How do you teach your children to deal with human "mosquitos?"

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

We have been coming up against this problem lately and I don't know if I'm handling it right.

 

Let's say a little brother, a sport's teammate, or a neighborhood child, has singled out your child to pester with some annoying and repetitive action.

How do you expect them to handle it?

 

In the past I have said:

1. Ask the child to please discontinue the action. Repeat once more

2. Leave the vicinity of the pesterer.

3. If pesterer follows, come stand or sit by me.

 

It's easier to deal with a child of my own who is pestering a sibling, but we have had other instances lately that are not so simple to deal with. In my mind it is equal to bullying without the violence. This is done right in front of me, said child's mother, and a group of other mothers. Mother does nothing, she does not even seem to notice. This has been going on for some time. Finally my son just decided to "swat" the mosquito. Collective gasp.

 

Frankly, if I was my child, I would have done the same thing. But I can't say that can I? I didn't know what else to do but get right in the middle of the action (bowling league game) and just stand there with my tearful son, so that he could finish the game without incident.

 

I am dreading next week. How do I tell my son to deal with it when this scenario begins again? Does he complain to the other kid's mother before it escalates? Do I complain to the other kids mother? Do I speak to the child?

 

In case you are wondering, it is a whole series of little things, all unprovoked: blowing in my son's face, flicking his hair, whispering things, sticking his feet out when my son walks by, blocking his way, etc. There are 5 other children and they do not recieve the same attentions. :( :mad: :confused:

[JudoMom]

We have been coming up against this problem lately and I don't know if I'm handling it right.

 

Let's say a little brother, a sport's teammate, or a neighborhood child, has singled out your child to pester with some annoying and repetitive action.

How do you expect them to handle it?

 

In the past I have said:

1. Ask the child to please discontinue the action. Repeat once more

2. Leave the vicinity of the pesterer.

3. If pesterer follows, come stand or sit by me.

 

It's easier to deal with a child of my own who is pestering a sibling, but we have had other instances lately that are not so simple to deal with. In my mind it is equal to bullying without the violence. This is done right in front of me, said child's mother, and a group of other mothers. Mother does nothing, she does not even seem to notice. This has been going on for some time. Finally my son just decided to "swat" the mosquito. Collective gasp.

 

Frankly, if I was my child, I would have done the same thing. But I can't say that can I? I didn't know what else to do but get right in the middle of the action (bowling league game) and just stand there with my tearful son, so that he could finish the game without incident.

 

I am dreading next week. How do I tell my son to deal with it when this scenario begins again? Does he complain to the other kid's mother before it escalates? Do I complain to the other kids mother? Do I speak to the child?

 

In case you are wondering, it is a whole series of little things, all unprovoked: blowing in my son's face, flicking his hair, whispering things, sticking his feet out when my son walks by, blocking his way, etc. There are 5 other children and they do not recieve the same attentions. :( :mad: :confused:

 

I would talk with the child, and I would tell him that I am watching him and he needs to keep his hands/feet/air and anything else to himself. When he pestered my son again, I would speak to the mother and let her know that her son is having a hard time keeping himself off of my son and it's really bothering my son. Then when the mother did nothing, I would call the boy on it every stinking time. I wouldn't leave it to my son to deal with, because this boy isn't listening.

 

What a miserable thing to deal with, though. Hugs to both of you.

[Liz CA]

We have been coming up against this problem lately and I don't know if I'm handling it right.

 

Let's say a little brother, a sport's teammate, or a neighborhood child, has singled out your child to pester with some annoying and repetitive action.

How do you expect them to handle it?

 

In the past I have said:

1. Ask the child to please discontinue the action. Repeat once more

2. Leave the vicinity of the pesterer.

3. If pesterer follows, come stand or sit by me.

 

It's easier to deal with a child of my own who is pestering a sibling, but we have had other instances lately that are not so simple to deal with. In my mind it is equal to bullying without the violence. This is done right in front of me, said child's mother, and a group of other mothers. Mother does nothing, she does not even seem to notice. This has been going on for some time. Finally my son just decided to "swat" the mosquito. Collective gasp.

 

Frankly, if I was my child, I would have done the same thing. But I can't say that can I? I didn't know what else to do but get right in the middle of the action (bowling league game) and just stand there with my tearful son, so that he could finish the game without incident.

 

I am dreading next week. How do I tell my son to deal with it when this scenario begins again? Does he complain to the other kid's mother before it escalates? Do I complain to the other kids mother? Do I speak to the child?

 

In case you are wondering, it is a whole series of little things, all unprovoked: blowing in my son's face, flicking his hair, whispering things, sticking his feet out when my son walks by, blocking his way, etc. There are 5 other children and they do not recieve the same attentions. :( :mad: :confused:

 

You know, I may hit a nerve here with several people...but I am going to say it. I don't believe that hitting once or *swatting* the mosquito is all that wrong.

