Financial Aid for Undocumented Minors?

[astrid]

I'm sitting here at work in my Adult Education office, and listening to a discussion on my local public radio station about undocumented teens in Connecticut who are successful high school graduates who came to the USA as young children with their parents and want to go to college but are unable to do so because their undocumented status precludes them from obtaining financial aid.

 

There are lots of callers who are respectfully sharing their thoughts on both sides of the issue. Their comments run the gamut from abolishing illegal status for ALL undocumented residents to massive roundups and deportation of illegals.

 

I work with illegal aliens every day in my line of work. It's a big issue for Adult Education in my state. I'm presenting at a conference in March and would like to touch on this topic a bit, since it's relevant to our profession.

 

I have some thoughts, but I'm interested in what you have to say. Could we discuss this, respectfully and thoughtfully?

 

astrid

[Parrothead]

I"m going to be one of the harsh ones. These children and/or their parents broke the laws of the US. Some kind of consequence for criminal activity needs to be implemented.

 

People in any country illegally need to go back to their country of origin and fill out the paperwork, pay the fees, etc and come immigrate legally.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I have mixed feeling about this issue. OTOH I can understand why someone from south of the birder would want to come here. I would probably try to do the same if I lived down there:( I also believe that many illegal immigrants are hard workers. I also think that it may be unfeasible to deport the millions that are here.

 

OTOH, I believe that we cannot just open the flood gates and let any and all into our country since I believe that we will become a third world nation as a result. I do think that there should be a wall of some sort on the southern border whether is be physical or patrolled as a deterrent. I do believe that if they are caught crossing the border that they should be sent back without jumping through to many hoops so to speak. I also think that if an undocumented immigrant is caught doing a crime, then they should be sent back. I also think that children born to people here illegally should not be automatic citizens since that only encourages illegal behavior. I do believe though that if someone if here on a legal visa and gives birth, then their child should be a citizen.

 

All in all, I think our country is struggling to meet our own needs and therefore, cannot afford to open the flood gates. I do believe that we should look carefully at any policies, treaties, and what not that may encourage illegal immigration. For example, I read once that NAFTA not only may be hurting our workers, but it may also be hurting their workers. The article suggested that after NAFTA passed, illegal immigration soared due to a loss of jobs south of the border. Now , I confess I am not an expert on this, but if we do have any treaties and what not that our causing problems, then that should be looked at IMHO.

Edited January 12, 2010 by priscilla

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Oh, I did not address the issue of those teens here illegally through no fault of their own trying to get financial aide. I honesty do not know what to think. I tend to think that with scarce resources here that they should not be eligible. I know that Americans would not be afforded the same treatment in other countries from what I understand. OTOH, I can see that they are here through no fault of their own. I guess I am wondering is where do we draw the line especially when it feels like our country is not doing as well as it was 30-40 years ago:(? I believe that the American dream is much harder to achieve now than it was for my Grandfather:(

[jujsky]

While I feel bad that these students who are working hard and succeeding may not be able to go to school, I also realize that there is only so much financial aid to go around. While these students did nothing wrong, their parents are here illegally. Why should a legal student miss out on financial aid because it's going to someone who is here illegally? We pay taxes, illegals often don't, so by giving these students financial aid I think we are further feeding into the problem and rewarding bad behavior.

 

Personally (and this will probably sound harsh to many of you) I think resident status should be determined before a child is admitted to public school. If they are not here legally, our tax dollars should not go towards educating them. Why should we reward people who break the law? Why should we make it appealing for them to come here illegally? Rewarding the problem is only creating more incentives for more people to come here illegally and further drain our system.

 

Disclaimer: My DH was an immigrant so this is a hot-button issue for me, and I have extremely strong opinions about it. He and his family came to this country legally. They had to jump through a billion hoops to do do so, and they had to work extremely hard when they first got here, but they did it. They are not and never have been a drain on the system. They got whatever jobs they could get when they came here and worked their way up to bigger and better things. FIL was taken advantage of when he came here by an unscrupulous employer who saw that he was a highly experienced engineer, and realized as a new immigrant he wouldn't question anything. He had him working for 2 or 3 years for 60-80 hours/week for very little pay (salaried position -- he could get away with it). There were nights he slept at the office. MIL is an extremely intelligent woman with a biology degree. She worked in a grocery store for the first couple of years. DH initially had to take a job at a public library to help support them. They received some help from Jewish Family Services when they first arrived, but never took a day of welfare. They trash-picked in NYC to find mattresses to sleep on. Their lives were not sunshine and roses, but they worked hard and are now very successful here. They pay taxes. They became citizens so they could vote. They took ESL classes so they could better assimilate into the culture here. They are productive members of society. There are ways to get in here legally. There is an entire lottery system which people can apply to annually in addition to applying to enter for political asylum. I'm sure there are other legal ways that I'm unfamiliar with as well. People who do not choose to enter legally should be given nothing. They are already showing disdain for our country by breaking the law to come here. By helping them we are taking away from the people we SHOULD be helping -- the countless citizens and legal immigrants who are struggling. It may sound mean that I think that should extend to their children who are innocent of their parents' decisions, but oh well.

