s/o this just sends my mind spinning - minors charged as adults

[lionfamily1999]

The 14 yo boy was oldest of four boys, ages 9+, who molested a young girl. He's being charged as an adult, the other three are charged as juveniles.

 

Is he an adult and should he stand trial as one? What are the benefits (or consequences according to your pov) of him being charged and punished as an adult, for society, for justice, etc?

 

 

 

IMO, he's still a child. Treating him and charging him as an adult are only going to mess up his head worse than it's already, obviously, messed up. The treatment he can expect in jail/prison are only going to make him more of a monster and any hope of reclaiming him for the good of himself and society will be nil if he is forced to serve time as an adult. This is, imo, the epitome of how our justice system fails.

[Dirtroad]

It is very possible that he was the primary perp... or was the most aggressive, assertive. It may not all be about age... it may be correlated to planning & course of actions taken. They are children of immigrants from Liberia and there are some serious cultural issues in this rape also.

 

I have seen 14 year olds that would terrify you. One was so cold & indifferent (to anyone) that he made me nervous... then at 16, he killed a 12 year old with a baseball bat & shot his father with a shotgun (up close). He was from a middle class family, divorced parents, and siblings who were not having any difficulties in community, school or family.

 

I think there are some young teens that are are very dangerous & must not be handled with boot camps or detention. I think we may be at a point in society to develop a bridge... a system between adult prison & juvy. I think some parents need to go to jail also in many juvy cases.... and I wish smaller crimes were handled more abrubtly & more aggressively before the developing criminal learns more, escalates the level of crime, and learns to manipulate the system.

 

This being said... I haven't head enough about these boys to know exactly why he is being treated differently, but I bet it has more to do with the case than just that he was oldest.

 

My heart does not go out to him though (he is not a victim in this case)... it goes out to the girl. Her own father said it was her fault (cultural, woman is never victim of rape) and he doesn't want her back in his house. HEART BREAKING for an 8 year old.

[Aggie]

If he's charged as a juvenile, he record remains sealed and no one else knows that he's a threat to their little girl.

 

Adult crime, adult consequences, imo.

[lionfamily1999]

My heart does not go out to him though (he is not a victim in this case)... it goes out to the girl. Her own father said it was her fault (cultural, woman is never victim of rape) and he doesn't want her back in his house. HEART BREAKING for an 8 year old.

Imo, treating him as an adult would be making a victim of him. So many times the oldest person involved gets the heaviest charges, especially where juveniles are involved. It would not surprise me in the least if it was his age, as the oldest, that got him this charge.

If he's charged as a juvenile, he record remains sealed and no one else knows that he's a threat to their little girl.

 

Adult crime, adult consequences, imo.

So, b&e, drug use, etc., all should be charged as adults?

[Cricket]

The 14 yo boy was oldest of four boys, ages 9+, who molested a young girl. He's being charged as an adult, the other three are charged as juveniles.

 

Is he an adult and should he stand trial as one? What are the benefits (or consequences according to your pov) of him being charged and punished as an adult, for society, for justice, etc?

 

 

 

IMO, he's still a child. Treating him and charging him as an adult are only going to mess up his head worse than it's already, obviously, messed up. The treatment he can expect in jail/prison are only going to make him more of a monster and any hope of reclaiming him for the good of himself and society will be nil if he is forced to serve time as an adult. This is, imo, the epitome of how our justice system fails.

 

Um, they didn't molest an 8 yo girl. They raped her. Molestation seems too tame a word for what happened to that poor child. Any 14 yo who has committed such a vile and premeditated crime will most likely never be rehabilitated imo. CPS has taken the girl into their care because the parents believe that rape is the victims fault and rape brings shame to the entire family. It such a horrible, horrible case.

[lionfamily1999]

Um, they didn't molest an 8 yo girl. They raped her. Molestation seems too tame a word for what happened to that poor child. Any 14 yo who has committed such a vile and premeditated crime will most likely never be rehabilitated imo. CPS has taken the girl into their care because the parents believe that rape is the victims fault and rape brings shame to the entire family. It such a horrible, horrible case.

I thought they were charged with molesting her? I was wondering about the difference between the charges and the terms used in the article.

 

It is a horrible case.

 

You don't believe he could be "fixed" so to speak?

[mommaduck]

Sorry, but 14yrs old is not a "child" in this type of case.

[freeindeed]

He should absolutely be charged as an adult. His records should NOT be sealed. I have an 8 yo daughter, and this terrifies and sickens me. This young man is a threat to others, and his crime should be public knowledge so that other parents can protect their children.

[PineFarmMom]

Sorry, but 14yrs old is not a "child" in this type of case.

 

I agree! And if that is my little girl, I'm going to want that 14yo to be charged as an adult because he took an adult action.

[lionfamily1999]

Sorry, but 14yrs old is not a "child" in this type of case.

I'm trying to figure out why he's not a child, then. What are the benefits or reasons behind him not being considered a child.