If your son has asked several times for this to stop he needs to defend himself when nothing else works. He could try to approach the other kid's mother first before he takes the matter into his own hands. If the other mother chooses not to act, your son will have to do it for her. ;)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

We have been coming up against this problem lately and I don't know if I'm handling it right.

 

Let's say a little brother, a sport's teammate, or a neighborhood child, has singled out your child to pester with some annoying and repetitive action.

How do you expect them to handle it?

 

In the past I have said:

1. Ask the child to please discontinue the action. Repeat once more

2. Leave the vicinity of the pesterer.

3. If pesterer follows, come stand or sit by me.

 

It's easier to deal with a child of my own who is pestering a sibling, but we have had other instances lately that are not so simple to deal with. In my mind it is equal to bullying without the violence. This is done right in front of me, said child's mother, and a group of other mothers. Mother does nothing, she does not even seem to notice. This has been going on for some time. Finally my son just decided to "swat" the mosquito. Collective gasp.

 

Frankly, if I was my child, I would have done the same thing. But I can't say that can I? I didn't know what else to do but get right in the middle of the action (bowling league game) and just stand there with my tearful son, so that he could finish the game without incident.

 

I am dreading next week. How do I tell my son to deal with it when this scenario begins again? Does he complain to the other kid's mother before it escalates? Do I complain to the other kids mother? Do I speak to the child?

 

In case you are wondering, it is a whole series of little things, all unprovoked: blowing in my son's face, flicking his hair, whispering things, sticking his feet out when my son walks by, blocking his way, etc. There are 5 other children and they do not recieve the same attentions. :( :mad: :confused:

 

Well, if/when it happens again, I'd probably get right up close, in his face, and narrow my eyes and lower my voice and say through clenched teeth, "Knock it off. Immediately. Now. Tomorrow. Forever. STOP IT."

 

That worked a few times for me.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

You know, I may hit a nerve here with several people...but I am going to say it. I don't believe that hitting once or *swatting* the mosquito is all that wrong.

If your son has asked several times for this to stop he needs to defend himself when nothing else works. He could try to approach the other kid's mother first before he takes the matter into his own hands. If the other mother chooses not to act, your son will have to do it for her. ;)

 

I do not disagree with you.

[lynn]

I don't have a problem kindly confronting other people's children if the parent is not correcting the situation. I have gone up to children and told them they need to stop doing whatever they were doing and leave my child alone. If mother doesn't like it tough they need to take responsibility for their children's action. Also, I do not have a problem with parents confronting my children if I don't catch the action first as long as their kind about it.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I don't have a problem kindly confronting other people's children if the parent is not correcting the situation. I have gone up to children and told them they need to stop doing whatever they were doing and leave my child alone. If mother doesn't like it tough they need to take responsibility for their children's action. Also, I do not have a problem with parents confronting my children if I don't catch the action first as long as their kind about it.

 

I prefer to be kind as well. I have found that much of the time when I'm kind to a bully, the child laughs in my face. So depending on the severity of the offense and/or how long it's been going on without resolution from the child or the mom in front of whom he's been doing it, I will, in a pinch, resort to a controlled and pointed snarl.

[j.griff]

I would loudly and obnoxiously say "X! Stop! That is NOT okay!" and then follow up with "X, you keep bothering my son, my son has repeatedly asked you to stop it. I am telling you now that you MUST stop bothering my son, this is unacceptable behavior and if you can't stop it I am going to have to ask you to leave." And if I were in a bowling alley, and the kid didn't knock it off, and the mother didn't make him stop I'd have to ask her to take her son AWAY from mine, and if she refused I'd get the management involved. But I just can't take carp from people when it comes to my kids, I had to endure carp from others because my mom didn't want to "make waves".

[Myrtle]

Finally my son just decided to "swat" the mosquito. Collective gasp. [/Quote]

 

I'm not gasping.

 

They may not be "violent" but they are being passive-aggressive. It's still aggressive and there is nothing unfair about stopping aggression with aggression.

 

Yes, have your child tell the mother.

Yes, you tell the mother.

Yes, you may speak the child, "My son has asked you to stop. Did you understand what he meant by that?" You are a big person, you can shadow your kid and directly address the mosquito any time he's doing something inappopriate.

 

The worst incident that ever happened to me was a nine year old girl being mean to my toddler on a play ground. Her family (I don't think it was her parents) did nothing when I informed them. At some point the kid got angry at my son and choked him.! She had gotten angry because my son was playing with her little brother and she was jealous.

 

I told her very loudly so that her family could hear, "Touch my child again and you WILL deal with the wrath of a 35 year old woman!" She dropped my kid instantly. It scared her to death.

 

The aunt (or whoever) of the child got hysterical with me and told me I dare not lay a hand on her little angel. "You are a grown woman, who do you think you are blah blah blah," she said to me. It did result in an ugly verbal confrontation with that family. I wasn't going to argue back with them after I had said what I needed to in order to make the girl stop choking my son. One need not "speak gently" or say please in the midst of a physical assault!

