Murphy101 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 warning - this is a mini rant. the group test thread it was mentioned that it is a life lesson, bc they will always have to deal with others inability or whatever... That drives me nuts. And it's not true either, imho. How about teachers actually teach their subject and life teach life lessons? I heard this all the time as an excuse for crummy teachers. They need to learn failure. They need to learn how to work with moochers. They need to learn responsibility. They need to learn blah blah blah. How about the teacher just teach the subject?!!? This rates right up there with when we used to exchange papers to grade each other's work. aka do the teachers job again. It is not a teachers job to teach those things. It is a teachers job to teach the subject. Often, it seems go hand in hand as an excuse for when they don't. Drove me nuts in school and the brief time my kids were in school. Just teach the (insert subject) please. Not interested in your social development agenda. Neither am I interested in you training my kid to work in a cubicle for corporate america. I was such a rebel in school. I refused to participate in that stuff. I could never understand why none of the other kids saw that they didn't have to conform. Drove my teachers nuts.:lol: Okay end of rant. And yes, I'm aware that in some cases the teachers are told by higher ups they have to do such silliness, but truely ime most teachers are happy to perpetuate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Said in my best Jan voice....Martha, Martha, Martha.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 :iagree: They spend an awful lot of time on these group projects. I'd like to know if there is even a shred of evidence that it does any good. My observation is that it doesn't. My generation didn't do a lot of group work in school. Yet we seem to work in groups just fine. I don't know why schools suddenly felt the need to emphasize group projects. Was there some crisis of working together that I don't know about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralloyd Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 :leaving: run for cover! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgm Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 We're too far into as a country...way too many that have the tenure that can't do the job...and their unions prevent the district from taking any action until district population falls low enough to let people go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandpsmommy Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I actually didn't see the group test thread, but I totally agree with you! I absolutely abhorred group work when I was in school, and found it to be pointless. When I was a junior in high school, I even had an English teacher who put us in groups to learn vocabulary words, and gave us our grades for the vocabulary quizzes based on how well our group did as a whole. The problem was that we were not allowed to take the quizzes together. We each took them separately. We weren't allowed to give hints or reminders to our group partners or anything. The pressure of their performance affecting our grades was supposed to make us help each other learn the vocabulary? It infuriated me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara R Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Group projects at work are totally different than group projects at school. At work: (1) There is usually a boss who has divvied out assignments. The group isn't just left to their own to figure something out. (2) The workers usually specialize in different areas. (3) The workers have been specifically chosen because of their expertise. Public schools have to take everyone. (4) If workers don't work, they can be fired. Not so in public school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 When I was a junior in high school, I even had an English teacher who put us in groups to learn vocabulary words, and gave us our grades for the vocabulary quizzes based on how well our group did as a whole. The problem was that we were not allowed to take the quizzes together. :banghead: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 see now terri - I distinctly rmember telling my teachers that I knew what I knew and if they wanted to know it - they had the same book I did. You can't help someone who won't help themselves. I purposely sat out on those things to the point that my teachers had to adjust the team grade due to outcry from the rest of team that they didn't want to suffer bc of me. The irony is, if I'd just been silent and mooched, they would have sufferred willingly! They got a better grade bc of my refusal! I was so annoying. I often aced the standardized tests. I was well known to have the texts read entirely by the end of the first week. And I often had the worst grades bc of my attitude. My teachers hated me. It was mutual. I was just biding my time to graduation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) Did you read the rest of my post? :confused: I meant that the OP should use it as a life lesson to make the best of it, but I ALSO said that she should speak to the teacher because this is not okay. Edited December 18, 2009 by angela in ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Group projects "seem" like a good idea. What is so wrong about learning to work in a group? But they don't often, in my experience, pan out. I often got screwed because of other students who didn't care. Even in college. Exactly. I wouldn't have a problem with it if the kids actually benefited. But in reality, I don't see how anyone wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Katia Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I remember doing group projects in middle school. As the straight A student, there were two types of students that I worked with as 'partners'. The word 'partner' is used very loosely here, btw. Type 1: the not-so-great student that wanted a better grade and was willing to 'let' me do all the work so that his/her grade would improve. Type 2: the student who was a fairly good student, but not straight A, who was jealous that I was a better student and was willing to do whatever it took to bring my grade down. Only once did I ever work with another straight A student. We worked together, bounced ideas, and had a wonderful time...and received the appropriate grade. It seems to me if the educational system really wanted group projects to work, they would pair the kids with other kids that had the same ability level. But they have some misguided idea that by putting the more accomplished in with the not-so accomplished that somehow something wonderful will happen. It doesn't work. Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Eventually people do need to learn how to work in groups. Church committees, civic organizations, as an extended family, volunteering to lead youth organizations,etc. However, I learned how to do this when I joined a club in college. Group activities in my public school years were basically an opportunity to socialize, where the few motivated kids did all the work, the marginal students were pushed aside, and the slackers continued to do whatever it is that they do (or don't do). IMO, it is important to learn how to work with people who are different than you, who have very different opinions on how things should be done, and who follow different time schedules than you do. But these lessons are only learned when several of the groups members are actually participating. It came as a great shock to me (sheltered little farm girl) to come up against others in college who had completely different ideas than I did, who were just as convinced of the validity of their ideas as I was of mine. It was difficult to learn how and when to compromise and to know when to take a stand and not back down. And to learn how to deal with the concept that regardless of our differences, we would