Why does MCT bill themselves as a "gifted" curriculum?

[Crimson Wife]

Never mind.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Crimson Wife

[Granny_Weatherwax]

And, I think that someone mentioned diagramming......HERE:

 

 

:rofl:

[Granny_Weatherwax]

:w00t:

"I'm so sorry officer! I saw her and I tried to brake but then my Hummer hit the drool-trail her children left behind and I slid and went right over her. It's so horrible, so awful, so tragic...Say, do you think you could maybe pass this copy of Caesar's English to the father when he picks up the kids?"

 

:lol:

[Annabel Lee]

And, I think that someone mentioned diagramming......HERE:

 

Yep, I knew very little about MCT when I asked if it included diagramming. This looks like exactly what I want my children doing. :lol:

[MariannNOVA]

Yep, I knew very little about MCT when I asked if it included diagramming. This looks like exactly what I want my children doing. :lol:

 

Well, you know, I've decided my kids are covering LA and Art at the same time....never too soon to learn how to multi-task! And....should they decide on a career in Law Enforcement, well, hopefully they will have retained those 'diagramming' skills.

[swimmermom3]

I apologize for breaking up the party but I did want to offer a couple of thoughts:

 

1) Elinor asked a very valid question with regards to MCT being a program for "gifted" students. I appreciated the thoughtful answers regarding "gifted" students in general. For some reason even though I knew our own district used MCT for TAG students, I never really thought about that aspect. I just liked the writing and it didn't look like everything else I own.:blush: Gut instinct, what a knowledgeable way to plan your child's education, eh?

 

2) It can be difficult to contain your own joy at finding a curriculum that works for you, especially if you have struggled to find the right thing in a particular area for a long time. If your child expresses pleasure, that's just downright exciting. The expression of that joy is not a comment on anyone else's choice.

 

3) I have thought long and hard about the comment regarding attacking the dissenting voice.

 

From my personal perspective and not speaking for any other MCT users, I relish a dissenting voice who has used the program and is "underwhelmed" by it. This poster's feedback gives me an opportunity to learn more and to ask questions. What didn't you like? Where did you hit the snag? Did you need to tweak it? Or if worse comes to worse, "What did you change to?" There is a world of value to be mined from a knowledgeable dissenting voice.

 

If a poster tells me that they bought, oh say a test booklet for Singapore math and then they proceed to tell me that they don't think the whole philosophy behind Singapore math is solid based on looking at one component, I'm downright puzzled. My questions are going to be along the lines of "How did you come to that conclusion? What facts did you base it on?"

 

However, what I totally don't get is hanging out on certain curriculum threads, asking lots of good questions, receiving just as many well-thought out and gracious responses (that take time to write), choosing to not use the curriculum, continuing to hang out on the same threads while trashing the curriculum that one never used, and finally feeling attacked by irritable posters like swimmermom3 whose one thought is "bad form."

[kalanamak]

Yep, I knew very little about MCT when I asked if it included diagramming. This looks like exactly what I want my children doing. :lol:

 

Hey, this is great. The music is back on. I can start dancing again. Turn down the lights, though....I'm not as young as I used to be.

[swimmermom3]

Hey, this is great. The music is back on. I can start dancing again. Turn down the lights, though....I'm not as young as I used to be.

 

:lol:Ha! Woman, you are usually three steps ahead of the rest of us.

[MariannNOVA]

SHEESH! Since you already broke up the party, here's my .02 (Yours is in red, mine is in blue)

 

I apologize for breaking up the party but I did want to offer a couple of thoughts:

1) Elinor asked a very valid question with regards to MCT being a program for "gifted" students. I found her question thought provoking. I appreciated the thoughtful answers regarding "gifted" students in general. For some reason even though I knew our own district used MCT for TAG students, I never really thought about that aspect. I did not think about that aspect, either. I just liked the writing and it didn't look like everything else I own.:blush: Gut instinct, what a knowledgeable way to plan your child's education, eh? This is true for me as well. We had been struggling with LA curric in that the twins were not particularly interested in what we had been using. And we were not having a good experience with what came next. And, it doesn't matter WHAT it was that we HAD used. What mattered to me was that it wasn't working. And, in the words of the pediatrician that I brought my two older daughters to hundreds of years ago: 'Trust your instincts. No one knows your child the way you know your child.' So, I completely understand Lisa's 'gut' reaction test - works for me, too.

 

2) It can be difficult to contain your own joy at finding a curriculum that works for you, I am going to digress somewhat here: The Hummer 'thing' started with those very funny threads about 'MCT is so great that it can cut through a tomato like...........' and then it went on from there. These threads didn't have as much to do with MCT as much as they had to do with everyone taking an 'idea' and running with it. especially if you have struggled to find the right thing in a particular area for a long time. If your child expresses pleasure, that's just downright exciting. The expression of that joy is not a comment on anyone else's choice. :iagree: All three of my children are enjoying and learning with MCT. I'm pleased with that. I'm also pleased if someone else writes that they are using 'thus and such' and they are pleased with 'thus and such.' I would not think I am going out on a shaky limb here if I state that we certainly want other homeschoolers to have a positive experience with the curriculum of their choice.

