Homeschool, Unschooling, and Radical Unschooling

[Reya]

My goal is to grow toward unschooling.

 

Radical unschooling... Well, I've had some pretty bad experiences with radical unschoolers and their children, both. NOT ALL are bad, of course. But the odds, in my experience, at least, of well-educated, polite, and well-behaved children aren't good.

[Reya]

Just out of curiosity, would you consider what I do with science to be unschooling?

 

It's, "Hey, whatcha want to do for science today?" And he picks whatever is science-y. :-)

[LUV2EDU]

Just out of curiosity, would you consider what I do with science to be unschooling?

 

It's, "Hey, whatcha want to do for science today?" And he picks whatever is science-y. :-)

 

Borderline unschooling. From what some have stated, unschooling would be if your child said to you, "I want to learn about science today." Then he or she would choose how they would go about learning.

[Ginevra]

I'd like to meet minions of knowledgeable, competent, and well-behaved homeschoolers, but it hasn't happened yet.

That would color your opinion. :001_smile: All of the homeschoolers whose children I admire are somewhere in the realm of traditional homeschoolers and quite a few are classical. That is the main reason why I've become more classical as time goes by. Also, what I've seen with my own children bears this out. They are so much more knowledgeable if we are intentionally aiming to learn things than when I was more unschoolish.

 

I find unschooling to be based on a faulty presupposition. Unschooling says that anything a person is required to study is not learned or retained; only that which the person intends to learn is retained. I don't find this to be true. While it is certainly easier to learn about something that thrills you, it is certainly possible to learn about a subject one does't love. That's why my daughter, who loves language but not math still manages to be grade-level passable on math skills. She wouldn't be likely to work at math for fun, but she does still learn it and every year, she knows more about math and solving math problems.

 

On an unschooling board, an advocate of unschooling said her 14yo dd did not like math, which was initially disappointing to mom, who had a math degree and initially hoped her daughter would go to that same college.

But, she says, dd wants to be a writer, so she doesn't need math. :001_huh: This is not quite true, at least not if she ever wants to be a paid writer. It is hard enough to be published, but without a college degree, it is even more difficult. I heard this straight from an Editor's "mouth", on a writer's website. He said it's not impossible that a person with only high school would be published, but that he, as an editor, would not be confident that the person had the necessary skills of perserverence and meeting deadlines if they had not been to college.

[stripe]

But, she says, dd wants to be a writer, so she doesn't need math. :001_huh: This is not quite true, at least not if she ever wants to be a paid writer.

I consider math and literacy to be important life skills. My husband recently stood behind someone in line who was discussing how her $370 monthly car payments (for some 2000 clunker she bought used --?!) were making it hard for her to make her rental payments, seeing as she made $450 a month at her job, so she was shortly going to be evicted. Basic arithmetic might have saved her from this disaster.

[BlsdMama]

Borderline unschooling. From what some have stated, unschooling would be if your child said to you, "I want to learn about science today." Then he or she would choose how they would go about learning.

 

EXACTLY! True unschooling is completely and entirely child led. You don't get to strongly "suggest" you finally do phonics at age 10. If there is no interest, ah well, the TRUE unschooler assumes that at some point, the child, knowing what is best for himself, will choose to eventually learn to read. Or not.

 

No, I don't like unschooling. I love relaxed schooling, but that is a horse of an entirely different shade.

[Ginevra]

I consider math and literacy to be important life skills. My husband recently stood behind someone in line who was discussing how her $370 monthly car payments (for some 2000 clunker she bought used --?!) were making it hard for her to make her rental payments, seeing as she made $450 a month at her job, so she was shortly going to be evicted. Basic arithmetic might have saved her from this disaster.

 

Yes, I agree about these being important life skills. And that is very sad, about the car payment. :001_unsure:

[HRAAB]

When I first began homeschooling, I would have said never to unschooling, however, I have a child that made me take back that never. I could not teach her; it was absolutely ruining the mother/daughter relationship. When we were just mom and daughter, we were fine. When we were teacher/student, it was detrimental to the whole family. I tried a K12 virtual charter school, but in the end I was still the teacher. It didn't work. We were ready to put her in public school (private schools were not affordable for us), but I was so hesitant. Finally, as a last ditch effort, I tried unschooling. I figured one semester wouldn't make much difference. However, it made all the difference in the world.

 

Fortunately, she was a very bright girl, read and wrote above her grade level. I completely removed myself from her schooling; I was only a resource: mom, I want this book, I would get the book. She went to high school for one semester, decided she could move quicker on her own and came back home. She graduated and started college at 16. And the best part: we still have a very good, solid mother daughter relationship. So, yes, it can work.

 

I spent quite a bit of time on a couple of the radical unschooling lists, and I can tell you I was not a radical unschooler, at least according to many of the members. We still had rules that were to be followed such as curfews, what was acceptable, what wasn't. But academically, she was on her own. She had a goal, she made a plan, and she accomplished it.

