"Graduate School in the Humanities: Just Don't Go" (Link to article)

[Tracy in Ky]

I thought some of you might find this interesting. I found it thought-provoking.

 

http://chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the-Huma/44846/

[Laura Corin]

I was heading towards a PhD in French before I was diverted by China. I don't regret the diversion - I was going into academe for all the wrong reasons mentioned in the article. Husband, on the other hand, still regrets not pursuing academia - he was persuaded to take a more 'sensible' route. It took until he was forty for him to find a job that he actually enjoyed.

 

Laura

[laughing lioness]

If you take that path, you will be starting at the bottom in your 30s, a decade behind your age cohort, with no savings (and probably a lot of debt).

Great article, Tracy. We have certainly found the above to be true in our own lives.

[stripe]

I found these points to be especially interesting:

 

 

• They are emerging from 16 years of institutional living: a clear, step-by-step process of advancement toward a goal, with measured outcomes, constant reinforcement and support, and clearly defined hierarchies. The world outside school seems so unstructured, ambiguous, difficult to navigate, and frightening.
  
• With the prospect of an unappealing, entry-level job on the horizon, life in college becomes increasingly idealized. They think graduate school will continue that romantic experience and enable them to stay in college forever as teacher-scholars.
  

 

I have observed this myself, having pondered my life versus someone I know who went on to get a PhD (not in the humanities, however). In the intervening years, I had a job, taken care of my own house, got married, had kids, etc., while this person continued to live in student housing and participate in many fun "extracurricular" activities (not implying partying only). Students are known for things like, say, keeping odd hours and the like. It does seem to me to be an escape hatch from adulthood responsibilities, even if not intentional on anyone's part. I am not trying to insult anyone here or build myself up. But to be on scholarships and have "exciting" part-time jobs and lots of time to pursue one's interests, including summers off, is a very different life. Maybe it's one we all should have! But certainly different.

[RoughCollie]

"It's hard to tell young people that universities recognize that their idealism and energy — and lack of information — are an exploitable resource."

 

This part of the article particularly makes me angry. I am tired of institutions which lack integrity. It's not only the universities, of course. There has been massive fraud occurring in the banking industry, the insurance industry, and the healthcare industry as well. It is not a surprise that it also occurs in the educational industry, but it is disheartening.

 

I wonder what would happen to our society if every person and every business were honest, in the grandest sense of the word.

Edited January 7, 2010 by RoughCollie

[laughing lioness]

My dh has made excellent money for the past 2 decades but given how "behind" we were when he finally graduated has made it difficult to "catch up" (and, unlike most others in his profession, we had more than 1.6 kids and I've been out of the work force to homeschool). Our choices, yes, but the line we were told regarding the debt/time committment going in was, "you'll make so much money when your done, you won't even notice the debt" HAHAHA. His student loan payment has always been more than our mortgage. Believe me, we've noticed!

And yes, we were "sold" the program. And yes, it ended up being lies, all lies.

[Julie in Austin]

I read this with very mixed emotions: I have a BA in English and an MA in Theology. (I also have a teaching cert.) I guess I fit into his "have someone else to support you" category where the grad work would be justified. (Also, I didn't take out loans--I lived very cheaply and waited tables.) But my grad work has enriched and blessed my life so much . . . I just can't imagine *not* having done it . . .

[Jean too]

May I ask what your dh got his PhD in?

[mirth]

Some colleges are dropping the study of classics altogether, eliminating it as a major: http://www.nytimes.com/pages/education/edlife/index.html?ref=education

 

As for the endangered FT college professor, looks like only 27% of college instructors are such: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/03/education/edlife/03strategy-t.html?ref=edlife

 

I read the NYT Education section like some people read The Enquirer.

[G5052]

I have a friend in her 60's with her PhD from Oxford who had grand dreams as well. She's done all sorts of things, but the only academic job she could get was teaching Developmental English (i.e. English for those not ready for English 101) at the community college where I teach IT part-time. She was a very caring, involved professor, but teaching that type of class is exhausting and frustrating no matter how you slice it, and she finally got burned out and retired, having never taught a college-level literature class.

[Merry]

Right now he is a junior majoring in studio art. His professors tell him he has so much talent and that he should apply to the Art Institute of Chicago or New York for his masters. He loves drawing and spends about forty hours a week on it. People who know art tell me that he has talent. But he thinks that after graduation he can get a job as a professor somewhere if he needs to while he gets established as an artist. I'm going to print the article and show it to him. I realize that artists could possibly make a living outside of the university but still.....

