Is there a curr. that is more relational?

[gandpsmommy]

What elementary curr. (esp. for language arts) comes to mind when you think of ones that would encourage socratic dialogue and positive interaction? Thanks.

[Faithr]

I don't know if this quite fits your criterion because I'm not sure what you mean by Socratic dialogue for elementary level. However, I have done grades 2 and 4 with Oak Meadow and it is very relational. For example the TM's at that age teach the teacher to teach! And the teacher basically engages in conversation with the student while working on projects. I remember the fun we had learning grammar because learning the parts of speech was like playing a game, come up a verb (jump, dance, wiggle, spin!).

 

I think any curriculum that focuses on the teacher teaching as opposed to relying on a workbook to get the message across with the teacher just there to check for wrong answers is going to be relational. I have not used them but the MCT program seems to be like this.

 

I know a lot of people want curriculum where their 7 yo can go off and fill in worksheets and be independent because they feel this will make things easier, but unless a child is extremely independent and likes that mode of teaching I really think in the long run it is much more efficient and easier to teach directly in little bits and increments through out the day. Discussion is our main form of learning around here, along with read alouds (which we then discuss!). Anyway, I digress . . .

[prairie rose]

Five In A Row ;)

[PeterPan]

It's not what you use. It's how you use it.

[Free Indeed]

Five In A Row ;)

 

:iagree:

[dragons in the flower bed]

Sonlight, English for the Thoughtful Child from Greenleaf Press, any of the Waldorf-based programs.

[EKS]

MCT.

[gandpsmommy]

It's not what you use. It's how you use it.

 

I would agree, to an extent. But, from my own experience, I know that there are certain programs that make it easier for me to teach in a way that encourages positive interaction, without an excessive amount of extra preparation or tweaking on my part. I was just wondering what those programs have been for other people, as I'm seeking more of that in our language arts studies.

 

For example, Miquon and Righstart have been this way for me for math, while Singapore wasn't.

 

I'm just seeking new ideas. :bigear:

[rafiki]

.

[Matryoshka]

For LA, I'd have to say MCT hands-down. It's 100% impossible not to use this in a relational way - the books are read together with the student, and there are Socractic questions to discuss printed right there on the page that you discuss as you read, and more in the teacher section in the back.

[gandpsmommy]

For LA, I'd have to say MCT hands-down. It's 100% impossible not to use this in a relational way - the books are read together with the student, and there are Socractic questions to discuss printed right there on the page that you discuss as you read, and more in the teacher section in the back.

 

Can I just confess and say that I was hoping multiple replies would contain the letters "MCT"? Because I have been so intrigued by it since I first saw it mentioned a few days ago (obviously I haven't been on the curr. board for awhile) that I really, really want to consider using it next year. But I'm afraid to stray from FLL and WWE.

[EKS]

We are using MCT with WWE. It's working wonderfully.

[radiobrain]

I was also going to say MCT, as it appears to be EXACTLY what you were asking for, but I didn't want to be accused of "stacking the board" :001_smile:

 

It does demand the sort of interaction you are wanting, and yes, you can do that with any curriculum... but it is intuitive and built into MCT. Part of why I love it so much.

[gandpsmommy]

We are using MCT with WWE. It's working wonderfully.

 

So, you have time to use MCT language arts, WWE, and Lively Latin? How does that work for you? We were using WWE and Lively Latin for second grade and found that it really stretched us for time. This year we're using FLL3 and WWE. Do you think it would be too redundant to do FLL4 and MCT?

[Matryoshka]

So, you have time to use MCT language arts, WWE, and Lively Latin? How does that work for you? We were using WWE and Lively Latin for second grade and found that it really stretched us for time. This year we're using FLL3 and WWE. Do you think it would be too redundant to do FLL4 and MCT?

 

MCT doesn't begin till 3rd/4th (Island level) - I'd say you could use WWE alongside and not be stretched for time (I've said in other places that I think they focus on very different skills, both worthwhile, so I don't see a lot of redundancy).

 

I admit that I've never used FLL, but my understanding is that it is a grammar curriculum. There is more than enough grammar in MCT - I'd say that's a redundancy you could cut out.

[HappyGrace]

I have used in the past or now-FLL and WWE, and I have the Town level of MCT here to start in Jan. I would see NO problem time-wise using MCT and WWE together, and I think it would be a great fit. FLL would be redundant on top of these two together.

 

I agree with you on RightStart-it taught me how to teach math, and I've also carried teaching skills I learned with RS over into other areas.

