Writing Suggestions for advanced reader?

[ValkyrieMom]

My 3rd grade DD is at a 12th grade reading level. She's been tested as having a photographic memory (you wouldn't think it was bragging if you knew how grueling it is for me. Ever try to discipline a child who can recite you verbatim?):glare:

 

Anyway, we are new to homeschooling and I am having a hard time choosing a writing plan for her. IEW and Classical Writer seem more up her ally, but I don't want to take the joy out of learning with something too involved (And quite frankly I don't know if I have the patience for this. I'm wound pretty tight right now and DD and I butt heads easily...)

 

She is naturally creative and very artistic, but I want something with structure and that takes the guess work out for me until I find my footing.

 

What would you recommend?

Edited October 1, 2009 by ValkyrieMom

[dangermom]

I have a similar advanced reader girl. I do like Classical Writing, and the first two years are not heavy. Aesop only happens every other week, so you can do other stuff on the off week, like give her a creative writing prompt and see what she comes up with.

 

I have no experience with IEW and I have not been terribly impressed with the Writing Strands books I've seen, so I can't be any more helpful than that, sorry.

[Laura Corin]

Unless she is equally talented in writing, I would beware of using something too advanced: the skills of reading and writing are quite separate. I don't know the two programmes you mention, so I don't know if they would be suitable.... I kept writing very low key at that age.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[zaichiki]

I was thinking IEW too. I haven't seen it yet, but I've been considering purchasing it. (So MANY good reviews!) The only reason I don't have it yet is the price.

 

Have you seen Imitations in Writing from Veritas Press? I used that for a bit with ds when he was 8.

[Misty]

I have a daughter like that and I have done a lot of unschooling in this area. She is creatively gifted and also has somewhat of a photographic memory (though her working memory stinks!). She was reading very young and has never had a spelling lesson yet was spelling at adult level by age 9. She is 12 now and writing novels. I think she is on her 3rd novel. Anyway, she did not tolerate structured writing programs very well. She just has a gift and she wanted to let it flow (and flow it did!). We do use writing programs, but I am very relaxed with them and I don't require that she complete all the lessons. She did Lightning Literature & Composition last year, but I would not recommend this for a 3rd grader.

 

The most important thing you can do at this age is make sure she is reading good quality literature. A child with a photographic memory (and any child for that matter) will *memorize* how to write fom the books she is reading. If she is reading twaddle, she will eventually write twaddle. Have you looked at Ambleside Online? http://www.amblesideonline.org

 

Also, copywork and dictation are good for this age. You might also want to start English From the Roots Up or something similar.

[Misty]

I'm also curious to know... Does your daughter have Synesthesia? It's common for girls who are creatively gifted with photographic memories to have Synesthesia. My daughter sees colors with numbers, letters, days of the week, and months.

[Mandy in TN]

Anyway, we are new to homeschooling and I am having a hard time choosing a writing plan for her. IEW and Classical Writer seem more up her ally, but I don't want to take the joy out of learning with something too involved (And quite frankly I don't know if I have the patience for this. I'm wound pretty tight right now and DD and I butt heads easily...)

 

...

 

What would you recommend?

 

Get TWSS and just let her watch the the DVDs. With a photographic memory this should give her some ideas of how to put words on paper (how to organize her thoughts, how to add interest and variety) and how to branch off to create her personal style.

 

My boys have all enjoyed Andrew Pudewa. My oldest dubbed him ferret man. If she enjoys the videos, you could always purchase one of the many IEW based programs.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[ValkyrieMom]

I'm also curious to know... Does your daughter have Synesthesia?

 

I've never heard of Synethesia. I had her evaluated by a top Child Psychologist in our state (I thought maybe it was ADD or something. Turns out it was inherited...) Anyway, she was tested for a number of things, don't remember all of what. Nothing mentioned about Synesthesia. I'll have to look it up and ask Doc about it if I think it applies...Thanks for the heads-up.

[homeschoolally]

great luck with IEW for my son, who sounds similar. I dont think it has taken the joy out of writing for him at all--although I think it has helped to do it in a group setting (classical conversations essentials)

feel your pain about the photographic memory issue--although it has been tremendously helpful in homeschooling classically, he remembers EVERY word I say--add to that hyperacousis (extremely sensitive hearing) and he remembers everything I say to anyone from a mile away!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Misty]

I've never heard of Synethesia. I had her evaluated by a top Child Psychologist in our state (I thought maybe it was ADD or something. Turns out it was inherited...) Anyway, she was tested for a number of things, don't remember all of what. Nothing mentioned about Synesthesia. I'll have to look it up and ask Doc about it if I think it applies...Thanks for the heads-up.