 

3) I have thought long and hard about the comment regarding attacking the dissenting voice.

From my personal perspective and not speaking for any other MCT users, I relish a dissenting voice who has used the program and is "underwhelmed" by it. This poster's feedback gives me an opportunity to learn more and to ask questions. What didn't you like? Where did you hit the snag? Did you need to tweak it? Or if worse comes to worse, "What did you change to?" There is a world of value to be mined from a knowledgeable dissenting voice. I agree - particularly since I select curric based on the individual needs of each of my children. I know that what works for one, may not work for another. So, informed, reliable feedback that opens the door to those types of questions (see Lisa's questions above) is quite valuable.

 

If a poster tells me that they bought, oh say a test booklet for Singapore math and then they proceed to tell me that they don't think the whole philosophy behind Singapore math is solid based on looking at one component, I'm downright puzzled. My questions are going to be along the lines of "How did you come to that conclusion? What facts did you base it on?" Again, I would have to agree with Lisa here.

 

However, what I totally don't get is hanging out on certain curriculum threads, asking lots of good questions, receiving just as many well-thought out and gracious responses (that take time to write), choosing to not use the curriculum, continuing to hang out on the same threads while trashing the curriculum that one never used, and finally feeling attacked by irritable posters like swimmermom3 whose one thought is "bad form."

I don't understand this either.

 

Hmmmmmm, Lisa? If the party is over, does that mean there won't be any more goat canapes?

[MariannNOVA]

My apologies -- I did not mean to hijack -- (the hummer thing)

 

I think that your post that started this thread was particularly thought-provoking for me as I had also wondered about the Gifted tag as regards MCT.

 

Thanks for articulating that.

[PeterPan]

Look, I think attacking people is attacking people and bad form. If somebody shoots off their mouth about something they know little about, it's usually pretty obvious. If it irks you, you correct it by giving the correct information or stating your EXPERIENCE, not by attacking the person. I think that's the only beef people have had with responses like that. No one minds being corrected or challenged, only attacked. I'm not even saying who is attacking or that anyone is. I'm just pointing out a general principle. It seems to go by the wayside occasionally when people get defensive. :)

 

And you know, it's kind of funny to me to think that someone thinks that their own lack of a certain feeling means someone else can't, doesn't, or shouldn't have it. You just haven't had it yourself. It's the could I/should I haunting feeling. It's when it's in your craw and you can't decide. Or it's when you researched it so much it's in your craw still and you need more time to talk about it. ;) Again, I figure leave people alone. I have great confidence in the readers of the board to sort out who is saying what and why. Different viewpoints will resonate with different people. It's not like there's any one right thing here.

 

Oh, and when people really bug you, you can just blacklist them for yourself and block all their posts. It's a great thing. I started doing it when I was pregnant, simply because I seemed to have a temper problem. Now I enjoy it as my own private peace tool. When I want to read posts, I read them. When I don't, they just plain don't appear. :)

Edited February 3, 2010 by OhElizabeth

[Corraleno]

According to the Royal Fireworks site,

These exciting and demanding books have been phenomenally successful both as stand-alones, and as part of a longer term, progressive English Language Arts curriculum.

 

I just wanted to clarify something, because I think this is what confuses a lot of people. I would consider the grammar books the *least* stand-alone of all the elementary level MCT materials. At minimum, one would want to use both the Grammar book and the Practice workbook. Using one without the other would be like using a math text without doing any of the problems in the workbook, and then complaining that there wasn't enough practice in the program. The grammar books are designed to quickly teach the concepts, which are then practiced and applied for the rest of year using "four level analysis" of the sentences in the workbooks, as well as being expanded and enriched in the vocabulary, poetry, and writing books.

 

IMO, the poetry and vocabulary books are much more "stand alone" than the grammar, and I suspect that is what RFP is referring to in the quote above. For example, Word Within the Word I & II are used as stand-alone texts in Honors English Vocabulary courses through Northwestern's gifted program, and I'm sure they're used in other schools throughout in the country.

 

I think it's a mistake to assume that you can just buy Grammar Town, for example, and you will be getting a deep, rigorous, gifted-level grammar program. You will be getting HALF of the grammar program, and less than 1/4 of the actual "gifted language arts program." The breadth of the program, as well as the depth added to the program through discussion and analysis, is an inextricable part of what makes this a "gifted" program.

 

Looking at Grammar Island and dismissing the program as lightweight, not rigorous, and not worthy of the "hype" is like looking at the first book of Miquon ~ without seeing the Notes to Teachers, Lab Sheet Annotations, First Grade Diary or the Cuisenaire rods ~ and announcing that it's just a booklet full of shapes and rectangles, not a rigorous math program at all, and all those users who love it are just deluded.

 

Jackie

Edited February 3, 2010 by Corraleno

[MariannNOVA]

Oh, and when people really bug you, you can just blacklist them for yourself and block all their posts. It's a great thing........Now I enjoy it as my own private peace tool. When I want to read posts, I read them. When I don't, they just plain don't appear. :)

 

:iagree: This works amazingly well for me, too.

