Antonia Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 "You can't be Christian and be pro-abortion." :blink: I have to say I was really astounded by the sheer divisiveness of the thing. Without getting into the abortion debate, can someone please enlighten me. What point is served by a proclamation such as this? I sit here shaking my head in wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 "You can't be Christian and be pro-abortion." :blink: I have to say I was really astounded by the sheer divisiveness of the thing. Without getting into the abortion debate, can someone please enlighten me. What point is served by a proclamation such as this? I sit here shaking my head in wonder. Eh, what do you expect from someone who sums up their life philosophy and glues it to the back of a car? Just be thankful you don't live next door. Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Eh, what do you expect from someone who sums up their life philosophy and glues it to the back of a car? Just be thankful you don't live next door. Barb Ya know, I like that :) I know these two are comparing apples to oranges, but when I was Christian, I kept hearing "you can't be christian and goth" either. And that still burns me because it shows ignorance of one or both things. And I wish they'd stop calling it "pro-abortion" and call it "pro-choice" because to say pro-abortion implies that I just do not care what happens, go get this procedure done willy nilly any time and as many times as you wish--which is so far from what the pro-choice movement actually stands for, that calling it anything but pro-choice is insulting. But what do I know. People like to ding me for saying "flippin'" so hehe. I like what Barb said. Sums it up pretty much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Ya know, I like that :) I know these two are comparing apples to oranges, but when I was Christian, I kept hearing "you can't be christian and goth" either. And that still burns me because it shows ignorance of one or both things. And I wish they'd stop calling it "pro-abortion" and call it "pro-choice" because to say pro-abortion implies that I just do not care what happens, go get this procedure done willy nilly any time and as many times as you wish--which is so far from what the pro-choice movement actually stands for, that calling it anything but pro-choice is insulting. But what do I know. People like to ding me for saying "flippin'" so hehe. I like what Barb said. Sums it up pretty much. And since I just received a PM accusing me of being snarky, I'd like to clarify. I was actually trying to diffuse a potentially ugly thread because bumper stickers just aren't worth getting excited about. Anyone who puts something so divisive on a bumper (regardless of stance) is asking for trouble. I always roll my eyes at them and snort. So, no...didn't mean it as snarky...I really wouldn't want to live next door to someone rigid and shallow enough to post philosophy on a "flippin" bumper sticker :D Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Geez, you got a pm or a neg rep? All I can do is sing: "I'm going back.. back.. back to school now yeah" (grease 2 if you are wondering).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaMere Academy Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Eh, what do you expect from someone who sums up their life philosophy and glues it to the back of a car? Just be thankful you don't live next door. Barb :lol: That was too funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonia Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 I was actually trying to diffuse a potentially ugly thread Thanks. That's why I wrote "without getting into the a. debate." I guess what I'm trying to understand is why someone would feel the need to put that out there when there is no good that can come of it, kwim? I know personally I wanted to run her off the road. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Yeah... and I think the "pro-life" movement should be called the "anti-choice" movement, because that's really what it boils down to: pro-*choice* vs anti-*choice*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Thanks. That's why I wrote "without getting into the a. debate." I guess what I'm trying to understand is why someone would feel the need to put that out there when there is no good that can come of it, kwim? I know personally I wanted to run her off the road. :glare: Because like Barb said (and I don't care if someone thinks I'm being snarky)---some people sum up the whole of their life by stupid little sayings on a piece of paper with glue. And they think that little glued piece of paper actually means something. The same applies to those "fish" on the backs of cars I see.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieAir Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Because like Barb said (and I don't care if someone thinks I'm being snarky)---some people sum up the whole of their life by stupid little sayings on a piece of paper with glue. And they think that little glued piece of paper actually means something. The same applies to those "fish" on the backs of cars I see.. Well, I wouldn't put a fish on the back of my car (though I am Christian and do not try to hide it), but I do think that is quite a bit different. There is a lot more to being a Christian than there is to being pro-choice or anti-abortion. And I most certainly disagree with that bumper sticker and find it to be in VERY poor taste as well as inaccurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieAir Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I disagree. I think one of the reasons we have the divide we do is that the issues each side is passionate about aren't parallel. Pro-choice doesn't equal anti-life and pro-life doesn't equal anti-choice.... A (highly imperfect) analogy might be the (American) Civil War... the core issues to the people on each side weren't parallel at all... [To be clear: I am not trying to voice an opinion for or against either 'side'... my beliefs don't fit either side's positions.] :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracey in TX Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Yeah... and