 

It's not anything you need to ask her doctor about or test for. The simplest way to find out is ask your daughter, "What color is 5?" If she answers instantly with a color, then quiz her on a few more. Most people with synesthesia see colors with numbers and letters, but there are other forms. You can read about it on Wikipedia. It's more of an interesting quirk than anything. Nothing that you need to discuss with your doctor. If you really want to test her for it, the best thing to do is go to http://www.synesthete.org and have her take the battery. It will take a couple of days to complete this test.

[ValkyrieMom]

I think I'm getting the bigger picture here. I think I've been so overwhelmed being new to homeschooling, etc.

I love these boards. You've all been very helpful. I'm feeling a lot more confident now.

[JennW in SoCal]

Personally, I've never used a writing program and prefered to follow the WTM recommendations. You could start with copy work or dictation or if she is beyond that perhaps have her write narrations. Check out the articles on writing found here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/article-index/

 

Creative writing is another matter entirely. If she is creative, then just let her write and draw whatever she wants to do. I wouldn't worry about formalizing that kind of writing at such a young age.

 

My kids didn't have to do much writing until they were much older -- about 10, even 12 for my oldest -- and they transitioned quickly from narrations to short research reports to essays. But we always read aloud, listened to audio books together and they were advanced readers, and we always talked about everything we were reading. In other words they were not in a literary and language vacuum -- I just was uber relaxed about writing!

[joannqn]

I like IEW. My daughter also has a high reading level. She loves to write creative stories, but I wanted to be sure she learned to write on a more formal level. One of the things that I really like about IEW is that you can't get away with doing less than what is required.

 

Let me try to explain. Say you have a writing assignment that is open-ended, such as "Pretend you are a reporter who sees your neighbor secretly enter your home and do a good dead. Describe what you saw happen." For a creative writer who wants to do the assignment can have fun with it. However, my daughter didn't want to do writing assignments, so I'd get 2-3 sentences that told what she saw when the neighbor entered the home. Minimal effort but she completed the assignment as written. (This is very similar to an actual assignment in one writing curriculum we tried...it might have been Writing Strands which we did NOT like.)

 

Now, with IEW, you get an assignment that says, "Here are some source texts about ants. Write a three paragraph essay about ants. Each paragraph needs to be about a different topic pertaining to ants. Each paragraph should have a topic sentence, a clencher sentence 3-5 supporting sentences, an adjective, an adverb, a who/which clause, a because clause, a strong verb, and not contain any banned words." A checklist is included to ensure the student remembers everything and helps you with grading. Later assignments add in introduction and conclusion paragraphs for the 5 paragraph essay.

 

It starts with imitation. What you get, initially, looks almost identical to the source texts provided, especially with kids who have good memories. That's ok. As you add in those extras, the descriptive words, the different clauses, you are practicing varying your sentence structure. Over time, the student develops their writing into their own style.

 

The TWSS teaches you how to teach writing and covers all of the units discussed by the curriculum. You can use any source texts that are appropriate for your student's level. You can provide the student with assignments that go with your history, science, or literature studies. (My kids did their first writing assignment for the year this week...on the Grand Canal...which we learned about in history.) It is a program you can continue to use; it's not based on a grade level.

 

The SWI teaches directly to the student and source texts are provided for the assignments, so it wouldn't complement your other studies. Once you are done with the SWI, you'd get the SICC which continues the class with the units not covered in the SWI. These come in three different levels that you choose based on your student's level when you start.

 

My daughter did SWI last year. This year, I'm teaching both of mine using the TWSS...so my daughter is getting some review for the first half of the school year (but I'll make it a bit more challenging).