Sometimes you just need the stones to stand up for your rights and deal with the ugliness of a confrontation.

 

After having their kid yelled at, they didn't feel comfortable at that playground any more, took their kid and huffed off.

 

Now, I'm betting the next time they take their darling angel out and a parent kindly informs them of their child's misbehavior they will chat with the kid and watch her more carefully.

 

Parents who do nothing after being informed are not really "pacifist" parents. They are just lazy. The non-violent pacificst parents I know recognize passive aggressive behavior as being aggressive and rude and they work hard to explain to their kids how and why to act.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I would loudly and obnoxiously say "X! Stop! That is NOT okay!" and then follow up with "X, you keep bothering my son, my son has repeatedly asked you to stop it. I am telling you now that you MUST stop bothering my son, this is unacceptable behavior and if you can't stop it I am going to have to ask you to leave." And if I were in a bowling alley, and the kid didn't knock it off, and the mother didn't make him stop I'd have to ask her to take her son AWAY from mine, and if she refused I'd get the management involved. But I just can't take carp from people when it comes to my kids, I had to endure carp from others because my mom didn't want to "make waves".

 

And you know, when a grown woman feels intimidated by the enormity of a child bully and all the attendant bad feelings that may ensue, just think of how crushing that is for a child. My mom was a "fight your own battles" kind of woman, as well. And that was horrifying and crippling to me as a child.

 

Kudos to you, Virginia Dawn, for taking charge of this and standing up for your son.

[Karen sn]

Well I would walk right over to that kid and tell him to stop.

I told bully boys that if they didn't leave my daughter alone I was going beat their butts.

The one I knew she could take herself I told that she would if he didn't stop touching her.

 

That is harassment. I would NEVER let my dd do it to another person, animal, or bug.

I do not tolerate it AT ALL.

 

If I am going to look like the "bad" mother - it's going to be NOW while I am preventing the harassment from continuing instead of looking like the bad mother later in high school when my kid goes crazy and brings a gun to school and starts shooting the tormentors.

 

Shame on the kids mother and ALL the other mothers in the group for letting it happen. If I were there and saw him doing it I would either call him out on it in front of everyone, call his mother out on it in front of everyone "Are you going to let your child bully and harass VirginiaDawn's child?" - or I would corner the kid myself and pull a Rebecca DeMorney (spelling) in The Hand That Rocks the Cradle when she told the bully she would be doing the same thing to him if he didn't leave the little girl she nannied alone.

 

No one ever had a problem with me telling their sons to not touch or harass my dd.

For me - it was also letting dd know that NO ONE EVER has the right to physically hurt her or harass her. I had a reputation among those little boys as the mother you don't mess with, but I also played tagg on the playground with them and I taught them perfect penmanship. They learned to respect me AND my dd. All the girls in school appreciated it too.

 

(BTW - dd was in a Montessori class of six to twelve year olds. It was the bigger older boy population causing the problem.)

[PariSarah]

What does he think?

 

I'm totally with the "get involved" crowd on this one, unless your ds is at an age where such a thing might get him in more trouble than it gets him out of--say, late teens, maybe?

 

But even a youngish kid--eight, nine, ten?--might have some helpful input regarding what he thinks needs to happen. I might handle the situation differently depending on how he feels. "Mom, I just want it to stop" is a little different than "I'm frustrated that he won't listen to me," and might require different support from me.

[Karen sn]

AMEN, Pam. Clenched teeth and a snarl. You know - it's funny because I feel like a kid myself and that I can scare the fear of god in a boy bully is a powerful thing. I'm not any bigger than when I was in highschool being bullied myself.

[Kay in Cal]

Now, first of all, I totally understand why it would bug both you and your son, and don't even think that swating the child is even a bad thing...

 

BUT

I'm the mom of a 6 yo "human mosquito". He has a range of developmental and behavioral issues (including ADHD and sensory-seeking SID), and it would break my heart to hear him called a "bully" because he can't stop moving/touching/talking. Absolutely he needs to learn to keep his hands to himself, we work on it every day--but it simply isn't going to happen all at once, he's going to need repeated correction to keep from getting in people's faces with his words and his body. Now, perhaps the behavior you described is indeed meant meanly, I wasn't there, but if my son blows on people, touches their faces or hair, sticks his feet in front of them, etc, etc, it's because he really likes them and wants to be friends. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be corrected, but I would be very upset if a grown woman started screaming at him due to his disabilities!

 

I just want people to take a step back before characterizing some of these kids so negatively. Names hurt. Calling this anonymous child a "human mosquito" is, well, insulting and hurtful. Yes, he can't hear the words, but others of us can. I see those words, and I know it's about my son, or it could be. It hits me hard, and some others I know. I think that parents who have very "normal" children simply don't understand how destructive thier judgement can feel, even virtually.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Now, first of all, I totally understand why it would bug both you and your son, and don't even think that swating the child is even a bad thing...

