jillian Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 anyone see it? we are watching it right now; it's the ben stein commentary on ID versus evolution/Darwinism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbie Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Hmmm, what channel, is it appropriate for dd 13? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillian Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 we are watching it on netflix. i would say it is so far appropriate for an early teen and even tween child if they can understand that it is a debating documentary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbie Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Yeah, dd is doing a powerpoint on this subject due after Christmas. I hope its download to computer and not rent. Thanks for the tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillian Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 if you have netflix it probably is on instant watch or check out your local redbox rental ($1 per night) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbie Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Its an instant watch , I am going to prewatch it this wk., to make sure its not too slanted for dd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillian Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 Its an instant watch , I am going to prewatch it this wk., to make sure its not too slanted for dd. it's so funny you bring that up. It covers both sides and it is more about having it allowed in educational settings (talks about how professors and researchers get fired for talking about ID) and the plot summary is this: Academic freedom is being suppressed, says Ben Stein. He contends that professors from around the United States are being fired from their jobs for promoting, or even exploring the possibility of, intelligent design as an alternative to Darwinism. Stein interviews the expelled academics and other supporters of intelligent design. He also interviews the scientists in the mainstream, who support Darwinism. Stein links Darwinism to Nazism, Communism, eugenics and abortion. Vintage clips of educational films and Hollywood movies are used to illustrate points in a satirical way. --summary from IMDB.com so far it isn't one or the other super slanted but we are only part way through :) i hope that helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Sounds interesting. Keep posting! Maybe we'll watch it during break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I'm a young earth creationist but I still thought the movie was slanted. :leaving: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca VA Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I agree with him, and the documentary made some intriguing points, but I had trouble watching it. The camera action was jerky and fast-paced and really unpleasant for me to watch. (Why do filmmakers think this is cool?) It was a shame, since I wanted very much to like this DVD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillian Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 I'm a young earth creationist but I still thought the movie was slanted. :leaving: i'm young earth too...or at least that's the theory that makes the most sense to me--always has, evolution never made sense to me it felt wrong. we are only part of the way through it so i will come back with a real thought on it after it's over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerdad Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Sadly, Stein went about this movie under false pretenses with many of his interviewees. He misrepresented a lot of what people believe. As irritating as I find Richard Dawkins, I actually disliked Stein's effort here even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Sadly, Stein went about this movie under false pretenses with many of his interviewees. He misrepresented a lot of what people believe. As irritating as I find Richard Dawkins, I actually disliked Stein's effort here even more. I agree. I was uncomfortable with the duplicity. While I found the movie enlightening and even agreed with much of it, I was troubled by the means used. I was also bothered by the associations formed between the theory of evolution and the Holocaust. It really really bothered me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie in OR Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 We saw it when it first came out in the theaters. I had read all of the comments about it and just because the comments were all over the board, I was very intrigued to see it. We took ds (then 9) and he totally got all of it. I know all movies slant to their side...we all do, even if we try not to. But I appreciated that it showed a side that we seldom get to see. Or at least, that I seldom get to see. We had great discussions afterward with ds and, occasionally, it still comes up and we continue to process it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillian Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 it's interesting because dh is an evolutionist and i am a creationist...a young earth creationist at that lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillian Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 just finished it up and I definitely liked it. made some great points but yeah a tiny bit skewed/slanted but what "documentary" isn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Sadly, Stein went about this movie under false pretenses with many of his interviewees. He misrepresented a lot of what people believe. As irritating as I find Richard Dawkins, I actually disliked Stein's effort here even more. That's one side of the story anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) That's one side of the story anyway. Is there another side, because that is also the impression I got while watching the documentary? I'm interested in hearing the other side. I'm not saying they didn't say those things or didn't even mean them, just that it bothered me that Stein had to be "sneaky" about