BamaTanya Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Sent dd on an outing with the youth group. A scavenger hunt. An all day outing. She needed some lunch $$$ and to take a swimsuit and sunscreen. The kiddos were divided into groups with different parents taking them here and there after receiving text message hints/directions. When we picked her up, we found out she had been canoeing! I don't know what I had been thinking. Probably that they would wind up at someone's pool. Or a picnic on the beach. She can swim, but she's not a strong swimmer. The other kids had encouraged her to come out with them to a 'deep' part of the lake and a parent had held her hand . . . They did not have life jackets on the canoe . . . I do not consider myself unreasonable. My dc have gone to ps, on field trips, retreats, etc. Sometimes with dh or me chaperoning, but often not. We generally trust the adults in charge to take reasonable precautions with our dc and the others in their care. Like we would do (and have done) as teachers/leaders/chaperons. Isn't canoeing -- any kind -- without a life jacket unwise? Maybe not with your own children who have grown up on a river, but certainly if you're taking a group of teens to an out-of-town lake? I know it is my prerogative and responsibility to make decisions for my dc. I dropped the ball by not finding out exactly where they would end the trip and exactly what the activities would be. If I'd known, dh and I would have rearranged the plans for the other dc and one of us would have gone or dd would not have participated. I don't want to 'blame' the youth leadership, but I'm thinking they must have a different level of risk comfort than I do! What would you think? What would you do? This comes a couple of weeks after the local news reported a 17 yo drowning victim while on a church outing . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheilaZ Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I would think that canoeing without a life vest is extremely dangerous for children. And I live in an area with a lot of water sports. I would be livid if my son had been on that trip. My son's Boy Scout troop just went canoeing. They had to sign up and parents had to sign a permission slip. They all had to pass a swim test before they could even sign up. before they got in the water they had canoeing lessons and were still required to wear life vests. I wouldn't fault you much at all. "Bring a swimsuit and lunch" sounds like a pool or water park. it does not sound like a canoe trip. Your youth group was very fortunate that nothing happened to any of the children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readwithem Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Did they rent the canoes? I would think a permission slip (i.e. signed by you, the parent) would be required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabrett Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I would make sure the youth leader told me (the parent) what the youth were going to do or end up doing on an outing. Surprising the youth is fun, surprising the parent is not acceptable. How old were the youth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 My dd went with her youth group last summer when we were living on an island boating. Everyone wore life jackets. Mind you, this was no a canoe but a power boat so much less likely to tip over. I think this was highly irresponsible. Canoes are very likely to capsize, especially with inexperienced canoeers especially teens. My dd hasn't liked some scavenger hunts but that is because they involved asking people something. Nothing actually dangerous. I would be upset too even if it was one of my kids who are on swim and dive teams and who have been to boating classes and canoeeing and sailing camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTanya Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 Did they rent the canoes? I would think a permission slip (i.e. signed by you, the parent) would be required. I'm not sure. I asked why she didn't have a life jacket and she said they "didn't have any." I asked how much it cost and she said she only paid for lunch -- so this may have been a private place where someone associated with our church has access . . . I would think that any place open to the public would require permission/life vests. That's been my past experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTanya Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 I would make sure the youth leader told me (the parent) what the youth were going to do or end up doing on an outing. Surprising the youth is fun, surprising the parent is not acceptable. How old were the youth? 7th grade through high school -- so mostly minors but an occasional 18 yo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 They did not have life jackets on the canoe . . . What would you think? What would you do? :blink: No life jackets? Okay, I'm in an area where we're surrounded by water. We live on the water, the kids swim as toddlers, but we never, never, never, go out on the water without life vests. Never. Did I tell you that we NEVER go out without life vests. Why? Well, because even a GREAT swimmer can get tired, or knocked out, or winded. Because you HAVE to be prepared for an emergency. With adults, they may or may not wear their vests, but they have them and kids ALWAYS wear them. I think they were grossly irresponsible. I would call and speak to whomever I had to and express a great displeasure that my child's life was risked, proper safety equipment was not readily available and that this was not mentioned before they left. There's not much else, I wouldn't have the leaders fired, unless it turns out they have a knack for forgetting basic safety rules. I would make sure that the understood how deeply upset I was, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katemary63 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Did they rent the canoes? I would think a permission slip (i.e. signed by you, the parent) would be required. Rented canoes would come with life jackets, I'm sure. Are you SURE there were not life jackets. Honestly, I find it hard to believe. Ask the youth group leader before thinking further on it. If there were no jackets, someone should be in hot doo doo...