Regarding Corraleno's quote below (Bolding is mine) -- (My words are in blue)

I just wanted to clarify something, because I think this is what confuses a lot of people. I would consider the grammar books the *least* stand-alone of all the elementary level MCT materials. At minimum, one would want to use both the Grammar book and the Practice workbook. Using one without the other would be like using a math text without doing any of the problems in the workbook, and then complaining that there wasn't enough practice in the program. The grammar books are designed to quickly teach the concepts, which are then practiced and applied for the rest of year using "four level analysis" of the sentences in the workbooks, as well as being expanded and enriched in the vocabulary, poetry, and writing books.

 

IMO, the poetry and vocabulary books are much more "stand alone" than the grammar, and I suspect that is what RFP is referring to in the quote above. I agree :iagree:. When my books arrived in November, I read through GI and Grammar Voyage in no time at all - without a clear understanding of what I have bolded above, I would have been unimpressed, perplexed and disappointed. However, having done extensive reading of threads here, having sent out PMs to anyone who impressed me as having a clear grasp of the 'nature' of MCT, and lurking on the MCT YAHOO group email list, I received what I expected to receive and was quite pleased. And, yes, the website is abysmal. For example, Word Within the Word I & II are used as stand-alone texts in Honors English Vocabulary courses through Northwestern's gifted program, and I'm sure they're used in other schools throughout in the country.

 

I think it's a mistake to assume that you can just buy Grammar Town, for example, and you will be getting a deep, rigorous, gifted-level grammar program. You will be getting HALF of the grammar program, and less than 1/4 of the actual "gifted language arts program." The breadth of the program, as well as the depth added to the program through discussion and analysis, is an inextricable part of what makes this a "gifted" program.

 

Looking at Grammar Island and dismissing the program as lightweight, not rigorous, and not worthy of the "hype" is like looking at the first book of Miquon ~ without seeing the Notes to Teachers, Lab Sheet Annotations, First Grade Diary or the Cuisenaire rods ~ and announcing that it's just a booklet full of shapes and rectangles, not a rigorous math program at all, and all those users who love it are just deluded.

 

Jackie

 

Adding here: I have 15+ years experience as a classroom teacher -- not in public school, but rather in small private schools - most of them Classical Christian methodology. I say this b/c in that setting, I had the benefit of daily dialogue with my Principal regarding curriculum, tweaking, add-ons, students requiring additional assistance, students able to move ahead at a different pace, etc. I was not 'locked in' to a specific set of books that had been ordered in June and that were 'mine' till the following June. In my 'school' classrooms and in my homeschool classroom, I leave no stone unturned in my attempt to find what works best for a particular student. I have stated in other posts that I could name my former students who would have loved MCT and for whom it would have been a great fit. I can also name the students for whom something else would be a better fit and MCT would not have worked well for them at all. I've rambled through all that to say that a widely-used Grammar curric that is frequently written about here is one that I did use earlier this school year. This curric WAS NOT EVER going to work for my twins -- ever -- and I dreaded opening the book every day I found it so not to my style of teaching my own children. If it had been a good fit for them, I would have used it and used it happily....as I've used materials in the classroom that I found less than I would have liked YET a good fit for a student. So, the short of it is that I find it 'offensive (?)' when MCT users are 'demonized.'

That being said, I knew nothing of the MCT hype when I ordered. I only knew that some individuals here were very happy with it; I researched and it did indeed sound as if it would address many LA issues that my children and I were experiencing. Bandwagon? I am inclined to think not. Frankly, I would characterize it as.....well, I really don't know what I would call someone dismissing another's curriculum decision as 'jumping on the bandwagon,' 'drinking the kool-aid,' 'they just want the flavor of the month,' etc. I don't think that any good ever comes from those statements. I had also asked here in August, I think, regarding LA curric as the materials the children and I had started with were not a good fit for us. Prior to MCT, I had used two different curricula for Grammar/LA with my twins -- I tend not to read the threads that reference those as it is my experience that b/c those did not work for me and my children, that is not a reason to summarily dismiss them as 'yuck' to others.

There are so many individuals who share very, very helpful information here - I have learned so much about LCC, CW, JAG, R&S, MCT, History programs, a dozen different Math programs, and numerous Latin programs. I find the reliable feedback shared here to be quite valuable - maybe some little worthwhile snippet isn't germane to my children but it certainly may be something that comes up in a conversation I may have with another mom at some point.

I'm getting off my soapboax now --

Edited February 3, 2010 by MariannNOVA

[kalanamak]

I find the reliable feedback shared here to be quite valuable - maybe some little worthwhile snippet isn't germane to my children but it certainly may be something that comes up in a conversation I may have with another mom at some point.

 

 

I consider homeschooling my second, part-time job, and I take my work seriously. Until I feel completely at home in the saddle, I read about all kinds of curriculum. You just never know.

 

Plus, it gives me a little something more in common with people who are very nice homeschoolers but whom I don't know from Adam. Oh, you're using Abeka, well we can chat about that because I have some clue about it, etc.