 

Now with my other children I can't see where unschooling would be successful with them, however, I'm not sure about one of my 8 yr. old twins. But for now, I'm the teacher. I do believe children need a teacher or mentor, and I don't feel I (or her dad) ever gave up that role. Although she was directing her education, we were watching her, giving advice, support and help when she needed it.

 

Janet

[Ginevra]

Now with my other children I can't see where unschooling would be successful with them, however, I'm not sure about one of my 8 yr. old twins. But for now, I'm the teacher. I do believe children need a teacher or mentor, and I don't feel I (or her dad) ever gave up that role. Although she was directing her education, we were watching her, giving advice, support and help when she needed it.

 

 

I think that sounds lovely. This is the type of unschooling I would support, although I am not doing it that way.

[Ellie]

Borderline unschooling. From what some have stated, unschooling would be if your child said to you, "I want to learn about science today." Then he or she would choose how they would go about learning.

Well, maybe. He might not say it to you at all. He might just figure stuff out on his own.

[Terabith]

OMG! Ummm...your 5 year old still drinks from a bottle. Wow. No punishment, no rules, no education. Eep.

 

Okay, confession time here. We are not unschoolers, radical or otherwise. I'm pretty structured. But my 5.5 year old still drinks from a bottle. I'm embarassed and sort of ashamed, but......

 

She doesn't walk around with one all the time. She doesn't even use one every day. But when she's really stressed, it's a source of comfort. It leaks less than a sippy cup when it lays on its side for a long time.

 

She sometimes requests a bottle of milk while I'm reading to her at night, and I'll oblige. Most nights she asks for a bottle of water. She always brushes her teeth after milk, and nothing but water at night. Some mornings she'll request ovaltine in a bottle.

 

There have been many days and even a couple weeks where she doesn't ask for a bottle, and I have noticed that her fluid intake goes waaaaay down, and she sometimes becomes more constipated. And it's been a blessing when she's been sick. But, it's definitely something I'm embarassed about, but I can't come up with a good reason why I *shouldn't* allow her to have this comfort. Her desire for the bottle has gone down exponentially each year of her life. I dont think she will be going to college with one. But then, I'd probably be better off if I drank 8-12 ounces of water every night.

 

 

Just saying....

[LibraryLover]

Okay, confession time here. We are not unschoolers, radical or otherwise. I'm pretty structured. But my 5.5 year old still drinks from a bottle. I'm embarassed and sort of ashamed, but......

 

She doesn't walk around with one all the time. She doesn't even use one every day. But when she's really stressed, it's a source of comfort. It leaks less than a sippy cup when it lays on its side for a long time.

 

She sometimes requests a bottle of milk while I'm reading to her at night, and I'll oblige. Most nights she asks for a bottle of water. She always brushes her teeth after milk, and nothing but water at night. Some mornings she'll request ovaltine in a bottle.

 

There have been many days and even a couple weeks where she doesn't ask for a bottle, and I have noticed that her fluid intake goes waaaaay down, and she sometimes becomes more constipated. And it's been a blessing when she's been sick. But, it's definitely something I'm embarassed about, but I can't come up with a good reason why I *shouldn't* allow her to have this comfort. Her desire for the bottle has gone down exponentially each year of her life. I dont think she will be going to college with one. But then, I'd probably be better off if I drank 8-12 ounces of water every night.

 

 

Just saying....

 

I won't even say how old one of my kids was when weaned. It was getting dicey even for my comfort. Of course, the child is brilliant. :tongue_smilie: Is it bad when they learn to read before they wean? (Of course, my kids are early readers...)

[Terabith]

Yeah, my youngest nursed until 3.5 and still at four uses a pacifier. (And not just occassionally or when stressed.......She's an addict. She can't do it during most of daily life, or in public, but get in the car and she *really* wants it.)

 

I'm a big attachment parent/ extended nursing proponent, which makes it even more embarassing that my 5.5 yr old uses bottles. But she had oral motor issues and was slowly starving to death, so I did the exclusive pumping thing, though I didnt know it was a term at the time. Gave up after about 6 months or so. I think if I'd known then what I know now, about SNS and such, I might have had better luck. I did try LLL and a lactation consultant, but was getting so stressed. Anyway. Totally off topic.

[musicianmom]

I knew some kids who went through a bottle-drinking phase when they were WAY too old for it (like 7 & 5 or something). I was horrified at the time, but hey, they're adults now and perfectly fine.

[HeathenMom]

i have some close friends who are what i would consider exceptionally radical unschoolers and i actually don't think it's fair. their oldest (11) is very bright, but has the penmanship and spelling skills of my 6 year old.

[LUV2EDU]

i have some close friends who are what i would consider exceptionally radical unschoolers and i actually don't think it's fair. their oldest (11) is very bright, but has the penmanship and spelling skills of my 6 year old.