(sorry) I mean really, very, very bad judgement that needs consequences. Regardless if there were jackets or not...you should have had to sign a persmission slip for something like this. It is crazy not to know your kid was canoeing. I would be furious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jujsky Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 In a lot of places, children aren't required to wear a life jacket unless they are 12 or under, and you mentioned that they were teens. Maybe the youth group leader didn't feel it was necessary. Did you ask her if a life jacket was offered? Maybe one was offered, but since her friends weren't wearing them, she didn't want to wear one either. DH and I went to Cape Cod this weekend, went on a seal watch, and I saw this happen. There was a girl who was probably about 16 on the boat and she was petrified of the ocean. Her mom kept asking if she wanted a life jacket, and the girl kept refusing, even though she looked like she was going to be sick from fear. Teens do strange things to maintain an image, KWIM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTanya Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 view the youth as young adults instead of how I view them -- as preschoolers in big bodies. I mean, I know teens are strong and smart and capable, but I think they don't think about danger and precautions and what could happen and it's my job to continually child-proof for them. Like making them wear life jackets or carry cell phones or not ride with so-and-so . . . But I think the youth leaders see these teens as so much older than their own dc that they overestimate their abilities . . . I think I need to get more involved with the youth. They need some old fogeys to help with the supervision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I'm a strong swimmer and I would never canoe without a life jacket. I'd have a conversation with someone in charge so this never happens again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in the Kootenays Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 As a former lifeguard and parent to teens who are very strong swimmers, I would have been furious if someone had let my teens into a canoe without a lifejacket. I would be complaining loudly to those in charge of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeannie in NJ Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 wow. my dd is in a high school youth group and whenever there are plans for any activites beyond the nornal weekly church Bible study, the youth leader sends the parents an information sheet and I am required to sign a permission sheet and provide insurance info just in case. Also, we are located at the shore and the youth often go to the beach or boating, rafting etc in the ocean or the bay and EVERYONE wears lift jackets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I cannot believe anyone would do this. I am a strong swimmer and I wear a life jacket. I cannot believe that they did not insist upon it. We go canoeing every summer. They do not let anyone on the water without one - child or adult. Even if it were offered and refused, the leaders (and/or the people who rent the equipment) should have insisted that anyone on the water wear a life vest or remain on shore. If the leaders were not aware of anone not wearing a life jacket, there was not enough supervision on the trip. Not only did they risk safety, but they opened the church up to HUGE liability. The liability issue would be reason for firing, let alone making a poor decision about safety. A family friend died on a canoe trip. He was a strong swimmer who was trying to save a weaker swimmer. My nephew lost a good friend last summer who fell off a boat. He was a strong swimmer. The boy hit his head and lost consciousness. He drowned before they found him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 view the youth as young adults instead of how I view them -- as preschoolers in big bodies. I mean, I know teens are strong and smart and capable, but I think they don't think about danger and precautions and what could happen and it's my job to continually child-proof for them. Like making them wear life jackets or carry cell phones or not ride with so-and-so . . . But I think the youth leaders see these teens as so much older than their own dc that they overestimate their abilities . . . I think I need to get more involved with the youth. They need some old fogeys to help with the supervision. Even if they view them as young adults they should still have worn life vests. Adults should wear life vests. The leaders should have worn life vests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I would never go canoing or in any boat without a life jacket. I think that was irresponsible of them. The first time I went in a canoe with an experienced person, it flipped over and dumped us into the river. Even with the life jacket, the strong currents were quite I a challenge. I do not think the result would have been good without one. I think adults too should were, not only for safety, but also as a good example:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I'd have a hissy fit like you wouldn't believe. Life jackets are a stone cold MUST as far as I'm concerned on ANY water activity (canoeing, boating, waterskiing, jetskiing, etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Me Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 