[LibraryLover]

When my dh was in his PhD program, he was enticed from academia by actual salaries in industry (which is not the humanities, I know). However, sometimes we look at friends in academia and covet their hours.

 

Sure, they publish, do research and work hard, but so does my dh, and they work without the intense travel (authors of popular books notwithstanding, Susan :)) or hours industry often demands. Dh may earn more, but one pretty much spends what they earn...and we could certainly have lived fine on a prof salary. (If one was able to get a job, of course. The sciences are also competitive, but perhaps not so competitive as humanities)?

 

I would say do what you love, no matter. There are worse things to do in life than teach young adults Austen in community colleges. There are 3000 colleges in the US, but not everyone can head a department.

[LibraryLover]

I also have an artist, we know artists, and it's a tough world out there for many of them. My dc is interested in various media, but animation is her greatest interest. Can she gt a job? We'd like to hope so. How do you tell a child you won't help fund an art degree because it's not a lucrative field? What do you tell a kid who truly wants to study dead languages? What if everyone was scared out of studying humanities at all. That seems a chilling notion.

 

Of course it's wrong for prof egos to play such a huge role in creating other prof who will never get work that was so eagerly promised. I had an experience in grad school where a prof did not want to release me from her program as she was loosing students left and right. A couple more loses, and they would eliminate her position. She thought she could strong arm me into a degree I didn't want.

 

But we need artists; we need people who love the humanities to teach us about who we are, who we were, and who we might become. Perhaps what we need are more patrons for our writers and artists?

 

I get that the point of college or higher learning etc is to 'get a good job', but there are some fields that are never going to offer the big salaries, but how does an artist choose not to create art? How does an interested person walk away from wanting to understand a particular period of ancient history better?

 

Money is everything. It's important yes, but is it everything? Money is why children line up to be American Idols or America's Top Model, and rock stars..

 

 

 

 

Right now he is a junior majoring in studio art. His professors tell him he has so much talent and that he should apply to the Art Institute of Chicago or New York for his masters. He loves drawing and spends about forty hours a week on it. People who know art tell me that he has talent. But he thinks that after graduation he can get a job as a professor somewhere if he needs to while he gets established as an artist. I'm going to print the article and show it to him. I realize that artists could possibly make a living outside of the university but still.....

Edited January 7, 2010 by LibraryLover

[laughing lioness]

Not sure if you were asking me or not:), but anyway, my dh has a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. He would love to work in academia, but besides the "competition" -and he is incredibly competitive vocationally, he happens to also be a white male...just fyi and all that, EOE does discriminate- if a women or man of color even applies, my dh will.not.get.the.job, no matter how qualified.

[kokotg]

Hmm...he sounds a little bitter.

 

I guess my experience was a little different than what he describes, in that everyone I encountered was very quick to warn potential humanities grad students that the job market when you graduate is really tough. People definitely need to go into grad school with their eyes open about the realities of academia these days, but I don't have quite as negative a view as the author of the article does.

 

I went to grad school (an English ph.D. program) for all the wrong reasons, but I knew that that's what I was doing. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, and I knew I loved literature, so I figured it was as good of a next step as anything. My program was fully funded, so I didn't take on any debt (although I was pretty poor for awhile). I learned a lot, I made good friends, and I gained some experience in teaching. I quit after my oldest son was born (I have a master's, but not the ph.D.). I don't regret it at all, even though no tangible benefits have come out of the experience. What would I have done instead with those years right out of college? With my English major, I could have gotten a low paying entry level job somewhere that I likely would not have found as fulfilling as grad school, and I would have quit anyway when my son was born.

 

The author seems to be looking at things almost entirely in economic terms. It's certainly true that no one's going to get rich (and few will even become relatively well-off) with an English phD. And certainly that's something any potential phD student should be aware of. If you won't be happy unless you score a tenure track position at a good college, you probably shouldn't do the phD thing. But if you see grad school and higher education as a valuable experience in and of itself and you're willing to be flexible with your career choices when you're finished, then why not go for it? I don't think there's anything wrong, really, with finding a way to spend a few more years learning full time about a subject for which you have a passion, even if that's all it ends up being.

 

Everyone I've kept up with from grad school seems to have fared well, whether or not they're working in academia. One friend quit our program to go to journalism school, and he's been working as a newspaper reporter for years. Two people from my program ended up going to law school. One runs a small farm, homeschools her kids, and has published a couple of books. As far as I can tell, everyone who sought a job in academia was able to find one, a few in tenure track positions.