 

This is not a curriculum, but reading books by Marva Collins (awesome teacher that teaches classical education to inner city kids) really helped me understand more about how to teach in a Socratic fashion-very inspirational!!

Edited December 21, 2009 by HappyGrace

[rafiki]

.

[EKS]

So, you have time to use MCT language arts, WWE, and Lively Latin? How does that work for you? We were using WWE and Lively Latin for second grade and found that it really stretched us for time. This year we're using FLL3 and WWE. Do you think it would be too redundant to do FLL4 and MCT?

 

It doesn't take much time at all. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, LOL!

 

WWE takes about 10 minutes. MCT takes maybe 15 minutes. Lively Latin takes another 10-15 minutes because I've slowed it way down (we're only on chapter 2), so that we don't get overwhelmed.

 

The only FLL I've ever seen is the first book. Based on what I saw there, I would say that FLL with MCT would be redundant.

[gandpsmommy]

It doesn't take much time at all. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, LOL!

 

WWE takes about 10 minutes. MCT takes maybe 15 minutes. Lively Latin takes another 10-15 minutes because I've slowed it way down (we're only on chapter 2), so that we don't get overwhelmed.

 

The only FLL I've ever seen is the first book. Based on what I saw there, I would say that FLL with MCT would be redundant.

 

I think I just did overkill with LL. I really have to remind myself to do small chunks of material with the kids and let a little bit each day add up over the course of the school year. Thanks for your input.

[DawnM]

How long does MCT Island level last? Is it a full year?

 

Dawn

[PeterPan]

I bet if you went back to Singapore, after teaching RS, you'd teach it in a different way. You're constantly growing and maturing in your methods as a teacher. If you're drawn to MCT, I say go for it. It's not like you're commiting for the long-term or drawn into some sequence. It would just be a way to see some new techniques, learn new methods of interacting. We found that with WP.

 

Have you considered Writing Tales? If your dc is heading into 4th grade, they're at a grade age to enjoy WT. It would pull your subjects together, rather than being so many books, and complement what you've already done. You're saying things are taking a long time, which may mean you're pushing developmental readiness. When they're ready, very READY, sometimes those things come a bit faster, kwim? It's ok to wait on stuff. There seems to be this constant push to get into harder stuff sooner, and it's really not necessary. Grammar is pretty abstract, as is latin. And if they're having that trouble with things being "hard," going to a gifted curriculum isn't necessarily going to solve it, kwim? MCT introduces everything at the front then applies it to increasingly difficult scenarios over the course of the year. That's going to be great for some kids and murder for others.

 

It may be that the difficulty you were having with it taking too much time was due to just being a fuzz early for their development. I'd simplify, integrate, and make sure you're doing what they're really ready for. When you back off on the level of the material, they're actually able to go a bit deeper. For instance you can take a simple set of spelling words and teach much more complex stuff if they are already familiar with the words. So it might be you'll get to that depth and discussion you're wanting if you get the material levels right.

 

Well that was totally out there, lol. Ignore me if it made no sense or didn't apply. It's just sort of the experience I've had.

[siloam]

FLL, WWE and SL LA here. My kids don't start to work on doing LA independently till 3rd or 4th grade (depending on the child).

 

Heather

[Chris in VA]

This is a little against the grain, maybe, but we do most of our writing in the context of history, using question/answer and narration. It's quite relational, because, in order to get a good narration, I have to ask lots of questions and seek clarification on the answers.

I actually find Rod and Staff to foster a great deal of conversation, also--

[JenniferB]

I'm not familiar with MCT, don't even know what that stands for, but we did use FLL3, and it's very conversational.

[gandpsmommy]

I bet if you went back to Singapore, after teaching RS, you'd teach it in a different way. You're constantly growing and maturing in your methods as a teacher. If you're drawn to MCT, I say go for it. It's not like you're commiting for the long-term or drawn into some sequence. It would just be a way to see some new techniques, learn new methods of interacting. We found that with WP.

 

Have you considered Writing Tales? If your dc is heading into 4th grade, they're at a grade age to enjoy WT. It would pull your subjects together, rather than being so many books, and complement what you've already done. You're saying things are taking a long time, which may mean you're pushing developmental readiness. When they're ready, very READY, sometimes those things come a bit faster, kwim? It's ok to wait on stuff. There seems to be this constant push to get into harder stuff sooner, and it's really not necessary. Grammar is pretty abstract, as is latin. And if they're having that trouble with things being "hard," going to a gifted curriculum isn't necessarily going to solve it, kwim? MCT introduces everything at the front then applies it to increasingly difficult scenarios over the course of the year. That's going to be great for some kids and murder for others.