[astrid]

These children and/or their parents broke the laws of the US. Some kind of consequence for criminal activity needs to be implemented.

 

But did the children have any choice in the matter, or were they a victim of circumstance?

 

Is overstaying a tourist visa with their parents something they had control over?

 

Could the children, prior to the expiration of their visa, acknowledge that the law required them to leave and then do so?

 

What about children who are here because of human trafficking (there are several of those here in my state.)

 

Just asking for the sake of discussion.

 

Thanks for your input, everyone!

 

astrid

Edited January 12, 2010 by astrid
spelling!

[astrid]

We pay taxes, illegals often don't, so by giving these students financial aid I think we are further feeding into the problem and rewarding bad behavior.

 

 

Just to clarify-- you feel that providing some financial aid would be rewarding the bad behavior of illegal immigration or overstaying visas, not working hard and finishing high school, right?

 

 

Personally (and this will probably sound harsh to many of you) I think resident status should be determined before a child is admitted to public school. If they are not here legally, our tax dollars should not go towards educating them. Why should we reward people who break the law?

 

Again, to clarify--- you mean that we should not allow young children who have illegal status to attend public school because it creates a drain on taxpayers, is that correct? As in preschool/kindergarten? Do you feel that withholding education from an entire segment would create a GREATER drain on taxpayes as those individuals become illiterate adults, incapable of holding a job or paying taxes in their own right? Do you worry that this would lead to more widespread uneployment and all the social ills that are part and parcel of it?

 

 

Disclaimer: My DH was an immigrant so this is a hot-button issue for me, and I have extremely strong opinions about it. He and his family came to this country legally. They had to jump through a billion hoops to do do so, and they had to work extremely hard when they first got here, but they did it. They are not and never have been a drain on the system. They got whatever jobs they could get when they came here and worked their way up to bigger and better things. FIL was taken advantage of when he came here by an unscrupulous employer who saw that he was a highly experienced engineer, and realized as a new immigrant he wouldn't question anything. He had him working for 2 or 3 years for 60-80 hours/week for very little pay (salaried position -- he could get away with it). There were nights he slept at the office. MIL is an extremely intelligent woman with a biology degree. She worked in a grocery store for the first couple of years.

 

So if your FIL was working as an engineer when he first came to this country, he was educated already, is that a correct assumption? As is your MIL?

 

DH initially had to take a job at a public library to help support them. They received some help from Jewish Family Services when they first arrived, but never took a day of welfare. They trash-picked in NYC to find mattresses to sleep on. Their lives were not sunshine and roses, but they worked hard and are now very successful here.

 

I applaud them.

 

 

They are already showing disdain for our country by breaking the law to come here.

 

Disdain? Or desperation?

 

By helping them we are taking away from the people we SHOULD be helping -- the countless citizens and legal immigrants who are struggling. It may sound mean that I think that should extend to their children who are innocent of their parents' decisions, but oh well.

 

If you are a part of organized religion, do you feel that this belief is in opposition to the teachings of your religion? If so, how do you reconcile that?

 

Again, just asking for the purposes of discussion, not passing judgement.

Thank you for your thoughts!

 

astrid

[Heather in AL]

Sorry.... changed my mind.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Heather in AL

[astrid]

Heather, thank you for your reply. I'd just like to ask, (and you don't have to answer!) whether you came from an English-speaking country or not. Here, we have mostly Asian and Spanish illegals (though not too many from Mexico.)

 

astrid

[Perry]

Several of my neighbors complain frequently about the illegal immigrant problem. Guess who they hired this summer when they needed a new roof. Saved them a couple hundred bucks.

 

We went with the company that employs US citizens, pays them a decent wage, and provides them with insurance. It cost more, but I have a clean conscience.

