kalanamak Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 (I do spank, but very rarely, and only for something physically egregious, perhaps 2-3 times a year. I think spanking over this issue is not a good idea.) Kiddo is usually pretty good...generally kind and caring, but can get mouthy at times, is slow to obey at times, and often "forgets" his task when he stops to play. He has a very sharp memory with anything he wants to be a part of. Now he has started saying, very cheerily, "I don't care" for every punishment: toy loss, trip canceled, no dessert, etc. etc. Today, for dawdling with reminders on putting one simple thing away, and then, when it was away perfectly, giving it a whack so it would fall and make a very exciting sight, I gave him an hour to think it over in his room. He sang happily and announced he was "perfectly happy" waiting in his nearly toyless room. I think he does care, but is putting on a very brave front. He has started doing that with cuts and bumps, and with scary things as well. I was similar in the brave front philosophy (an example was when I was 4 and realized I was going to die someday. For a week at night I would cry, and my father would sit next to me and ask me what was wrong but I was too proud to admit fear over something like death, and I would not tell him), but would not have dreamed of dawdling or stopping to play when doing a task, if only because I had a pack of older brothers riding herd on me. I would have never said "I don't care" things. I might have thought it but not said it. I don't know what my folks would have done if I'd said it, but I didn't want to find out. I'm sure others have faced this. What did you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaT Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I had one like that. I would make him write sentences or bible verses, something applicable to the situation at the time. A LOT of them. They had to be in his best handwriting. If they were sloppy, he had to start over. After I looked them over for neatness, etc., I crumpled the paper up and threw it away right in front of him. I then said with a smile in my voice, "You can go play now, sweetheart." As an adult, he has told me that was the only punishment I ever gave him that really got under his skin and he would do anything to avoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraGB Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 At 7? What does he love? Mine are 10, and I remember dd going through something mildly similar at that age. Her favorite things...became mine. Whatever she loved, I took away. If that was still funny/cute, I took more away. And I kept it (I eventually gave it back, of course, but without pretty important things for a while, it makes an impression). Along with a very stern talk about who is in charge and respect (and at this age, why they need to be respectful). I think at this age, they are so testing what they can get away with. I probably won't win any mother-of-the-year awards for my method, but it worked (for now, anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Why do you want to punish him for forgetting and dawdling? What's the goal? To help him remember what he needs to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 initially, I thought nervous smile, but from your comments regarding his comments, I'm thinking testing and defiance (the one thing I do spank for, defiance that is) send him totally to his room for an entire day...no toys, no books, no naps, no bed...just sit there...all day....ALL DAY....still smiling...make it two days...ALL DAY. Do not allow him to participate in family meals either....he loses fellowship completely b/c no one wants to be around a disrespectful person. He eats in his room, with a time limit. You remove the food w/o speaking. Harsh? Yes. Effective -- it has been at our home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 If my child were doing that, I would suspect that the punishments were making him feel isolated from the family and that he was putting a brave face on his loneliness. The more he is punished, the less he feels part of the core family. When he next was naughty, I would draw him to me, give him a hug, and - while cuddling him - talk about how much he mattered to the family and how much we all loved him. Then I would talk about the responsibilities that come with family membership. He should then make simple amends for his misdeed (perform the chore he was asked to complete) and go on his way. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 initially, I thought nervous smile, but from your comments regarding his comments, I'm thinking testing and defiance (the one thing I do spank for, defiance that is) send him totally to his room for an entire day...no toys, no books, no naps, no bed...just sit there...all day....ALL DAY....still smiling...make it two days...ALL DAY. Do not allow him to participate in family meals either....he loses fellowship completely b/c no one wants to be around a disrespectful person. He eats in his room, with a time limit. You remove the food w/o speaking. Harsh? Yes. Effective -- it has been at our home. I just can't see Jesus doing that (as per your signature). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 Why do you want to punish him for forgetting and dawdling? What's the goal? To help him remember what he needs to do? He knows, he remembers, he just would rather stop and turn whatever is in front of him into a game. Time to put away the golf balls he was herding around the living room? Do it by rolling them one by one down the stairs, very slowly, and seeing if you can get any to not make it to the bottom. When confronted, take them downstairs, but when you get around the corner, start the same game with rolling down the hall. He'd like to do nothing but play ALLLLLLLLL day. Can't blame him, but I won't let him. My goal is to have him do what he is asked without 3 reminders and a stern warning in the last one, nor to have to stand over him every step of the way. He can clean his area up at a gallop if he wants to. Unfortunately, he seems to have outgrown the "let's see how fast we can get this rug clear" age. