Question about Discipline

[emzhengjiu]

I'm one of the volunteers for Children's Church. We serve every 4 weeks. The age of the children range from 4 through about 10. A 5th grade boy is a problem. The director of the program told me he was a "shaken baby with special needs." He's very active and finds it difficult to sit still. I've told him several times that he is free to move around the room as long as he doesn't disturb the other children. When corrected, he turns his back to the adult and frankly is rude. I would not tolerate such behavior from my DDs but he's not my child. We have a rule that all four legs of the chair must stay on the floor. When he is sitting, he tilts the chair back as far as possible without toppling over. I correct him each time for this and other issues but he basically ignores me. I'm not sure how to proceed. When the director is present, she jokes with him to get him to obey but I'm beginning to find that annoying and time consuming. The director told me that he's the same with all the volunteers and to do the best I can. He does respond better to correction from men than from women. So do I ignore most of his behavior or correct him each time? It seems unfair to the other children to let one child get away with disobeying the rules but he does have unique needs. I would very much appreciate suggestions. His behavior becomes disruptive on a regular basis but some of the disruption comes from his reaction to my discipline attempts. Talking with his parents is not an option at least at this time.

 

Thanks so much.

 

Ann

[amy g.]

I wish I had advice. My 11 year old quit Sunday School because she could not stand to see children blatantly disobeying adults week after week.

 

At another church, the director had a high school age boy sit next to the special needs child and try to keep him on task. If this was unsuccessful, he took him to his parents in the sanctuary.

 

 

Teachers were only expected to teach not also deal with discipline problems. Oh, I can not tell you how much I miss that church.

[Impish]

I just can't fathom why talking to the parents wouldn't be an issue. A disruptive child should be excused from the program, imo.

[Garga]

This isn't a complete answer, but are a few ideas. I teach Children's Church for the preschoolers, and before my class starts, all the kids are together to sing and I help out in there with the 4-12 year olds, so I sort of understand the setting.

 

1. Is he hungry? I have one little boy who comes hungry, but he's only been in my class a couple of times. He's awful unless I give him a snack. (He has a very difficult family situation and I'm not sure if he's fed breakfast or not.) The day I figured out about the snacks was the day he was running around during free play-time scowling. I asked him what was wrong and he screamed, "STOP SAYING THAT!!" (I'd just said, "M--what's wrong?"). I moved toward him to see what he was so upset about and he kept running away from me and screaming, "STOP SAYING THAT!" to me. Finally, when I figured I'd give him some room, he threw a toy at me as hard as he could. I had no idea what to do or how to discipline this.

 

That's when I said, "Are you hungry?" (I'm assuming that God gave me those words!! Cause that sure wasn't what I really wanted to say!) He gave a furious nod. When I said, "Lets get you something to eat," he visibly started and looked incredulous. He was hesitant and wary (I felt like I was breaking in a wild horse or something), but he followed me to the room with snacks. (While my helper was with the other kids.) I sat next to him (not across, as I didn't want to be intimidating.) We sat there in silence, side-by-side, while he ate. After that, he was fine for that lesson. Unfortunately, he hasn't been in my class since. (He usually goes to the later church service.)

 

If it's you and dh, start by finding out if he's hungry and then take him to the back or somewhere and give him one or two powdered donuts, or something soft. Do this where the other kids can't see, if possible.

 

1b. Don't give crunchy food to kids at church. They take forever to eat it. When I give the kids cookies or something, snack time lasts forever. When I give them each a small powdered donut, snack time is over in seconds. Give him a cup of water when the donut is done.

 

2. Do you best to form an attachment with him. This is why the food works well. If not food, then something else. That's probably why the one person jokes with him. S/he's trying to form an attachment. Kids respond better to someone that they feel cares about them. To start forming the attachment:

 

3. Be as close to him as you can. Sit next to him, but don't necessarily talk. (Or dh sits. Whoever is not actively teaching.)