[PeterPan]

You might try Writing Tales 2. I did it as a co-op class with a girl like that, and she enjoyed it immensely. It covers a lot of the same skills as IEW, but not in such a banal way. After that, I suggest you cover outlining and paragraphing in 5th using whatever history spine you'd like to outline (we're using the DK Children's Encyclopedia of American History because we're doing american) and a straightforward workbook like Paragraph Writing Made Easy. Then in 6th jump into CW with Homer for Older Beginners. I got Homer A for my dd, and there's just too much overlap from WT2 to be worthwhile that close. The year off for paragraphing is good, then going back to the progymnasta approach. Right now in 5th, while dd is doing PWME, I have her doing paragraphs on her history rabbit trail reading a la WTM. My theory is to bump her up to 3 paragraph essays for 6th to have her ready for the writing in Omnibus come 7th. But that's probably more than you were wanting to know.

 

In any case, yes the progymnasta can be a lot of fun for a creative person with incredibly strong memory. It means they skip the basic retelling stage and go directly to enhancements, which is what WT encourages. CW doesn't really encourage that and isn't actually as interesting at the lower levels. I definitely prefer WT2 for that level. (better models, more fun, more explicit discussion of writing enhancement, did I mention better models and more fun?)

[Donna]

I am liking IEW for my kids. We've been using it for the past 6 months. My dd is also very advanced in her reading skills, has a photographic memory, and loves to write creatively. IEW is teaching her to write more formal papers while she is still writing or typing creative stories on her own, so it hasn't killed any love for writing. The kids do laugh at Andrew on the DVDs but they enjoy the program overall.

 

I had been using Writing Power but needed something, for me, that took the planning out of it because life just got too hectic. Also, as another person said, it requires them to write a certain amount in a certain way so, for my boys who didn't like to write, having a goal or target was very helpful.

[love2read]

It's common for girls who are creatively gifted with photographic memories to have Synesthesia. My daughter sees colors with numbers, letters, days of the week, and months.

 

One of my daughters who is in college has a photographic memory and she has synesthesia. When she was younger I couldn't figure out what she was talking about when she would tell me it was greenday :glare: Incidentally, she's a straight A student, but never tested out as gifted despite her total recall. I'm glad for that now.

[love2read]

Misty, I wouldn't use anything until she's older. Let her just have a go of it on her own for now so that she develops a love for writing. If she's academically gifted in the language arts she will naturally write well if she is reading quality literature. With our oldest I used IEW and an older classical writing program when he was around 14, but he didn't really need it and we dropped it.

 

I did use IEW and a few other programs with the middle children who I wouldn't label as gifted and my youngest who is 8 writes at a very high level without a program, so don't feel that you have to use a program. I do use a penmanship workbook with her.

[Carol in Cal.]

First, I agree with others who suggested teaching to her writing level rather than to her reading level. That's crucial! But you can leverage her reading into her writing if you:

 

Use Classical Writing to help her really dig into and analyze what she reads, and then use that as a springboard for her own writing

 

and

 

Use Writer's Jungle to teach yourself to teach her to write engagingly. WJ suggests many of the same literature-rich elements that TWTM does, and also suggests copywork and dictation as does TWTM. These are credible steps to good writing, especially for someone who already reads so well. Where WJ differs from TWTM is that it encourages homeschoolers to encourage their children to write engagingly, and spells out how to go about that. TWTM emphasizes non-fiction and academic writing, while WJ covers creative and engaging 'article' writing as well.

 

A combo of these would result in a superb writer, and would leverage your DD's reading abilities better than any other writing program I can imagine.

 

I don't recommend IEW, not because it's no good, but because it tends to impose a specific style on writers. Your DD will probably derive her style from her excellent reading, and as long as you enrich her with great literature and poetry, I think that she would be better off becoming a good writer first, and then maybe polishing her writing with IEW down the line when she is in 7th grade or so, if desired. In other words, I think it's better as a secondary source for you rather than an initial or primary one.

 

Rod and Staff is quite skill-oriented and a little wooden. I don't think it's enough, all by itself.

 

She is a little young for Writing Strands. I really like Writing Strands, but I think that the other combo is better.

 

The way I would combine them is that I would start with Classical Writing. I would really get that going and do it pretty religiously for a couple of months. I would get WJ and start to read and absorb it--it's a big binder full of stuff, very well-written, but needs some digestion time. And I would get the Writing CD from Peace Hill Press and listen to it about 5 times. Then when you are really, really comfortable with the WJ and TWTM material, start interspersing it into the CW studies when you feel comfortable doing so. SJ and TWTM are written to the parent, not the student, so they really empower you and train you as a writing teacher.

