell... well, what did the family expect to happen?

 

I think this asylum case has set an extremely bad precedent for international relations.

 

sounds like they knew EXACTLY how to make a big splash that worked extremely well for their family. What is happening to those who DIDn't very publicly speak up?

What did Martin Luther King Jr. expect would happen??

 

sometimes we do things for a greater purpose. If protecting freedoms is "bad international relations" then I think the problem is NOT with the US.

[Peek a Boo]

Aren't they pretty busy trying to salvage the wreckage of No Child Left Behind?

 

maybe. I'm not employed by them.

Do you have knowledge that they are lobbying only for salvaging the wreckage of NCLB?

Do you have knowledge that they are NOT interested in lobbying for what is on their Resolutions?

I'd love to hear that they are absolutely not interested in ever lobbying against homeschooling the way their Resolutions state, so if you know anything definite, I'd love to see it.

 

The Resolutions are definite enough for me.

[Peek a Boo]

HSLDA goes to bat solely for families whose cases "fit" HSLDA's peculiar agenda. I don't know why I should doubt the testimony of families who have been shafted by this self-serving "help" organization.

 

HSLDA very clearly lays out what it will and will not "go to bat" on. I doubt the testimonies of people who have been "shafted" because i see plenty more that didn't complain when they realized that their case was NOT in line w/ what HSLDA already told them, and because there are way more families that have been served well by HSLDA in the way that HSLDA said they would serve them.

Personal opinion, of course now: The U.S. has no right to promote its philosophies onto other countries, save in extreme cases (such as during WW-II, when innocents were slaughtered). Economic policies, educational policies, even religious policies (controversial though that be) (and I'm as inconsistent as the next person in that I quickly can point to religious policies which I think criminal and deserving of extinction) remain the right of individual countries.

 

The US is not promoting anything.

They are offering asylum based on our existing asylum law.

 

but yes, we seem to be inconsistent in which laws and policies we want to see enforced at a global level, don't we? ;)

[stripe]

I've always been concerned that most asylum seekers tend not to be the ones who really need the help. (How would such people ever get on a plane, to begin with?)

[Nicole M]

maybe. I'm not employed by them.

Do you have knowledge that they are lobbying only for salvaging the wreckage of NCLB?

Do you have knowledge that they are NOT interested in lobbying for what is on their Resolutions?

I'd love to hear that they are absolutely not interested in ever lobbying against homeschooling the way their Resolutions state, so if you know anything definite, I'd love to see it.

 

The Resolutions are definite enough for me.

 

I did a little googling, and now realize that I was not clear about exactly who the NEA are. Of course they're going to be anti-homeschooling. I don't see the Department of Education or the NEA going to bat just yet over revoking the right to homeschool. I don't have the energy or time that you do, apparently, to research these matters, Peek, but an initial glance reveals that there is a lot of vitriol out there about this, and finding information that is unbiased data won't be easy. I don't have Mrs. Mungo's skill and experience in whipping out data. But I am curious about this.

 

Concerning the German family, I agree with asta.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Nicole M

[Mynyel]

All this talk is all fine and good when we are in our own cozy homes, teaching our kids the way we want to without anyone saying anything. Perhaps you have the occasional uneducated comment about homeschooling in general but for the grander part we are left to our own devises.

 

I don't see how we can say what this family should have or shouldn't have done. We were not in their shoes. Need I say it again? Can we trust ALL media sources at their word? Truly?

 

Why are others "more important" than this family? The fear of being raped...grant me asylum....the fear of getting my children ripped from me because I want to teach them. Which is more important? If these two cases where in front of you and you had to talk to the people, could you without hesitation choose one? I could not.

 

This case is about a judgment call, you are bashing this family because they were invited over here and they took it. I hear no one bashing the judge for his decision! Everything in this case hinged on what the judge came down with.

 

Now that the judge has said yes to asylum now we want to reverse the decision and send this family back to where they came from so that either A they can send their kids to PS or B they can have them taken away for HSing them.

 

WELL for one if they are going to do this to this family, send them back, then by god they need to round up all the illegals in this country and send them home too.

 

We shouldn't be home to anyone if that is the case. We want to pick and choose who gets help and who doesn't. Nice of us to do that. Sorry your case just isn't "dire" enough for us, it needs to be more emotional, there needs to be more drama and there needs to be a threat of "physical" violence.