[GoVanGogh]

It is with much fear that I enter this 'conversation.' :001_huh: But I wanted to comment on an aspect of MCT being targeted toward 'gifted' that I don't recall being mentioned.

 

Background: I have no idea if DS is 'gifted,' but he is a very quick learner, highly visual and very creative. :tongue_smilie:

We started out with First Language Lessons two years ago and worked about 3/4 the way through the book. DS hated every minute of it. He didn't need the repetition. He could tell me what a noun was - and apply that knowledge - with one lesson.

I bought Primary Language Lessons and tried to alternate that in with our LA. He hated it, too. (We made it through the first half the book.)

 

DS was to the point of hating "grammar," though he loves language.

I had looked at MCT over a year ago, but decided against it. Then after reading several posts here, I decided to look again - and bought it.

We started using it in January.

DS loves it.

Yes, it is a book that he could go off and read in an hour and 'know' it all.

But we are taking our time going through the book - and sit on the couch and talk about lanaguage.

 

What DS likes about the book -- the color, the pictures -- the design and layout appeals to his creative side. It engages that part of his brain in a way that FLL and PLL never did.

What I like about the book -- seeing my son's eyes light up when he talks about words and how to use them.

I don't know if MCT is targeted toward "artsy" children, but it has been a hit with my artsy boy.

[MariannNOVA]

It is with much fear that I enter this 'conversation\

 

 

' Here you go -- use this!

 

 

But I wanted to comment on an aspect of MCT being targeted toward 'gifted' that I don't recall being mentioned.

 

Background: I have no idea if DS is 'gifted,' but he is a very quick learner, highly visual and very creative. :tongue_smilie:

We started out with First Language Lessons two years ago and worked about 3/4 the way through the book. DS hated every minute of it. He didn't need the repetition. He could tell me what a noun was - and apply that knowledge - with one lesson.

I bought Primary Language Lessons and tried to alternate that in with our LA. He hated it, too. (We made it through the first half the book.)

 

DS was to the point of hating "grammar," though he loves language. My experience here with DS and his twin sister.

I had looked at MCT over a year ago, but decided against it. Then after reading several posts here, I decided to look again - and bought it.

We started using it in January.

DS loves it.

Yes, it is a book that he could go off and read in an hour and 'know' it all.

But we are taking our time going through the book - and sit on the couch and talk about lanaguage. We are doing this as well - which is 'time' that I love!

 

What DS likes about the book -- the color, the pictures -- the design and layout appeals to his creative side. This is SO true for both of my 9 yr olds. It engages that part of his brain in a way that FLL and PLL never did.

What I like about the book -- seeing my son's eyes light up when he talks about words and how to use them. Yes - happens here with all three children.

I don't know if MCT is targeted toward "artsy" children, but it has been a hit with my artsy boy.

I don't know the answer to that either -- it is a hit with all three of mine -- and all three (the older DD and my youngest DS imparticular) are particularly 'artsy.'

 

BTW: MCT sent an email to the MCT YAHOO email group yesterday -- what a gracious, articulate, gracious (did I say that already?) individual.

[melmichigan]

My son is in CTY but I didn't see MCT teaching any classes...wasn't it Northwestern's CTD program?

 

That will teach me not to preview my posts. My DD is part of Northwestern too, you think I could keep it straight. http://web.mac.com/mith/iWeb/Consultant/Online%20Class.html is the reference from his site, and http://www.rfwp.com/mctbiog.php is the link from his bio on RFP. My many aplogies, especially since I didn't catch it and it's twelve pages later. :blush:

[MariannNOVA]

That will teach me not to preview my posts. My DD is part of Northwestern too, you think I could keep it straight. http://web.mac.com/mith/iWeb/Consultant/Online%20Class.html is the reference from his site, and http://www.rfwp.com/mctbiog.php is the link from his bio on RFP. My many aplogies, especially since I didn't catch it and it's twelve pages later. :blush:

 

Not a problem -- an MCT thread can grow to 12 pages in a nanosecond!

[swimmermom3]

Look, I think attacking people is attacking people and bad form. If somebody shoots off their mouth about something they know little about, it's usually pretty obvious. If it irks you, you correct it by giving the correct information or stating your EXPERIENCE, not by attacking the person. I think that's the only beef people have had with responses like that. No one minds being corrected or challenged, only attacked. I'm not even saying who is attacking or that anyone is. I'm just pointing out a general principle. It seems to go by the wayside occasionally when people get defensive. :)

 

And you know, it's kind of funny to me to think that someone thinks that their own lack of a certain feeling means someone else can't, doesn't, or shouldn't have it. You just haven't had it yourself. It's the could I/should I haunting feeling. It's when it's in your craw and you can't decide. Or it's when you researched it so much it's in your craw still and you need more time to talk about it. ;) Again, I figure leave people alone. I have great confidence in the readers of the board to sort out who is saying what and why. Different viewpoints will resonate with different people. It's not like there's any one right thing here.