 

BUT

I'm the mom of a 6 yo "human mosquito". He has a range of developmental and behavioral issues (including ADHD and sensory-seeking SID), and it would break my heart to hear him called a "bully" because he can't stop moving/touching/talking. Absolutely he needs to learn to keep his hands to himself, we work on it every day--but it simply isn't going to happen all at once, he's going to need repeated correction to keep from getting in people's faces with his words and his body. Now, perhaps the behavior you described is indeed meant meanly, I wasn't there, but if my son blows on people, touches their faces or hair, sticks his feet in front of them, etc, etc, it's because he really likes them and wants to be friends. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be corrected, but I would be very upset if a grown woman started screaming at him due to his disabilities! I just want people to take a step back before characterizing some of these kids so negatively.

 

Kay, would you not move in to intervene, though? And if someone "swatted" him, wouldn't you immediately explain?

[Antonia]

I would corner the kid myself and pull a Rebecca DeMorney (spelling) in The Hand That Rocks the Cradle when she told the bully she would be doing the same thing to him if he didn't leave the little girl she nannied alone.

 

 

I have taken kids into the corner for a little "chat" on occasion. The bad behavior usually stops immediately.

[Karen sn]

I agree with you Liz. What's funny is that then the bully runs and tattles on the kid who finally hit him. I tell the bully "You got what you deserved." I will not hesitate EVER to defend myself. If I ever end up a statistic, the perpetrator will be clearly marked with scratches and teeth marks and you will find his hair and DNA all under my fingernails.

 

Lots of peaceful creatures in the wild swat at an annoying child or friend. I once saw a mama bear gently knock a pestering child from her. People need to understand what no means. If the bullies never learn - in the end a bigger bully takes them out.

 

I feel very passionately about this and even though I ran from physical agressors as a child - as an adult I will not and I will be judge, jury, and executioner to a bully (no matter what our age difference). It is the one part of me that truly is the b word.

[Snickerdoodle]

Thank you for posting that.

 

I'm the mom of a 6 yo "human mosquito". He has a range of developmental and behavioral issues (including ADHD and sensory-seeking SID), and it would break my heart to hear him called a "bully" because he can't stop moving/touching/talking. Absolutely he needs to learn to keep his hands to himself, we work on it every day--but it simply isn't going to happen all at once, he's going to need repeated correction to keep from getting in people's faces with his words and his body. Now, perhaps the behavior you described is indeed meant meanly, I wasn't there, but if my son blows on people, touches their faces or hair, sticks his feet in front of them, etc, etc, it's because he really likes them and wants to be friends. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be corrected, but I would be very upset if a grown woman started screaming at him due to his disabilities! I just want people to take a step back before characterizing some of these kids so negatively.

[Amy in NH]

Well then I hope that, as his parent, you make sure you are providing the corrections *every time*, and not letting him constantly pester people. It really shouldn't be anyone else's job. And it really shouldn't have to ruin some poor innocent kid's fun time out with homeschooling buddies.

 

But if you are allowing him to constantly pick at one poor kid, you might expect him to get yelled at by that kid or his mother, and be thankful if it's only yelling.

[PariSarah]

Now, perhaps the behavior you described is indeed meant meanly, I wasn't there, but if my son blows on people, touches their faces or hair, sticks his feet in front of them, etc, etc, it's because he really likes them and wants to be friends. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be corrected, but I would be very upset if a grown woman started screaming at him due to his disabilities!

 

I hope I'm not putting more pressure on you than I should, but I would assume that you have to be pretty pro-active about smoothing over his social missteps, yes? Somewhere between your son's brain and the other kid's tears, you need to be involved, right? As a translator ("Oh, Dwayne, he's trying to be your friend--I'm sorry it's not coming out right.) or a peacekeeping force ("Tim, sit over on the other side of the bench until Dwayne has had his turn.").

 

Virginia Dawn was saying that this boy's behavior was leaving her son in tears. Wouldn't you feel some responsibility to intervene before that point?

 

I'm not saying what Amy in NH is saying above, that it's your job always to be right there all the time. I'm a big proponent of communities learning to live with people who are different/challenged/odd/whatever. But it doesn't sound like, if that's the situation, the mother is doing anything to facilitate her son's integration into the community.

[Karen sn]

Kay - gently saying this - your kid would do it to EVERYONE. This kid is picking ONLY VirginiaDawn's kid out of the crowd REPEATEDLY. This kid IS a bully. Your kid just has social skill issues - he's not MEAN.

I DO see the difference.

[Antonia]

There is a child in our hs group who has behavioral issues and hits, spits at, and verbally abuses other children. His mother loves to talk about his problems, but never seems to *notice* when he's actually acting out. When the group leader has brought it to her attention, she will give a half-hearted try at controlling him. I think she is just worn down. I feel very sorry for her, but I refuse to allow her son to intimidate and harass my children. I speak to him as necessary, as do the other moms. The leader has told me that if his behavior doesn't improve, they will not be invited back. It's not fair for the other twenty kids for this one to make their lives miserable.