 

4. Make him your helper. If there's anything even remotely small that you can have him do, have him do it. Like, if you hold up a picture, have HIM hold up the picture. If you need a tissue, ask him to go across the room to bring it to you.

 

I don't think these things will solve it, but some of them may help. If he really has special needs then stop comparing him to your kids, it'll just frustrate you. Deal with him for who he is. Also, your kids know you love them and they trust you. This little boy doesn't know you, and maybe hasn't built up trust in you yet. You can't compare other kids to your own, because there are differing levels of attachment involved.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Garga

[rwjx2khsmj]

For me, the logical consequence for not sitting in a chair properly would be to sit on the floor. I know that doesn't really address the issue as a whole but it's all I've got right now.

[Garga]

And always speak in a very matter of fact tone. And speak in low tones. And use as few words as possible.

 

"Pete--all four legs on the floor." Matter of fact--not sing-songy. Low tones--not high pitched girly tones. Few words--no lecture.

 

And I agree with the above person--if you give him 2 warnings about the chair legs, on the 3rd time, take the chair. Tell him ahead of time that you'll take it. Then, he sits right at your feet on the floor.

[Melinda in VT]

What would you suggest if this were your child and it were school?

 

Some things my kids' school has done for similar issues: let kids turn their chairs around and straddle them, have kids sit on balls, have kids sit on T-stools

 

How many different types of learning styles does your church school accommodate? Can you incorporate more movement? More art projects? More singing? More role playing?

[thowell]

I agree with other posters. When we teach Sunday School a disruptive child is giving a few chances to behave and then taken to the parents. It is not ideal as you want all children to have a chance to learn but it is really not fair to all the rest of the children who are behaving.

[NorthwestMom]

A child with traumatic brain injury is not likely to behave in the same way as a healthy child. He is also less likely to respond to traditional behavioral management. Due to his brain injury, he likely has far less control over his behavior than you expect.

 

Does anyone know how he is handled at school? If you could follow the same behavior plan, that would probably work the best. He will be familiar with the progression of cues, redirections, consequences, etc. If you know he responds better to men, try to get a male volunteer to work with him. He could probably benefit from having an additional role model in his life. If it is better to joke with him than giving him explicit redirection, then do what works.

 

You say you don't tolerate such behavior from your kids, but you can't compare them. He might look like a normal kid on the outside, but his brain is not normal and does not function like your children's brains do. If he was blind, would you expect him to see? No. Try to think of him as "behavior blind". Just like with a person with a visual disability, you have to try different ways to get the information across.

 

I think it would be very sad if a CHURCH kicks a child with brain damage out of children's programming, unless that child is a danger to others. Jesus did not say, "Only the best behaved kids can come unto me. The bratty ones have to sit with their parents." Maybe he needs continuous one-on-one. If you can get a volunteer for that, that would be great. I know it will be difficult to make arrangements like that, but what a gift to this child. I guarantee you that his life is going to be difficult and often painful, due to his brain injury. Any grace you can give him will not go to waste.

[LittleIzumi]

There was a boy in our sunday school class like that. He ended up being diagnosed with Asperger's later. We tried all the normal creative sorts of behavior encouragement :tongue_smilie:. We learned to 1) :chillpill: :lol: about some of the rules (the little ones), 2) candy is a great incentive (tiny one at the end of class for everyone IF they were good. If he acted up, no little candy), and 3) it was during church so the parents were there, and if he acted up TOO much, we found out which parent was the least fun and threatened to get/went and got that parent. I.e., if we got his dad they would just hang out in the hallway and he didn't mind. If we got his mom, she would make him sit in her class and he HATED it, so we would get her if he was having an out-of-control day. He did respond to dh better in general, too.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I wish I had advice. My 11 year old quit Sunday School because she could not stand to see children blatantly disobeying adults week after week.

 

 

 

 

We have a Sunday school dropout here as well. My ds11 has stopped going into his class and sits with us through church (which I'm really okay with!) because of the disrespect that was being shown to the adults and others in the class. I thought it was a more cultural thing since this culture in over-indulgent with their children's behavior, but, I guess not!