 

I say shame on you who thinks this way. Shame, shame, shame! We are supposed to be a country who helps all, not those who we deem worthy. Perhaps if we adopted this idea we wouldn't be where we are.

 

Peek...I stand with you here...I agree!

[asta]

sounds like they knew EXACTLY how to make a big splash that worked extremely well for their family. What is happening to those who DIDn't very publicly speak up?

 

 

In Baden Wurttemburg? Honestly?

 

Nothing.

 

Not unless the family is going to the waterpark in the middle of the school day or ticking off their neighbors. And that is only because BW is considered the worst place to "underground HS" in Germany.

 

In response to someone's previous question:

 

So why did he seek asylum in the U.S. rather than relocate to nearby Austria or another European country that allows homeschooling? Romeike's wife Hannelore tells TIME the family was contacted by the Virginia-based Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA), which suggested they go to the U.S. and settle in Morristown, Tenn.

source

 

 

a

[Parrothead]

I'm still waiting to hear why it is impossible for a country to help more than one type of issue at a time.

For once I agree with you Peek. These things are not either/or.

 

 

I've always been concerned that most asylum seekers tend not to be the ones who really need the help. (How would such people ever get on a plane, to begin with?)

Either they have someone, like HSLDA did in this case, that goes and gets them on the plane, or they don't get on a plane at all. Sometimes they try to cross an ocean in a dinghy or cross the border on foot.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I just don't understand why HSLDA felt they should get involved with other countries.

 

I think it is quite possible that HSLDA has been consulted with by local homeschooling advocacy groups (such as Schuluntericht zu Hause). The family in question may have gotten in touch with HSLDA through one of these small German groups.

 

I think that when we were there several years ago, HSLDA was providing some support and counsel to Schuluntericht zu Hause and may have been helping them put together a conference on homeschooling.

 

When you are contemplating the situation in Germany, consider that some of the German homeschoolers were worried that just attending a conference might put them into the public eye of school officials and lead confrontations about their children's status.

 

I remember an old member of this board who ended up eventually putting her kids into school because their mission sending group was going to pull their support unless they complied with the schooling law.

 

I think that you have the odd conflict of much of the US reporting of situations with families in Germany being written in a florid prose and at the same time utterly failing to convey just how bleak the situation is there for homeschoolers.

[asta]

 

Now that the judge has said yes to asylum now we want to reverse the decision and send this family back to where they came from so that either A they can send their kids to PS or B they can have them taken away for HSing them.

 

That is incorrect.

 

In Germany, you have the choice of sending your child to your local public school, a public school elsewhere that uses a different curriculum, or to one of many private schools. Additionally, it isn't as if parents have no say in what a child is exposed to. If a parent doesn't want a child to participate in something (let's say parent believes kid X is too emotionally immature to handle sex ed), they just have to talk to an administrator.

 

Contrary to "what you read in the press", private schools are not cost prohibitive in Germany. Remember: Germany is a socialist country. A person can send 3 kids to a private "kindergarten" (that would be ages 3-5) for less than $300 a month.

 

Now, if you want your child schooled solely from an Evangelical Christian viewpoint... living in Germany really isn't for you.

 

 

a

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I am not going into whether the HSLDA should have advocated for them or not or what their politics are.

 

What I have to say is that in my opinion they should not have given asylum because they could have chosen a number of European Union countries where homeschooling is legal and where as German citizens they have the right to live and work (and even vote at the local, regional and European level or get a number of various benefits including health care) without any restrictions. Any European Union citizen has the right to live and work in any European Union country, thus there is NO need or basis for this German family to ask for asylum in the US.

 

Interestingly I recall that one European homeschooler tried to use the freedom to live and work anywhere in the EU as a means of getting homeschooling rules in Germany recognized by the EU as violating freedom of movement and employment. Her point was if her family couldn't homeschool in Germany then it did in fact limit their ability to live anywhere in the EU and limited her family's ability to take employment in Germany. I think that she was German but her husband was something else (maybe Irish). I don't think that the EU courts/regulators went anywhere with that idea.