 

Oh, and when people really bug you, you can just blacklist them for yourself and block all their posts. It's a great thing. I started doing it when I was pregnant, simply because I seemed to have a temper problem. Now I enjoy it as my own private peace tool. When I want to read posts, I read them. When I don't, they just plain don't appear. :)

 

Elizabeth, thanks for the much-needed perspective.:D

[GoVanGogh]

 

BTW: MCT sent an email to the MCT YAHOO email group yesterday -- what a gracious, articulate, gracious (did I say that already?) individual.

I read "Classics in the Classroom" and immediately fell in love with the man. ;)

[MariannNOVA]

I read "Classics in the Classroom" and immediately fell in love with the man. ;)

 

Thank you for posting that. He had me at "I"

 

 

[Lovedtodeath]

Hum. Maybe the program works for us becase I do see so much to discuss on the pages. Without that discussion, the program wouldn't work. Then again, the first few times I looked at the samples online I didn't see the big deal either. Come to think of it, I have no idea why I decided to try MCT. I'm just glad I did.

 

One of the biggest differences I've seen between MCT's LA materials and other programs I've looked at is his obvious enthusiasm and, yes, love of the material. My LA advanced child appreciates working with a kindred spirit who shares her sentiments.

 

I'd characterize the elementary program as engaging and comprehensive, especially with the inclusion of Caesar's English I and II and the Poetry series. However, given what I've read here and on gifted mail lists, I think most people would characterize the middle school program as rigorous, and, with the exception of the poetry series, less whimsical (and really, who wants poetry without a bit of whimsy?). Like most of us here, Mr. Thompson expects nothing less than excellence from his students and sets very high standards. But yes, his program is both teacher intensive and teacher dependent in terms of feedback. Students of parents and teachers who cannot provide this scaffolding will not see the full benefit of the program.

 

These quotes have me scared. I have a 2x daughter and I am realizing that as a former art and math tutor I can't seem to teach these well to my own child... actually, while I am rambling I will point out that she did very, very well when we weren't using a teacher's guide, but just had guidelines to teach from Accelerated Acheivement and had a go. I am now on my 3rd math curriculum after they all seemed to work for a while. Sigh. Anyway, my point is that I doubt my own ability to teach a skill subject, to look at the page and know what to discuss... so is MCT not for me? I have a very unmotivated, intelligent, precocious child who gets less intelligent and less motivated every year, and I have a feeling that not using gifted materials with her my have something to do with it.

[swimmermom3]

These quotes have me scared. I have a 2x daughter and I am realizing that as a former art and math tutor I can't seem to teach these well to my own child... actually, while I am rambling I will point out that she did very, very well when we weren't using a teacher's guide, but just had guidelines to teach from Accelerated Acheivement and had a go. I am now on my 3rd math curriculum after they all seemed to work for a while. Sigh. Anyway, my point is that I doubt my own ability to teach a skill subject, to look at the page and know what to discuss... so is MCT not for me? I have a very unmotivated, intelligent, precocious child who gets less intelligent and less motivated every year, and I have a feeling that not using gifted materials with her my have something to do with it.

 

Carmen, the pages aren't "scripted" but the discussions seem to flow. It feels very natural. This probably isn't helpful but I find it to be one of the easiest things I teach.

[Kuovonne]

I doubt my own ability to teach a skill subject, to look at the page and know what to discuss... so is MCT not for me?

 

Hum, if you don't know what to discuss, it might be hard for you to implement MCT. For example, in Grammar Island there are lots of funny little stories used to illustrate a particular grammar concept with "words" taking the role of characters. You are supposed to read and discuss the story. It's easy to know what concepts to look for because you've just learned them. However, you have to be able to see the concepts in the story without an answer key.

 

she did very, very well when we weren't using a teacher's guide, but just had guidelines to teach from

 

MCT has guidelines, but no script, so maybe it will work for you.

 

I have a 2x daughter ...

 

Your daughter is seven? That's still on the young end for starting MCT.

Even though some start MCT at that age, you can certainly wait.

[MariannNOVA]

Carmen, the pages aren't "scripted" but the discussions seem to flow. It feels very natural. This probably isn't helpful but I find it to be one of the easiest things I teach.

 

And for me, the subject to which I most look forward.

 

(LISA: Can we have food now?)

[Capt_Uhura]

Corraleno (Jackie) and Mariannova - Well said!!!! :iagree:

 

Yes, MCT is the subject I now most look forward to. We start with it and it puts everyone in a good mood. Unfortunately, we're spending a lot of time on language arts now - may have to start setting a timer. :001_smile:

[melmichigan]

These quotes have me scared. I have a 2x daughter and I am realizing that as a former art and math tutor I can't seem to teach these well to my own child... actually, while I am rambling I will point out that she did very, very well when we weren't using a teacher's guide, but just had guidelines to teach from Accelerated Acheivement and had a go. I am now on my 3rd math curriculum after they all seemed to work for a while. Sigh. Anyway, my point is that I doubt my own ability to teach a skill subject, to look at the page and know what to discuss... so is MCT not for me? I have a very unmotivated, intelligent, precocious child who gets less intelligent and less motivated every year, and I have a feeling that not using gifted materials with her my have something to do with it.