the interviewing. But as my husband stated, what evolutionist would give an interview if they had known the premise of the documentary? No one probably. Edited December 20, 2009 by Daisy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyboys Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Sounds interesting. Keep posting! Maybe we'll watch it during break. Definitely worth the watch. Mine are a bit young for the whole movie yet. Given what's going on in the world scientific community in the past month or so, I'd say this is a timely movie to see. I found his main point to be the lack of debate, inquiry or freedom in the scientific community if you're not in lock step with what's the prevailing "correct" view. That's so dangerous and unscientific. As a family, we've discussed this both in terms of the climate debate and evolution/id/creationism. In fact, it doesn't really matter where you fall on those issues, imo, it's the lack of scientific method and integrity that bugs me. The one interview that was funny to me was the guy in France who was slouched practically disappearing in his chair. It was just :001_huh:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 The only thing that was at all worthwhile about this film was when PZ Myers went to a screening and was refused admission ...... ...... but Dawkins was allowed in :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funschooler5 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 It seemed really "tabloidy" to me, especially when they inserted footage of Nazis stomping around. :001_rolleyes: But I'm probably biased though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 We watched it - it was ok - and did have some good points. One documentary we've recently seen on the Documentary Channel was, "Indoctrinate U." That one wasn't about evolution at all, but was really good at showing just how much one has to be politically correct at colleges and universities now. It's really worth it to watch if anyone has one of theirs heading off to college anytime in the near future. Here's what wikipedia says about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrinate_U And yes, I know, wikipedia is hardly the best source out there, but this seems correct to me (and we watched it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillian Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 We watched it - it was ok - and did have some good points. One documentary we've recently seen on the Documentary Channel was, "Indoctrinate U." That one wasn't about evolution at all, but was really good at showing just how much one has to be politically correct at colleges and universities now. It's really worth it to watch if anyone has one of theirs heading off to college anytime in the near future. Here's what wikipedia says about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrinate_U And yes, I know, wikipedia is hardly the best source out there, but this seems correct to me (and we watched it). i'll check that out :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I've got it in our library basket and I'm hoping for a little time to watch it this week. Dd and I are watching BBC's North and South this weekend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyboys Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 The only thing that was at all worthwhile about this film was when PZ Myers went to a screening and was refused admission ...... ...... but Dawkins was allowed in :lol: Expelled from Expelled. :lol: Kinda like the irony of recent outrage about secret negotiations at Copenhagen, while the Congress is in the midst of secret negotiations.....:001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) I think tying Nazism and eugenics to the idea of evolution makes the film biased and slanted. It's like saying artists are Nazis because Hitler was a painter. Christianity has been used as an excuse to kill as many (if not more) people that Nazism over the course of history. Anyone remember the Spanish Inquisition? Witch burning? Killings of Catholics under Protestant rule? I believe in ID even though I'm not a young-earth creationist. I agree that evolutionists sometimes go out of their way to make creationists look bad. But to then turn around and say that makes them like the Nazis is the height of hypocrisy, imo. Edited December 20, 2009 by Mrs Mungo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithr Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I am a theistic evolutionist (if I had to say where I am in this whole issue). Eugenics was a misuse of the theory of evolution. There really is a tie between evolution and Nazism. Social Darwinism, etc were all twisted permutations (ha!) on the idea of evolution. If you put all the people who died in witch burnings and Inquisitons you would come no where near the 6 million plus that the Nazis killed. Now the wars of the Reformation are different. It was Christian killing Christians but usually religion was used as an excuse for political reasons. Even so I don't think you'd get to the numbers the Nazis perpetuated. I thought that Expelled made some good points but was so obnoxious making them that it did more harm than good. Also, Stein switched the tone from being glib and smart ass to being very serious, like he couldn't figure out which approach to take so he tried to blend them and I don't think it worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I am a theistic evolutionist (if I had to say where I am in this whole issue). Eugenics was a misuse of the theory of evolution. There really is a tie between evolution and Nazism. Social Darwinism, etc were all twisted permutations (ha!) on the idea of evolution. Did Nazis use evolution as an excuse for eugenics? Yes. Does that many evolutionists in any way like the Nazis? No. That's where the argument fails, you cannot continue the argument. If you put all the people who died in witch burnings and Inquisitons you would come no where near the 6 million plus that the Nazis killed. Now the wars of the Reformation are different. It was Christian