 

I think it's a complex problem and I don't know where I stand. But the hypocrisy just infuriates me.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Financial aid is awarded based on need. If I am at the threshhold of that need (almost over it) and they accept illegal immigrants that may have significantly less income and in fact probably no irs records, then the illegal immigrant will get the financial aid. I have a family of 6 (4 kids), I pay my taxes, and my kids will apply for financial aid. Would I be upset if we were turned down and an illegal immigrant was approved and my child had to put off college or work a job during college or something of that sort to attend b/c of lack of financial aid? Yes.

I think they should have to apply for citizenship when they are of the age to understand. If they come over as a young child, then they should apply for citizenship as soon as they can.

I don't think our struggling country and economy should take on this daunting task to educate citizens of another country in essence. Our state just cut the budget and secondary education is what got cut the most. So the financial aid would go to those with the most need. If someone is here illegally, they normally don't file taxes and get paid under the table. Their children would have an unfair advantage b/c they would have no provable income and would get full financial aid.

[fivetails]

I"m going to be one of the harsh ones. These children and/or their parents broke the laws of the US. Some kind of consequence for criminal activity needs to be implemented.

 

 

The parents, sure. But how did the children break the law? By being born in the states, or being brought there by their parents? It's not like the child could tell his folks that he wasn't moving with them. :001_huh:

[Danestress]

If someone can not afford to pay for college, is it the federal government's place to collect taxes and give them a grant which does not require them to pay back? I realize that taxpayers support schools for all children through taxes, and it doesn't bother me that my tax dollars are used to pay for someone's 5th grader to go to school, whether that student has a legal status or not. I can more directly see how all of society benefits from having universal education and a high literacy rate.

 

But at some point, the costs to society may outweigh the benefits. I don't know where that point is, but I wonder if taxpayers really get their money's worth out of sending kids to college who can't or won't win academic scholarships, take out loans, or find other sources of money for tuition. I have no problem with private scholarships, loan programs, state support of universities, and student work programs. I question whether we really need all these college graduates, though, and I would be interested in exploring whether federal aid should require high academic achievement in high school. I always told my own son that I would not be willing to pay for a C student to go to college - that I didn't think that was a great use of family funds. So he managed to be a better student then that. I definitely don't feel like it's my job to pay for anyone else's C student to go to college whether that person is a legal immigrant or not.

 

 

Just to open up the conversation a little ......

[astrid]

Thanks for your thoughts. Just to clarify, the guests on the program I was listening to cannot get any financial aid LOANS. It's not free money they were looking for, just the chance to take out a student loan and pay it back like other kids in their graduating classes. Without a Social Security number they are unable to do so.

 

astrid

[Parrothead]

But did the children have any choice in the matter, or were they a victim of circumstance?

 

Is overstaying a tourist visa with their parents something they had control over?

 

Could the children, prior to the expiration of their visa, acknowledge that the law required them to leave and then do so?

 

What about children who are here because of human trafficking (there are several of those here in my state.)

 

Just asking for the sake of discussion.

 

Thanks for your input, everyone!

 

astrid

The children may be here because of their parents, but someone here has contact with these children, has an address, should make some phone calls to the authorities. The authorities should be allowed to do their jobs and enforce the laws. If you want the laws changed so we have open borders, then work to change the laws. Don't be an accessory to an ongoing illegal act.

[Parrothead]

 

Again, to clarify--- you mean that we should not allow young children who have illegal status to attend public school because it creates a drain on taxpayers, is that correct? As in preschool/kindergarten? Do you feel that withholding education from an entire segment would create a GREATER drain on taxpayes as those individuals become illiterate adults, incapable of holding a job or paying taxes in their own right? Do you worry that this would lead to more widespread uneployment and all the social ills that are part and parcel of it?

I don't think children/families with an illegal status should be given any government assistance - education, medical, social services, etc. If people in this country illegally are turned in, denied services, the draw to come here in the first place would be eliminated.

 

I really think that people found to be in any country illegally should at the least be deported back to their home country.

[astrid]

If you want the laws changed so we have open borders, then work to change the laws. Don't be an accessory to an ongoing illegal act.

 

Umm...pardon me......am I reading this correctly? When did *I* state that I wanted the laws changed so we have open borders?

 

And are you accusing me of "being an accessory to an ongoing illegal act?" Or are you using a rhetorical "you?" I just listened to a radio program and brought up the subject for discussion, which has been going on quite swimmingly, I thought. I didn't expect accusation. :confused::confused:

 

astrid

[Parrothead]

The parents, sure. But how did the children break the law? By being born in the states, or being brought there by their parents? It's not like the child could tell his folks that he wasn't moving with them. :001_huh:

Anchor babies are citizens. That is why they are called anchor babies.