 

DD is 12 and, imo, she's very much a child. She's a child that's getting ready to enter the whirl wind of change from child to adult. I think of this kid, in the middle of this whirl-wind of change and I wonder, IS he really an adult? Does he grasp the full signifigance of what he has done and is he emotionally and mentally mature enough for us to place an adult yard stick next to him?

 

Someone convince me, please, because all I see here is a kid that's looking at a future of rape in jail, followed by a couple of steps into public just to wind back up in jail, the only world he would've known his whole adult life.

 

IOW, I just want to understand. :(

[emeraldjoy]

In a situation such as this the best possible result would be some form of effective rehabiliation. More than likely, due to his age, he will be let back out into greater society at some point in time. My question is, would treating him as an adult lead to a better chance of rehabilitation? I personally think not.

e

[Cricket]

I thought they were charged with molesting her? I was wondering about the difference between the charges and the terms used in the article.

 

It is a horrible case.

 

You don't believe he could be "fixed" so to speak?

 

No, they are not being charged with molesting her. They are being charged with sexual assault and kidnapping. This wasn't a game of "doctor" that got out of hand. They lured her into a shed and took turns holding her down and raping her. Apart from the grace of God, no I don't think psychotherapy will fix the 14 yo. 14 is old enough to understand what he was doing was wrong. It terrifies me that there are children out there capable of such evil. I have a 5 yo dd who has had 9 and 10 yo boys try to kiss her. I know a 9 yo boy who knows all about sex because his older brother shows him porn on the internet. And the adults in charge of these kids treat it like it is not a big deal. They talk about sex in terms you would use to talk about animals mating. No mention of morality or the beauty of sex. I think these boys are damaged. Maybe they could get help before but once they start to act out on it, it's most likely too late. Yes, it is sad and certainly someone can try therapy with them but to seal all records as if the crime never happened is wrong.

[Impish]

I knew a family that had a 14 yo predator for a son. When I met the mom, he was already in a treatment facility for youth. He had systematically raped two of his sisters, his brother, and other neighbourhood kids. In fact, they weren't sure just how many victims he had.

 

Because he was charged as a youth, he'll have no record. He could work with kids, marry, etc...and nobody has a clue as to his past. He was deemed as a sociopath amongst other labels, and the treatment centre acknowledged that he would reoffend when released, but nothing could be done to keep him longer.

 

That case is one of the many reasons that I believe some youths SHOULD be tried as adults. A 14 yo sexual predator SHOULD be tried as an adult. As should a murderer.

 

This idea that just because they're chronologically a child they are capable of any degree of innocence or rehab is just wrong imo. You can't rehab someone without a conscience. You just can't. All you will do is train them to hide better. This predator I'm talking about told a counsellor at rehab that killing his victims would have made sure he wasn't caught, since none of them would have ratted him out.

 

I wouldn't doubt that's exactly what he will do, given the chance.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Does a juvenile's punishment/treatment/supervision/probation end at age 18? If so, 4 years may not be enough time and that may be one of the reasons for the adult charge.

[swimmermom3]

I am not sure how the young man should be charged. However, I have a question. What would the standard be in the young man's country? It is my understanding that Liberia has had a law against rape for only 3 years. I know that I am looking at this case through American eyes only. I don't know how long the young man has been here, nor what his understanding of our laws is.

If he grew up in a culture that tolerates rape and where the girl is seen as the instigator, can we charge him as an adult?

 

I am in no way condoning his action, nor the action of the girl's parents. However, their reaction is based on 100s of years of cultural practice, no?

[mommaduck]

I'm trying to figure out why he's not a child, then. What are the benefits or reasons behind him not being considered a child.

 

DD is 12 and, imo, she's very much a child. She's a child that's getting ready to enter the whirl wind of change from child to adult. I think of this kid, in the middle of this whirl-wind of change and I wonder, IS he really an adult? Does he grasp the full signifigance of what he has done and is he emotionally and mentally mature enough for us to place an adult yard stick next to him?

 

Someone convince me, please, because all I see here is a kid that's looking at a future of rape in jail, followed by a couple of steps into public just to wind back up in jail, the only world he would've known his whole adult life.

 

IOW, I just want to understand. :(

 

When I was 14, I can guarantee you that if the boys in my class had done something like this, it would have been with full understanding of what they were doing. They aren't little boys playing doctor. No, it was full on violence committed against a child half their age.

[Karen sn]

I don't have advice on how to fix the problem, but it was a very adult crime.

Sexual assault on a child?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I get that he has probably witnessed it himself at a young age, it's the culture he's from, and blah blah blah......

 

I think sexual assault is a little more than juvenile petty theft of bubble gum.

Honestly, if were in a "juvi" holding facility i would worry about the other detainees!

 

Not that I believe adult jail will help the situation either.

ETA - I believe it SHOULD be on his record!

Edited July 24, 2009 by Karen sn

[Cricket]

I am not sure how the young man should be charged. However, I have a question. What would the standard be in the young man's country? It is my understanding that Liberia has had a law against rape for only 3 years. I know that I am looking at this case through American eyes only. I don't know how long the young man has been here, nor what his understanding of our laws is.