killing Christians but usually religion was used as an excuse for political reasons. Even so I don't think you'd get to the numbers the Nazis perpetuated. If we're speaking only of those killed by the Nazis in concentration camps, due to eugenics, I disagree. For one thing, I think you *must* include those killed during the Reformation wars. I *realize* that religion was often an *excuse* and that's exactly my point. Eugenics was often an excuse to get rid of someone for political means. The same thing happened in the early US with manifest Destiny. If you include those numbers you easily exceed Hitler's count. I'm not suggesting modern Christianity is to blame for that. I'm a Christian and a Native American. I am simply saying it's hypocritical to embrace the misapplication of evolution while denying the misapplication of Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyboys Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I am a theistic evolutionist (if I had to say where I am in this whole issue). Eugenics was a misuse of the theory of evolution. There really is a tie between evolution and Nazism. Social Darwinism, etc were all twisted permutations (ha!) on the idea of evolution. If you put all the people who died in witch burnings and Inquisitons you would come no where near the 6 million plus that the Nazis killed. Now the wars of the Reformation are different. It was Christian killing Christians but usually religion was used as an excuse for political reasons. Even so I don't think you'd get to the numbers the Nazis perpetuated. I thought that Expelled made some good points but was so obnoxious making them that it did more harm than good. Also, Stein switched the tone from being glib and smart ass to being very serious, like he couldn't figure out which approach to take so he tried to blend them and I don't think it worked. Well said. Eugenics and Nazism both have direct ties to Darwinism and the underlying philosophy of evolution. Margaret Sanger was also a proponent of eugenics, as were a number of turn of the century progressives. It's also true that Stein made a mash of what could have been a very good movie. As I said in an earlier post, I do believe that it's worth seeing, if only to see that there are serious, accredited scientists who are marginalized or worse if they are not in lock-step with the scientific community's "right" side of a given issue (particularly true wrt evolution and climate change). On a side note: Dh and I were talking about this not long ago. Hitler's goal was to exterminate the Jews from Europe. Overall, he really succeeded in that goal. Today, countries like Poland have a small fraction of the Jewish population that they had in the early 1900s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyboys Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Sadly, Stein went about this movie under false pretenses with many of his interviewees. He misrepresented a lot of what people believe. As irritating as I find Richard Dawkins, I actually disliked Stein's effort here even more. Ok, OT: This one surprised me....I heard recently about Michael Moore's first movie, remember Roger and Me? The whole premise was about Moore trying to talk with the auto exec, right? Apparently, he not only met and talked with him, but also interviewed him on film. I guess these guys are all about the entertainment. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Did Nazis use evolution as an excuse for eugenics? Yes. People like that will say anything about anything to get what they want. And if saying doesn't get it, a gun will. A brute is a brute, and while a brute may wear shoes, everyone who wears shoes is not a brute. If you watch The Wannsee Conference (a faithful filming of the transcript of the real conference) you will not see underlying philosophies discussed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 People like that will say anything about anything to get what they want. And if saying doesn't get it, a gun will. A brute is a brute, and while a brute may wear shoes, everyone who wears shoes is not a brute. Exactly, this is what I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyboys Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 People like that will say anything about anything to get what they want. And if saying doesn't get it, a gun will. A brute is a brute, and while a brute may wear shoes, everyone who wears shoes is not a brute. This is certainly true. If you watch The Wannsee Conference (a faithful filming of the transcript of the real conference) you will not see underlying philosophies discussed. That was later, right? I think the underlying philosophies and attitudes were being formulated and fomented in the early 30s. Certainly evil people adopted that which worked for them. But from some of the writings I've seen, some did indeed advocate and believe these theories were best for their society. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 If you put all the people who died in witch burnings and Inquisitons you would come no where near the 6 million plus that the Nazis killed. So what? Honestly, so what? That the Nazi's were so efficient is mostly the result of the fact that they happened to be placed in the 20th century. If past methods of persecution and mass murder were less efficient it says nothing of value about the relative evil of who was doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 We watched this as an honor society activity. Lots of good discussion followed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 That the Nazi's were so efficient is mostly the result of the fact that they happened to be placed in the 20th century. . :iagree: And they did it all without computers. (Cue spooky music as we pan forward into the march of time.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 :iagree: And they did it all without computers. (Cue spooky music as we pan forward into the march of time.) Spooky music as in Also Sprach Zarathustra? :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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