[Kay in Cal]

Honestly, it depends on the situation whether or not I intervene in his behavior.

 

At karate (where he is 4 times a week) for instance, I sit by the sidelines and never say anything. Parents are expected not to talk, and most of the times if he is out of line he gets caught and sent for time out. If I really thought he was going to injure someone (which has never happened) I would certainly jump up and interfere regardless, but in that case I leave the discipline up the the sensei, which seems to work fairly well. They aren't quite as strict as I would be, but he doesn't get away with too much. He is still "annoying" to the other kids, however, I'm sure--lots of rolled eyes if he gets partnered with an older boy. He's larger than his age (6 yo) so he's often working with 8 or 9 yo boys.

 

At the playground--well, yesterday I intervened because he was about to crash through someone's sand castle. He thought it would be fun and the whole "quiet girl play" thing has never occured to him.

 

BUT if he is sparring with boys, usually I don't intervene unless it comes to blows or mean words. If I see real anger on a face, I'll intervene. If it is disrupting an organized activity, I'll step in. But if he's just being annoying in a loose group, oftentimes I let them work it out. I would certainly discuss his issues with any parent who approached me (and have!), but I don't think I would explain them his peers, other than to guide him through an apology.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

What does he think?

 

I'm totally with the "get involved" crowd on this one, unless your ds is at an age where such a thing might get him in more trouble than it gets him out of--say, late teens, maybe?

 

But even a youngish kid--eight, nine, ten?--might have some helpful input regarding what he thinks needs to happen. I might handle the situation differently depending on how he feels. "Mom, I just want it to stop" is a little different than "I'm frustrated that he won't listen to me," and might require different support from me.

 

He is a short, skinny 8yo (9 next week) with lots of spunk (he is not easily intimidated), the other child just turned 7 and is the same height and 3 times heavier. The behavior is directed only at my son and he has reached the point of not being able to concentrate on bowling. Most of these behaviors happen just as my son steps up to get his ball at his turn.

 

My son tries very hard to get along with him, and we have had talks about how maybe he is trying to get his attention and other possible reasons for the behavior. Now it is "just make it stop." :(

[Scarlett]

I think as with most things it depends on the situation, how well you know the child, the parents and all of that. Regardless I would not allow my child to be continually harrassed whether the offender had disabilities or not, even if it meant I took my child out of an activity. There would be lots of trying of other things first though of course.

 

For your average run of the mill pesky younger kid (and my ds has been one of those so I know both sides of this), I often say to the offender, 'stop that. Now.' If that doesn't work, I have been known to go over to the child and tell them to go to their parent. If that doesn't work I've been known to TAKE the child to their parent. :) One or all of those work surprisingly well.

[Kay in Cal]

Absolutely I'd step in if I saw another child crying...

 

Mostly I wanted to address the words being used in this thread like "bully and "mosquito" to name a child. Those are powerful words that are hurtful.

 

I wanted to speak up for parents of very challenging children--it hurts to be characterized as lazy or uncaring. We've got a tough row to hoe, and a little compassion goes a long way!

[j.griff]

I didn't realize there was a PC aspect to dealing with bully-ish behavior. :/

[Kay in Cal]

I didn't realize that asking an adult not to insult a small child meant you were being "PC". I thought that was maturity, compassion and good manners.

[PariSarah]

Mostly I wanted to address the words being used in this thread like "bully and "mosquito" to name a child. Those are powerful words that are hurtful.

 

Well, I can certainly get on board with a call to avoid dehumanizing language. I didn't initially see "mosquito" in that light, but I do now.

 

I don't share your view of the word "bully," however. It's not a label that I would toss around casually, but I don't think it's inherently cruel to call a child a bully. If a child is doing that which the word implies, calling his behavior anything other than bullying is not doing him any favors. I would put "bully" and "bullying" in the same category as "lying" and "liar." Words to be used with caution, but definitely to be used.

[Snickerdoodle]

I don't think there is a pc aspect to dealing with bullyish behavior. But I don't think it gives a parent the right to be a bully back to the child.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with telling a child to stop. Our children need to see that we will advocate for them when they feel it's out of their hands. But our children don't need to see us being bullies to even the score.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Absolutely I'd step in if I saw another child crying...

 

Mostly I wanted to address the words being used in this thread like "bully and "mosquito" to name a child. Those are powerful words that are hurtful.

 

I wanted to speak up for parents of very challenging children--it hurts to be characterized as lazy or uncaring. We've got a tough row to hoe, and a little compassion goes a long way!

 

Although, if a child *is* a bully, it's not usually because he simply has a disability. And I know the reasons are complex, and I do feel for those children, and when the mom won't stand up to the child it makes me think that they are probably being bullied at home by someone bigger.

 

But I will stand up for my child. I know the rage that dwells in a child who is bullied. I was mildly bullied in high school, and I remember feeling absolutely helpless and thinking that if I only had a gun, I would kill that boy and his laughing friends. He and his friends thought it was wildly funny, and could never have imagined what they did to my head. I was vulnerable because of home and personal situations. But I won't, if it's even remotely in my power, allow my child to feel that horror of rage and despair.