 

I guess I don't disagree with the facts the author of the article presents, and I do think it's essential that potential grad students are aware of those facts. But I don't reach quite as negative a conclusion about the value of the humanities phD program as he does.

[Jean too]

Thank you for replying. The reason I asked is that one of my dd's possible long term plans is to teach modern languages at the university level. This fellow's article is pretty discouraging for that possibility.

[smrtmama]

Hmm...he sounds a little bitter.

 

I guess my experience was a little different than what he describes, in that everyone I encountered was very quick to warn potential humanities grad students that the job market when you graduate is really tough. People definitely need to go into grad school with their eyes open about the realities of academia these days, but I don't have quite as negative a view as the author of the article does.

 

I went to grad school (an English ph.D. program) for all the wrong reasons, but I knew that that's what I was doing. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, and I knew I loved literature, so I figured it was as good of a next step as anything. My program was fully funded, so I didn't take on any debt (although I was pretty poor for awhile). I learned a lot, I made good friends, and I gained some experience in teaching. I quit after my oldest son was born (I have a master's, but not the ph.D.). I don't regret it at all, even though no tangible benefits have come out of the experience. What would I have done instead with those years right out of college? With my English major, I could have gotten a low paying entry level job somewhere that I likely would not have found as fulfilling as grad school, and I would have quit anyway when my son was born.

 

The author seems to be looking at things almost entirely in economic terms. It's certainly true that no one's going to get rich (and few will even become relatively well-off) with an English phD. And certainly that's something any potential phD student should be aware of. If you won't be happy unless you score a tenure track position at a good college, you probably shouldn't do the phD thing. But if you see grad school and higher education as a valuable experience in and of itself and you're willing to be flexible with your career choices when you're finished, then why not go for it? I don't think there's anything wrong, really, with finding a way to spend a few more years learning full time about a subject for which you have a passion, even if that's all it ends up being.

 

Everyone I've kept up with from grad school seems to have fared well, whether or not they're working in academia. One friend quit our program to go to journalism school, and he's been working as a newspaper reporter for years. Two people from my program ended up going to law school. One runs a small farm, homeschools her kids, and has published a couple of books. As far as I can tell, everyone who sought a job in academia was able to find one, a few in tenure track positions.

 

I guess I don't disagree with the facts the author of the article presents, and I do think it's essential that potential grad students are aware of those facts. But I don't reach quite as negative a conclusion about the value of the humanities phD program as he does.

 

This is almost exactly what I said to my friend Patchfire after reading this -- the author sounds bitter.

 

Graduate school (I have a master's degree in professional writing/editing) has opened a number of professional doors for me that I would otherwise not have, especially having taken time out from the work force to stay home with my children. The credibility brought by having graduate work in my field isn't something for which I could otherwise compensate. It's led to writing and editing work, and I think will be beneficial as I move forward with some of my current projects.

 

The PhDs I know haven't had a struggle to gain employment, either, but they also learned that they need to network socially (and I'm not talking Facebook), make professional contacts, publish, remain relevant, and schmooz just a bit.

[Danestress]

I think people just need a plan, and it needs to be a plan with some hope of success.

 

There are, in fact, professorships in the humanities. Unfortunately, there just aren't enough of them. I think you need to be the best and the most talented, and you need to understand the risks if you want to invest in the hopes of achieving that goal. I personally think that everyone needs to be able to answer the question, "What honorable, dependable work can I do that people are willing to pay for?"

 

This is a good article and one that I would share with my children when the time comes. I hope there will always be smart, good people who will want to become professors at university, otherwise who is going to teach my children? But I think everyone heading down that path needs to have a back up plan for a way to support his or her self.

[Carol in Cal.]

One of my wistful beliefs about my life has been that if only I had been able to study what I wanted to in college (history), I would have become a history professor and have had a much happier career. I am still pretty sure that that is true.

 

So this year I decided that one of the things I should do is check whether it's really too late for that or not. DD will be attending a brick and mortar high school next school year, and so I figured that that would be the time to look into this.

 

And it sounds like, although I could certainly go back to school and/or be an effective autodidact, it is quite markedly unlikely that I would then be able to work my way into becoming a history professor. I have been wondering exactly how to evaluate that question, and now I'm glad to have this input. I will do something else.