 

Children brought over by their parents should apply for citizenship as soon as they are able. I can't believe that a person age 18 who is looking to go on to college doesn't know that they are here illegally, and that there are things to be done before taking the next step of going to college.

[Parrothead]

Umm...pardon me......am I reading this correctly? When did *I* state that I wanted the laws changed so we have open borders?

 

And are you accusing me of "being an accessory to an ongoing illegal act?" Or are you using a rhetorical "you?" I just listened to a radio program and brought up the subject for discussion, which has been going on quite swimmingly, I thought. I didn't expect accusation. :confused::confused:

 

astrid

A rhetorical "you" Sorry.

[Melissa in FL]

Umm...pardon me......am I reading this correctly? When did *I* state that I wanted the laws changed so we have open borders?

 

And are you accusing me of "being an accessory to an ongoing illegal act?" Or are you using a rhetorical "you?" I just listened to a radio program and brought up the subject for discussion, which has been going on quite swimmingly, I thought. I didn't expect accusation. :confused::confused:

 

astrid

 

I took it to mean the Rhetorical "you". I didn't see it as an attack on you (astrid) personally at all. It certainly could have been, but I would give her the benefit of taking it as rhetorical. You (astrid) have been great at just asking different questions for clarification and not leading the discussion one way or another. Thanks for starting this topic, it's really interesting to see everyone's view!

Melissa

[astrid]

No problem. It just took me aback. :001_smile:

 

astrid

[astrid]

Thanks, Melissa. Yes, it is a great discussion-- thanks everyone!

 

astrid

[Parrothead]

No problem. It just took me aback. :001_smile:

 

astrid

;)

This subject is one of those things that gets me worked up. And I'll be the first to admit my thoughts and opinions about illegal immigrants/undocumented workers are harsh by many other people's standards.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

If someone can not afford to pay for college, is it the federal government's place to collect taxes and give them a grant which does not require them to pay back? I realize that taxpayers support schools for all children through taxes, and it doesn't bother me that my tax dollars are used to pay for someone's 5th grader to go to school, whether that student has a legal status or not. I can more directly see how all of society benefits from having universal education and a high literacy rate.

 

But at some point, the costs to society may outweigh the benefits. I don't know where that point is, but I wonder if taxpayers really get their money's worth out of sending kids to college who can't or won't win academic scholarships, take out loans, or find other sources of money for tuition. I have no problem with private scholarships, loan programs, state support of universities, and student work programs. I question whether we really need all these college graduates, though, and I would be interested in exploring whether federal aid should require high academic achievement in high school. I always told my own son that I would not be willing to pay for a C student to go to college - that I didn't think that was a great use of family funds. So he managed to be a better student then that. I definitely don't feel like it's my job to pay for anyone else's C student to go to college whether that person is a legal immigrant or not.

 

 

Just to open up the conversation a little ......

 

I think it benefits our society to have educated citizens. I am also very concerned about the sky rocketing costs of college education since I truly believe that it is becoming unaffordable for the average American citizen which is a travesty IMHO. When I went to college, I only had $5000.00 in student loans. Nowadays, I have heard of some students needing from $50,000 to $150,000 in student loans. So I guess those students will probably never own a home or have much of an American dream IMHO:001_huh: I do think that the government should take measures like more financial aide so that college is accessible to everyone and not just the very rich which I can envision happening if things continue as they have been:(.

 

As far as illegal immigrants, I do not think they should be eligible for financial aide. For those here through no fault of their own, perhaps they should be eligible for student loans.

[fivetails]

Anchor babies are citizens. That is why they are called anchor babies.

 

Children brought over by their parents should apply for citizenship as soon as they are able. I can't believe that a person age 18 who is looking to go on to college doesn't know that they are here illegally, and that there are things to be done before taking the next step of going to college.

 

anchor what? [or did you mean something else?]

 

I could believe that a person at 18 might not know something like that - I mean, if their folks kept it a secret. Lots of kids don't know all the family "dirty laundry", know what I mean?

[fivetails]

I think resident status should be determined before a child is admitted to public school.

 

Do you guys not have to show documentation when you register your kids for public school? You have to provide birth certificates here.. I assume if the child's birth certificate was from another country, the school would ask for something more....

[Heather in WI]

While I feel bad that these students who are working hard and succeeding may not be able to go to school, I also realize that there is only so much financial aid to go around. Why should a legal student miss out on financial aid because it's going to someone who is here illegally?

 

 

:iagree:

[Brilliant]

Our laws in California are fundamentally unfair. They provide for illegal immigrants who attended high school in CA (at least 2 years, I think) to get in-state tuition at state colleges (CC, UC-system, and CSU-system). This is a huge break for them, and a huge burden for California taxpayers as the cost of providing the education is not covered by these low tuition payments.