[LibraryLover]

What would you suggest if this were your child and it were school?

 

Some things my kids' school has done for similar issues: let kids turn their chairs around and straddle them, have kids sit on balls, have kids sit on T-stools

 

How many different types of learning styles does your church school accommodate? Can you incorporate more movement? More art projects? More singing? More role playing?

 

 

Ooooh, seeing little children as the individuals they are! Such a rebel you are! :D

[EmilyK]

I can imagine some of the frustration that the OP feels. I have seen an "aide" type situation for a disruptive kid work well, and I agree with the sitting on a ball idea.

 

My kids' Sunday school and choir is full of, as my kids put it, kids whose brains don't work right. When they talked to me about it, I tried to acknowledge their frustration, but pointed out that perhaps church was one of the few activities they were allowed to do, and how hard it must be for them not to be able to control themselves.

[LibraryLover]

I can imagine some of the frustration that the OP feels. I have seen an "aide" type situation for a disruptive kid work well, and I agree with the sitting on a ball idea.

 

My kids' Sunday school and choir is full of, as my kids put it, kids whose brains don't work right. When they talked to me about it, I tried to acknowledge their frustration, but pointed out that perhaps church was one of the few activities they were allowed to do, and how hard it must be for them not to be able to control themselves.

 

 

Not to mention, kids have to sit and sit and sit at school, in the car, in church, etc etc etc Then there they go again, sitting again when in Sunday school. It's too much. Aren't there other ways to learn and be? Especially for a Special Needs kid as mentioned in the OP?

Edited November 9, 2009 by LibraryLover

[mrsrevmeg]

I have a boy in my class that will not do what I say, no matter what. I give the kids a snack at the beginning of class, when I am teaching the lesson. Then we clean up and do crafts, acting out the Bible story etc.... If K will not stay in his seat or will not keep the legs on the floor, he loses his chair. He has to stand during the rest of the activity. We have a treasure box. If they are good, they get to pick some little trinket from said treasure box. I am more lenient on him, knowing his situation, than with other children. But he is not allowed to ruin church for the children who are well behaved.

[HayesW]

I would talk to his parents first. Just ask if they have any suggestions for keeping 4 on the floor. There may be a simple answer that they know that you haven't figured out yet.

 

You are giving him the leniency you can, by allowing him to walk around as long as he doesn't bother others.

[Harriet Vane]

Sounds like he needs a buddy.

 

On the one hand, he is genuinely time-consuming and irritating. On the other hand, if he has special needs then he needs and deserves a different kind of attention, and more attention. You cannot do this AND teach the entire class effectively.

 

Do you have an aide to help you in the class? Are you alone when you teach? If so, this is not a great church policy (not your fault though). There should always, always, always be two adults present with children in a church program. A teaching aide should then plan to do the discipline while you do the teaching.

 

In addition to an aide, if this kid is truly needy, he may need an aide (or a buddy) all to his own. Don't announce it to anyone. Just quietly put such a person in place. Talk to the buddy volunteer privately ahead of time about his/her role helping this child. Make sure the volunteer can correct the child with a smile and with gentleness, without disrupting the class. Someone who is consistent in addressing the needs but gentle at the same time could really turn this whole situation around.

 

I did do this for a particular child one year at church (recruited a buddy for the kid) and it really made a difference.

 

I think also of an experience I had with one of my neighbors. Their son is severely ADHD. I was watching him and his sisters one day, and we stopped at the grocery store. It was a bad day for this guy (10yo at the time??)--he was bouncing all over the place and totally spastic. I was having to correct him constantly--every minute or two. In exasperation I told him he had to hold onto the cart. He tried but was bouncing away within seconds. Then I put his hand gently on the handle where I was pushing, put my hand over his, and said, "I'm just going to help you by holding your hand here with mine."