May I ask - was it the youth leader's judgment not to wear the life vests, or the adult that the child was with at the time? My husband is a Middle School minister, and there are times when he is not aware of a decision by another adult in the group until afterward. Then the parent comes to him with their concern, which is fully warranted! For example, one of our adults in leadership burned a cd for one of the kids. The youth was interested in hearing different types of Christian music. The parent came to my dh very angry that the other adult had illegally burned a cd for his child. My dh had no prior knowledge of it, and so wasn't sure how to respond. All I am saying is, express your concern to the youth leader - he is ultimately in charge - but don't necessarily lay all the blame at his feet. Believe me, if he was planning a day as full as it sounds like this one was, he had tons of details to think through, and that may not have been one he made clear to all of his leadership. Just my thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingersmom Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I went canoeing every summer at camp and we always were required to wear life jackets. I can't imagine that any reputable place would let them in canoes without a life jacket. What was their strategy if their canoe tipped over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katiebug_1976 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I grew up canoeing all my life, and the first rule was always to put on your life jacket! It didn't matter if the lake/river was only 2 feet deep. If you tip you canoe and hit you head, you can drown in just a couple inches of water! My dh & I took our kids on their 1st canoeing trip in a shallow lake, but we required everyone to wear a life jacket. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion. I would make sure to discuss the details of future trips with this youth leader and make sure that your dc are properly protected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I would expect that anyone renting out canoes would absolutely require life vests on board. If they weren't there, I bet it was an oversight and I doubt the youth leaders knew that. The rental company is going to be thinking of it's own legal liability. I wouldn't think this was a bad choice of activities for teens as long as there were basic safety precautions, and that would certainly include vests. I would ask someone to confirm the lack of vest on board. I would also teach my daughter to stand up for herself. If she really didn't feel comfortable going out, she should have stood her ground. I'm not blaming her - that takes a lot of determination and guts and I think a lot of kids would do what she did - do it and complain to Mom later. But it's a great opportunity for your to teach her about how she DOES have the power to say, "No" to anyone, including church youth group leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 20 seconds is how long it takes to drown, I'm told. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I would talk to the youth minister and describe what your daughter told you without assigning blame. There may be another part to the story, so it's always best not to jump into complaint mode right off the bat. If it turns out that her version was accurate, then I would, along with my husband, express your concern as parents about the lack of life jackets. Part of the issue may well be the youth minister thinking teens are more capable than they are, but you also said a parent "held her hand" (as if that would help if the canoe tipped over) which, if true, demonstrates that other parents didn't use good judgment either. Keep calm and matter-of-fact and that will go further than expressing Mama Bear types of statements. Allow the youth minister to respond. If you feel like he listened and was enlightened, then there's no need to take it further. If you think he discounts your concerns, then I would talk with his supervisor about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezus Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Swimming in a city pool is a far different thing than being unexpectedly tossed out of a canoe on open water. Even a strong swimmer could be taken by surprise. I would definitely talk to the youth group leader about your concerns. All the youth should have been required to wear life jackets, and you should have been given the details of the activities prior to them leaving with the kids on this event. The adults in charge would have been setting a good example by wearing life jackets too, even if they weren't strictly required to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyof4ks Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I agree, very dangerous. I grew up on a lake, and to this day I wear a life jacket every.single.time I get in the water or on a boat. You never know if there is a plant to get tangled in, rocks you may hit or whatever. I want to stay on top of the water if I get hurt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 They need some old fogeys to help with the supervision. This has been a repeated experience for us... youth ministers who are either parents of preschoolers or not parents at all. I, on the other hand, am an old fogey. Clip that Class 3 life jacket in all the proper spots, adjust and test it to make sure that it floats you face up in the water before you shove off. DS12 is another Boy Scout required to pass a swim test before his canoeing campout this weekend. Amen to that. ETA: Yeah, I'd be mad, too. Be sure to talk to someone about it and get all the facts. Then be sure to make enough noise that it won't happen that way again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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