If he grew up in a culture that tolerates rape and where the girl is seen as the instigator, can we charge him as an adult?

 

I am in no way condoning his action, nor the action of the girl's parents. However, their reaction is based on 100s of years of cultural practice, no?

 

It was my understanding that the victim was from Liberia. I haven't heard if the perpetrators were from that country or grew up in America.

[Impish]

Just another thought. Would you want your daughter dating/marrying someone that had s*xually assaulted a child while they were a teen? Or working as a child leader, daycare worker, camp counsellor, cub scout leader?

 

Charging as a youth means that is all possible, since records are sealed. Charging as an adult means that they will be recognized as a s*xual offender when released from jail.

[BillieBoy]

Julie,

You're just a sweet momma at heart; you try to find the good in everyone especially children. :001_smile: In this case though I'd have to agree that this was such a horrific crime that we should place our sympathies on the child that was victimized. I agree that the perps. will now be at the mercy of the courts and may well become it's victims but they made that choice, even if they did not fully understand the consequences. At any age, in any race, in any religion, or in any judicial system, aggravated gang rape and kidnapping is not okay.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Impish, I can understand that (and several other arguments). Don't you feel the same about the 13yo though? What of the younger two?

 

I just can't see this AT ALL. My 14 yo....he's just so innocent still. He wouldn't hurt a fly, thankfully!

[Orthodox6]

I just watched a segment on CNN. The announcer interviewed both the Liberian Ambassador to the United States, and the President of Liberia (some of the interview included both dignitaries simultaneously).

 

The President of Liberia emphatically supported the United States right to pursue this case under the laws of the U.S. She underscored that r*pe is an old cultural problem in Liberia, and has been used (often) as a "weapon" during wars. The laws in Liberia now punish r*pe severely. One charged with this crime is not even allowed bail. She urged the Liberian community in the U.S. (both refugee and resident) to understand that r*pe is NOT allowed in Liberia any more, and to root out the mindset that it is allowed.

 

Most importantly, the President of Liberia came down hard on the parents and relatives of the victim. Evidently, Liberian ingrained culture is AUTOMATICALLY to blame the girl/woman. No matter what the circumstances, she is considered the one to blame. The parents have ejected this very young, physically and spiritually traumatized, INNOCENT little girl because they say she is the one at fault. I think the child is with relatives now, but I did not clearly follow the segment. The President of Liberia underscored that this is wrong, wrong, wrong of the parents !

 

That's all I know for now. I'm glad that I randomly turned on the television and saw the segment.

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

If you believe the 14 year old should be charged as an adult, then would you also support "across the board" adult charges for certain crimes?

 

Seriously, I also don't think that "children" who sexually assault or children who kill should have their records sealed for no one to ever know "who" they really are . . . but I have problems with the "picking and choosing" of who will be charged as an adult and who will be charged as a child.

 

In my area, at least, it always seems as if underprivileged youths with court-ordered attorneys seem to get charged as adults while youths from wealthier families manage to get charged as juveniles and their records sealed.

 

I'm just in favor of one standard, not such a variable one that seems to be in play now. If sexual assault means you are charged as an adult, then it should always be so.

 

Of course, I think I may have just gone off topic. I'm not necessarily reflecting on this particular case, just the way the judiciary system in general seems to be handled around here. *SIGH*

[Dirtroad]

It was my understanding that the victim was from Liberia. I haven't heard if the perpetrators were from that country or grew up in America.

 

I read that all were from Liberian families... not sure if born here or there but seems the community is made up of famlies from Liberia.

 

That is something also to consider. The culture rules are different from the US rules... but if they want to live here.... follow the US rules. This is something that worries people about not encouraging immigrants to assimilate more quickly (or at all). It is beautiful to respect your heritage & enjoy much of its beauty... but to live in a new country & enjoy that life... you must embrace the rules, laws, and culture of the new country.

 

The FATHER of the girl obviously doesn't. I wonder about the boys.

 

This poor girl.... NOT ONLY was she raped by 4 boys.... I read that she could be heard screaming and when police arrived, boys scattered. WHERE were the adults? Who called the cops & didn't stop this?

 

These little criminals also LURED her into the shed. It was NO accident or they just jumped on impulse... they LURED her & HELD her down.

[lionfamily1999]

In a situation such as this the best possible result would be some form of effective rehabiliation. More than likely, due to his age, he will be let back out into greater society at some point in time. My question is, would treating him as an adult lead to a better chance of rehabilitation? I personally think not.

e

That's where I'm at. I just don't see how treating him like an adult would be effective in punishing him, getting him to see what he did was wrong, or protecting society. IOW, he's not going to get "better" in jail, he's going to learn that the law is unfair (whether or not that is a correct assesment), he's going to learn that men are animals (or further affirm that belief) and eventually, yes, he's going to get out and when he does, imo, he'll be worlds worse than he was going in.