 

It may be that the difficulty you were having with it taking too much time was due to just being a fuzz early for their development. I'd simplify, integrate, and make sure you're doing what they're really ready for. When you back off on the level of the material, they're actually able to go a bit deeper. For instance you can take a simple set of spelling words and teach much more complex stuff if they are already familiar with the words. So it might be you'll get to that depth and discussion you're wanting if you get the material levels right.

 

Well that was totally out there, lol. Ignore me if it made no sense or didn't apply. It's just sort of the experience I've had.

 

Actually, it's more of a scheduling/organizational problem on my part than an understanding or developmental issue. Dd is actually gifted linguistically and is way ahead of her age/grade expected ability level. She had no issues at all with understanding Lively Latin. She picked it up quite easily. It was just adding in a whole new subject in addition to what we were already doing that sometimes left us pressed for time. And it also happened to be the year I was trying to start working with ds on academics, as well.

 

I think she sometimes is insulted by the repetition in FLL, so I've begun to leave out some of the repeated directions and just let her diagram the sentences because she knows what to do without being asked ten questions. In fact, when I looked at the sample pages on MCT, I thought the island 3rd/4th grade stuff looked a bit easy for her. I struggle sometimes with time management and scheduling, but I'm doing much better this year.

[Another Lynn]

Actually, it's more of a scheduling/organizational problem on my part than an understanding or developmental issue. Dd is actually gifted linguistically and is way ahead of her age/grade expected ability level. She had no issues at all with understanding Lively Latin. She picked it up quite easily. It was just adding in a whole new subject in addition to what we were already doing that sometimes left us pressed for time. And it also happened to be the year I was trying to start working with ds on academics, as well.

 

I think she sometimes is insulted by the repetition in FLL, so I've begun to leave out some of the repeated directions and just let her diagram the sentences because she knows what to do without being asked ten questions. In fact, when I looked at the sample pages on MCT, I thought the island 3rd/4th grade stuff looked a bit easy for her. I struggle sometimes with time management and scheduling, but I'm doing much better this year.

 

Terri,

I don't consider my ds linguistically gifted, but we're finishing FLL4 now - his 5th grade year. I have liked FLL because it is scripted (so I don't have to think) and it does introduce diagramming so gently. Now, I'm beginning to tire of it for the same reasons. I think he has just outgrown it because he's a little old for it. He gets it. Unlike your dd, he's a bit writing adverse (I allowed him to do too much work orally when reading was slow coming and writing neatly was like pulling teeth). So now I'm leaning towards some CLE (Christian Light Education) LA just to give him more work - more thinking, more writing (the physical act - not essays), more covering a few things that may have fallen through the cracks along the way. If I weren't convinced that this is right for him right now, I would definitely be tempted by all the MCT chatter. When I saw Michele's list of things that MCT covers, it seemed to me that these would not mean as much to him until basic usage and mechanics are more automatic. He feels like a genius with FLL, but it seems like it's easy for him to go through the motions back and forth with me. I hope CLE will challenge him and test him a little bit more.

 

That's my .02, but remember we haven't started CLE and I've never used MCT, so it may change in a month or so :D.

[JenniferB]

Actually, it's more of a scheduling/organizational problem on my part than an understanding or developmental issue. Dd is actually gifted linguistically and is way ahead of her age/grade expected ability level. She had no issues at all with understanding Lively Latin. She picked it up quite easily. It was just adding in a whole new subject in addition to what we were already doing that sometimes left us pressed for time. And it also happened to be the year I was trying to start working with ds on academics, as well.

 

I think she sometimes is insulted by the repetition in FLL, so I've begun to leave out some of the repeated directions and just let her diagram the sentences because she knows what to do without being asked ten questions. In fact, when I looked at the sample pages on MCT, I thought the island 3rd/4th grade stuff looked a bit easy for her. I struggle sometimes with time management and scheduling, but I'm doing much better this year.

 

Terri, In light of what you said here, I retract my recommendation for FLL. Too much repetition for one who doesn't need it can be frustrating. It's not conversational, but you might look into Rod & Staff. It's more rigorous, and has quite a bit of writing. It can be challenging.