 

If I'm remembering correctly she was interviewed on the podcast that Dana of Principled Discovery did a couple years ago. I think the podcast was Homeschool Talk Radio. It might still be up on iTunes.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I would love to see this stay on topic. I would love to hear what other home schoolers feel about the interference of a US home school advocate group interfering in international political issues. I could care less about anything else that HSLDA does or doesn't do. I am very concerned about this particular topic. This will bring out politicians, teacher's unions, and anti-home school groups as well as representatives of the German govt. especially if it goes to high court.

I happen to think that most that have discussed this topic are not bashing HSLDA, but they are concerned over HSLDA's interference in international home schooling that could have ramifications state side. I do think that most non-home schoolers reading these articles will read HSLDA-homeschool advocate for __% of home schoolers and think that it speaks for all.

I would consider this a debate over the merits and ramifications of HSLDA's political agenda. I think everyone needs to consider the odds that if this goes to high court (Supreme Court) of whether this will indeed be turned over. Supreme Court justices or even lower courts than supreme court and higher than state court (Tenn. immigration judge granted asylum) will be looking at all home school laws in all states. It will put it in the spot light and put it as a federal decision. It will also set a court precedent. That decision could very well be that the right to school at home is not a fundamental right when there are alternatives available. What would your replies be then? If it turns out that from involving in foreign domestic issues that your rights are suddenly put into question, how would your replies differ?

How would you feel if b/c of this international conflict more restrictions and requirements were required in your state? You would have to have on rose colored glasses to not see the potential for disaster in confronting another govt. and their educational system by granting asylum. It won't be about home schooling in the end. It will be about whether the US is acting like a cocky teenager and saying our way is better and we are going to throw it in your country's face by letting them come here and defy your laws and your beliefs.

Home schooling will be the topic at hand, but it will be about damage control for the US politicians. This will ultimately be about international politics and how alienating a non-repressive govt. and questioning their govt. and law system can hurt the US. If you think that the US won't make a good show of it all then choose to save face, then you need to look at the past more closely.

No one wants the family to not be able to home school. The judge that made that decision made a lot of comments that are controversial concerning Germany and their laws. That will cause major difficulties. I am concerned that the HSLDA arranged their leaving and told them where to live (where said judge is immigration judge). There will probably be some friendships between the judge and the HSLDA that will come out. It is the first decision of it's kind and those type of decisions are appealed b/c they set precedent. When it is appealed, it will be very public.

It will throw happy, go-lucky home schoolers that are following the US law into the spotlight. It will become a topic of discussion. It is already on the front page of the internet. There is already a thread about the horrible comments on the article, but think for a minute. We are the minority. Those comments will just become more public and more face to face the bigger this gets and the higher up the appeals process goes.

[Tidbits of Learning]

The US is not promoting anything.

They are offering asylum based on our existing asylum law.

 

 

 

Actually, this is an unprecedented case and the judge used a social group persecution to grant the asylum. Since it is unprecedented, it will now be appealed and it may be overturned. All judges interpret law differently which is why the high court laws are set as precedent for judges.

This is this judges interpretation of the law. It is being appealed b/c it is the first of it's kind and now we will see the other interpretation and opinions on home schooling come out.

[Orthodox6]

As I used the word "dire", I can't help but wonder whether you are screaming at me. (Yes, I definitely hear "screaming.")

 

The United States always has offered help selectively. Other countries do the same. The U.S. never has been a country that ". . . helps all, not [just] those whom we deem worthy." This is the reality.

 

At any rate, I'm not someone who came here to "bash" the family. Maybe someone else did, but not I. I haven't even written about them.

 

 

 

All this talk is all fine and good when we are in our own cozy homes, teaching our kids the way we want to without anyone saying anything. Perhaps you have the occasional uneducated comment about homeschooling in general but for the grander part we are left to our own devises.

 

I don't see how we can say what this family should have or shouldn't have done. We were not in their shoes. Need I say it again? Can we trust ALL media sources at their word? Truly?

 

Why are others "more important" than this family? The fear of being raped...grant me asylum....the fear of getting my children ripped from me because I want to teach them. Which is more important? If these two cases where in front of you and you had to talk to the people, could you without hesitation choose one? I could not.

 

This case is about a judgment call, you are bashing this family because they were invited over here and they took it. I hear no one bashing the judge for his decision! Everything in this case hinged on what the judge came down with.

 

Now that the judge has said yes to asylum now we want to reverse the decision and send this family back to where they came from so that either A they can send their kids to PS or B they can have them taken away for HSing them.