 

I can't speak for you personally but can share my experience thus far. (I also doubt my ability to teach and have my DD signed up with G3 for the grammar and vocabulary portions so that I know she is discussing this with a knowledgable person at least once a week.) I have always struggled with teaching LA, I fail to understand a lot of it and couldn't diagram a sentence to save my life. We started Grammar Town last month to prep for this class. I am a month in now, and started Grammar Voyage with my DD yesterday. All I can say is that now I am "getting it". I still check myself with the TE's, but I am gaining confidence in my abilities. I have never been able to teach without all the answers right in front of me in grammar, even when my DD was in third grade. We put off starting VE for two weeks when I didn't realize the answers were in a seperate book. She even attended PS for LA for a year, until this last month, because of my fear in my ability to teach it. :) Maybe it's my age, maybe it's the motivation to learn, maybe it's the materials, which we are both enjoying. Whatever it is it's working. That doesn't mean I wasn't scared to death when the materials first arrived. It wasn't until I sat down with my DD and began reading through it that things started really making sense, it seems to flow naturally. I do have all the TE's.

Edited February 3, 2010 by melmichigan

[MariannNOVA]

Corraleno (Jackie) and Mariannova - Well said!!!! :iagree:

 

Yes, MCT is the subject I now most look forward to. We start with it and it puts everyone in a good mood. Unfortunately, we're spending a lot of time on language arts now - may have to start setting a timer. :001_smile:

 

Same here - in fact, if DH is around, he chimes in...and wants us to SHARE our books with him...

 

Can we eat now?!

[Handmaiden]

That will teach me not to preview my posts. My DD is part of Northwestern too, you think I could keep it straight. http://web.mac.com/mith/iWeb/Consultant/Online%20Class.html is the reference from his site, and http://www.rfwp.com/mctbiog.php is the link from his bio on RFP. My many aplogies, especially since I didn't catch it and it's twelve pages later. :blush:

 

Does CTD also require testing for online classes like CTY? I would love for ds to take one of MCT's classes, but I don't know if I want to take more tests to qualify for another program.

[swimmermom3]

I can't speak for you personally but can share my experience thus far. (I also doubt my ability to teach and have my DD signed up with G3 for the grammar and vocabulary portions so that I know she is discussing this with a knowledgable person at least once a week.) I have always struggled with teaching LA, I fail to understand a lot of it and couldn't diagram a sentence to save my life. We started Grammar Town last month to prep for this class. I am a month in now, and started Grammar Voyage with my DD yesterday. All I can say is that now I am "getting it". I still check myself with the TE's, but I am gaining confidence in my abilities. I have never been able to teach without all the answers right in front of me in grammar, even when my DD was in third grade. We put off starting VE for two weeks when I didn't realize the answers were in a seperate book. She even attended PS for LA for a year, until this last month, because of my fear in my ability to teach it. :) Maybe it's my age, maybe it's the motivation to learn, maybe it's the materials, which we are both enjoying. Whatever it is it's working. That doesn't mean I wasn't scared to death when the materials first arrived. It wasn't until I sat down with my DD and began reading through it that things started really making sense, it seems to flow naturally. I do have all the TE's.

 

:grouphug: You are an awesome mom! It's hard to sit on the couch and keep the books in your lap when your knees are knocking together.

Edited February 3, 2010 by swimmermom3
typo

[Capt_Uhura]

Just to stray from the subject of gifted and MCT LA ..... since we've taken several diversions so far.....

 

My 1st grader is doing his Practice Island sentence as I type this. The sentence used the word "addled" which he wasn't familiar so we looked it up in the dictionary - make unable to think clearly, confused. He commented that the donkey in Sylvester's Magic Pebble, which he read over a week ago, was addled b/c he was unable to think clearly when he saw the tiger and wished himself a rock. He then added that addled must be an adjective since it's modifying albatross. You just gotta love it! :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

Oh, and when people really bug you, you can just blacklist them for yourself and block all their posts. It's a great thing. I started doing it when I was pregnant, simply because I seemed to have a temper problem. Now I enjoy it as my own private peace tool. When I want to read posts, I read them. When I don't, they just plain don't appear. :)

That doesn't work, because I can still see their user name.:lol:

 

Just to stray from the subject of gifted and MCT LA ..... since we've taken several diversions so far.....

 

My 1st grader is doing his Practice Island sentence as I type this. The sentence used the word "addled" which he wasn't familiar so we looked it up in the dictionary - make unable to think clearly, confused. He commented that the donkey in Sylvester's Magic Pebble, which he read over a week ago, was addled b/c he was unable to think clearly when he saw the tiger and wished himself a rock. He then added that addled must be an adjective since it's modifying albatross. You just gotta love it! :001_smile:

This is the type of thing that I can see DD is capable of... this is just the kind of post that makes me want to buy MCT. Is this the Island level or the town level? DH will be very upset if I spend the $ right now, so I am looking at that free one earlier in the thread first. ;) Edited February 3, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[nmoira]

 

That doesn't work, because I can still see their user name.:lol:

:rofl:

[Capt_Uhura]

Lovedtodeath - this is Island level. If I only had DS6.5, I wouldn't have started with him but I bought Island level to do with my DS9.5. He would have been OK w/ Town Level but since I needed Island level for DS6.5 eventually, I thought I'd get my feet wet first with Island level. DS6.5 sits in on most lessons and couldn't resist snuggle up time on the couch with mommy. He absolutely loves it. He often does MCT analysis on sentences he does for copywork and dictation in WWE2.

