Poll: Why did your son quit Cub Scouts?

[kewb]

My ds wanted to join but I refuse to support an organization that discriminates.

[Elaine]

I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong. Homosexuals are excluded from youth membership according to the BSA itself:

 

"Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scouting’s values and beliefs."

 

http://www.bsalegal.org/morally-straight-cases-225.asp

 

Maybe it would be a good idea to follow some links and get "familiar" with the real story.

 

Bill

 

My whole issue is that homosexuals don't want to join because they want to be a part of the Boy Scout community, they simply want to say that they have infiltrated yet another group. Militant homosexuals do nothing to endear people to them by forcing groups to accept them.

 

And, if it bothers you so much start your own group. Although, I am sure it is more fun to sit at your computer and hurl insults and inflammatory rhetoric at others.

[Janet in WA]

No, I'm not wrong, dead or otherwise. So you don't need to be sorry.

 

In the interest of intellectual honesty, I'll supply the entire quote, part of which you omitted, because I'm sure you didn't do that intentionally. Again, there is no prohibition against gay boys being members. There is, however, a prohibition against boys who are avowed homosexuals having leadership positions. Again, not what you or Catherine said. And also, again, I don't need links. I already know all this. I can completely respect and understand if this information makes no difference in how you feel about the issue. My only interest is in making sure we all have our facts straight (no pun intended) here.

 

● Youth Leadership

Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scouting’s values and beliefs. Most boys join Scouting when they are 10 or 11 years old. As they continue in the program, all Scouts are expected to take leadership positions. In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Janet in WA

[calandalsmom]

My whole issue is that homosexuals don't want to join because they want to be a part of the Boy Scout community, they simply want to say that they have infiltrated yet another group. Militant homosexuals do nothing to endear people to them by forcing groups to accept them.

 

And, if it bothers you so much start your own group. Although, I am sure it is more fun to sit at your computer and hurl insults and inflammatory rhetoric at others.

 

 

Our cub scout group has several active parents who happen to be gay and they really are very quiet. I mean, no beads or leather or anything. Shocking, I know. The midwestern gay is as banal as his or her hetero peers.

[Elaine]

It's highly unlikely my son will participate in Cub Scouts, but *I* quit over coerced prayer.

 

Bill

 

Than why did you even post? This is a poll about why your son quit, not the reasons you would never join.

[TechWife]

My dh would LOVE what you just said. He firmly believes that the program has weakened itself by stetching to involve younger and younger boys and making their earliest experiences too much like that they will experience as older Scouts. I hope it's not true that boys burn out or lose interest, but dh has studied early childhood development, and has worked as a BSA professional for 30 years, and is firm in his belief that it is true.

 

I agree with your husband on this one. My son started in Cub Scouts as a Bear Scout and now is a 2nd Class Scout in our BSA troop. I know that my son would not have been successful in the pack environment in the earlier years, and I really think it would have been better to wait until the WEBLOS program for him to join, but all is working out, so no harm done in our case.

 

I think that having the program all the way down to Tigers not only expects too much from the kids behavior wise, but it also stretches the pack leadership and the parents whom the pack is depending on to volunteer. I know a few active Cub leaders who, when their sons bridged to Scouts, they hung up their volunteer hats & haven't been involved in scouts at the troop level. They were just too burned out.

 

The success of a pack or troop is greatly related to the quality of adult leadership. Leaders that are trained are so much more prepared - our troop is unique in that we have many asst. scoutmasters - I think around 15 right now. We also have at least five that have their Wood Badge and others that are working on it. There are additional parents serving on the troop committee and as merit badge counselors. Because that has been how our troop is, the new families come in and see that level of activity and the culture of training and parent volunteers is passed on to them.

 

In the end, it remains the boys' responsibility to take advantage of all that the BSA offers - good leaders will do whatever they can to see these boys grow into gentlemen ready to take part in their churches (if they so desire), families and communities. If the parents become educated about scouting, then they will be there to encourage their sons on the trail to Eagle.

 

Boy Scouts has been a great program for my son and our family. I could go on and on about its benefits, but perhaps that is for another thread!