 

It is also specifically unfair to 2 groups:

 

1. US citizens from other states must pay out-of-state tuition. They want to be in California legally, but must pay a higher price than those who are here illegally.

 

2. LEGAL immigrants are not eligible, which is mind-boggling to me. We are friends with a Canadian family who is here legally. Their son was a LEGAL resident of California during his high school years. Yet, when they went to enroll in the CC, armed with the info I had passed along to her about the in-state tuition for immigrants, they discovered he was not eligible because he was here on a certain type of visa.

 

I don't know what the solution is to the illegal immigrant problem. But for starters, they should not receive benefits that specifically exclude legal residents.

[JoyfulMama]

Student loans aren't the only way to pay for higher education. Many people pay cash for one class at a time, or two classes, depending on what they can afford. May not be the fastest way, but it does get you to the finish line.

 

We have to live with the consequences of our parents decisions, whether they be positive or negative. A person of 18 can certainly apply for citizenship of their own decision, if they wish to become a full citizen. Does that put their family at risk? Possibly, I don't know. I don't know that it would necessarily be an easy decision, but many important decisions are not easy.

[Parrothead]

anchor what? [or did you mean something else?]

 

I could believe that a person at 18 might not know something like that - I mean, if their folks kept it a secret. Lots of kids don't know all the family "dirty laundry", know what I mean?

Deleted this part.

 

Okay, so one turns 18 start looking for financial aid, get turned down because one don't have a SSN, start asking questions, find out that one's family has been breaking the law for the last 17 or so years. What does one do? Hopefully one starts the process to become a legal citizen of the country one has been living in for so long.

 

Sorry about the above. I saw that you are from Canada. An anchor baby is a child born in this country to an illegal immigrant. The baby is the citizen and the rest of the family is anchored to the US through the infant/child. Women will cross the filthy, disgusting, dangerous Rio Grande river 9 months pregnant just to have an anchor baby.

 

I'm bowing out to this thread. If I don't I'm going to start ranting.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Parrothead

[Heather in WI]

I think resident status should be determined before a child is admitted to public school. If they are not here legally, our tax dollars should not go towards educating them. Why should we reward people who break the law? Why should we make it appealing for them to come here illegally?

 

Do you guys not have to show documentation when you register your kids for public school? You have to provide birth certificates here..

 

In our school district, it is against the law to ask about immigration status.

 

Our state is one of 11 that allows illegal immigrants to pay in-state tuition at our universities.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Do you guys not have to show documentation when you register your kids for public school? You have to provide birth certificates here.. I assume if the child's birth certificate was from another country, the school would ask for something more....

 

It is illegal to ask for documentation when you register for school. You just have to show you live in the district with an electric bill or something similar which I tend to disagree with.

Edited January 12, 2010 by priscilla

[jujsky]

Just to clarify-- you feel that providing some financial aid would be rewarding the bad behavior of illegal immigration or overstaying visas, not working hard and finishing high school, right?

 

Yes, I feel it would be rewarding the bad behavior of the illegal immigrants -- the parents of these students. I had to struggle to pay for my schooling. My parents were divorced, my dad refused to help, and my mother was low-income but refused to accept any government assistance, though she financially qualified for food stamps and free lunch at my school. My parents paid taxes. Why, in a time when financial aid is limited, should someone in the situation I was in potentially NOT receive financial aid because the child of an illegal immigrant may be in a lower income bracket? While I do feel bad for them, it's extremely unfair to the people who pay taxes. I realize it is NOT fair to the illegal immigrant working hard in school, but preference needs to be given to the children of tax-paying parents in this case. There simply isn't enough money to go around.

 

 

Again, to clarify--- you mean that we should not allow young children who have illegal status to attend public school because it creates a drain on taxpayers, is that correct? As in preschool/kindergarten? Do you feel that withholding education from an entire segment would create a GREATER drain on taxpayes as those individuals become illiterate adults, incapable of holding a job or paying taxes in their own right? Do you worry that this would lead to more widespread uneployment and all the social ills that are part and parcel of it?

 

Yes, that's pretty much what I mean, and as I said, I realize it's extremely harsh. If free education, free school meals for low-income people, and all the other benefits tax-payers receive wasn't available to illegals, many people either wouldn't come here or wouldn't stay. If they want a free education, they can remain in their own countries and gain one there, or they can apply for the lottery annually and wait to get in here legally. If we didn't give them and their children as many benefits, you'd see fewer illegal immigrants. They come here to make their lives better. If their lives aren't improving, they'll have no reason to stay. Are there social ills involved? Yes, but I really feel many of these people wouldn't stay if they didn't receive so many benefits for their children, therefore the social impact wouldn't be as extreme.