I think the "pro-life" movement should be called the "anti-choice" movement, because that's really what it boils down to: pro-*choice* vs anti-*choice*. What the bumper sticker is lacking (other than tact) is that pro-choice allows the death of a baby. How can any human being willingly participate? The "choice" was made before the pregnancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura in VA Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I believe you're fortunate. And, they do it because they feel strongly about abortion and I would assume they believe that it goes against Christian beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonia Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 sigh... Ok, I'm starting to feel sorry I asked, but what I was trying to get at is why one *Christian* would completely alienate another over an issue, even a big one. I understand putting a bumper sticker on your car that might read, for instance, "abortion kills" to get your belief out there, but I do not see how this particular sentiment does *anyone* any good. For those who don't believe in abortion, would you put this on your car? If so, what would you hope to achieve by it? I am personally pro-choice, but even if I were pro-life, I can't imagine putting this on my car and out there for other Christians to see. To what end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PariSarah Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I guess what I'm trying to understand is why someone would feel the need to put that out there when there is no good that can come of it, kwim? . . . that some people value (what they see as) truth-telling even when (what they see as) the truth is unpopular, unheeded, or unwelcome. Some people even enjoy being cast in the role of Cassandra. Besides, how can you say that "no good can come of it"? It pissed you off, didn't it? It made you respond. That's a good, as far as the bumper-sticker-owners are concerned. And now you're talking about it on an online chat board. You're forcing people to discuss the issue (even though you claim not to want to get into the a. debate). Another good, as far as they're concerned. Imperfect goods, but still goods. When I was pastoring, I was always much more cheered when people argued with me about what I said than when people shook my hand on the way out the door and promptly forgot everything. Arguing is a good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 What do you choose if you're pro choice? What are the choices? death, and life. One human chooses to kill another. That's the choice you are defending. You are defending the right to take an innocent life w/o consequence or due process. You are defending the right to kill. You are defending the right to choose death. The right to choose life is not what's under attack. If you believe the opportunity to choose to kill should be a right, then why get hung up on "pro choice" vs "pro life"? I really don't see what the big deal is --kinda like anti-abortionists not wanting to use the term "fetus/embryo" thinking it messes up their stance. I think the use of those terms strengthens it. If you are going to defend another's right to kill another human at any pre-born stage of development, then let it be there: define your choice and stand behind it. I'm not anti-choice: there are plenty of choices in how to deal w/ a living human being. I am anti-death. We could get into a discussion of "where does Christianity condone the intentional killing of a human being for convenience sake" but that might get sticky. More about death and wars and killing in the thread....last month? I think the bumper sticker is obviously directed at those who identify as being Christian. If you consider yourself Christian, they want you to examine why you think Christ/God would condone abortion. And a lot of that depends on your beliefs in the Bible --not everyone adheres to it but still calls themselves "Christian." So if you consider yourself a Christian and feel the bumper sticker was wrong, then how *as a Christian* would you state your case to allow abortion as a moral, protected choice? I do understand that sometimes "the choice" to become pregnant was taken away. i still think that's a tough sentence: to execute another human because someone's choice was taken away. Two wrongs and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angela in TN Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Geez, you got a pm or a neg rep? All I can do is sing: "I'm going back.. back.. back to school now yeah" (grease 2 if you are wondering).... Completely off topic BUT at one time I knew every line in Grease 2, don't know if I should broadcast that but I loved that movie. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonia Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 Besides, how can you say that "no good can come of it"? It pissed you off, didn't it? See, that's the thing. It didn't piss me off. It only made me wonder what she was trying to prove by dividing up the very people with whom she supposedly identifies, other Christians. Is the issue more important than the faith? In this case, it would appear so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Why is it ok for Christians to be divided on this issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Antonia, I just want to tell you that this thread is going to quickly do exactly what you don't want it to. I will be watching closely, but I'm not getting into a "contest" with anyone over my decisions and I'd suggest you don't either because if you think that bumper sticker got your goat, just wait. No, it's best to let it lay now... the issue to people who use those bumper stickers, is more important to them than their faith, IMHO, and it makes them lose sight of the true meaning of their faith. They are focusing on one issue and one alone, ignoring many others that shouldn't be ignored. It's kind of like Westboro Baptist and Fred Phelps--everything is "fag this" and "fag that", they focus soley on that one issue, all others be ****ed. Don't let this thread work your blood pressure up. It's not going to, mine. I totally disagree