 

WELL for one if they are going to do this to this family, send them back, then by god they need to round up all the illegals in this country and send them home too.

 

We shouldn't be home to anyone if that is the case. We want to pick and choose who gets help and who doesn't. Nice of us to do that. Sorry your case just isn't "dire" enough for us, it needs to be more emotional, there needs to be more drama and there needs to be a threat of "physical" violence.

 

I say shame on you who thinks this way. Shame, shame, shame! We are supposed to be a country who helps all, not those who we deem worthy. Perhaps if we adopted this idea we wouldn't be where we are.

 

Peek...I stand with you here...I agree!

Edited March 3, 2010 by Orthodox6
clarify

[Parrothead]

It will be about whether the US is acting like a cocky teenager and saying our way is better and we are going to throw it in your country's face by letting them come here and defy your laws and your beliefs.

 

But the US was built on defying laws and beliefs of parent countries.

 

To not stand up for homeschoolers that are persecuted in other countries because we are afraid that our comfort will be disturbed is selfish.

 

If you are a Christian would you stand up for Christians persecuted in other countries? Would you stand up for them solely because you are secure that your belief system is guaranteed here in the US? Do you know how extremely fast that could change - even with the rights outlined in the Constitution?

 

Would you stand up for freedom of speech worldwide?

 

Would you stand up for any of your beliefs or your lifestyle choices for anyone else anywhere in the world if there was a possibility that your beliefs and choices were threatened at home?

 

From your remarks I do not think you would stand up for education choice worldwide solely because your choice may be threatened. I find that sad.

[Laura Corin]

plan to run to a nearby country where there are still issues,

 

I can assure you that Scotland has no intrusive home education rules. If your children have never been in school in the UK you don't even have to register. I'm a completely legal home educator who has zero contact with the authorities.

 

Laura

[Tidbits of Learning]

All this talk is all fine and good when we are in our own cozy homes, teaching our kids the way we want to without anyone saying anything. Perhaps you have the occasional uneducated comment about homeschooling in general but for the grander part we are left to our own devises.

This will have great publicity and it will put home schooling on the defensive.

I say shame on you who thinks this way. Shame, shame, shame! We are supposed to be a country who helps all, not those who we deem worthy. Perhaps if we adopted this idea we wouldn't be where we are.

The US immigration department is questioning this decision. So if you want to say shame, shame, shame...then get out your Rolodex and look up your representative. The family is here b/c of interference by a US home school advocacy group and that will look bad for home schoolers that do not believe everything the group follows. The media articles all focus on the HSLDA's involvement.

If you read the articles, you will see that US Immigration filed an appeal immediately after the judges decision. It also says that the judge was quite vigorous in his motion and that he questioned Germany's values and educational system.

WELL for one if they are going to do this to this family, send them back, then by god they need to round up all the illegals in this country and send them home too.

This family is doing this legally. It isn't about illegals. This family is going through the court and the decision will be made eventually, but it probably will put the US definition of home schooling and whether it is truly a fundamental right up for debate and question. If they send this family back, it will be b/c the court system decided that the basis of their asylum did not meet the requirements for asylum. So these are two totally different things.

Why are others "more important" than this family? The fear of being raped...grant me asylum....the fear of getting my children ripped from me because I want to teach them. Which is more important? If these two cases where in front of you and you had to talk to the people, could you without hesitation choose one? I could not.

I think that rape is more dire than having to go to school. This may just be me, but I would definitely be more afraid and scared of being raped than of going to school. I have to say if you put the poll out there to the majority of the US population that coincidentally choose to send their kids to school and you will see that rape will be the one chosen more dire.

It isn't about our home schooling values and moral dilemmas of such a situation. We won't be making the decision. The courts will and the politicians will. There will be far more of them that are anti-home schooling. IF you made that same comparison to your representative and senators, do you really think that they would hesitate to say rape is more dire?

 

By the way dire is defined as desperate: fraught with extreme danger; nearly hopeless. I don't think that most of our Representatives and Senators as well as the majority of the US population would take that definition and apply it and say that rape and going to school are equally dire.

 

It isn't about whether we agree that home schooling is a fundamental right, but about whether we have overstepped our boundaries concerning a country's foreign policy. This isn't a simple US case. This is a foreign family that is seeking asylum. A foreign family that had other options besides seeking asylum and still would have been able to home school. A foreign family that was advised and helped to get here by a US home school advocacy group.