No, they are not being charged with molesting her. They are being charged with sexual assault and kidnapping. This wasn't a game of "doctor" that got out of hand. They lured her into a shed and took turns holding her down and raping her. Apart from the grace of God, no I don't think psychotherapy will fix the 14 yo. 14 is old enough to understand what he was doing was wrong. It terrifies me that there are children out there capable of such evil. I have a 5 yo dd who has had 9 and 10 yo boys try to kiss her. I know a 9 yo boy who knows all about sex because his older brother shows him porn on the internet. And the adults in charge of these kids treat it like it is not a big deal. They talk about sex in terms you would use to talk about animals mating. No mention of morality or the beauty of sex. I think these boys are damaged. Maybe they could get help before but once they start to act out on it, it's most likely too late. Yes, it is sad and certainly someone can try therapy with them but to seal all records as if the crime never happened is wrong.

I can't see how time in jail is going to change his views on sex to the better. I can see how it would make him much much worse.

 

I was not trying to imply what they did was an accident or anything less than horrific. I just wonder if tagging him as an adult is right or just.

I knew a family that had a 14 yo predator for a son. When I met the mom, he was already in a treatment facility for youth. He had systematically raped two of his sisters, his brother, and other neighbourhood kids. In fact, they weren't sure just how many victims he had.

 

Because he was charged as a youth, he'll have no record. He could work with kids, marry, etc...and nobody has a clue as to his past. He was deemed as a sociopath amongst other labels, and the treatment centre acknowledged that he would reoffend when released, but nothing could be done to keep him longer.

 

That case is one of the many reasons that I believe some youths SHOULD be tried as adults. A 14 yo sexual predator SHOULD be tried as an adult. As should a murderer.

 

This idea that just because they're chronologically a child they are capable of any degree of innocence or rehab is just wrong imo. You can't rehab someone without a conscience. You just can't. All you will do is train them to hide better. This predator I'm talking about told a counsellor at rehab that killing his victims would have made sure he wasn't caught, since none of them would have ratted him out.

 

I wouldn't doubt that's exactly what he will do, given the chance.

 

I can understand in the case of a repeat offender, but I wonder that we don't sentence them to life in a mental hospital, instead of in jail (where there's chances for parole).

 

The sealing of the records... well, I'm wishy washy on that. Most people do change when they 'come of age' and not allowing their past to follow them is a good thing. I think people change more in the years between birth and 23 than they ever will for the rest of their lives. Heck, most kids change more in one year between birth and 23 than they do for the sum of their years after 23. I know the sealing is supposed to allow children to be adults, without the discrepancies of youth hounding them, but I do wonder with sexual predators if that is the best thing, or if there could be some way of differentiating.

I am not sure how the young man should be charged. However, I have a question. What would the standard be in the young man's country? It is my understanding that Liberia has had a law against rape for only 3 years. I know that I am looking at this case through American eyes only. I don't know how long the young man has been here, nor what his understanding of our laws is.

If he grew up in a culture that tolerates rape and where the girl is seen as the instigator, can we charge him as an adult?

 

I am in no way condoning his action, nor the action of the girl's parents. However, their reaction is based on 100s of years of cultural practice, no?

I'm confused about that too. I thought it was only the girl's family that was from Liberia.

 

I will say, in the great USA we don't allow ignorance to get you out of trouble. It doesn't matter if you didn't know something was illegal, you can still be charged.

Just another thought. Would you want your daughter dating/marrying someone that had s*xually assaulted a child while they were a teen? Or working as a child leader, daycare worker, camp counsellor, cub scout leader?

 

Charging as a youth means that is all possible, since records are sealed. Charging as an adult means that they will be recognized as a s*xual offender when released from jail.

 

That's a hard question Impish. If this is someone that had completely changed then I'm not sure I could be against it. I knew people that were very very confused teens and they are really torn up about the things they did. They've begged forgiveness and some of their victims carry less of a grudge against them than they do themselves. I know people can change, but I also know that it's hard to change if you're carrying a sandwich board saying everything you had done wrong.

Julie,

You're just a sweet momma at heart; you try to find the good in everyone especially children. :001_smile: In this case though I'd have to agree that this was such a horrific crime that we should place our sympathies on the child that was victimized. I agree that the perps. will now be at the mercy of the courts and may well become it's victims but they made that choice, even if they did not fully understand the consequences. At any age, in any race, in any religion, or in any judicial system, aggravated gang rape and kidnapping is not okay.

From an outsider perspective, seeing the communities where sex is treated like changing your sheets (you're wierd if you DON'T do it and often), I wonder if the damage done BY these communities can be undone at any point. I don't want to contribute to the loss of these kids and their youth, not if they can be reclaimed.

 

It pains me that they are paying for the lessons that their society has layed out for them. It grieves me that this little girl was the victim of this society and these boys. As a mother, I want to rend them limb from limb for having done such a repugnant act, for having hurt her in such a deeply wounding way. As a mother, I want to make them pay, pay PAY for what they have done.