[Spy Car]

My whole issue is that homosexuals don't want to join because they want to be a part of the Boy Scout community, they simply want to say that they have infiltrated yet another group. Militant homosexuals do nothing to endear people to them by forcing groups to accept them.

 

And, if it bothers you so much start your own group. Although, I am sure it is more fun to sit at your computer and hurl insults and inflammatory rhetoric at others.

 

Pot. Kettle Black. Elaine.

 

I stated the facts. The BSA discriminates against agnostics, atheists and gays. If saying so is inflammatory, too bad. It is the truth.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

No, I'm not wrong, dead or otherwise. So you don't need to be sorry.

 

In the interest of intellectual honesty, I'll supply the entire quote, part of which you omitted, because I'm sure you didn't do that intentionally. Again, there is no prohibition against gay boys being members. There is, however, a prohibition against boys who are avowed homosexuals having leadership positions. Again, not what you or Catherine said. And also, again, I don't need links. I already know all this. I can completely respect and understand if this information makes no difference in how you feel about the issue. My only interest is in making sure we all have our facts straight (no pun intended) here.

 

● Youth Leadership

Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scouting’s values and beliefs. Most boys join Scouting when they are 10 or 11 years old. As they continue in the program, all Scouts are expected to take leadership positions. In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position.

 

The extended quote in no way changes the fact that the BSA does not allow homosexuals as members. It only gives justification to the discrimination. Right?

 

So your suggestion that the BSA doesn't discriminate against gays is contradicted by the written policy of the BSA.

 

Thus your original assertion is false. And that is what's intellectually honest.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Er... the motto is "Be prepared". I'm pretty certain that cannot be construed as a prayer. :lol:

 

Right. I should have said "oath". I didn't last long :D

 

Bill

[Janet in WA]

The extended quote in no way changes the fact that the BSA does not allow homosexuals as members. It only gives justification to the discrimination. Right?

 

So your suggestion that the BSA doesn't discriminate against gays is contradicted by the written policy of the BSA.

 

Thus your original assertion is false. And that is what's intellectually honest.

 

Bill

Um, I never said the BSA didn't discriminate against gays. Nor did I suggest it. If you understood me to be suggesting that, I guess I wasn't clear. The BSA's written policy does not contradict anything I said. To which "original assertion" are you referring? Can you link me to my own quote where I'd find that assertion? The whole one, please. Edited September 30, 2009 by Janet in WA

[Audrey]

It would have been nice to continue but the group was struggling when we joined and disbanded between school years. I am sorry now that we ever joined because it was a huge disappointment for ds. The next nearest group is over 40 miles away. I love him, but I'm sorry. I just can't manage that drive every week.

[Catherine]

Thank you for sending that link.

 

I do think that referring to people as not "morally straight" is tantamount to prohibiting them. Clearly, our experience and that of others who've posted here belies that. By referring to all gay people as "not morally straight" by virtue of their homosexuality, I think the BSA, at the very least, is creating a false category of human beings that is, by definition, second class citizens. I disagree that sexual orientation is a predictable measure of morality. Nevertheless, BSA has clearly staked their continued existence on maintaining that position. We decided that we'd rather camp alone than support an organization that judges a person immoral because they are gay. Well, that, and all of the other problems I mentioned! Oh, and the district guy who showed up once a year at a meeting just to ask for donations.

[Spy Car]

Um, I never said the BSA didn't discriminate against gays. You said I said that. To which "original assertion" are you referring? Can you link me to my own quote? The whole one, please.

 

Here:

 

If your dh believed this, he was misinformed. There is absolutely no prohibition against boys -- or their parents -- being gay. Where did he get this information?

 

 

Bill

[Janet in WA]

Here:

 

 

 

 

Bill

You don't get it. But that's okay. It isn't necessary for you to.

[Night Elf]

Mean spirited boys. Male leaders encouraged fierce competition. I was told my son was perhaps just not meant for cub scouts. Ding dongs I thought.

[Stacia]

We decided that we'd rather camp alone than support an organization that judges a person immoral because they are gay.

 

We feel the same way.

 

(And my dh was even an Eagle Scout.)