[Tidbits of Learning]

But the US was built on defying laws and beliefs of parent countries.

 

To not stand up for homeschoolers that are persecuted in other countries because we are afraid that our comfort will be disturbed is selfish.

 

If you are a Christian would you stand up for Christians persecuted in other countries? Would you stand up for them solely because you are secure that your belief system is guaranteed here in the US? Do you know how extremely fast that could change - even with the rights outlined in the Constitution?

 

Would you stand up for freedom of speech worldwide?

 

Would you stand up for any of your beliefs or your lifestyle choices for anyone else anywhere in the world if there was a possibility that your beliefs and choices were threatened at home?

 

From your remarks I do not think you would stand up for education choice worldwide solely because your choice may be threatened. I find that sad.

 

I do stand up for my beliefs and choices. Whether I am a Christian or not has nothing to do with whether I think that this is overstepping boundaries. They had other options. The US was not their only option.

I am following the law in my country and my state. I don't want my laws to be put into question and changed to make a political statement by an advocacy group that does not represent me as a home schooler. I home school b/c my children all have epi-pens (deathly allergies) and the school does not have a nurse on hand. I home school for medical reasons.

IF this decision brings about a serious questioning of whether the right to home school is a basic human right and it is decided that it is not and the US laws suddenly change, would you still think it is sad or would you then home school illegally?

The need to seek asylum was not there. They had options. They were sought out and brought here (political). They chose to seek asylum in the US b/c the HSLDA sought them out.

I am exercising my freedom of speech right here to say that I think this was political and not necessary. The family did not need the intervention of the HSLDA. All they had to do was go to a neighboring European country (as citizens) and home school.

So I don't find my unwillingness to put home schooling up for debate unnecessarily state side over an unnecessary asylum case to be sad.

The New York times article---

 

"Long before the Romeikes had begun their fight, lawyers at the association had been discussing the situation in Germany. They had tried litigating cases one by one, usually unsuccessfully.

In 2006, after the European Court of Human Rights declined to hear a petition by home-schooling parents that had failed in German courts, lawyers at the association decided to add a political line of attack to the legal one, both to raise awareness of the German policies and to find some broader solution to the issue."

 

At a brainstorming session, one of the lawyers, Jim Mason, came up with the idea of petitioning for political asylum.

“I don’t know German law or German courts,” Mr. Mason said, “but I do know American courts.”

Edited March 3, 2010 by OpenMinded

[Parrothead]

I do stand up for my beliefs and choices. Whether I am a Christian or not has nothing to do with whether I think that this is overstepping boundaries. They had other options. The US was not their only option.

I used religious freedom as an example. Would you fight for religious freedom worldwide but not educational freedom simply because educational freedom is not a Constitutional right at this time? Homeschooling used to be illegal in the US. That fight has been fought for us for the most part. Isn't it time to help others fight their fight for the same freedoms we have?

 

 

I am following the law in my country and my state. I don't want my laws to be put into question and changed to make a political statement by an advocacy group that does not represent me as a home schooler.

What if it had been a group that you belonged to? I think that since HSLDA is not everyone's cup of tea that it is bashed no matter what it does. Just because they were the ones to step up to the plate and attempt to find a solution for these people they are being painted as the bad guy.

 

 

I home school b/c my children all have epi-pens (deathly allergies) and the school does not have a nurse on hand. I home school for medical reasons.

You have an extra option that most people do not have. Honest to goodness it sounds like you just want to be left alone and the status quo not upset for the simple reason that you do not want your children endangered.

 

IF this decision brings about a serious questioning of whether the right to home school is a basic human right and it is decided that it is not and the US laws suddenly change, would you still think it is sad or would you then home school illegally?

Yes I would. I'd homeschool illegally and fight with everything I had to reverse the decision. I would get off my rear and advocate for my family and every family that wants to homeschool. Would you?

 

The need to seek asylum was not there. They had options. They were sought out and brought here (political). They chose to seek asylum in the US b/c the HSLDA sought them out.

So you would be okay with it if some other group, possibly from some other country took up their cause. As long as it did not happen in the US and possibly threaten your comfort zone you are not against helping?

 

Either HSLDA was the only group that stepped up or they were called to help and they answered that call.