 

I would, as a mom who also had a son with a pervasive developmental disorder who didn't know how to control his mouth and tended to be a bully magnet, to watch for those kids who want to speak up but feel helpless and do not understand at all when they get perhaps unwanted attention from your son. They may feel there is something wrong with them (my son would have been overwhelmed with it), and a quick word of explanation to the parent, particularly with age-mates and younger, would likely do more good than harm.

 

Anyway, Kay, I understand, having been there with ds in a slightly different way (words, not actions -- the Pokemon conversation resonated painfully). The constant coaching that must be done with kids like this is wearing.

[Kay in Cal]

I definately agree in re-reading the original post it really isn't clear to me exactly what is going on. I guess "annoying repeated behaviors" means different things to different people. But my ds wouldn't do it to everyone--he'd bump into everyone, but he'd only "pester" older kids (usually boys) whom he admires and wants to be close to.

[j.griff]

I don't share your view of the word "bully," however. It's not a label that I would toss around casually, but I don't think it's inherently cruel to call a child a bully. If a child is doing that which the word implies, calling his behavior anything other than bullying is not doing him any favors. I would put "bully" and "bullying" in the same category as "lying" and "liar." Words to be used with caution, but definitely to be used.

I agree, thus my PC comment. I am probably biased though- I attended an elementary school that let the "special" kids get away with everything- even s*xual harassment in high school- with no consequences. I've seen relatives who do NOTHING when their "special" child was harming another child, because the child "didn't mean any harm".

And I do not think that the word "mosquito" was meant as an insult- and no one was saying it TO the child in question. Mosquito- an insect that bites (causes pain) and is consistently annoying (humming, swarming, repeated biting, causing pain and itching and possible other harm), it is draining as it feeds on the blood of those it bites.

[Kay in Cal]

Lol! You know me! I'm no doormat... I'll stick up for anyone, anywhere, and not just my own kids. That's how I got into this conversation in the first place. :-P

 

Assertive extroverts of the world, unite!

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Well, I can certainly get on board with a call to avoid dehumanizing language. I didn't initially see "mosquito" in that light, but I do now.

 

I don't share your view of the word "bully," however. It's not a label that I would toss around casually, but I don't think it's inherently cruel to call a child a bully. If a child is doing that which the word implies, calling his behavior anything other than bullying is not doing him any favors. I would put "bully" and "bullying" in the same category as "lying" and "liar." Words to be used with caution, but definitely to be used.

 

I've had to tell my son that he was being a verbal bully. He knew about bullies. That's not what he wanted to turn into. So using the word made sense to him and made more of an impact than simply, "You know, you are being annoying." Because he *wasn't* simply being annoying -- he was acting the bully, verbally. And he needed to know that.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Lol! You know me! I'm no doormat... I'll stick up for anyone, anywhere, and not just my own kids. That's how I got into this conversation in the first place. :-P

 

Assertive extroverts of the world, unite!

 

You betcha.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

And I know the reasons are complex, and I do feel for those children, and when the mom won't stand up to the child it makes me think that they are probably being bullied at home by someone bigger.

 

I would not rule that possibility out. :( It makes me think that the best course of action will be to speak directly to the child in a polite, yet firm and no-nonsense, way.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Are you referring to the mother here? I would not rule that possibility out. :( It makes me think that the best course of action will be to speak directly to the child in a polite, yet firm and no-nonsense, way.

 

Yes, the mother AND the child, or the child watching the mother be bullied or abused.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I definately agree in re-reading the original post it really isn't clear to me exactly what is going on. I guess "annoying repeated behaviors" means different things to different people. But my ds wouldn't do it to everyone--he'd bump into everyone, but he'd only "pester" older kids (usually boys) whom he admires and wants to be close to.

 

For me, annoying repeated behaviors means anything past "Stop. I don't like that." At that point, if the other person doesn't stop, it's the same feeling as being held down and tickled. It's a helpless, horrible, trapped feeling. Especially if you either a) can't walk away or b) if you do, you now don't get to have fun like the rest of the kids.

[Kay in Cal]

That's exactly what I thought... I'm not disagreeing with the inappropriateness of the behavior. But if the standard of "bullying" is "anything that happens after someone says stop", then lots of kids with disabilities are, by definition, bullies. They CAN'T stop--at least not now, at this age, at this time. They can be corrected, moved, intercepted--but the bar for "bully" needs to include some sort of intent.

[~Tara~]

I've not read the other responses.

And consider this a warning..many will not like what I am about to say. But, I just speak in honesty. This is where we've come to for our particular similar situation.

 

Eldest is often pestered by one particular boy. This particular boy behaves this way with everyone. That's just what he does. He pesters. He's a bully, basically.

We did as suggested/mentioned above...politely ask pesterer to stop, walk away, come to a parent. We, hub and I, have also told pesterer to stop. We get the 'yes ma'am/sir' and it stops for a breath. Backs are turned and it resumes.