[Spy Car]

You don't get it. But that's okay. It isn't necessary for you to.

 

Yes, I don't get someone saying something that isn't true. Then saying they never said what they said. Then being shown what they said. The saying the other person "doesn't get it".

 

The BSA discriminates against gays and agnostics and atheists. That is a plain fact.

 

Bill

[buddhabelly]

The BSA does not claim to be non-discriminatory, either. Just Google "Dale Boy Scouts" or something like that for the Dale decision. The BSA argued that they were a private religious organization and so were allowed to discriminate. So now they can discriminate, but they have a heckuva time renting public buildings (libraries, etc.) for their meetings because they are not a public organization.

 

Julie

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

My disclaimer is that I agreed to help write this new curriculum because I was told that it would be offered as "one option" for packs who felt they couldn't manage the old way of doing Cub Scouts. After the program was written, they then informed us that this new curriculum would be "the one and only delivery method" for the Cub Scout program. :glare:

 

I'm guessing that this is fast tracks. I'm wondering how they expect that they will enforce this as THE method for delivering Cub Scouting? I've been in three different packs over six years and have only seen 50% usage of even program helps.

 

I understand that something like Fast Tracks can be a great selling point for potential leaders as it gives them a recipe for success. But what do you do in November, when several boys have missed key meetings and need to make things up and someone else is already done because they stayed active over the summer.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I have three sons in scouting and don't have an issue with the BSA stance on homosexuality.

 

But it does strike me as a bit disingenuous to say that the restriction is on leadership, not membership. As soon as a scout hits First Class Scout rank, then a leadership position is a requirement for advancement. I don't know a whole lot of teens would would be interested in staying active in a troop while watching other scouts have all the leadership positions and knowing that they would not be allowed to advance in rank again.

 

If "As they continue in the program, all Scouts are expected to take leadership positions" and "In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position" then it does seem to follow that scouts who declare themselves to be homosexuals will find there is little encouragement to continue in the program at all.

 

How would I feel about my pre-teen sharing a tent with an openly homosexual scout? I'm not sure. I know that I have reservations about some of the scouts who are in the troop now, but that is based on their lack of maturity, self-control, wisdom and parental guidance, not orientation. And there are a couple that ds would probably rather never share a tent with again.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Sebastian (a lady)
No title

[Janet in WA]

I'm guessing that this is fast tracks. I'm wondering how they expect that they will enforce this as THE method for delivering Cub Scouting? I've been in three different packs over six years and have only seen 50% usage of even program helps

.Yes, it's Fast Tracks. What an unfortunate title. I don't think they can actually enforce it. They didn't really enforce the old method (based actually on 4 den meetings a month plus a pack meeting). But they supported it with literature and training, and the packs that used the program as designed had strong programs. What they'll do now is not provide support for any other method than Fast Tracks. And they'll train new leaders using the new model. In very little time, new units, new leaders and new boys will know only this new model. They may not choose to follow it, but if they don't, they'll be on their own entirely.

 

I understand that something like Fast Tracks can be a great selling point for potential leaders as it gives them a recipe for success. But what do you do in November, when several boys have missed key meetings and need to make things up and someone else is already done because they stayed active over the summer.

Bingo. And there are other problems too. For example, this new model won't work for LDS units because they meet every week year-round and their boys move from one level to the next on their birthdays. So the BSA has had to accommodate them with "supplements".

 

An interesting (and okay satisfying) thing is that the council that "pioneered" this, and initially had retention and advancement numbers that looked really good (which was the catalyst for this change) has now used this program for more than two years. Their retention and advancement numbers have taken a serious dive. Oops.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Janet in WA

[Janet in WA]

 

But it does strike me as a bit disingenuous to say that the restriction is on leadership, not membership.