 

He looked at me with such gratefulness and thanked me for helping him.

 

This moved me profoundly. I went from being totally irritated with him to suddenly understanding that he genuinely wanted to obey and really, truly, could not control himself. It changed my perspective on ADHD and special needs permanently.

 

The point is to assume that he wants to obey but does not have that ability. So, set up the situation in such a way that he can get the help he needs to participate, and you are able to teach the entire class. A buddy for him would help a great deal.

[emzhengjiu]

These are great ideas. Thanks. I have no problem with the boy walking around as long as he doesn't disturb other kids. If he is sitting, he can straddle the chair if he wishes but he can't make the chair into a toy. The larger issue for me is how much tolerance should I have for his behavior compared to the other children. Do the class rules apply to him even though he has special needs? He is disruptive but not to the point I would ask for him to be taken to his parents.

 

There are always two volunteers but the other person with me is not very helpful. Most of the time, this boy makes it hard to concentrate on teaching the other children. I'm going to talk with the director again to see if the parents have some suggestions.

[emzhengjiu]

"A child with traumatic brain injury is not likely to behave in the same way as a healthy child. He is also less likely to respond to traditional behavioral management. Due to his brain injury, he likely has far less control over his behavior than you expect."

 

Edited to add that I agree with this and want to show this young man grace. Since we're a small church, extra volunteers aren't always available. We're tried teen helpers but so far they haven't helped with this particular situation but I'm going to try again.

Edited November 10, 2009 by emzhengjiu

[Sweetpeach]

2. Do you best to form an attachment with him. This is why the food works well. If not food, then something else. That's probably why the one person jokes with him. S/he's trying to form an attachment. Kids respond better to someone that they feel cares about them. To start forming the attachment:

 

3. Be as close to him as you can. Sit next to him, but don't necessarily talk. (Or dh sits. Whoever is not actively teaching.)

 

4. Make him your helper. If there's anything even remotely small that you can have him do, have him do it. Like, if you hold up a picture, have HIM hold up the picture. If you need a tissue, ask him to go across the room to bring it to you.

 

I don't think these things will solve it, but some of them may help. If he really has special needs then stop comparing him to your kids, it'll just frustrate you. Deal with him for who he is. Also, your kids know you love them and they trust you. This little boy doesn't know you, and maybe hasn't built up trust in you yet. You can't compare other kids to your own, because there are differing levels of attachment involved.

 

I think these are all fabulous suggestions. I also try to have behaviour kids come to my house for lunch, get to know their parents, make a point to have a conversation either before or after church. If a kid knows you love him, he'll be more apt to receive a gentle correction and stay the course during the lesson. I also make great use of joking around with behavious kids. I understand that disciplining a church kid is a battle that I will lose every. single. time. L/L situation if I engage, because the result will be me sending the child upstairs.

 

A W/W is when I look at the child as a little person who needs me to build a spiritual bridge towards him. I take on behaviour kids as a blessing from God - they help me see His true nature towards me. I'm that rascally little kid that can't sit still and won't receive direction from Him, yet He chases me and pursues me with relentless abandon. I get to practice that with kids who just can't get there with behaviour.

 

Warmly, Tricia

[katemary63]

I wish I had advice. My 11 year old quit Sunday School because she could not stand to see children blatantly disobeying adults week after week.

 

Wow! Isn't that a shame. But I understand why. I teach K-2 Sunday School. Our kids are often HORRIBLE! I have no idea what to do. They never listen to me. I hate it. Maybe I'm not cut out to be a SS teacher?

 

At another church, the director had a high school age boy sit next to the special needs child and try to keep him on task. If this was unsuccessful, he took him to his parents in the sanctuary.

This was actually going to be my suggestion. I would ask the director for a permanent helper just for that kid. That way, you won't have to deal with it at all and if the kid gets disruptive, the helper can at LEAST take him in the hallway if not to his parents. Edited November 10, 2009 by katemary63

[kalanamak]

A child with traumatic brain injury is not likely to behave in the same way as a healthy child. He is also less likely to respond to traditional behavioral management. Due to his brain injury, he likely has far less control over his behavior than you expect.