[Lovedtodeath]

Lovedtodeath - this is Island level. If I only had DS6.5, I wouldn't have started with him but I bought Island level to do with my DS9.5. He would have been OK w/ Town Level but since I needed Island level for DS6.5 eventually, I thought I'd get my feet wet first with Island level. DS6.5 sits in on most lessons and couldn't resist snuggle up time on the couch with mommy. He absolutely loves it. He often does MCT analysis on sentences he does for copywork and dictation in WWE2.

Thank you!

 

Totally OT and TMI: Right now I am at the computer because her bad attitude combined with ADHD has me yelling to the point of giving myself a headache. :svengo::blushing:

 

I am so frustrated that we have used over an hour for what should have been a 10 minute Bible study.

[Capt_Uhura]

:grouphug:

[Handmaiden]

Does CTD also require testing for online classes like CTY? I would love for ds to take one of MCT's classes, but I don't know if I want to take more tests to qualify for another program.

 

Disregard my previous post...I checked with CTD and they will accept a portfolio in lieu of testing, so I can just submit his CTY scores.

[PeterPan]

Halibut, the natural prozac. ;)

[swimmermom3]

Halibut, the natural prozac. ;)

 

Immediate change in dinner menu (if we had a menu). :D

[Elinor Everywhere]

My apologies -- I did not mean to hijack -- (the hummer thing)

 

I think that your post that started this thread was particularly thought-provoking for me as I had also wondered about the Gifted tag as regards MCT.

 

Thanks for articulating that.

 

Mariann,

 

No worries, I just wanna know when I get my Hummer! :D

 

As to the rest, I just love MCT so far, and my kids are more excited about the English language then I've seen them in some time. What hidden depths are in these books from what I first thought upon perusing a sample! We have ALL learned more about poetry in 4 weeks than in the previous 6 years. I was only worried that somebody wouldn't give it a try if their kids weren't labeled "gifted", as mine aren't. This curriculum is for every kid who likes it and enjoys it and learns from it and retains it;it's only the pacing that has to vary.

[MariannNOVA]

Mariann,

 

No worries, I just wanna know when I get my Hummer! :D

 

As to the rest, I just love MCT so far, and my kids are more excited about the English language then I've seen them in some time. What hidden depths are in these books from what I first thought upon perusing a sample! We have ALL learned more about poetry in 4 weeks than in the previous 6 years. I was only worried that somebody wouldn't give it a try if their kids weren't labeled "gifted", as mine aren't. This curriculum is for every kid who likes it and enjoys it and learns from it and retains it;it's only the pacing that has to vary.

 

Elinor -- I think you've summed it up in a rather succinct fashion...(I've highlighted in red).

 

About the Hummer, we are expecting a snowstorm of 'legendary' (the forecasters word, not mine) proportion so the Hummer will make its way to you as soon as all the white stuff goes away. You 'do' know how all that hummer nonsense got started don't you?*

 

Thanks again for your graciousness --

* -- http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142955&highlight=MCT I am fairly certain it all got started here.;)

Edited February 4, 2010 by MariannNOVA

[mlbuchina]

However, when someone says "I need a good whole-to-parts LA program", or "my kid finds grammar boring, isn't there something better?" (both of which were recent post topics), I will happily suggest MCT.

 

This is my first time hearing about MCT. Would you really say that it is a "whole-to-parts" LA program? Are we not supposed to stay away from whole-to-parts based curriculum in a classical education? I haven't looked very hard at the website or samples for MCT, but the little I saw didn't look like whole-to-parts. I could very well be wrong, though...:D

 

What little I have seen has me interested to know more. I also like the looks of Analitical Grammar. Would anyone compair and contrast? TIA!

[MariannNOVA]

This is my first time hearing about MCT. Would you really say that it is a "whole-to-parts" LA program? Are we not supposed to stay away from whole-to-parts based curriculum in a classical education? I haven't looked very hard at the website or samples for MCT, but the little I saw didn't look like whole-to-parts. I could very well be wrong, though...:D

 

What little I have seen has me interested to know more. I also like the looks of Analitical Grammar. Would anyone compair and contrast? TIA!

 

I am writing this purely for the sake of laughter: RUN! FASTER!And, someone just began a thread regarding MCT, the classical issues, and how it perhaps balances.

[patchfire]

This is my first time hearing about MCT. Would you really say that it is a "whole-to-parts" LA program? Are we not supposed to stay away from whole-to-parts based curriculum in a classical education?