 

I am exercising my freedom of speech right here to say that I think this was political and not necessary. The family did not need the intervention of the HSLDA. All they had to do was go to a neighboring European country (as citizens) and home school.

Like the family that moved to France and was arrested for violating Germany's homeschooling laws?

 

So I don't find my unwillingness to put home schooling up for debate unnecessarily state side over an unnecessary asylum case to be sad.

I, and many others, think it is about time it is up for debate and settled. I've been at this for 7 years. Of those 7 I've spent 5 making sure that my right to homeschool is not stepped on by the government. I think it is time that homeschooling is a protected right and not something that can come up in each state's legislature every single session.

 

If you do not have the willingness to put something you believe in up for debate, why do you believe in it? Are you that afraid your belief in the right to homeschool will be shot down?

 

In the end it boils down to you are saying, you don't care where those people go as long as it isn't the US where there is a possibility that it will mess up what you have going on.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Parrothead

[Parrothead]

I home school b/c my children all have epi-pens (deathly allergies) and the school does not have a nurse on hand. I home school for medical reasons.

What would you do if you lived in a place that would not let you home school your children? What if the government of the place you live did not give a rats patootie about your children and their allergies?

[lionfamily1999]

I, and many others, think it is about time it is up for debate and settled. I've been at this for 7 years. Of those 7 I've spent 5 making sure that my right to homeschool is not stepped on by the government. I think it is time that homeschooling is a protected right and not something that can come up in each state's legislature every single session.

 

If you do not have the willingness to put something you believe in up for debate, why do you believe in it? Are you that afraid your belief in the right to homeschool will be shot down?

 

In the end it boils down to you are saying, you don't care where those people go as long as it isn't the US where there is a possibility that it will mess up what you have going on.

 

I want to collect your quotes from here, print them, and make a motivational pamphlet.

 

Please continue, I agree with all of it, go Parrot Head go!

[Mabelen]

sure there is.

http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/200811170.asp

Political asylum is available to people already in the United States who fear returning to their home country due to actual persecution or who have a well-founded fear of actual persecution because of their race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group or political opinion. Homeschoolers certainly have a “well-founded fear” of persecution in Germany.

 

 

All of what you say would apply if this family didn't have the legal right of abode anywhere else in the world where homeschooling were legal. This is not the case. This family has the legal right of abode in a number of European Union countries where homeschooling is perfectly legal. They don't need to seek asylum to exercise their right to homeschool. Asylum seeking should be left for those who have no such recourse.

 

This is an entirely political case, not a genuine asylum case. This family and those who are helping them in my opinion are abusing the system. As Christians I wonder if they are thinking what the effects of their own case will have on those people who genuinely have nowhere to go and need asylum.

 

I wanted to add that while I sympathize with their intent and I think Germany should be made to allow homeschooling, there have to be other ways to achieve this goal without jeopardizing the original intent of asylum seeking.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Mabelen

[Tidbits of Learning]

What would you do if you lived in a place that would not let you home school your children? What if the government of the place you live did not give a rats patootie about your children and their allergies?

 

I would follow the law.

[Tidbits of Learning]

All of what you say would apply if this family didn't have the legal right of abode anywhere else in the world where homeschooling were legal. This is not the case. This family has the legal right of abode in a number of European Union countries where homeschooling is perfectly legal. They don't need to seek asylum to exercise their right to homeschool. Asylum seeking should be left for those who have no such recourse.

 

This is an entirely political case, not a genuine asylum case. This family and those who are helping them in my opinion are abusing the system. As Christians I wonder if they are thinking what the effects of their own case will have on those people who genuinely have nowhere to go and need asylum.

 

I wanted to add that while I sympathize with their intent and I think Germany should be made to allow homeschooling, there have to be other ways to achieve this goal without jeopardizing the original intent of asylum seeking.

 

Thank you for writing this. This is my point exactly. There is no need for the family to seek asylum here. I do care about whether families can home school their children. This will become less about home schooling and more about the legal definition of asylum and whether they meet the conditions. However, it will put home schooling into the spot light.

 

What if it had been a group that you belonged to? I think that since HSLDA is not everyone's cup of tea that it is bashed no matter what it does. Just because they were the ones to step up to the plate and attempt to find a solution for these people they are being painted as the bad guy.