 

As a mother, I also worry that we are laying crimes at their feet that they do nto understand. I worry that we will met out a punishment that will far excede the crime. I worry that justice will not be done, but rather further injustice.

 

You are right, gang rape, any kind of rape, is wrong. I'm just not sure that putting him in prison will right it.

[TravelingChris]

I have a graduate degree in criminal justice and did all my coursework for a Phd in it too. Sex criminals are notoriously recidivists. When I was studying, there was I believe one program in the country that had some success with rehabilitation but I think the courts later stopped one of the main aspects which was high levels of supervision even after all parts of sentence was served. So do I think that given the current state of knowledge, law, and actual programs that it is safe to charge rapists as juvenile- not on your life. Actually murderers who had no sexual component to their crimes are usually the least recidivistic.

[Orthodox6]

As I posted above, all people in this horror are Liberian refugees. The 14-year old came to the U.S. in 2005.

 

What those boys did seems a direct continuation of the ghastly culture in which they were raised. Who can know what atrocities they witnessed (or endured) themselves back in Liberia ?

 

Nonetheless, one cannot "excuse" the boys on that basis. Time for them to learn a lesson, and to learn it well, and permanently.

 

I just browsed news sources on the Internet, and the parents absolutely blame the girl for "bringing shame on their family". Child Protective Services has the poor girl in their custody.

 

I can't field the "adult versus minor" question. I suspect that all four knew exactly what they were doing. I think (but shall not commit, because this is so far from my knowledge base) that I support trial as an adult ONLY if the juvenile is incarcerated far, far away from adult prisoners.

[Impish]

Sorry, but I have no sympathy, empathy, or soft feelings towards this rapist. None.

 

The victim will live with the scars. Physically, and emotionally. Being gang raped at her age will certainly leave physical scars, and may indeed render her unable to have children...if she's ever able to sustain an adult relationship at all that is. I know the victims of the rapist I mentioned earlier, two of the girls they were in serious doubt if they'd ever be able to bear children, due to the scarring and damage done to them.

 

Fourteen, twelve...both ages where they freakin know better. The idea that they're just 'children' doesn't wash at all for me. That they're from another culture really doesn't matter at all to me. I hate that this is even a discussion, really. We've spent more time debating if the 14 yo should be tried as an adult than grieving for the horrible acts done to an eight year old.

 

Somehow, that's how it is in North America. We can remember the names of the criminals, not the victims, typically speaking. People know who Ted Bundy is. Can they name all his victims? Not many (including myself) can.

 

There needs to be a switch, where the criminal's name is forgotten, but the victim's are not. To me, its like they've been murdered again...that the criminal is remembered long after them.

[lionfamily1999]

I'm sorry Impish.

 

I just wanted to be able to see the other side and reevaluate my feelings on this.

[Impish]

I'm sorry Impish.

 

I just wanted to be able to see the other side and reevaluate my feelings on this.

No apology needed! I'm saying its an example of what happens in North American society. We tend to focus on the criminal, rather than the victim. Its almost like, "Well, the victim is already done, what can we do to rehab the criminal" so we toss the victim to the side. It needs to be the other way 'round imo.

[Kathy in MD]

I'm trying to figure out why he's not a child, then. What are the benefits or reasons behind him not being considered a child.

 

DD is 12 and, imo, she's very much a child. She's a child that's getting ready to enter the whirl wind of change from child to adult. I think of this kid, in the middle of this whirl-wind of change and I wonder, IS he really an adult? Does he grasp the full signifigance of what he has done and is he emotionally and mentally mature enough for us to place an adult yard stick next to him?

 

Someone convince me, please, because all I see here is a kid that's looking at a future of rape in jail, followed by a couple of steps into public just to wind back up in jail, the only world he would've known his whole adult life.

 

IOW, I just want to understand. :(

 

I need convicing too. I can see sometimes it may be called for, but not always.

 

But I can make a guess. And that's that DA is wanting to send a big time message to the relatives that raised the boys and the parents of the the girl. Unfortunately he can't charge them, so the oldest boy gets the book thrown at him.

[lionfamily1999]

No apology needed! I'm saying its an example of what happens in North American society. We tend to focus on the criminal, rather than the victim. Its almost like, "Well, the victim is already done, what can we do to rehab the criminal" so we toss the victim to the side. It needs to be the other way 'round imo.

In this case, it's because I'm concerned that our criminal justice system has become too much revenge and not enough actual consideration. I also wonder what the point is? Nothing will make what happened to that poor girl any less horrible. We could castrate these kids, mount the goodies and hang them next to Justice and she will still have to suffer through the trauma all the same.

 

I worry, Impish, that we move too far from the ultimate purpose of the justice system. I worry that my view of the goals of the justice system are horribly askew. I also worry that I am blinded by my own opinions on Christianity, in that... if we only save one person, it's all worth it. With so many people crying vengeance, I worry that I am on the wrong side.

I need convicing too. I can see sometimes it may be called for, but not always.