with Peek, but she knows this already, so there is no need for me to rehash it. Just giving you a heads up, is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gailmegan Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Wow! So many good thoughts on this thread. And great that it is civil, since it is such a controversial subject which evokes passionate responses. So now to my randome thoughts: I think people post things like that on bumper stickers because they are looking for a platform for their opinions and are not being sensitive to the feelings of others. I agree that the opinion of someone who uses a bumper sticker in this was is not worth my time. Sadly, it is things like this that give Christians a bad name, and make me wonder if that person really understands the gospel at all. As Christians we shouldn't be calling the salvation of another person into question for any reason apart from denying the gospel of Jesus Christ. And especially not for political reasons. I can't tell you how many times people have told me that I can't be a Christians and be a democrat. Well, I guess I'm in trouble. LOL I am pro-life (and I'll comment on that in a minute) yet I understand that many people in this nation are not, and that many people in this nation, some Christian, do not believe that life begins at conception. I disagree, and I support crisis pregnancy centers that counsel women not to have abortions. But I also don't see anything changing with our laws because of how most Americans feel about abortion, so I don't make the abortion issue a top political concern of mine. As for the terminology. ITA with PP that there are definitely falsities with each distinction. I happen to hate when anti-abortion people call themselves pro-life, yet are pro-war and pro-death penalty. I am pro-life and that is across the board. I am against abortion, war, capital punishment, and the mistreatment of people in things like torture, and issues of not taking care of the poor, etc. All of these are issues of life! I feel like there was something else I wanted to say, but I forget. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Completely off topic BUT at one time I knew every line in Grease 2, don't know if I should broadcast that but I loved that movie. :lol: :lol: That's terrible!:lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonia Posted March 21, 2008 Author Share Posted March 21, 2008 ... the issue to people who use those bumper stickers, is more important to them than their faith, IMHO, and it makes them lose sight of the true meaning of their faith. They are focusing on one issue and one alone, ignoring many others that shouldn't be ignored. That was my exact feeling, but I was wondering if someone who would feel comfortable putting that on their vehicle might have a different take. Thanks for the warning, Toni! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura in VA Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Very nicely stated. I wish I could give you some rep, but I have to spread it around first.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.griff Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 *I* don't believe in bumper stickers, they are against my "religion" :D However, I don't see this as being that different from any other bumper sticker. Some Christians feel the need to label everyone and everything according to whether it fits "their" belief system or not. They may think that by displaying said comment, they may "slap" some truth into another "believer" who just hasn't totally come over to the "right" side yet, KWIM? I think the whole Jesus fish/Darwin Fish/Jesus Fish Eating Darwin Fish/Darwin Fish Eating Jesus Fish line of stickers is ridiculous and "offensive". Obviously you disagree, WHO CARES? (and by you, in that sentence I'm referring to the fish sticker appliers). We all believe different things, and bully people believing differently than I do are *not* going to scare me into accepting *their* personal beliefs as Gospel in and of itself. Que sara sara (I have NO idea how to spell that, LOL). Live and let live, or live and let others make fools of themselves as they see fit. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 As Christians we shouldn't be calling the salvation of another person into question for any reason apart from denying the gospel of Jesus Christ. What *is* the gospel of Jesus Christ? Even Christ says that some who call "Lord Lord" will be turned away because they never Really Knew Him. he also tells us that there WILL be divisions because some cling to Him regardless of another's feelings. But we ARE repeatedly called to judge another's actions. Or spoken words, be they in family situations, congregational issues, or political issues. i would posit that the bumper sticker requires you to examine your understanding of the gospel. But if the bumper sticker really is that offensive, I would ask WHY do you find it offensive? Why do you think it is OK for Christians to be divided on this? I would say this thread really isn't about abortion so much as it is one's understanding of Christianity, the gospel, and the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 As a driver in Atl (lots of road rage around here) I would rather not give another driver the excuse, with a bumper sticker, to be more annoyed then they already are. A clean bumper is a happy bumper. I find I almost drive off the road trying to read all these stickers. My least fav are those, "My kids is an honor student at XXX school" Ya, and the public schools in GA are, what? third from the bottom out of all 50. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 For those who don't believe in abortion, would you put this on your car? No, I would not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gailmegan Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Peek a Boo - I would love to continue this, but I'm on my way to get the boys in bed (then watch LOST), and I'm not really sure the discussion of what Christianity is is what the OP was looking for. Also I know that we have various denominations of Christian faiths here, and since I'm new I'm not really sure what's appropriate. So, think about it and I'll check back later, and maybe we could continue this in PM if you want. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie in AR Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Yes, that is nicely stated. Laura, I gave her some rep. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonia Posted March 21, 2008 Author Share Posted March 21, 2008 i would posit that the bumper sticker requires you to examine your understanding of the gospel. See, I didn't get that feeling at all. What I read was "If you don't believe the way I do, you are NOT what you think you are, or what *I* am - a TRUE Christian." And I have to wonder, what does this prove? Is this inflammatory thing going to change someone's mind? Are they going to suddenly say to themself, "Oh wow, I guess I better change my thinking about this!"? I just don't see that happening. To me, it's just someone being divisive, and I gotta wonder why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Bear Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Well, I wouldn't put a fish on the back of my car (though I am Christian and do not try to hide it), but I do think that is quite a bit different. There is a lot more to being a Christian than there is to being pro-choice or anti-abortion. And I most certainly disagree with that bumper sticker and find it to be in VERY poor taste as well as inaccurate. The only sticker I think I could ever put on my vehicle with a clear conscience (because of all the above reasons)? "Expect Miracles" I'm thinking of making them and selling them, actually. :D Okay, I could also (maybe) put "Homeschool Bus" on there. I have window clings from various zoos and AAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Peek a Boo - I would love to continue this, but I'm on my way to get the boys in bed (then watch LOST), and I'm not really sure the discussion of what Christianity is is what the OP was looking for. Also I know that we have various denominations of Christian faiths here, and since I'm new I'm not really sure what's appropriate. So, think about it and I'll check back later, and maybe we could continue this in PM if you want. :) gailmegan, you're right :-) As a Christian who DOES understand there are many beliefs about Christ, scripture, and salvation, I do understand that the real question is why you think Christians shouldn't be divided on this. If the offense is "causing division" by speaking your mind whether people agree w/ it or not, then Christ Himself is guilty :-) i don't necessarily think "division" is a bad thing. But it IS important to examine why one feels that division in the area of abortion is ok --or "Christian". Do feel free [anyone] to PM me. I'll talk to ya later :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I have seen this same bumper sticker. I can't say that it really surprised me when I've stood in a coop setting and heard one person say that another "can't be Christian" because they don't agree with them on some point of life, don't vote just exactly like them, etc., etc. This seems to be a common accusation that "Christians" use against one another: "I just don't know how you can call yourself a Christian IF......" (fill in the blank with whatever you don't happen to agree with today....) I grew up hearing some of this, as well, on occasion, so it's been around a while. I remain, for almost 4 decades now, mystified that folks who proclaim that they are attempting to follow Christ ("Christians") can be every bit as judgmental and holier than thou as the Pharisees whom Christ called to task some two millenia ago. We are like children who remain little perpetually - like the lost boys in Peter Pan - we never learn, do we? Regena (who is trying to learn what agape love truly means.....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 See, I didn't get that feeling at all. What I read was "If you don't believe the way I do, you are NOT what you think you are, or what *I* am - a TRUE Christian." And I have to wonder, what does this prove? Is this inflammatory thing going to change someone's mind? Are they going to suddenly say to themself, "Oh wow, I guess I better change my thinking about this!"? I just don't see that happening. To me, it's just someone being divisive, and I gotta wonder why. well, what *IS* a "True Christian"? As a Christian, we are called to help others grow in the Christian faith. If a Christian believes it is ok to lie repeatedly to their spouse, kids, and friends, then yes, I would question their understanding of the gospel. Was Christ Inflammatory? Did He change people's minds? Was He divisive? what is it you're wondering? why do you think being divisive about life is a bad thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 This seems to be a common accusation that "Christians" use against one another: "I just don't know how you can call yourself a Christian IF......" (fill in the blank with whatever you don't happen to agree with today....) ......I remain, for almost 4 decades now, mystified that folks who proclaim that they are attempting to follow Christ ("Christians") can be every bit as judgmental and holier than thou as the Pharisees whom Christ called to task some two millenia ago. YES!! and when we hear that accusation, are we ready to give an accounting of our faith to other Christians as called to? Are we ready to back up our actions w/ Christ's? does agape love mean we defend the right to kill unborn children for convenience sake? Or does it mean we support each other as we all make decisions that kill-- kill spirits, kill relationships, kill actual people? i don't see the discussion of faith as "holier than thou" --i see it as a necessary vehicle to encourage us ALL to examine our faith and understanding of Christ and the gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.griff Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I admittedly haven't been studying my bible lately, :o But, things like this make me think of certain popular passages. What about "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? *I* am Christian, and *I* don't care whether another human being believes that I am or not, KWIM? Everyone has their own story, everyone will see the world and the bible and Christianity through their own personal filter. That doesn't make it right, but it doesnt' make it wrong either. 