[love2read]

I don't know your dd age, but when my gifted dd was 8 we used Writing Tales 2, Moving Beyond the Page for ages 8-10 and http://books.google.com/books?id=iXgSAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=grammar+land&lr=&as_brr=1&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

WT2 was easy for her because she was already writing quite a bit, but it gave us a framework and she had fun with the assignments. MBTP language arts were mixed in terms of the challenge. Some of the grammar was too simple, other assignments were a challenge. There approach is excellent for a gifted child and very dynamic. I think you could call it socratic dialogue at a child's level. Grammar Land, linked above, was a fun read aloud for both of us.

[PeterPan]

We did WT2 when my dd was 3rd grade as well. And yes, FLL has way too much repetition for some kids. We did FLL1/2, but we skipped all that and just did the lessons where new stuff was introduced. We've used Shurley grammar happily for several years now, but it's very no-fluff. We get in, do it, and get out. She's been doing a chapter a day, so she'll finish Shurley 6 soon. I have Shurley 7 and thought I might alternate it with the MCT practice sentences.

 

Shurley has only 3 sentences to analyze per lesson. MCT is even shorter. Anything like that is better for kids who don't need a lot of rep. I like the thought process and Q&A flows of Shurley and the instructional style of MCT for grammar would irk me. But that's just me. I'm just showing how it's possible to get what you want (systematic instruction) but cut down the lessons and get out of the box. Or have you considered just doing less of the FLL sentences? Pick the hardest one and have her do that. If she gets it right, she doesn't even have to do the rest. Not like she'll never see it again. Or do two. But really, you just need a dab. And a light dab of grammar along with WT2 is a REALLY great year. If every writing program were as wonderful as WT2, I'd be a happy camper!

[Karen in CO]

Terri - I switched to SL LA for similar reasons. I've been all over the place on LA looking for something perfect, but the truth is that what I needed more was something that will get done. I like that SL has a variety of exercises for writing, dictation built in once a week, and simple grammar and LA things built into the program. I simply do what is scheduled. We buddy-read the reading assingment because it is more fun that way. She does WW because she has a great vocabulary, but it is good to work on it. She has a short, simple writing exercise that has plenty of variety from week-to-week.

 

I'm saving a more formal grammar for later when we'll do AG.

[gandpsmommy]

Thanks everyone for the recommendations and ideas. I have several new (to me) programs to research now. Thanks again.

[Once]

It's not what you use. It's how you use it.

Ouch! I needed that.

 

Thank you for your wise words.....this is very good for me to remember.

 

Haven't read the other replies but this one will stay with me for awhile. :001_smile:

[Lori D.]

At least, we used these programs interactively. :001_smile: BEST of luck in finding what works best for your family! Warmly, Lori D.

 

 

General Language Arts supplement

- crossword puzzles; word search puzzles; cryptograms; anagrams; jumble puzzles; etc.

- Peggy Kaye books: Games for Learning; Games for Reading; Games for Writing

- family games: Boggle; Quiddler; Scrabble; Word Search; Taboo; Catch Phrase; Balderdash

- solo computer games: Reader Rabbit series; Word Muncher; Spellbound; Cluefinder series

 

 

Grammar

- Winston Basic (gr. 3-6), Winston Word Works (gr. 6-8), Winston Advanced (gr. 7-9)

- Sonlight style dictations/worksheets (I made our own and we discussed together)

- Grammar with a Giggle (gr. 3-6), Giggles in the Middle (gr. 6-8), The Chortling Bard (gr. 9-12)

- Mad Libs (supplement) (gr. 1-6)

- Grammar Ad Libs (supplement) (gr. 2-4)

 

 

Spelling Practice

- Toss It (idea from Phonetic Zoo / Carol Barnier's book How to Get Your Kid off the Refrigerator and onto Learning)

You clearly say the word aloud, spell it (syllable by syllable if that helps), and toss the child a beanie toy; then the student says the word/spells it correctly, and tosses the beanie back. The beanie toss helps keep him focused and mentally prepared. *Immediately* stop and correct any misspelling by spelling it aloud correctly several times and have the student spell it correctly by looking at it and reading it letter by letter several times. Hearing the letters in correct sequential order really helps cement correct spelling in the mind.

 

- Whiteboard (expanded from original idea from Sequential Spelling)

1. reinforce vowel patterns, syllabication patterns, etc.

2. write out root words and practice adding endings, prefixes, etc. -- tell it and draw it as a story with character pictures (ex.: "hope" -- the vowels at the end of the word like to fight with vowels at the beginning of an ending (like "-ing", or "-ed"), so you have to drop the "-e" at the end of "hope" and then add the endings such as "-er" or "-ing"; adding endings such as "-ful" or "-less", or prefixes such as "-un" are not a problem, because they start with a consonant, and consonants don't fight with the vowel at the end of the word)

3. work with homophones -- see the different spellings, and draw a picture or tell a little story to help the difference stick (ex: "meet" and "meat"; it takes 2 people to "meet" and there are 2 "e"s in "meet"; draw the letter "a" to look like a heart and say "I love to eat "meat" -- and see, the word "eat" is IN the word "meat"; etc.)