 

But I can make a guess. And that's that DA is wanting to send a big time message to the relatives that raised the boys and the parents of the the girl. Unfortunately he can't charge them, so the oldest boy gets the book thrown at him.

That and what a pp pointed out, that it's not being handed out regardless of social status, gives me pause. Who are we trying to punish? Should we punish someone to make a point? If so, how do we choose those lucky ducks? Is it only the ones that can't afford to demand justice?

[Laurie4b]

The 14 yo boy was oldest of four boys, ages 9+, who molested a young girl. He's being charged as an adult, the other three are charged as juveniles.

 

Is he an adult and should he stand trial as one? What are the benefits (or consequences according to your pov) of him being charged and punished as an adult, for society, for justice, etc?

 

 

 

IMO, he's still a child. Treating him and charging him as an adult are only going to mess up his head worse than it's already, obviously, messed up. The treatment he can expect in jail/prison are only going to make him more of a monster and any hope of reclaiming him for the good of himself and society will be nil if he is forced to serve time as an adult. This is, imo, the epitome of how our justice system fails.

 

I think this is a complex issue.

 

In general, I don't agree with charging minors as adults. However, with some types of offenses (egregious sexual assault like this being one of them), or with frequent offenders, I don't believe it's right to seal the records because the perps remain a danger to the community.

 

Again, though in general I don't agree with charging minors as adults, I have also in my past line of work in children's mental health, met teens who were already so hard they were past rehab from the human point of view. What makes this tricky is that it is not about age, per se; it's about hardness. That may be more subjective to measure, though with some, you know it when you see it for sure.

 

I would prefer that we develop some type of hybrid system in which all juveniles were charged as juveniles, but could be moved into the adult system for crimes such as this in the case of that hardened profile. Whether to hold them over would be cause for a new hearing and would take into account evaluations, etc. done while in detention as juveniles.

 

 

I do think that in the case of brutal rape such as this, it's unlikely that the young man can be rehabilitated. The only caveat to that is the extent to which he was doing that out of a cultural belief system that could, in fact, be changed. In other words, a kid that grew up in the typical US culture and did that--probably no hope even at 14. A kid that did it thinking it was within acceptable limits or to prove machismo or whatever, if taken out of the culture, might change. In the first case, it's a matter of hardness; in the second case, it could be hardness or it could be nasty enculturation. Enculturation can be changed.

[lionfamily1999]

I would prefer that we develop some type of hybrid system in which all juveniles were charged as juveniles, but could be moved into the adult system for crimes such as this in the case of that hardened profile. Whether to hold them over would be cause for a new hearing and would take into account evaluations, etc. done while in detention as juveniles.

 

:iagree:

[5knights3maidens]

Sorry, but I have no sympathy, empathy, or soft feelings towards this rapist. None.

 

The victim will live with the scars. Physically, and emotionally. Being gang raped at her age will certainly leave physical scars, and may indeed render her unable to have children...if she's ever able to sustain an adult relationship at all that is. I know the victims of the rapist I mentioned earlier, two of the girls they were in serious doubt if they'd ever be able to bear children, due to the scarring and damage done to them.

 

Fourteen, twelve...both ages where they freakin know better. The idea that they're just 'children' doesn't wash at all for me. That they're from another culture really doesn't matter at all to me. I hate that this is even a discussion, really. We've spent more time debating if the 14 yo should be tried as an adult than grieving for the horrible acts done to an eight year old.

 

Somehow, that's how it is in North America. We can remember the names of the criminals, not the victims, typically speaking. People know who Ted Bundy is. Can they name all his victims? Not many (including myself) can.

 

There needs to be a switch, where the criminal's name is forgotten, but the victim's are not. To me, its like they've been murdered again...that the criminal is remembered long after them.

 

:iagree:

Also, If it were my boys, they would have to pay for their crime even if it were to be tried as an adult. It would absolutely kill me. BUT, It has destroyed an 8 year old little girl and they must pay for their actions.

.

[HSmomNY]

I have worked in both adult prisons and Juvenile detention centers. I am sorry to say but I saw little in either would 'help' this young man.

If he is in a juvenile center he would be released when he turns 18 with no recored. If he is in prison he will serve a much longer sentence and leave with a recored.

My interest is less in changing him then in protecting society. IMHO adult prison provides more protection for society.

And no, I don't feel sorry for him, even knowing what kind of h*ll he has waiting for him in prison.

 

:angry:

[swimmermom3]

It was my understanding that the victim was from Liberia. I haven't heard if the perpetrators were from that country or grew up in America.

 

Thanks Christy. I thought I had read that they all were from Liberia. If he was raised here, I would have to say to charge him as an adult. I do wish that all violent crimes committed by juveniles stayed on their record permanently.