But it just starts all over again. Over and over and over.

We have talked to pesterers parents. They 'deal' with it. Behavior continues. Over and over and over. Obviously, behavior not fully and properly dealt with.

We finally came to a point where we told our son to just deck him! Now, we do not promote fighting. Honestly and truly we do NOT. But this is what it came down to here. This boy was in my son's face, repeatedly. And quite often he was 'pretending' to punch ds in the face. Now, I'm sorry, but that is NOT acceptable. And we told our ds that he was free to accept that as a threat and could then defend himself, ie, deck him! How was my son to know that other boy was not truly going to punch him in the face? And how many times will the pesterer 'pretend' before he goes all out and DOES make contact? Pesterer has another pretty serious offense on his 'record' that doesn't assure me any at all that he will NOT punch my son in the face...just for fun.

 

So, like I said, I didn't read all the responses. I may be going a totally different direction here. I may get flaming tomatoes for it. It may not be the solution you were seeking. I'm just honestly sharing what we have done.

 

For the record, with other pesterers, the 'please stop, walk away' tactic has worked well enough. Maybe one other instance where that parent was involved because of pesterers persistence. And ds has never decked aforementioned pesterer, nor any other. He has only stood his ground, thrust out his arms when pesterer was coming near with a very stern "No, leave me alone!"

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

That's exactly what I thought... I'm not disagreeing with the inappropriateness of the behavior. But if the standard of "bullying" is "anything that happens after someone says stop", then lots of kids with disabilities are, by definition, bullies. They CAN'T stop--at least not now, at this age, at this time. They can be corrected, moved, intercepted--but the bar for "bully" needs to include some sort of intent.

 

What, though, about the kid whose parent doesn't interfere? (And now, as of course you know, we are veering into the hypothetical and not the personal. I'm just sayin', in case someone reads this and doesn't understand why I'm typing this!)

 

Is the other child's helpless feeling any less a "bullied" feeling? The intent isn't to bully, but if the actions produce the same helplessness in the recipient, how to we reconcile that? How do we protect the child? How can the recipient of the unintentional over-eagerness of the kid who metes out the attention and won't stop be protected against having to leave a cherished activity or play area or quiet moment of play? Where are the parents who will say, "You can't stop? Well, I suppose you can't. I will remove you from the situation, then. I won't allow this child to *feel* bullied."

 

I know that for a long time, ds played within earshot. And I did intervene BOTH directions. (And I remember how tiring and soul-sucking it was. {{{Kay}}})

 

Anyway, I guess I'm just musing here.

[Kay in Cal]

(Agreeing that we are far into hypothetical territory here)...

 

Well, if a child does feel totally bullied when the other child doesn't have intent, then doesn't their parent have just as much a responsiblity to teach that child to speak up? My younger ds is the passive "receiver" type (like my dh, :-) ), so I've been at that end as well. I think there can be inappropriate introversion as well as inappropriate extroversion, but it's much less noticable because it is -quiet-.

 

I don't know... social dynamics are tricky. I hold my kids to certain standards--if they are playing in a public area, they are expected to include anyone who wants to be included. Park play areas really are not the place for private quiet moments, and I think it's unreasonable to expect others will leave so that someone can enjoy their solitude. Now, if it was in a home... that's when you say "Thank you for coming! See you next week!" and usher them out the door to enjoy your privacy.

[j.griff]

Kay, I was trying to quote you but I see you edited your post. :)

ITU the part that you clipped out, and just wanted to state that I think that's a sad statement about

the state of our current society. I have actually been a bit pushy and have not "allowed" that to happen in public. :D I've told them that it's not an "option" because of the location, and if they wanted to include that "option" then they needed to continue their activity somewhere else.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

(Agreeing that we are far into hypothetical territory here)...

 

Well, if a child does feel totally bullied when the other child doesn't have intent, then doesn't their parent have just as much a responsiblity to teach that child to speak up? My younger ds is the passive "receiver" type (like my dh, :-) ), so I've been at that end as well. I think there can be inappropriate introversion as well as inappropriate extroversion, but it's much less noticable because it is -quiet-.

 

.

 

In Tara's post above, the child has spoken up, the parents have spoken up, the child's parents have intervened, but still the child won't stop. It sounds to me in their case, the child has very little impulse control and may very well simply be playing because that's all they know how to do to try to initiate the play.

 

Would the recipient, even if the "perpetrator" ;) is developmentally different, rightly be considered "bullied" even though the other child honestly means no harm? And after he speaks up and nothing changes, are all bets off? Getting a punch in the face for such a child would be completely random for him, based on his developmental state. Cause and effect might not make much sense to him, or he may have such low impulse control that it will make no difference in the long run.