 

- Dictate sentences (idea from Stevenson Basic Blue Spelling Manual)

Dictate 5 short sentences, (slowly, one at a time) each with 2-3 spelling words in them for student to practice simultaneous thinking/writing/spelling.

 

- Magnetic letters

Either child says each letter and lays out each magnetic letter, or look at a written version word and sort out magnetic letters to match. Helps the child see, say and manipulate the letters for spelling.

 

- Cornmeal

Say each letter and use fingertip to write each letter in a tray of sand or cornmeal. Helps the child see, say and feel the spelling.

 

- Tabletop

Fingertip on tabletop; write each letter large (involve whole arm), saying each letter. Helps the child see, say, and feel the spelling.

 

- Feel it

Child say each letter aloud while writing it; then child "unwrites" the word, saying each letter and going over the letter with fingertip to erase it letter by letter. Helps the child see, say and feel the spelling.

 

- Snakes

Roll out "snakes" of clay and shape each into a letter of the spelling word. Helps the child see and feel the spelling.

 

 

Vocabulary

- discuss and/or define words in context of reading aloud (all ages)

- English From the Roots Up (gr. 3-12)

We did EftRU as a game: we covered the definition on the bottom half of the page and tried to think of words containing the root (ex: "photo" --> photograph, telephoto, photon) and then from those words tried to guess the root word meaning. Then we'd read the definition to see if we were right and go over the words included. If we came up with words not on the list, we'd look them up in the dictionary, and if they did use that root, we'd add them!

 

 

Phonics supplements

- Happy Phonics games, plus lots that we made up ourselves (gr. K-3)

- Python Path board game (gr. K-3)

- Peggy Kaye's book "Games for Reading" (gr. K-3)

- old education Pinnochio card game (gr. K-3) = http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110451695614&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=M*S%3F&GUID=df4d0c8b1080a040d6665393ffff3478&itemid=110451695614&ff4=263602_263622#ht_1014wt_946)

 

 

Reading/Literature

- "popcorn" read together ("you read a page, I read a page") = all ages

- Story Elements (gr. 1-8) = http://www.rainbowresource.com/search.php?sid=1261509168-509372'>http://www.rainbowresource.com/search.php?sid=1261509168-509372'>http://www.rainbowresource.com/search.php?sid=1261509168-509372'>http://www.rainbowresource.com/search.php?sid=1261509168-509372

- Figuratively Speaking (gr. 5-8) = http://www.rainbowresource.com/search.php?sid=1261509168-509372

- Heart of Dakota (gr. K-8)

 

 

Hand Writing

- for instruction, Handwriting without Tears made it painless here -- a little interactive with the drawings of how to write each letter

- for copywork practice, we used riddles, lymericks, favorite quotes from the read aloud to keep it fun and to laugh together; in later elementary grades we worked through the Westminster Shorter Catechism and a summary of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

 

 

Writing

- we practiced the IEW keyword outline technique together -- they would give me the key words and I would write them on an index card, and then they would create a full paragraph in their own words from the key words; other times, they would write the key words, then dictate the full paragraph to me

- Beautiful Feet Geography Guide has *wonderful* ideas for extra research and we used those all year for practicing research, writing key word outlines, then writing a paragraph

- Ready, Set, Revise (gr. 3-8) -- great "writing warm up"

- Peggy Kaye "Games for Writing" -- we'd take turns writing on a story (roll a die, that's how many words you get to write); also, making fun lists (5 things you'd take into space; 10 ingredients for a witch's brew; 3 favorite places to travel to; etc.)

- we all did it: very short journal writing or free writing from a prompt

- now in high school, we all practice together/critique each other on timed essay writing from past SAT prompts (http://www.onlinemathlearning.com/sat-test-prep.html)

- Wordsmith Apprentice (gr. 4-6)

- Scholastic 4 book writing series: Descriptive Writing; Narrative Writing; Expository Writing; Persuasive Writing (gr. 5-8)

 

 

Editing Practice

- Take Five Minutes: A History Fact a Day for Editing Practice (gr. 4-6) -- always ended up talking about the history fact

- Grammar with a Giggle (gr. 3-6)

Edited December 23, 2009 by Lori D.
added info