 

 

Texas requirements for homeschooling:

 

Homeschools must be conducted in a bona fide manner, using a written curriculum consisting of reading, spelling, grammar, math and a course in good citizenship.

 

I am curious to know what would happen if Texas's laws changed, and required home visits and/or curriculum review. Since unschoolers choose what subjects they want to learn about, would they be considered in violation of not providing reading, spelling, grammar, math and a course in good citizenship? :001_huh:

 

Just a thought.

[LUV2EDU]

I consider math and literacy to be important life skills. My husband recently stood behind someone in line who was discussing how her $370 monthly car payments (for some 2000 clunker she bought used --?!) were making it hard for her to make her rental payments, seeing as she made $450 a month at her job, so she was shortly going to be evicted. Basic arithmetic might have saved her from this disaster.

 

Yes, I agree. Eventually the child will need to learn basic math skills. It could be a disaster if they sign a credit contract not knowing whether the interest rate has been calculated correctly by the creditor or whether their employer is paying them the correct amount money for overtime.

[Night Elf]

I find unschooling to be based on a faulty presupposition. Unschooling says that anything a person is required to study is not learned or retained; only that which the person intends to learn is retained. I don't find this to be true.

 

Ah, maybe this is why I'm so drawn to unschooling. I remember the years I went to school and was forced to "learn" material I didn't like or felt I had no use for. I was a great student though. I could memorize pages of info and pass tests with high grades. I learned how to answer the teachers' questions to sound like I was knowledgeable and intelligent. And yet there was so very much I didn't retain. Trying to school my children at home makes me look absolutely uneducated. I see the same things happening in my children. And I also have seen homeschool moms talk about doing work all summer while public kids are on vacation so that they don't forget everything by fall.

 

The unschooling I learned about under some of the popular radical unschoolers was that kids will learn and retain information interesting to them. It's not that they avoid what is considered to be required by other folks, they just don't bother to have their kids be pressured by an arbitrary learning schedule. Kids will learn to read when they are ready and feel a need to do so. I honestly think that forcing kids to learn to read so early is why there are so many kids with reading problems. They are being required to execute skills that just haven't yet developed. It makes them look dumb. Also, unschoolers don't focus only on what kids intend to learn. The beauty of unschooling is being exposed to the world and allowing the child to absorb and manipulate the information in their own way rather than following someone's ideas. A child couldn't just decide to learn about ancient egypt if they were not exposed to it.

 

I was thinking of dropping this thread. We all have our opinions and this forum is really not the place to discuss the merits of something so opposite in educational philosophy. This forum is dedicated to educating in the classical method. Discussing other educational/lifelong philosophies in a serious manner just really doesn't make sense. The great thing is that we get to choose how to parent and educate our children.

[Night Elf]

i have some close friends who are what i would consider exceptionally radical unschoolers and i actually don't think it's fair. their oldest (11) is very bright, but has the penmanship and spelling skills of my 6 year old.

 

Okay, okay, I said I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore but I laughed aloud at this statement because of personal experience. My DH is constantly lamenting the fact that many of his coworkers (and I'm talking about several in the least) have horrible penmanship, spelling skills, and grammar knowledge. His coworkers all have masters degrees and they write technical manuals. When my DH coauthored one manual, he had to edit the contribution of the other writers before it was even sent to the publisher for editing. :tongue_smilie:

 

There will always be an exceptions. That 11 year old might grow up to be an english teacher. Who knows?? I've seen many people even on this board upset that their children aren't showing the skills that peers have. They worry the children will be behind all their lives. How sad to color a child's entire life by a lack of a certain skill at a certain age level.

[Renee in NC]

My 11yo has the penmenship and spelling skills of a 6yo as well, but he is dyslexic and dysgraphic. I have NEVER taught my 5yo dd how to write and she can write all her letters and is starting to spell words.

 

I wish I could be an unschooler, but I am starting to think that that I would be happier somewhere in the middle. I am thankful for this thread, as it got me really thinking about what is most important to me.

[HeathenMom]

Okay, okay, I said I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore but I laughed aloud at this statement because of personal experience.

There will always be an exceptions. That 11 year old might grow up to be an english teacher. Who knows?? I've seen many people even on this board upset that their children aren't showing the skills that peers have. They worry the children will be behind all their lives. How sad to color a child's entire life by a lack of a certain skill at a certain age level.

 

if this were just an example of a kid being a bit behind in some skills or a particular skill, i wouldn't have posted it in this context. i'm not an academic snob who judges another family's educational choices...but choosing not to educate is not fair to the child and makes it very tough for them to live up to their potential.

[Night Elf]

if this were just an example of a kid being a bit behind in some skills or a particular skill, i wouldn't have posted it in this context. i'm not an academic snob who judges another family's educational choices...but choosing not to educate is not fair to the child and makes it very tough for them to live up to their potential.

 

Ok.