 

 

So if your FIL was working as an engineer when he first came to this country, he was educated already, is that a correct assumption? As is your MIL?

 

Yes, they were educated. That doesn't mean obtaining their education in Russia as Jews was easy (there were many schools they were not permitted to attend because they were Jews). BUT they were here legally and paying taxes. They waited several years to get in here and were on the verge of immigrating to Israel instead when their paperwork for the USA came through. I know many highly-educated people who came here legally but are unable to use their degrees here. Having a degree from a foreign country (except in something like engineering) doesn't mean much here. My friend's parents both had medical degrees (psychiatry for one, and the other was a surgeon) in the former Soviet Union. They had to work low-paying jobs as custodians and store clerks before they were able to go back to school here for the same fields they already had degrees in. DH's distant cousin is a skilled architect and he has been unable to get a job here with his degree. Many of these highly-qualified people with degrees DO end up working the same types of low-income jobs that illegal immigrants work. The difference is that people here legally have to pay taxes and often get some modicum of human-rights protection, unlike the illegal immigrants.

 

 

 

I applaud them.

 

Thank you. So do I. They worked very hard. :001_smile:

 

 

Disdain? Or desperation?

 

I think it's some of both, but I'd say it is more desperation than disdain. I'm sure if getting into this country legally was easier most people would do it the legal way, pay taxes, have more benefits, and have a bit of job protection. There is a lot of desperation in the world though, and we can't fix all of the problems in other countries, nor can we take in all the people who would like to come here. It is not economically feasible. There are ways to legally enter this country. They can follow one of the legal routes to obtaining a green card. It may not be easy and it may take years, but there are ways to do it. They can also apply to other countries if their country of origin is that bad. The USA isn't the only country that accepts immigrants.

 

 

 

If you are a part of organized religion, do you feel that this belief is in opposition to the teachings of your religion? If so, how do you reconcile that?

 

I am not part of an organized religion. Politically, I am an independent with strong liberal leanings. Shocking, I'm sure! I know these views are NOT liberal in the slightest. Again, it comes down to our country's inability to save everyone. I know what it's like to struggle to afford college. If it comes down to helping those who are here legally and those who are not, then we should help those who are here legally. I am not a hard-hearted person, though I know it sounds like I am. This is a topic I've thought long and hard about for many years, and these are the conclusions to which I've come. Does my heart rest 100% easy over these conclusions? Absolutely not! My heart and my mind are in constant battle over this issue. I wish we COULD help and save everyone. Realistically, we cannot.

 

Again, just asking for the purposes of discussion, not passing judgement.

Thank you for your thoughts!

 

I didn't feel judged, Astrid. Thank you for engaging in such a thoughtful debate. It certainly is not a simple issue.

[Parrothead]

It is illegal to ask for documentation when you register for school. You just have to show you live in the district with an electric bill or something similar which I tend yo disagree with.

So you guys could lie and say that your child born later in the year has a birthday before the cut off date for starting school? As in a Novermber baby could start school because his parent lied and said his birthday was in August?

[Sputterduck]

I"m going to be one of the harsh ones. These children and/or their parents broke the laws of the US. Some kind of consequence for criminal activity needs to be implemented.

 

People in any country illegally need to go back to their country of origin and fill out the paperwork, pay the fees, etc and come immigrate legally.

 

 

I will not hold a child responsible for the law breaking of their parents.

[Heather in AL]

Heather, thank you for your reply. I'd just like to ask, (and you don't have to answer!) whether you came from an English-speaking country or not. Here, we have mostly Asian and Spanish illegals (though not too many from Mexico.)

 

astrid

 

I am from Canada, so, yes, I spoke English when I came here. My dh is from France and had a passing knowledge of English, so he worked very hard to learn English, which he now speaks like a native (except for the accent! :tongue_smilie:).

 

I deleted my reply because I sort of chickened out---- I try to stay away from 'hot topics' and I try not to get too personal on public forums and this crossed both those 'comfort zones' for me.

 

In short, for those who missed my reply, I am in the "round 'em up and deport 'em" camp. If this country would just ENFORCE the laws already in place (and get rid of the terrible 'have a baby, and it's a citizen' law), we would avoid much of the debate on assistance, school eligibility and what to do if/when someone IS set to be deported, but has an anchor baby. Harsh, I know, but it's the fault of the parents, NOT this country. We do need to educate (through high school) and vaccinate, etc. those who are here, but if we deported them it wouldn't be an issue. I HATE that my taxes are paying for illegals' education and health care while many of us here legally 'get the shaft' because of programs in place to help 'them'.