[cin]

One of my wistful beliefs about my life has been that if only I had been able to study what I wanted to in college (history), I would have become a history professor and have had a much happier career. I am still pretty sure that that is true.

 

So this year I decided that one of the things I should do is check whether it's really too late for that or not. DD will be attending a brick and mortar high school next school year, and so I figured that that would be the time to look into this.

 

And it sounds like, although I could certainly go back to school and/or be an effective autodidact, it is quite markedly unlikely that I would then be able to work my way into becoming a history professor. I have been wondering exactly how to evaluate that question, and now I'm glad to have this input. I will do something else.

 

this is where I'm at, too, Carol. And, at 45, I've pretty much decided that an advanced degree is out of the question. So, in order to fulfill my autodidactical traits, and such, I'm going to take some classes at our local community college, which now, actually offers Bacheolor's degrees in a few subjects. I have a BS in education, and with that, I can substitute teach, if we need extra funds.

 

My husband and I have some different ideas about advanced education, especially for girls. I have several friends who have advanced degrees; 2 with PhDs and lots with Master's Degrees, and, at least in my circle, NONE of them are working. they worked long enough to pay off the student loans. Then quit work to stay home with their children. Makes one wonder about the importance of advanced degrees among certain segments of the population.

[3littlekeets]

I'll happily chime in here. It sounds to me as if this professor should retire himself! Okay, I know the job market in academia is tough -- and moreso in the humanities than in other areas. However, that does not mean (at least for me) that future professors should run for another line of work. Instead, I believe that researchers in the humanities need to a) discover ways to get their research grant funded like those professors in the natural and social sciences or gift funded like those in business, b) make their research relevant to external audiences, and c) work within their institutions to create a better climate for their disciplines.

 

I am a professor at a large state university in Communication (social science). I am a mortgage in-debt and will never drive a luxury automobile or have an impressive home. My sister who is 10 years younger than I am has much nicer things, certainly.

 

But, each and I every day, I adore what I do! I love my students! I love my research! I never complain about how little I am paid because nobody ever led me to believe I would be financially compensated for my time. I am paid in my academic freedom and in my ability to set my own schedule. I can do my research at 2 p.m. or head to the gym and do my research at 2 a.m. If I don't do it at all -- I alone am responsible for my failed tenure case.

 

There are politics -- nasty politics. Those of us who have little importance in life seem to create drama to make ourselves "feel" more important, LOL. It can't compare to the drama in corporate life -- where promotions and jobs hang in the balance. At the end of the day, at a research institution, the tenure guidelines are fairly clear. I have had friends who were failed tenure cases and whine about it. They should have known it was coming! They were teaching 2 courses a semester (sometimes 1) and produced no publications and did not bring in grant dollars. :confused::confused:

 

I have friends at teaching institutions. They teach four classes a semester. They have little in the way of research expectations, but their schedules are more like high school -- in at 8 and out at 4. Shucky darn. Friends at Cal State schools -- research expectations of research schools and 4/4 teaching loads. I DO pity them...but they wouldn't leave Cali for anything:lol:.

 

Humanities professors, from my vantage point, are not always the best at selling their work. I have a friend who studies German Literature who REFUSES to understand how he can make his research relevant to the modern world -- talk even the slightest bit about how understanding German or Literature could help young students -- or the University. Another friend with similar research and teaching interests just received a million dollar grant to start a German/Engineering collaboration to help engineers learn a foreign language. He's a tenure case golden boy!

 

Anyway, just my thoughts from the inside. At the end of the day, I'll take my debt, and my independence. I love teaching and seeing fresh faces each fall, and walking with them 4 years later at graduation. I love hearing success stories 10 years later, and getting wedding invites and baby announcements. I love the fact that long after my own kids are grown, I will stay in touch with the world of youth. Academe is a vow of poverty, but for some of us, it is worth it!

Edited January 8, 2010 by 3littlekeets

[Rosie_0801]

Graduate school (I have a master's degree in professional writing/editing) has opened a number of professional doors for me that I would otherwise not have, especially having taken time out from the work force to stay home with my children. The credibility brought by having graduate work in my field isn't something for which I could otherwise compensate. It's led to writing and editing work, and I think will be beneficial as I move forward with some of my current projects.

 

 

I don't think the author is talking about qualifications like yours. There's a big difference between a post grad work in professional writing and editing which qualifies you for a job and post grad work in something that doesn't.

 

Rosie