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.craiggillespie.com/juvenile-cases.html#juv4 Read the area where it lists when and how the 14 year old can be charged as an adult. This punk was a monster from way back. As a lawyer I can attest that I have met children who were obviously sociopaths . It differs from state to state and the caselaw that has developed recently in many states on the question of when a juvenile can be tried as an adult has leaned toward listing several mitigating factors. Depending on whether those factors are present or not shapes the outcome. Reading this thread it pleases me to see a strong victims advocacy coming through . As a lawyer I do not like the word sexual assault, rape is a far more appropriate word. It makes us cringe to speak it and it aptly describes the near total destructive violence that is done body and soul to the victim. I will be praying for this lovely child and hope a wonderful family will receive her into their home . Unimaginable . FWIW I am about to shock those who "know" me and think I am a yellow dog democrat. For those that are not familiar it means I would rather vote for a dog than a Rep. Generally true. I think if you are an immigrant here having gained legal citizenship under sanctuary ,seeking asylum from religious, ethnic persecution and you commit a violent felony having been granted asylum here that your citizenship should be revoked. There are specific terms used to denote the reason you are seeking citizenship and if you use the legal term asylum and then perpetrate the same violence on others it seems that the very grounds on which you were granted citizenship are a fraud. The victim has become the perpetrator. The very reason that the person was granted citizenship has become moot. Game over. Ok back to my usual board identity as a voice for liberalism.

[Orthodox6]

The 14-yo arrived in the U.S. as a Liberian refugee in 2005. I don't know in what year(s) the other boys, or the girl's family, arrived from there. The president of Liberia says for him to be tried according to the laws of the U.S. That's blunt.

 

T. If he was raised here, I would have to say to charge him as an adult.

[lionfamily1999]

When are Juveniles Transferred to Adult Court?

 

A.R.S. § 13-501 allows for automatic transfer to adult court if the juvenile is 15 to 18 years old and commits first-degree murder, second-degree murder, forcible sexual assault, armed robbery, or any other violent offense. A juvenile who is at least 14 years old and has two prior felony adjudications in juvenile court may be directly transferred to adult court as a “chronic felony offender†if the prosecutor believes it is necessary in order to protect the public.

 

As of May 1, 2007, a new law passed giving juveniles more challenges to the automatic transfer of their cases to adult court. A.R.S. § 13-504 sets forth a number of ways in which a juvenile, who has been transferred automatically to adult court under A.R.S. § 13-501, may successfully have his/her case returned to juvenile court.

 

The main advantage, of course, to having a matter adjudicated in juvenile court, is the nature of punishment. Where the same offense in adult court might expose a juvenile to mandatory prison time, in the juvenile court the focus is much more on rehabilitation. There are very specific, legal guidelines governing the transferring a juvenile case to or from juvenile court. There are currently 10 factors listed in the new law that the judge must consider in determining whether a matter should be handled in the juvenile or adult court.

 

Keeping a case in juvenile court is crucial in instances of violent felony charges or accusations involving sexual misconduct. It is with these types of offenses, a juvenile would be exposed to potentially long prison terms if the matter charged remains in adult court.

 

In other cases where the law does not allow filing directly into adult court but the prosecution believes that the juvenile should be transferred to adult court for criminal prosecution, the state will file a motion with the court to request transfer of the juvenile to adult court at the court’s discretion.

 

A Transfer Hearing may be held 30 days after the date of the Advisory Hearing. If the Motion for Transfer is filed after the Advisory Hearing, the Transfer Hearing may be held 30 days after the filing of the Motion for Transfer.

 

If the court denies or dismisses the Motion for Transfer, the case remains in juvenile court and an Adjudication Hearing for the juvenile may take place 30 days after the date of the order denying or dismissing the motion.

 

It's good to know there are set rules, it all seems so arbitrary when you read about it. That's comforting.

[pqr]

Nothing can be done to rehabilitate this animal!

 

Yes I know all the bleeding hearts will tell us, and absolutely correctly, that he came from a culture where children commit the most unbelievable crimes; torture, rape, murder. Nevertheless this does not change what they are now.

 

In fact in Liberia animals aged 10-14 flay victims and rape daughters and wives in front of their husbands and fathers. In Uganda, mobs of youths as young as 9 have guns and perform atrocities that would make anyone sick. During the terrorist campaign that brought down the government of Rhodesia (and gave us that paragon of civilized behavior, Mugabe) children were forced to murder family members as part of the indoctrination that eventually turned the children into something completely different.

 

Why did I call them animals rather than children? Because they are no longer children, tragically their minds have been so distorted and twisted that I believe that they cannot (in this life) be saved. Look at the cretins who committed this crime. They were taken from Africa, lived in the United States and yet still did what they did. I am not too sure at what age they left Africa and I am not sure if they actually witnessed the horrors of that continent, but again that has no bearing on what they did.

 

Far more important than punishing them (and yes it is important that they be punished) is ensuring that they never come into contact with society again. I do not want them on our streets, in our schools or in the workplace. I do not want them in our prisons but as there are no other alternatives I will have to make do with that.

 

I would charge them as adults, put them away and flush the key. It is only a shame that we will support them for the rest of their natural lives.