ultimately sink or swim together (life's not fair). I do think it would be helpful for teens to learn to deal with these things. Unfortunately that is not what is being taught in most ps group situations. As I mentioned before, IMO the concept usually learned in this arena is how to function with a whole lot of dead weight in your way. Or if you're struggling academically, how to give up and let someone else do all the work and make you look good. I guess it is good to experience this once or twice, so the student can learn how to deal with the situation, but it certainly doesn't add to the academic learning at all. And in my experience, doesn't teach any lessons that would be helpful in future corporate cubicle situations either. And finally, I agree wholeheartedly that ps teachers should teach their subjects. In my area they are always complaining that they don't have enough time to do that. Perhaps they would find more time if they could eliminate nonproductive exercises like group work where the groups never function as groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Maybe there is a way to make it work, but the way it is often done, does not work. I think group work is a great idea, done correctly. Most adults I know and have to work together with have no idea how to work with others in a productive way. The schools could do worse than to teach children how to cooperate with others, and we as homeschoolers should find a way to teach it, too. The "group project" in the other thread was garbage, though. Unless a part of the story was missing, there was no instruction in group work, no outcomes based on the quaity of the group work (just the test grade,) and no meaningful use of the group dynamic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I remember doing group projects in middle school. As the straight A student, there were two types of students that I worked with as 'partners'. The word 'partner' is used very loosely here, btw. Type 1: the not-so-great student that wanted a better grade and was willing to 'let' me do all the work so that his/her grade would improve. Type 2: the student who was a fairly good student, but not straight A, who was jealous that I was a better student and was willing to do whatever it took to bring my grade down. Only once did I ever work with another straight A student. We worked together, bounced ideas, and had a wonderful time...and received the appropriate grade. It seems to me if the educational system really wanted group projects to work, they would pair the kids with other kids that had the same ability level. But they have some misguided idea that by putting the more accomplished in with the not-so accomplished that somehow something wonderful will happen. It doesn't work. Ever. OMG - we were living parallel lives.... :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msjones Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 As with just about anything in any educational setting -- it depends on who is involved. Group work with a teacher who hands an assignment off to the groups and then ignores them is poor teaching, plain and simple. The group work isn't the problem; the lazy teacher is the problem. My husband gives group quizzes, but not group tests. He moves around the room during the quizzes, observing and noting who is participating in the problem and in what capacity. He believes it efficiently provides another 'layer' of assessment. He can quickly see who understands the concepts thoroughly enough to contribute, who is obviously behind, and who is making progress. He's not attempting to teach 'group dynamics' or how to deal with "mooching teammates" or "blah blah blah" or anything of the sort. He's providing a meaningful setting in which groups of math students discuss and apply math concepts. As they do so, he is actively assessing the students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalknot Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I think group work is a great idea, done correctly. Most adults I know and have to work together with have no idea how to work with others in a productive way. The schools could do worse than to teach children how to cooperate with others, and we as homeschoolers should find a way to teach it, too. :iagree: I didn't look at the other thread for specifics to that discussion, but generally speaking I agree with the above. Group work in the labor force can take on many different faces, it's not just simply a group project at a 9-5 type job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 :iagree: They spend an awful lot of time on these group projects. I'd like to know if there is even a shred of evidence that it does any good. My observation is that it doesn't. My generation didn't do a lot of group work in school. Yet we seem to work in groups just fine. I don't know why schools suddenly felt the need to emphasize group projects. Was there some crisis of working together that I don't know about? Working in groups wastes tons and tons of time, thereby reducing the requirement to actually teach anything, yet at the same time, it lends them the appearance of being busy doing "something important." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Group projects at work are totally different than group projects at school. At work: (1) There is usually a boss who has divvied out assignments. The group isn't just left to their own to figure something out. (2) The workers usually specialize in different areas. (3) The workers have been specifically chosen because of their expertise. Public schools have to take everyone. (4) If workers don't work, they can be fired. Not so in public school. Bingo. Everyone in the group has to somewhat care about the results. I also agree with the other poster who said that her teacher-husband is constantly moving around the room helping the groups to learn to work with each other. If the teacher is constantly guiding the kids through the group process, it has a chance. But when I was in school, the teachers just sat back while we did our group work. That isn't teaching anyone anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamturner Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 My generation didn't do a lot of group work in school. Yet we seem to work in groups just fine. I don't know why schools suddenly felt the need to emphasize group projects. Was there some crisis of working together that I don't know about? I don't recall doing a single group project until college and then I think I was in two group projects. I don't understand it either. How do the schools encourage self-motivation and individuality? And besides, not all people will end up in careers/fields that require group involvement. Look at Hermie in Rudolph, the elf that wanted to be a dentist. He never wanted to do the regular elf things but instead had a passion about dentistry and was made to feel like a misfit. It all worked out for him! :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Katia Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 OMG - we were living parallel lives.... :lol: :lol: Nice to know it wasn't just me. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I could never understand why none of the other kids saw that they didn't have to conform. If they had parents like mine, they DID have to conform. My parents would not have been happy to hear of me boycotting anything. The more important questions is why my parents didn't know we didn't have to conform. My Mother sat with me pulling a poem about death out of me line by tearful line for an English assignment in year 8. The same year my favourite grandpa died, which my English teacher was quite aware of. My mother should have excused me from the assignment. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I had to do a group project in college and let's just say the others got credit for my ideas and my work;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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