100 different people will interpret a single verse to mean 100 different things. Christ isn't here in person telling us whether we are mistaken, all we have to go by is the Bible. Nevermind the contreversy surrounding that. *I* think that the key is "seek and you shall find" "knock, and the door will be opened to you". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelroper Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 what is interesting to me "is anyone really pro-abortion?", in my head it is the ole' 'personal right to choose' at the front of the argument, don't get mad at me I really am serious and mean absolutely no offense. The theology is another matter. And an ongoing public debate. and no I wouldn't use that bumper sticker, and to the poster that pointed out its one of those things that gives Christians a strike against them in the minds of others- I agree. Just for the record- it did provide a topic of discussion, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonia Posted March 21, 2008 Author Share Posted March 21, 2008 Was Christ Inflammatory? Did He change people's minds? Was He divisive? what is it you're wondering? why do you think being divisive about life is a bad thing? I think discussion is a fine thing. That's why I keep showing up here. :) I just don't think this type of comment invites discussion or the changing of minds. This type of comment leads to a casting out. I know Christ was inflammatory. He *challenged* people to examine themselves. This doesn't feel like that to me. This is simply inviting someone who has a different belief on *one* issue to take a walk. All other things being equal: profession of faith, acceptance of Christ as savior, etc., should one issue decide whether someone is "worthy" of calling himself a Christian. And who gets to decide that? But, I digress. :) Would *you* put the sticker on your car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jail warden Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 If abortion is such an issue, how is that different than supporting the death penalty? I don't completely know where I stand with the death penalty, I lean toward being against it, but haven't scripturally sought out the answer. However, the glaring difference between the death penalty and abortion is that abortion is taking an innocent life, while the death penalty it punishing someone for their crimes. God has said that anyone who sins against the little children would, it would be better that a millstone be hung around his neck and he be cast in the deepest ocean. I don't judge people for things that are not spelled out black and white in the Bible. In my belief, I must go by what the Bible says and all other things are freedom issues where I don't have to do it one way or another, only what God has given me direction in. I do believe in loving people who are doing wrong. They are the ones who need it most. So while I don't think what they are doing, or have done, is right, I will still love them and be supportive of them as long as my family is not put at risk. I don't believe in beating people over the head for making bad choices because we are all human and we all sin. I've made terrible choices at times too. I would not have a bumper sticker like that because I am to be a light to the world and not a sledge hammar. I do agree with the sentiment, but the wording and tone was poor taste and probably turned people off. And if it made one person lose faith that would be terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura in VA Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Planned Parenthood to name one. I went to them when I was a teenager and pregnant thinking they would help. They wanted to help me to an abortion. And, what about the choice of the unborn? What about their rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I hope that is the discussion that happens then. The who is a Xtian issue is one which continues to baffle me - perhaps I will get some more clues here.... Where do you think the line is between someone's actions/words being... out of sync with Xtian values/beliefs and that person no longer being a Xtian? Do most denominations have a ...creed (is this the right term?) which outlines the core beliefs without which one isn't 'really' a Xtian? If abortion is such an issue, how is that different than supporting the death penalty? (I'm not arguing that there isn't a difference, I'm curious as to where the theological line would be in determining someone's status as a Xtian. I'm, in fact, not arguing anything at all! ;)) I would like to hear more about this too. Most creeds don't address abortion at all, mostly the relationship of the Trinity. There's plenty of Scripture that warns about actions that denote a problem in the relationship of a person w/ Christ. Christ points out that some who appear righteous aren't following Him. Others ARE righteous and don't appear to be [depravity of man]. *I* would ask anyone defending abortion to defend their faith as well. I'm not seeing how the gospel of Life meshes w/ a defense of death. Including the death penalty. ultimately I'm not the one deciding one's salvation. Christ didn't challenge people to examine themselves --He told them what was expected and needed. examining yourself doesn't cut it. You must be born again. With Living Water [Christ --not necessarily H2O] and the Holy Spirit. As a Christian, I do have a duty to help others in their walk. There's a big difference between "casting the first stone" [which leads to Death] vs "preaching the good news of the gospel" [which leads to Life] and letting people know that God and Christ DO hold a position on the issue of people's lives. Yes-- casting out is a BIG part of what God will do. That's Scriptural too. a lot of people don't like that part tho. Which brings me back to: as a Christian, how can one defend a right to abortion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Planned Parenthood to name one. I went to them when I was a teenager and pregnant thinking they