 

My dh and I are both naturalized citizens and we 'did our time' waiting for paperwork to be completed.... 5 years of paperwork waiting for me and 9 for dh. This is a VERY hot topic for me and I am SO annoyed that our elected officials are not enforcing the laws as they stand. We did the right thing, and it p*isses us off that those who don't are getting a 'blind eye' from the gov. and being allowed to continue living here.

 

Where I am, we have mostly Mexican illegals with some from African nations thrown in (they come by the hundreds on a work visa to work at a local company then leave and the gov't has no clue where they are). The whole system needs to be revamped. The more this goes on, and the more I hear of 'special programs' funded by MY tax dollars, the more angry I get. Very angry.

[JillZ]

If free education, free school meals for low-income people, and all the other benefits tax-payers receive wasn't available to illegals, many people either wouldn't come here or wouldn't stay.

 

Interestingly, many of the people receiving these benefits legally don't actually have to pay taxes because of being in such a low income tax level. So they actually aren't tax-payers, or are paying very minimal taxes. I have no problem with this, and have no problem with the children of illegal immigrants receiving some of the same benefits.

[astrid]

Julie, Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my many questions! I really appreciate the time you took to think and write about them.

 

Ahhh...Russian Jews! I taught an ESL class for many years to a group of elderly Russian immigrants who were Jewish. Wow...the dynamics of that group was something else! I LOVED teaching that class, but it was EXHAUSTING! :001_smile: Fabulous, well-educated people. VERY argumentative with each other! :D

 

astrid

[Tidbits of Learning]

The parents, sure. But how did the children break the law? By being born in the states, or being brought there by their parents? It's not like the child could tell his folks that he wasn't moving with them. :001_huh:

 

If they are born in the U.S., then they are U.S. citizens. Their parents wouldn't be, but they would be. That is a big part of the deportation debate. The children born here are legal and their parents are illegal.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I will not hold a child responsible for the law breaking of their parents.

 

It is one thing for the child to bear criminal responsibility for their parents actions. However, it is quite another to give a child benefits that he or she does not rightfully deserve.

 

My piano teacher's daughter was almost deported from the Czech republic because of a technicality on her student visa. She has a couple more years in her school program, but the government didn't care. She was in out of country only 2 days short of the requirements for extending her student visa and she was about to be arrested. Her only recourse was to bump up her wedding to fiance who has a passport in the EU. The only reason why I mention this is to point out that the US is expected to extend more grace its illegal immigrants than any other country.

[Tidbits of Learning]

anchor what? [or did you mean something else?]

 

I could believe that a person at 18 might not know something like that - I mean, if their folks kept it a secret. Lots of kids don't know all the family "dirty laundry", know what I mean?

 

If they are 18 and don't realize that they are here illegally, then I don't think they are intelligent enough to go to college. I could understand a 10-14 year old not understanding citizenship and living somewhere illegally, but a high school age student should know the debate and discussion just from being in school.

[Tidbits of Learning]

It is illegal to ask for documentation when you register for school. You just have to show you live in the district with an electric bill or something similar which I tend to disagree with.

 

We have to have birth certificates, ss cards, and immunization records as well as an electric bill or something showing we live in the district.

[tdeveson]

I"m going to be one of the harsh ones. These children and/or their parents broke the laws of the US. Some kind of consequence for criminal activity needs to be implemented.

 

Explain to me how the children broke the law and are now criminals.

[Jean too]

You're talking about federal financial aid here. I do not agree with giving illegals scholarship money from federal or state funds. However, many scholarships are paid from the private endowment funds of the schools. That is up to the schools. As long as it isn't tax payer money it's their money to spend as they (schools) see fit.

[Melissa in FL]

Explain to me how the children broke the law and are now criminals.

 

A quick google gave this article: http://media.www.ntdaily.com/media/storage/paper877/news/2009/03/31/News/Speaker.More.Children.Crossing.Border.Illegally-3689294.shtml

 

A quick quote from it:

 

About 100,000 children a year come alone to the U.S. illegally from Mexico and Central America, with three out of four children from Central America coming to reunite with a single mother who had left them behind, she said.

 

"I was amazed to find that the youngest kids making this journey alone were seven years old," Nazario said. "I think the parents here wouldn't let their kids at that age cross the street to go to school alone and these kids were traversing four countries alone."