It doesn't matter what the group b/c it wasn't necessary. The family had options. They chose not to take those options. They were advised to apply for unnecessary political asylum.

 

So you would be okay with it if some other group, possibly from some other country took up their cause. As long as it did not happen in the US and possibly threaten your comfort zone you are not against helping?

 

You are missing the point. There was no need for any group to take up their cause. They had the choice to move to another European country of which they would be citizens and have legal right to home school without any political debate.

 

The HSLDA had already decided to test political asylum as a way to question Germany before this family. It is in the article. It is political.

I also want to point out that not every one who home schools believes that all schools are bad which is why I wrote that I home school for medical reasons. The HSLDA represents a lot of things that I don't personally believe in even though I believe in the right to home school for whatever reasons you may have-religious, medical, personal, moral, ethical...however, with mention of the HSLDA in these articles we will all be lumped into a box that we may not all fit into.

I do care about what happens to others. I just don't feel that this is a battle that needed to be fought. It is unnecessary and totally a political statement. The family did not need to seek asylum.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm in favor of people everywhere having equal rights. And I'm not in favor of the government dictating what those rights can or can't be. I hope the US decision stands, and I don't mind at all if that decision attracts other families from other countries who want to homeschool (regardless of their religion).

 

Here's the problem with this sort of talk-the US Constitution would most definitely *not* be the basis of any such acts. I've *routinely* seen complaints and warnings about the UN here. How can you guarantee rights everywhere for everyone when so many people live in political chaos? The UN Rights of the Child Act is intended to give the UN a leg to stand on when it comes to child rape, child labor, preventing girls from being educated and yet I *constantly* get warnings about this from various sources. As much as I believe in homeschooling, as much as I believe in freedoms, the world has bigger problems at the moment. I don't believe for one instant that even if the UN Rights of the Child included provisions for home education that most of those people from whom I receive warnings would suddenly be in favor of it. How else would you go about securing "equal rights for everyone?"

 

If, as a German citizen, they could go to England and homeschool there without incident, then I'm not sure that they needed to come here to avoid persecution.

 

I agree. If you have other options, why pursue political asylum in the US?

 

 

In Germany, you have the choice of sending your child to your local public school, a public school elsewhere that uses a different curriculum, or to one of many private schools.

 

Part of the problem here is that Germany's public school system doesn't work *at all* like the American system. There is a huge disconnect that I'm not entirely sure we can overcome with people who are not familiar with EU law, German and UK public school systems and so forth. It's not like the US where there is only one public school that the children can attend. Kids in Germany ride the city bus. To some degree they can choose what school they want to attend. They have a lot of specialized schools (for example, they have Waldorf schools, technical schools, etc).

 

Contrary to "what you read in the press", private schools are not cost prohibitive in Germany. Remember: Germany is a socialist country. A person can send 3 kids to a private "kindergarten" (that would be ages 3-5) for less than $300 a month.

 

And actually it is based on a sliding scale. Also, stay at home moms receive money(around 200 Euro per month) from the government for staying at home with their kids (kindergeld). Even German ex-pats are entitled to this money. You receive it until the child is 18 or until they turn 25 if they are still in school. Health care is free. Trains and buses are cheap, public transportation is fast, easy and plentiful.

 

Now, if you want your child schooled solely from an Evangelical Christian viewpoint... living in Germany really isn't for you.

 

They actually could have sent them to one of the international Christian public schools in Germany, we knew people who sent their kids there when we lived in Germany.

 

I would love to see this stay on topic. I would love to hear what other home schoolers feel about the interference of a US home school advocate group interfering in international political issues. I could care less about anything else that HSLDA does or doesn't do. I am very concerned about this particular topic. This will bring out politicians, teacher's unions, and anti-home school groups as well as representatives of the German govt. especially if it goes to high court.

 

Right. I believe this is intentionally being pursued as a federal case by HSLDA so that there is federal precedent protecting homeschooling as a right. I think it could backfire. I'd really rather the federal government stay out of homeschooling.

 

I would consider this a debate over the merits and ramifications of HSLDA's political agenda. I think everyone needs to consider the odds that if this goes to high court (Supreme Court) of whether this will indeed be turned over. Supreme Court justices or even lower courts than supreme court and higher than state court (Tenn. immigration judge granted asylum) will be looking at all home school laws in all states. It will put it in the spot light and put it as a federal decision. It will also set a court precedent. That decision could very well be that the right to school at home is not a fundamental right when there are alternatives available. What would your replies be then? If it turns out that from involving in foreign domestic issues that your rights are suddenly put into question, how would your replies differ?