Well, I can see why it might seem disingenuous. But, to me, it's more like a sticky wicket. I guess it might seem less disingenuous to say that if, at any point, a boy avows himself to be homosexual, he'll be kicked out of the troop. But that's not the point of the policy.The bottom line is that they don't want to place homosexual males in positions of authority over young boys. What's most likely to happen is that a boy who wants to continue to advance in the troop and to hold leadership positions is not going to avow homosexuality. Most boys don't at that age, whether they are in Scouting or not. Thus the "unlikely" verbiage. Edited September 30, 2009 by Janet in WA

[kalanamak]

Well, we were all prepared to start Cub Scouts when kiddo developed a passion for a sport. He works at it daily with his father, and since he is on fire for mastering it, I didn't think he'd have his heart in scouting.

[Janet in Toronto]

I voted "Other". Our reasons were poor behaviour of other cubs and activities that were too young/not interesting enough for our son.

[Peek a Boo]

It's highly unlikely my son will participate in Cub Scouts, but *I* quit over coerced prayer.

 

Bill

 

no --the oath isn't "coerced prayer"--

 

On my honor I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country

and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong,

mentally awake, and morally straight.

 

Upon membership, you agree that you have a religious life. The oath is clarified repeatedly that "duty to God" means whatever YOU mean it to be wrt YOUR religious worship.

 

If you consider it coerced prayer, then you or your parents misled the BSA when you joined and lied on the membership form or simply did not understand the religious policies of the BSA.

 

Now if a pack/troop really is forcing you to say a PRAYER, then I agree that would be grounds for disciplinary action from the Council and I wouldn't stay in a pack/troop until it was addressed.

 

=============================

 

we haven't quit yet. :)

[DawnM]

We haven't quit. My boys LOVE scouting! BUT, we are in a great troop/pack and I know when they did try a different one they didn't like it. It so depends on the pack!

 

Dawn

[Peek a Boo]

My son quit because the den was completely incompatible. They constantly dragged god into everything

 

On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God -- um, ok.....

and had no respect for those who are not conservative Christians.

NOT ok.

The Scouts medieval attitude on gays also was terribly troubling for me.

well, it's not medieval, it's very current. :)

 

now if i can ever find a gvt form that doesn't have medieval racist policies that would be a breath of fresh air. We automatically check every race box when given the option.

 

Last, the Scout's quirk for sending children begging door-to-door with cookies so unhealthy I wouldn't feed them to my dog was the show-stopper for me. I find this akin to the barely-clothed high school cheerleaders out at intersections "collecting" money for their team. This might have been a good idea back in Mayberry in the 1960's. In a large metro area it's a horrible idea foisted as "tradition" to bamboozle tens of thousands of parents to sell cookies and other junk food and send their money to the Scouts, as if they didn't have way too much already.

 

yeah. GSA has the same problem. At least there's healthy popcorn options.

 

Manymanymany children's organizations do something similar-- every single "fundraiser" is the equivalent of "begging" for money.

 

I'm assuming you won't send your children begging for money via college scholarships either, right? ;)

[Peek a Boo]

I didn't want him to sign up to begin with, because I am disgusted with the organization's homophobia,

 

actually, homophobia is a FEAR of homosexuality.

You might want to check that out a bit better:

 

A phobia (from the Greek: φόβος, phóbos, fear or morbid fear), is an irrational, intense, persistent fear of certain situations, activities, things, or people. The main symptom of this disorder is the excessive, unreasonable desire to avoid the feared subject.

 

The BSA isn't frightened of homosexuality, they merely deny membership and leadership positions to homosexuals. A homosexual parent would be welcome to attend scout meetings with their son, they simply would not be allowed to serve as an official member. That's hardly avoiding the feared subject, lol!

[Guest bbender]

Forgive the cross-post from the Tiger Thread, but I see that folks have commented on Fast Tracks and Program Helps and so on (and I see that Janet and I must have been in different parts of the same drafting team . . . and had the same concerns about "where's the fun" in Fast Tracks).

 

To that end, for those in the Program, I offer our revised Fast Tracks Plans, called "Fun and Flexible" Fast Tracks, which I started working on when this program went public a year ago (because it has some good points), but which I then whipped into a full version (with plenty of "bonus meetings" you can use, often in substitution) when I saw that Cub Scouts 2010 was previewed with a straight copy (no fun added) of Fast Tracks.

 

More on the thinking behind it is in this tread from another forum.

 

Hope this is useful for anyone in the program.