 

The exhortation is actually to avoid whole-to-parts in terms of grammar stage, but that whole-to-parts becomes more appropriate in logic stage. Hmmm... one could make the argument that this is part of the reason it's marketed to gifted kids. Someone (I think abbeyej) once wrote the difference with a gifted kid is they often enter logic stage early or just leap over grammar stage entirely.

[MariannNOVA]

The exhortation is actually to avoid whole-to-parts in terms of grammar stage, but that whole-to-parts becomes more appropriate in logic stage. Hmmm... one could make the argument that this is part of the reason it's marketed to gifted kids. Someone (I think abbeyej) once wrote the difference with a gifted kid is they often enter logic stage early or just leap over grammar stage entirely.

 

Thank you -- A perfect example of what is possible if one is not googling in an effort to find the perfect smiley.

[PeterPan]

Nobody says to avoid whole-to-parts instruction for EVERYTHING, just reading. When you use a whole word method in reading and do not explicitly teach the parts (phonics), some children never infer the parts, never get them. But for history or other subjects, going from whole to parts is just a method of teaching to suit the learning and thinking style of the dc. (big picture learner) Now I will say the potential downfall of always trying to be so global is they fail to nail the components. For instance, I was reading on the MCT yahoo group this morning about kids not nailing nouns fuctioning as adjectives, possessive pronoun adjectives, etc. My dd, who has been taught with the most boring components to whole program I can think of (Shurley) has these things NAILED. And a bright dc thrives when you give them components and let them apply them to more challenging situations.

 

Actually, all I think MCT is trying to do in his grammar is do that very thing, to teach the components upfront and let them apply. I'm just pointing out that boring programs have their place. Done judiciously, a little bit each year, a lot gets accomplished, painlessly, effectively.

 

You don't need Analytical Grammar with a 6 or 7 yo. You don't even need JAG. I'd do the memory work in FLL and then look for the 3rd or 4th gr program of your choice. MCT would be fine, but R&S, Shurley, etc. are good too. You only need a dab of grammar when you're doing it in conjunction with other things that hit grammar (latin, your writing program, etc.). And although FLL needs tweaking for some kids and compacting, it's still the bees' knees for nailing the definitions and basic memory work to give them a solid foundation to move forward. I can't imagine skipping it.

[Capt_Uhura]

I had the discussion about possessive adjectives and pronouns with a friend before we were using MCT so it's not specific to that particular program. I pulled out the Warriner's grammar book and this is also discussed in there. There appears to be two camps. I think folks who are having the question are just starting out w/ MCT at the Island level so you can hardly expect kids who have worked in a grammar book for 2weeks to get all the nuances. We've finished Grammar Island and both of my boys questioned whether the word was a pronoun or functioning as an adjective b/c MCT has taught to look at the role of the word in the sentence.

 

Capt_Uhura

[nmoira]

 

I had the discussion about possessive adjectives and pronouns with a friend before we were using MCT so it's not specific to that particular program. I pulled out the Warriner's grammar book and this is also discussed in there. There appears to be two camps. I think folks who are having the question are just starting out w/ MCT at the Island level so you can hardly expect kids who have worked in a grammar book for 2weeks to get all the nuances. We've finished Grammar Island and both of my boys questioned whether the word was a pronoun or functioning as an adjective b/c MCT has taught to look at the role of the word in the sentence.

Thanks, I was just about to respond to that.

[MariannNOVA]

I had the discussion about possessive adjectives and pronouns with a friend before we were using MCT so it's not specific to that particular program. I pulled out the Warriner's grammar book and this is also discussed in there. There appears to be two camps. I think folks who are having the question are just starting out w/ MCT at the Island level so you can hardly expect kids who have worked in a grammar book for 2weeks to get all the nuances. We've finished Grammar Island and both of my boys questioned whether the word was a pronoun or functioning as an adjective b/c MCT has taught to look at the role of the word in the sentence.

 

Capt_Uhura

 

I maybe completely off-base here, but didn't MCT address this issue just yesterday on the YAHOO email list?

[Capt_Uhura]

Yes he did. It appears he switched from the old camp that their is a pronoun to the new camp that it's a possessive adjective.

 

The sentence is question is:

Two puppies wagged their tails happily.

 

Both my boys labeled "their" as an adjective since it's answering the question "whose tail."

 

I see Strunk and White calls them adjectival forms of a pronoun whereas More Nitty Gritty Grammar leaves them as pronouns.

 

Here's what I posted:

I looked up this issue in English Composition and Grammar by Warriner. He states that "When you are identifying parts of speech and you encounter a noun used as an adjective, label it as an adjective." The examples given are "sofa cushion," "hotel lobby," and "bread pudding." However, regarding pronouns he says, "Some of the possessive forms--my, your, his, her, its, our, their --are used before a noun in the same way that adjectives are used to limit the meaning of a noun: my parents, your home, her coat, etc. They are possessive pronouns functioning as adjectives. In this book these words are called pronouns. However, your teacher may prefer to have you call them possessive adjectives." So he took the opposite stance w/ pronouns than he did w/ nouns acting as adjectives. I personally think it's easier to think of them as adjectives.