Edited July 24, 2009 by pqr

[AuntieM]

My 14yods overtops me by several inches, outweighs me, has football muscles and could definitely do serious harm to anyone if he so chose (fortunately, there's not a mean bone in his body).

 

The effective relationship between him and an 8yo girl would definitely be that of an adult to a child.

 

And as AP has stated, this was no mere molestation, it was a premeditated violent gang rape.

[swimmermom3]

We've spent more time debating if the 14 yo should be tried as an adult than grieving for the horrible acts done to an eight year old.

 

Somehow, that's how it is in North America. We can remember the names of the criminals, not the victims, typically speaking. People know who Ted Bundy is. Can they name all his victims? Not many (including myself) can.

 

There needs to be a switch, where the criminal's name is forgotten, but the victim's are not. To me, its like they've been murdered again...that the criminal is remembered long after them.

 

Impish, thanks for once again using a few strong words to get me to think. You right. The most important thing is the irreparable damage done to that poor girl.

 

I was reading this thread and then had to leave to pick up my son from working at the library. On my way, there was a discussion about a faith healing death of a child. My mind had been swirling with the two cases. As a person, I tend to be very reactive. Through the years I have had to learn to slow myself down and part of that process is to try and see all sides. Sadly, I usually come to the same conclusion, perhaps just a toned down one. Like life in prison is okay vs. "just shoot 'em."

Edited July 24, 2009 by swimmermom3
Spelling

[lionfamily1999]

I only read the first page but I wanted to respond to this :

 

 

 

The benefit to society is that they don't seal his records. He will still go to a juvenile facility until he is either 18 or 21, I don't remember. He will never get to hide the fact that he did this though and that protects other kids, or it helps anyway.

I was under the impression that if you're tried as an adult, your punishment is as if you were an adult, iow, you would go to prison. Would he be put in juvi until he was of age?

 

I can see the unsealed records as a benefit for society.

[lionfamily1999]

Impish, thanks for once again using a few strong words to get me to think. You right. The most important thing is the irreparable damage done to that poor girl.

 

I was reading this thread and then had to leave to pick up my son from working at the library. On my way, there was a discussion about a faith healing death of a child. My mind had been swirling with the two cases. As a person, I rend to be very reactive. Through the years I have had to learn to slow myself down and part of that process is to try and see all sides. Sadly, I usually come to the same conclusion, perhaps just a toned down one. Like life in prison is okay vs. "just shoot 'em."

??? what happened ???

 

 

 

Also, is the damage done to the girl the most important thing? I mean, isn't justice supposed to take precedence (sorry for my spelling) over the victim? The damage is done, but what of justice?

 

 

 

 

 

 

pqr - normally, I agree with you. In this case, I think lowering them to the level of "animals" is just lowering yourself to their level. They aren't animals, imo, they're human beings and humanity should be part of the equation.

[pqr]

??? what happened ???

 

 

pqr - normally, I agree with you. In this case, I think lowering them to the level of "animals" is just lowering yourself to their level. They aren't animals, imo, they're human beings and humanity should be part of the equation.

 

I understand the volatility of my comment, but there are some things that people simply do not do. When you do what they did to an 8 year old girl your humanity is gone, your mind is so warped, so twisted and your actions are so evil that there has to be another term you.

 

Best -pqr

[lionfamily1999]

I understand the volatility of my comment, but there are some things that people simply do not do. When you do what they did to an 8 year old girl your humanity is gone, your mind is so warped, so twisted and your actions are so evil that there has to be another term you.

 

Best -pqr

I see. I worry, though, that when the "good guys" stop recognizing their relation (as a species) to the "bad guys" that the lines between good and bad blur out of sight. I've never heard of a person lowered below human status when it was not for the benefit of evil. Not to call you evil! That came out wrong, but I'm not sure how to fix it and I'm hoping you'll understand what I mean and please don't take it personally.

[pqr]

I see. I worry, though, that when the "good guys" stop recognizing their relation (as a species) to the "bad guys" that the lines between good and bad blur out of sight. I've never heard of a person lowered below human status when it was not for the benefit of evil. Not to call you evil! That came out wrong, but I'm not sure how to fix it and I'm hoping you'll understand what I mean and please don't take it personally.

 

 

I do see your point and do not take it personally.

 

As to "I've never heard of a person lowered below human status when it was not for the benefit of evil" you have a very good point and I will need to ponder it, but I still have trouble granting any degree of humanity to the thing (is that better?) that hurt a little girl.

[lionfamily1999]

At least here they don't put young convicts into the adult prison until they are of age. Even if they were tried as adults they keep them at the juvenile facility until either 18 or 21 - I don't remember which it is.

 

I use to drive by the Medium/High Security Juvenile facility weekly. Our local "school shooter" was tried as an adult but kept in that facility. That is what I am basing the assumption on. Of course it may be a state by state thing.

That's another somewhat comforting fact then.

 

Thank you.

[phathui5]

Like the others have mentioned, part of the benefit to society is that he will have to register as a sex offender and other people will know.