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 When he next was naughty, I would draw him to me, give him a hug, and - while cuddling him - talk about how much he mattered to the family and how much we all loved him. Then I would talk about the responsibilities that come with family membership. He should then make simple amends for his misdeed (perform the chore he was asked to complete) and go on his way. Laura Isn't it interesting that we are each given our individual children, and somehow...when we try...we usually do JUST what's right for them...even if it takes a few times? I can see each of the ideas as possible...and each of these solutions possible as a "solution" depending on the root of the problem. If like Laura's suggestion that it's that he needs to know he matters... Or, if it's total defiance... and he needs to be disciplined a different way... each way is discipline (Laura's way and the others.) Perhaps I'd try Laura's a couple of times, and then see if I needed to move to a "corrective/punitive" way... Carrie:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Ok, then I think the logical consequence would be something like sitting down and writing down the directions that he "forgot" to follow. Or doing the chore before a timer beeps, lest you add another chore on afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 If my child were yelling that he was happy to be in time-out, I would ignore it. He's doing it to get a reaction, and the best way to extinguish it is to carry on with the normal punishment (time-out, it seems) and maybe turn on some music so you can't hear him. He obviously isn't really happy to be punished so the time out is effective - he just wants you to think it isn't. I totally agree with Laura. In my experience with my 2 oldest kids (who are often complimented on their good hearts), teaching with love is the MOST effective way to discipline. I often respond to misbehavior by saying, "I was so surprised to see you do that, because I know that's not the kind of child you are" to let them know I expect better, and you know what, they have internalized those high standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 If my child were doing that, I would suspect that the punishments were making him feel isolated from the family and that he was putting a brave face on his loneliness. The more he is punished, the less he feels part of the core family. This is the first time he has been punished this way. I think he's had 2 five minute time outs the rest of the year. I did this today on impulse to see if it would work, and so I could talk about this with hubby and try to work on a game plan. I've had the "what Papa does for you and what you do for Papa" talk (he does this much more to Papa, but I witnessed today out the window, and it was rank disregard for a very reasonable request). I've had the "I know you want people to think you're a good fellow" talk (he nods and I believe him...."good fellow" is my praise for him e.g. "That's a good fellow" when he does something nice for a toddler or studies diligently for 30 minutes straight, etc). He's not "bad", but I see a trend of disregarding our requests and orders because he can "get away" with it in that he doesn't mind any punishment. He just loves to play. Can't seem to resist, and hums a happy tune through punishment. Listens closely to correction, agrees to be better, and doesn't follow through. Like he is too happy-go-lucky. (He has stubborn happy-go-lucky ancestors!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 He knows, he remembers, he just would rather stop and turn whatever is in front of him into a game. My older boys still do this. They just get carried away with their make-believe games sometimes. Maybe you and your son are having power struggles. Where one of you has to be the 'winner'. When my dc dawdle at teeth-brushing time, the consequence is having less time to read before bed. When they drag out cleaning up their stuff, they have less time for their fun games. And so on. I just point this out matter-of-factly to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 Ok, then I think the logical consequence would be something like sitting down and writing down the directions that he "forgot" to follow. Or doing the chore before a timer beeps, lest you add another chore on afterwards. I'll try to timer again. It worked when he was 4, but he'd gotten good enough at moving along, I'd put them away. I haven't done the writing, but I have found he doesn't like having to sit down and discuss what I just told him, and have him *repeat back to me* what he is to do. This must be very boring to him, because he squirms and wants to get on with things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I'll try to timer again. It worked when he was 4, but he'd gotten good enough at moving along, I'd put them away. There are still times I do it with my almost-9 year old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 If my child were yelling that he was happy to be in time-out, I would ignore it. I totally agree with Laura. In my experience with my 2 oldest kids (who are often complimented on their good hearts), teaching with love is the MOST effective way to discipline. I often respond to misbehavior by saying, "I was so surprised to see you do that, because I know that's not the kind of child you are" to let them know I expect better, and you know what, they have internalized those high standards. He never yells it. It is a chipper quiet mention as a toy is confiscated. "Oh, I was getting tired of that toy anyway" <angelic smile>. I do ignore it. Every now and then I say something like "so was I" and smile back, and ask if it is lovely we are in agreement, and he'll smile and say yes. I would be fearful, but might be able to overcome it, of using "I know that's not the kind of child you are" type statements. I never heard anything "loaded" like that from my mother and in later years she told me she purposefully didn't say such things (she said they wouldn't say such things so we would never feel we had disappointed