 

 

 

Can he eat while walking around? Tipping can cause a fall. Your other children might need to learn that just because a child doesn't have an external deformity that makes it obvious, people have different brains. My son learned this at 4 or 5 with a low IQ visitor. Perhaps you could clue the others (kids) into this reality of this situation.

 

My (grown but mostly young) DD ward has more that one eater-while-walking.

[lgm]

I'm one of the volunteers for Children's Church. We serve every 4 weeks. The age of the children range from 4 through about 10. A 5th grade boy is a problem. The director of the program told me he was a "shaken baby with special needs." He's very active and finds it difficult to sit still. I've told him several times that he is free to move around the room as long as he doesn't disturb the other children. When corrected, he turns his back to the adult and frankly is rude. I would not tolerate such behavior from my DDs but he's not my child. We have a rule that all four legs of the chair must stay on the floor. When he is sitting, he tilts the chair back as far as possible without toppling over. I correct him each time for this and other issues but he basically ignores me. I'm not sure how to proceed. When the director is present, she jokes with him to get him to obey but I'm beginning to find that annoying and time consuming. The director told me that he's the same with all the volunteers and to do the best I can. He does respond better to correction from men than from women. So do I ignore most of his behavior or correct him each time? It seems unfair to the other children to let one child get away with disobeying the rules but he does have unique needs. I would very much appreciate suggestions. His behavior becomes disruptive on a regular basis but some of the disruption comes from his reaction to my discipline attempts. Talking with his parents is not an option at least at this time.

 

Thanks so much.

 

Ann

 

Since it's Children's Church, and he is on the older end of the age range, could he be given responsibilities that will have him moving rather than sitting and lead him to engage?

 

I'd also ask his parents for advice. Perhaps his therapist has advised a bouncy ball, a hand squeezer, or some sort of protocol to use when he does his school work that he could use to help himself here. They could also tell you what is effective in redirection with him.

[specialmama]

I think it would be very sad if a CHURCH kicks a child with brain damage out of children's programming, unless that child is a danger to others. Jesus did not say, "Only the best behaved kids can come unto me. The bratty ones have to sit with their parents." Maybe he needs continuous one-on-one. If you can get a volunteer for that, that would be great. I know it will be difficult to make arrangements like that, but what a gift to this child. I guarantee you that his life is going to be difficult and often painful, due to his brain injury. Any grace you can give him will not go to waste.

 

BANG ON. My son has special needs and frankly, it would not be Christ-like to separate him from the other kids. It is WRONG to kick him out. Period. Christ did not come to heal the perfect, He came for the sick. If church can't reach out to special people, then who can? This child and his family needs all the love and acceptance the Body can dish out. The kids in the class are going to see your love for him and THAT will have a far greater impact on them for all of eternity than if you stuck to the best curricula Christendom has to offer and never had a challenging kid in the midst.

I also agree with the buddy. My son has rotating volunteers and this makes all the difference in the world. The aide is there to help redirect him and help him integrate.

I am so blessed to have a wonderful church that reaches out and welcomes every single person, going out of their way to meet needs, regardless of what baggage people may bring.

[Sonshine]

He sounds like he has sensory needs to me. The 4 on the floor may be impossible for him. Some kids are unable to stop trying to move the chair when sitting on it. Walmart, Target, etc. has the yoga balls for less than $16. Someone on this board previously had a thread about what size ball to get for what height kid. If the church can get one for him to sit on that may help a lot. It is just flat out unfair to expect that type of kid not to rock the chair.

[Beth in OH]

Our church has an "integrated" special needs approach. A volunteer is assigned to our special needs kids to help them be successful in a regular Children's Ministry class. Perhaps this could work for you--work with your director and the parents to establish appropriate limits for the child, and then have a one-on-one volunteer in your class to implement the limits.