 

In the meantime, read to your DD a lot even though she is reading at such an advanced level, and also make sure that you read her some poetry as well--"The Harp and The Laurel Wreath" is a good anthology. And I would also suggest making sure that she has a big variety of types of books to read to herself--probably you're already doing this. When I was a kid and an avid reader, my mom insisted that I had to take home and read one non-fiction book for every batch of 8 library books I got. I only really wanted to read fiction, so I read many, many biographies (because of all the non-fiction, those were the most like stories). It was good that she required that, but I would have benefitted even more if she had insisted on more of a mix--maybe one science book, one poetry, art, or craft book, and one history/biography book in each group of eight. The very few science books that I read thoroughly then I remember to this day. I could have had a much broader grounding in practical science if I had been required to read about it. I liked to read so much that I pretty much stopped talking and looking at things once I learned how. I used to read the mayonnaise jars and cereal boxes at the table just so that I could read SOMETHING.

[EKS]

I'm also curious to know... Does your daughter have Synesthesia? It's common for girls who are creatively gifted with photographic memories to have Synesthesia. My daughter sees colors with numbers, letters, days of the week, and months.

 

I had this! It was very strong when I was young and has gotten less so as I've gotten older.

[mchel210]

My 3rd grade DD is at a 12th grade reading level. She's been tested as having a photographic memory (you wouldn't think it was bragging if you knew how grueling it is for me. Ever try to discipline a child who can recite you verbatim?):glare:

 

 

Ok...first...I have to comment on your post...your child can quote you verbatim...that's funny. :001_smile: Mine does the same. I find this very annoying...:lol: Seriously...I dont remember what I said to my children 10 minutes ago...and they remind me what I said, wore, etc 4 years ago!!!! Hello....:rofl:

 

I just love that you point that out. OK...so I am cracking up...sorry.

I feel the same way. You gotta love it!! My kids blow me away when they pull this on me!

 

 

Now...

 

For writing. I use IEW with my dd. She writes amazing. Last year we used SWI B with her brother and she did up to week 6. I stopped but I am going to pick it back up now and continue with her. She is also in 3rd grade. I think it really gave my dd a method to expand her papers. I imagine you can get away starting with banned words if you dont want to buy the whole IEW yet, but if you can ...I would start with SWI.

 

I didnt have a problem using "B" with my dd but I realized she did prefer the lessons from the "A" program. When she does her own papers they tend to be much more advanced then the ones listed in SWI B but the using the simpler paragraph worked out good for my dd.

[smrtmama]

Our DS1, Captain Science, is a very advanced reader, but dislikes most writing. He's enjoying Writing Strands a great deal.

[Donna]

Misty, I wouldn't use anything until she's older. Let her just have a go of it on her own for now so that she develops a love for writing. If she's academically gifted in the language arts she will naturally write well if she is reading quality literature.

 

I would have to disagree on this point. I do not think being a good reader naturally correlates to good writing. It may work that way for some children but definitely not all. My oldest son (almost 14yo) has been reading since he was 3yo and tested at reading at a 12th grade level when he was 2nd grade age. He reads constantly and the books he picks tend to be classics or award winning writing...for the past 6 years or so they have been young adult to adult level literature.

 

His writing did not follow the same path. He can discuss literature orally with me complete with higher level analysis but has difficulty putting together a good essay despite using various programs. He hates to write and always has.

 

(His 7yo sister, however loves to write and writes all day long...fiction, nonfiction, lists, cards, notes, letters, emails. I think her writings rival her older brother's.)

[amtmcm]

We have focussed on a lot of writing because my DD's private school did an abysmal job in this area. So far we have used these and seen excellent results:

 

IEW

Write with the Best (for 3rd-12th grades so might be a good choice)

Just Write (3 levels for around 1st-5th grades)

 

I like the previous posters idea of letting her watch IEW's TWSS. My oldest DD is highly creative, LOVES to write poetry and short stories but had terrible organizational skills. IEW got her on track, taught her structure and to organize her thoughts. Write with the Best is teaching her to plan ahead and giving her excellent practice imitating the best authors.

 

Just Write is for younger children who need to start with the basics - writing a sentence, paragraph, using descriptive adjectives to make their writing more interesting, etc... Level 3 covers expository, narrative, descriptive and persuasive writing.

Edited October 12, 2009 by amtmcm