would help. They wanted to help me to an abortion. And, what about the choice of the unborn? What about their rights? To be fair, I went to PP when I was pregnant w/ #1 for a test. They never mentioned anything other than "are you planning on continuing the pregnancy?" and didn't push after i said "yes." :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I've always wondered about how many felt when the life of the mother is in question. I know this is a small percent of the #'s. But I would still be interested how one weighs the trade-off, not saving the mother in favor of the child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebeccaC Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Well I would not put the bumper sticker on my car. Since some one asked the question what is the difference between believing in capital punishment and not believing in abortion I will try and bungle an reply. A simplistic answer is this is in capital punishment the guilty dies for his or her crimes (and yes I know it is imperfect) in abortion the Innocent dies or is executed for his or hers father's sin in the loop hole of r*pe and inc*st. I believe in choice the choice of life. I believed in it so strongly that while single I took in a pg teen supported her for the first 3 years of her babies life. In that time she finished high school and got a two year degree with honors from a Jr college and then left my house to marry. Three years ago I went to that babies graduation from seminary (yep I have gray hair,) two years ago I went to his wedding. That girls parents and boyfriend, all nice Christians, would rather she have aborted, pressured her to abort. The baby liked and is thankful for the choice of life. In fact he had no idea that his mother had been pressured to abort but at his wedding he thanked her for the gift of life. I am not naive enough to think that every situation turns out like this but I am a firm believer that where there is life there is Hope. Why kill hope. This will be the bumper sticker I place on my car, A person's a person, no matter how small Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelroper Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 (I can't remember my source-oops-I'll work on it), recently I read that Hebrew culture was one of the few if not the only groups in ancient days that didn't condone the killing of infants or children for any reason, I'm not sure about abortion but I'm going to assume that wasn't approved of either. Others did; anyone see the movie 300? and how the Spartans tossed out imperfect babies? I'm sorry but I don't think the death penalty & war etc. really belong in the same category either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mx5 Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 "You can't be Christian and be pro-abortion." :blink: I have to say I was really astounded by the sheer divisiveness of the thing. Without getting into the abortion debate, can someone please enlighten me. What point is served by a proclamation such as this? I sit here shaking my head in wonder. The purpose of the sticker is probably to cause people who see it to think about abortion from a spiritual perspective. I've seen, IMO, far worse stickers... some that I've had to tell my kids to not look at. Yikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 what is interesting to me "is anyone really pro-abortion?", in my head it is the ole' 'personal right to choose' at the front of the argument, don't get mad at me I really am serious and mean absolutely no offense. would you DEFEND one's right to have an abortion? back to "what are you choosing if you're pro choice?" If you would defend abortion, you ARE stating a case FOR abortion --PRO abortion. That doesn't mean you have to like abortion, but it does say that you are willing to support someone in killing another human. Being pro-abortion doesn't mean you like it. But if you are ready to let someone choose death, be ready to call it that. The theology is another matter. And an ongoing public debate. except that the theology was one reason the OP was "offended". I'm still wondering why, scripturally, one would be offended at insisting on life. and to the poster that pointed out its one of those things that gives Christians a strike against them in the minds of others- I agree. except that Christians aren't out to earn strikes or points--just model Christ. That can certainly be divisive and caustic at times. Jenny --I am pro-abortion if the mother is going to die. By default, the pregnancy can't continue if the mother is dead. However, i would only side w/ methods of aborting the pregnancy that do not kill the child for the sake of killing the child. Removing the fetus/ aborting the pregnancy does not need to result automatically in the death of the child. It probably will though in earlier stages. but if the mother is going to die, the child would too. I'll side on the side of life --saving one life instead of losing two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebeccaC Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I've always wondered about how many felt when the life of the mother is in question. I know this is a small percent of the #'s. But I would still be interested how one weighs the trade-off, not saving the mother in favor of the child. I can weigh in on my experience. Both my pgs were high risk. At 32 weeks with my oldest we both nearly died and spent a week in intensive care and at his birth my heart stopped and I spent another week in intensive care. We thought we would stop there but God in His wisdom 14 months later sent along another pg. From 20 weeks on it was a fight to save him and save me. He was born a month early. I can say for myself that my choice was and would have been his life before mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparrowsNest Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 and how the Spartans tossed out imperfect babies? Coincidentally, we read about that, literally just today, in Hillyer's Child's History of the World. My children were horrified! Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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