 

[Edit: I keep asking this, but I'm NOT pestering, lol, just trying to clarify. (Do you *feel* pestered? :D) I just wonder what we call it when the person is not a bully but the helpless child that's the victim of the unrestrained activity of that developmentally different child makes them feel like they *are* bullied. And I'm starting to believe, reading this, that the question doesn't make much sense to me anymore. :P]

 

I'm inclined to say that the non-stopping child's parent should intervene consistently to the point of a small amount of physical pain, as simple operant conditioning in this case. Others, I imagine, would be horrified by such an idea. :

 

It seems, though, that the stakes are pretty high. Is the "victimized" child learning helplessness? Is the other child learning that there are not immediate, unpleasant consequences for his behaviors?

[Doran]

Reading the replies (most, not all) and especially taking to heart Kay in Cal's words, I am thinking about kids I've known who act in similar fashion. I've been to school with them. I've witnessed interactions between my kids and kids like the pesterer being discussed. A close friend's oldest son has Asberger's and is SO like this. No doubt, we cut him more slack than we might a kid we don't know as well, because we know him well enough to make some allowances for his social dysfunction.

 

While we, as parents, can't always be there to help assess a situation, in this case, there is parental observation and participation in the mix. Therefore, how difficult might it be for you to ask the parent for assistance (did I miss that you've already tried this? -- I remember only that you don't see the parent reacting, but not that you've actually spoken to the parent)? You might either explain that your child is feeling bullied (and, yes, use that word) or you might ask if she has witnessed the pestering that's going on between the two kids. Of course this opens you up to the possibility that the parent will become defensive and find your remarks offensive. But, how else will you know?

 

In the case of my friend's son, I have explained to my children that N has some tricky social issues. I sympathize with my kids who are frustrated by his behavior. But, I also try to remind them to be as patient as possible with this young man (13) because he doesn't "get" the world quite like some. I think that helps diffuse annoying situations for them, give them a modicum more patience. I also know that this boy's mother is rabid about trying to be sure her son is reined in when situations are spiraling out of control, even now, although it was more intense when he was a younger boy.

 

If, after conversation with the parent, you are given no specific information that lets you know this parent is on board (she might protect her son's privacy and not spill out that her son has this condition or that disorder, but she could nod in agreement and say, "Yes, this is an ongoing issue for us."), then I would begin to intervene on your child's behalf.

 

There is a girl of 8 or so in my dd's gymnastics class. She has a history of calling my dd out, blaming her for one thing or another. The first several times it happened, I was quick to jump to her defense, and to scold my dd for doing whatever it is this child claimed. But, over time, I started to pay more attention, and I've come to the conclusion that she is just making trouble while seeking attention for herself. So, just this week, I called her on it. Not in a direct way, but the child got my point. I was present for an entire gymnastics class while the other mother was not. When mom arrived and the child immediately ran to her and claimed that my dd had fallen on her foot and injured her, I stepped right in. "Oh, really?" I said. "I didn't see that at all. You didn't say anything about it at the time. I had no idea you were hurt." The girl changed the subject pretty quickly.

 

So, I think you have an opportunity here to make a more informed choice about whether this boy is a bully who needs one form of discipline, or a challenged kid who might need another, different form of discipline. But, I see no problem with discipining him in some way.

 

Doran

[Kay in Cal]

Sorry... I just clipped it because I realized I was leaving the realm the hypthetical and bringing in personal experience that isn't necessarily relevant.

 

FYI to others--it was about kids not being "misbehaved" but excluding others from their play, and that parents rarely intervene to enforce inclusion, in my experience. Good for you in making sure it happens!

[~Tara~]

In our particular case..I really don't see it as 'simply' an impulse control issue. It's a lack of boundaries and discipline issue. There's MUCH background to this case that I cannot/will not go into. He's a bully, plain and simple. And there have been no consequences for his behavior.

Sure, I said his parents have spoken to him, but they don't expect anything from him afterward. It's a polite toned talk of 'now don't do that' and on with their merry way. It happens again and nothing further is done. There's no follow-up, no consequence.

 

(for the record, not dissing the 'polite toned talk' I'm just saying..when it's gone on 3 times now, it's time to move beyond a simple polite toned talk..kick in the stern face and voice..amp it up to get this point across already!)

 

I'm inclined to say that the non-stopping child's parent should intervene consistently to the point of a small amount of physical pain, as simple operant conditioning in this case. Others, I imagine, would be horrified by such an idea.

 

That's what I'm sayin'!

Amen!

 

Ok, I'm done rambling now, I have nothing more useful to lend to this conversation :p

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

In our particular case..I really don't see it as 'simply' an impulse control issue. It's a lack of boundaries and discipline issue. There's MUCH background to this case that I cannot/will not go into. He's a bully, plain and simple. And there have been no consequences for his behavior.

 

 

Ugh, ugh, ugh. I'm so sorry. :(

[elegantlion]

As someone who was bullied as a kid I now take the "Sarah Connor" approach to my child, don't mess with him, or you'll get me too. I wish my mother had stepped in and stopped some of it.

 

I believe "Fear of the Lord" starts with "fear of the mother". :)