 

Exactly.

 

I do stand up for my beliefs and choices. Whether I am a Christian or not has nothing to do with whether I think that this is overstepping boundaries. They had other options. The US was not their only option.

I am following the law in my country and my state. I don't want my laws to be put into question and changed to make a political statement by an advocacy group that does not represent me as a home schooler.

 

I agree.

 

I, and many others, think it is about time it is up for debate and settled. I've been at this for 7 years. Of those 7 I've spent 5 making sure that my right to homeschool is not stepped on by the government. I think it is time that homeschooling is a protected right and not something that can come up in each state's legislature every single session.

 

Settled by whom? Under what circumstances? Under what restrictions? I seriously do not think we could get away with federal protection of homeschooling without federal regulation. I'd rather take my chances with state law and move to another state if necessary.

 

All of what you say would apply if this family didn't have the legal right of abode anywhere else in the world where homeschooling were legal. This is not the case. This family has the legal right of abode in a number of European Union countries where homeschooling is perfectly legal. They don't need to seek asylum to exercise their right to homeschool. Asylum seeking should be left for those who have no such recourse.

 

I completely agree.

[Parrothead]

I would follow the law.

That is where we are different then. Family rights is something I'm passionate about. I'd say the heck with the law and homeschool just like those people in Germany and other countries where homeschooling is illegal. And while I'm at it, I'd fight for my family's right to do what is best for our child, and if you decided that you were going to ground and take your children with you I'd have your back.

[Tidbits of Learning]

This topic is coming up all over the web. Here is a site with some better comments than the yahoo one. I think these comments aptly show that most consider this more about the definition of asylum than homeschooling although the homeschooling debate will get entangled during this whole procedure.

http://blogs.babycenter.com/momformation/2010/02/03/german-homeschooling-family-granted-educational-asylum-in-us/?intcmp=promoslice_pgmg_pos14

[Parrothead]

It doesn't matter what the group b/c it wasn't necessary. The family had options. They chose not to take those options. They were advised to apply for unnecessary political asylum.

 

 

The family did not need to seek asylum.

I suppose it will depend on your view of persecution.

 

Settled by whom? Under what circumstances? Under what restrictions? I seriously do not think we could get away with federal protection of homeschooling without federal regulation. I'd rather take my chances with state law and move to another state if necessary. [/color]

 

 

 

 

I think that protection without burdensome regulation could be accomplished. It is done now in many states, why not federally.

 

Of course you get into the whole states rights debate and that is an entirely different thread for an entirely different day.

[asta]

They actually could have sent them to one of the international Christian public schools in Germany, we knew people who sent their kids there when we lived in Germany.

 

I totally forgot about that. And I even know where one is. :tongue_smilie:

 

a

[Laura Corin]

I suppose it will depend on your view of persecution.

 

 

... but whether they needed to be offered asylum. If home education became illegal in Pennysylvania, people could move to Texas: they would not need asylum in the UK. Similarly, people who can't home educate in Germany can move to Scotland: they don't need asylum in the US.

 

Laura

[Mrs Mungo]

think that protection without burdensome regulation could be accomplished. It is done now in many states, why not federally.

 

Some states currently have *zero* regulation. Why would those people want to incur any regulation? I live in a state with mild regulation-we have to send a letter of intent to the school the kids would attend and send in a progress report or standardized test results (the latter is required for certain years). Why would I want to take on the type of regulation found in California? I know many homeschoolers who think it's easy but I'd rather live in a state with less regulation. Why would anyone want an *additional* level of regulation that could require (at least) registering with a federal agency? Some of the same people arguing for this family receiving asylum would be frothing at the mouth if it was suggested there be federal regulation of homeschooling.

[Mrs Mungo]

... but whether they needed to be offered asylum. If home education became illegal in Pennysylvania, people could move to Texas: they would not need asylum in the UK. Similarly, people who can't home educate in Germany can move to Scotland: they don't need asylum in the US.

 

Laura

 

Exactly. I don't appreciate HSLDA risking federal intervention in homeschooling just to have a federal court case for precedent.