them). I have higher standards than many people, but I think I got them by watching my folks rather than anything they said. He has one stuffed animal I wouldn't take away. It is his baby, and I'm not out to crush him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 where you are trying to find a punishment that is harsh enough that he can no longer keep up the "front" and crumbles. That's a battle that as Mom you can win if you are willing to do what it takes and if seeing him repentant and upset is that important to you. To me, that seems like an unwise response. I would just tell him that when he's confined to his room, he's not to be yelling things out, and if he does, the times starts again. But I wouldn't respond at all to the fact that he was denying feeling punished or was smiling. Who cares? He misbehaved in mild way and you punished in a mild way. Why turn it into a major misery? You say he's almost never punished for misbehavior. Sounds like a good thing. I have two like that and I want to KEEP them like that. I also have one not like that, lol. I would probably wait until it's all blown over and look for an opportunity to talk him (when a relevant story come up in your home or community or in the news) about pride. It sounds like he is prideful, but for some kids, that keeps them from getting in trouble - they would rather comply that have an "authority/subordinate " type confrontation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I think sometimes we believe that punishment/consequences/discipline will prevent children from doing the same thing. In all honesty? I think punishnment/consequences/discipline is often what adults do to kids while the kids grow out of that developmental stage. Try to think of your imposed consequences as communicating "I don't approve of that behavior" instead of something to *make* him behave differently. The truth is he WILL eventually-sooner or later stop that behavior: he's designed to grow and mature. Discipline doesn't have to feel bad in order to "work". It he's dug in his heels to say "It doesn't hurt" and you want to push back, the only strategy is to seek something that hurts "more". That is usually a counter productive behavior. Instead, if he is supposed to do something - nothing else happens until that thing is done. If he is supposed to stop doing something, all other activities, attentions, plans, etc are suspended until he obeys. Take arbitrary, unrelated punishment out of the picture and you'll be less frustrated by his response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 I just remembered something he did this morning. He loves his marbles (or seems to). He has a habit of leaving them out, and marbles go everywhere. I have warned him that they could cause even a grown up to slip and fall and grown ups aren't designed to slip and fall. I told him if I found one on the loose, I was just going to chuck it (this is after a few weeks of finding the box, putting it away, etc). He doesn't mind this. Weeks pass, and I warn him the next time they would be taken away for some weeks. Today they are all out in a place where someone could step on them. He dawdles about picking them up. I remind him they are going to be put away. He now hurries up, asks where they are going to be put away, but before I can answer, he comes up with a very high spot to put them, puts them there, and then tells me that it is time for his step stool to be given to Goodwill (we had discussed how he never uses it any more), just to make sure he won't "get into them". All chipper. I left it at that, but not having any marbles to leave out is not the same as not leaving one's marbles out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 I would be fearful, but might be able to overcome it, of using "I know that's not the kind of child you are" type statements. I never heard anything "loaded" like that from my mother and in later years she told me she purposefully didn't say such things (she said they wouldn't say such things so we would never feel we had disappointed them). I have higher standards than many people, but I think I got them by watching my folks rather than anything they said. My thought process behind using the "I know you're not like that" is to help the child see himself as being of good character and above that type of behavior. Ultimately they need to behave for their own conscience and not out of a fear or disappointing others or getting into trouble. I don't see it as much different than saying, "I love how you're so patient with your baby brother" or the cliche, "you can be anything if you put your mind to it!" I'm just trying to build confidence. :001_smile: (My parents did build me up as being a strong, smart, capable person and I think that enabled me to resist a LOT of peer pressure. I'm sure it helped that my parents were very clear about being rule-followers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 It almost sounds like he is a little anxious about messing up again. Is he hard on himself? Do you think maybe he is trying to convince himself that these things don't matter because really, they do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 He just loves to play. Can't seem to resist, and hums a happy tune through punishment. Listens closely to correction, agrees to be better, and doesn't follow through. Like he is too happy-go-lucky. (He has stubborn happy-go-lucky ancestors!) You will have great stories to tell when he is all grown up. I know right now it's perplexing but when it's all behind you, it will sound awfully cute that he just couldn't let a punishment dampen his happy mood. :) I have a 21 month old who gets into moods where he pinches, slaps and bites with a giddy smile. He's not angry, if anything he's extra-happy. Time-out is all I can think of to do, but it doesn't bother him in the least. I just told someone that he's going to get pulled over as an adult and say, "Hi Officer! I like your shirt! Are you having a nice day today?" and flash his big dimples and get off the hook. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 It almost sounds like he is a little anxious about messing up again. Is he hard on himself? Do you think maybe he is trying to convince himself that these things don't matter because really, they do? I wondered that as well. Do you think he is trying to harden his heart to protect himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Read "Pierre"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 I wondered that as well. Do you think he is trying to harden his heart to protect himself? Yes. I never got the idea he was doing it "get my goat". I'm perplexed because I am unfamiliar with this. I never lost my marbles because it never crossed my mind to leave them out. I was at the tail end of a lot of sibs and I just followed suit: I behaved as my brothers, who were all much older, behaved. How my mother got the first in line to behave, I don't know. I suspect I would have lost my marbles had I left them in a walkway, but I never had a toy taken away, as I never left them about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Kay - I've tried many of the things you've tried, taking away the toy for a period of time, getting rid of the toy, yelling, time-outs. . . I think that for a youngster your kiddo's age - getting rid of the toy is too harsh. At least that is my what I think now - many years after the fact. I think I would have a consequence - perhaps a toy "jail" or "time-out" where the toy goes (like a box) for a week. Then when he gets back the toy, talk about how to take care of it. If he dawdles and likes to play games, make it a game to see how fast he can put it away in the right spot. Or make it a race - I can put away my stuff before you do! Or time him with a stopwatch. In other words, make doing the right thing more fun than doing the wrong thing. As far as handling his emotions go, I would sit down and cuddle a la Laura Corin. I'd say something like "You know, it is ok to feel badly about losing your toy for awhile. . . . or losing your computer time. . . But you know that you will have another chance to do things the right way." I would not try to make him "feel" sad or remorseful though - or to show it. I would however require him to say something along the lines of admitting what got him in trouble - just so that he learns that a "man" takes responsibility for what he's done. (a real "woman" does so too!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 I have a daughter like that and I switched to positive discipline and natural consequences. After all, the point isn't really to make my kid feel miserable, it's to make them aware of their actions and to have them think it over. The marbles for instance, I wouldn't really do much explaining. I'd just say, . "Marbles on the floor are dangerous to people walking on the floor." Since keeping the house safe is your duty just clean them up and put them up somewhere. If he asks, explain that they can't come down until he has a plan to use them safely. He may come back and say, "I'll clean them up after." Give them back and if he doesn't clean them up then they disappear again and that plan isn't acceptable anymore. I'd never make loosing the marbles part of the deal at all. He just looses them everytime they're a hazard and can't have them back until he has a plan of action to deal with them when he's done. Is the point to make him feel bad about what he's done or to make him think about what he's done because if it's the latter then feeling bad isn't something he needs to do. If you give him natural consequences and make him think ahead you're helping him learn how to really deal with his problems. A great book on this is Barbara Coloroso's Kids Are Worth It! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Perhaps I'd try Laura's a couple of times, and then see if I needed to move to a "corrective/punitive" way... Carrie:-) It takes a while to settle into the different style. Good luck! Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Read "Pierre"? Great book. We like the Carole King song too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 ( I'm sure others have faced this. What did you do? Well, the long time-out so I could work on a game plan with hubby "cured" this. He has lapsed back into a helpful, lovely boy, after a few weeks of being "trying", no matter how often I pointed out the problem with X or Y or Z. This is the second time this summer than when I finally got very stern and hacked off, actually, that he has immediately straightened up and flew right. (The other was over math of all things.) What a puzzle. It is one of the few things that makes me regret my mother isn't alive. Oh, well, the adventure continues. Now his new thing, as he is learning to "carry over" in column addition, is to erase the numbers he carries over. It is our secret. He claims only he and I know it, in all the universe. (Shhhhh!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in Monterey Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Have you tried tomato staking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) I just can't see Jesus doing that (as per your signature). If it is something you can't see, then I would suggest you, personally, should not follow this route. As I understand, it is totally possible to be out of fellowship with God. IF her son is being purposefully defiant (an opposed to nervous or anxious and unsure) then his disobedience causes a separation, and would therefore be out of fellowship. Via repentance, he could return. I have found, particularly with my children who are truly old enough to understand a relationship with Jesus, that it is important to understand He loves us unconditionally, but we can Choose to walk out of fellowship with Him, so I can totally see the Lord doing this. It has been a real life example to my sons (12 and 13) and encouraged them to remain in fellowship with our family and to improve their relationships with dh and I, as well as the Lord by gaining a deeper understanding of fellowship, accountability, and personal responsibility. YMMV. Edited September 25, 2009 by johnandtinagilbert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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