 

Children certainly do cross the boarder illegally, that is how they break the law. I remember reading about a holding place in TX where tons of children are held after being caught crossing the boarder. Many of the children were frequent visitors to this place, being caught again and again crossing the boarder and then deported. I don't remember the name of the town it was in and didn't find a reference to the article in a quick search, but the story was heartbreaking.

Melissa

[cougarmom4]

I don't think children/families with an illegal status should be given any government assistance - education, medical, social services, etc. If people in this country illegally are turned in, denied services, the draw to come here in the first place would be eliminated.

 

I really think that people found to be in any country illegally should at the least be deported back to their home country.

 

:iagree:

[TravelingChris]

I think that some students who go to those state universities that give instate tuition to illegal residents but charge out of state students higher tuition should sue on the basis of the equal protection amendment.

 

One reason I will not vote for Mike Huckabee for President is because he wanted to give illegal residents state tuition rates while not giving military dependents of active duty service people who are serving in Arkansas in state rates.

 

I am against illegal immigration. I don't hire knowingly illegal aliens, ever. If I am hiring someone to do some work for me, I pay on the books and it is up to the owner to make sure he hires only legals. I will say that if the worker had cause to come into my house and he was illegal, he would probably scramble. I have a Immigration Inspector patch framed on my wall right next to the award I received with them.

[newbie]

Anchor babies are citizens. That is why they are called anchor babies.

 

Children brought over by their parents should apply for citizenship as soon as they are able. I can't believe that a person age 18 who is looking to go on to college doesn't know that they are here illegally, and that there are things to be done before taking the next step of going to college.

 

:iagree::iagree:Another wife married to an immigrant who came over at 15. He knew all the steps that needed to be taken and took them and became a citizen legally. Foreigners know what is required.

 

Being a SD resident this is hot topic. I believe they should not recieve financial aid. Being a caucasian women, I could not recieve financial aid. But an illegal can. That is irreprenhensible.

 

Now we are trying to get financial aid for my daughter, and if illegals are still getting it. I will be mad all over again. It is not fair, a society is based on rules and if we go to another country we have to follow their rules. Case in point, if I go to Mexico , I cannot own land, b/c I am not born there. Therefore I do not buy land.

 

Plain and simple, illegal is illegal, no matter if they came here at 1 day old.

[Impish]

It is one thing for the child to bear criminal responsibility for their parents actions. However, it is quite another to give a child benefits that he or she does not rightfully deserve.

 

My piano teacher's daughter was almost deported from the Czech republic because of a technicality on her student visa. She has a couple more years in her school program, but the government didn't care. She was in out of country only 2 days short of the requirements for extending her student visa and she was about to be arrested. Her only recourse was to bump up her wedding to fiance who has a passport in the EU. The only reason why I mention this is to point out that the US is expected to extend more grace its illegal immigrants than any other country.

I don't know about that. Canada has quite a time deporting criminals who have been court ordered deported...Somehow, they get 'lost' and only pop up again when they're busted for yet another crime :glare:

 

Personally, I don't believe there should be an appeals process for someone that's here illegally. You've already broken the law, thanks. Go back to your country and reapply.

 

Some of the appeals processes take YEARS to complete. Years that they get to stay in Canada, not in jail, but in the comfort of their own home....Mostly subsidized housing, and with more financial benefits than born Canadians can qualify for :glare:

[Danestress]

but I wonder if it's really worth the cost to citizens to have a college education available to almost everyone. Do we need that? Does the research show that it's the higher education that benefits society or is it having more people able to earn higher wages? It makes sense to me that having more people able to earn more benefits society - that's fewer people depending on the welfare state and more people paying taxes. But if we could manage to significantly raise wages for high school graduates and attract and build businesses that pay living wages to people without college degrees, would that be what really matters?

 

 

Nowadays, I have heard of some students needing from $50,000 to $150,000 in student loans. So I guess those students will probably never own a home or have much of an American dream IMHO:001_huh: I do think that the government should take measures like more financial aide so that college is accessible to everyone and not just the very rich which I can envision happening if things continue as they have been:(.

 

 

 

It sounds to me like you are saying that because college is very expensive, taxpayers should foot the bill for people who can't afford it, and that way people won't have so much debt. But it seems to me that what that does is it allows more people to go to college with a little less debt, and then they have to pay more taxes for life. Why not reduce the program and reduce taxes so that people will have more of what they earn to spend and save as they see fit, whether that is for college for their children or for starting a business or for something else?

 

Oh goodness, I am starting to sound like a conservative:)

Edited January 12, 2010 by Danestress