Might have to swallow the "Big Bitter Humble Pill"

[Sweetpeach]

Hanging my head in shame as I confess that yes, I now believe grammar is important.

 

I've spent 4 years here, shaking my head, on my soap-box about grammar not being super important . . . yada yada yada . . . and now I'm standing up tall and confessing to the Hive that I was wrong. It is important. I've done a disservice to my kids by not making it a priority.

 

Deep Sigh.

 

Got that off my chest.

 

Return to your scheduled browsing/planning/researching.

 

Warmly, Tricia

 

Edit: There is no "might" about swallowing the humble pill. I'm crunching it back, the whole thing.

[Lovedtodeath]

Thanks for the heads up. So what happened? Is it still okay to wait until 3rd?

[King Alfred Academy]

:grouphug: *I* appreciate your confession and experience! I have been wondering about holding off on grammar and just working on it through our Latin studies. I have decided to continue with grammar instruction with GWG (it's pretty light) and switching to JAG in 5th grade.

 

So...thank you!:001_smile:

[lionfamily1999]

I admire your ability to do this.

 

Kudos to you.

[InHisGrip]

Would love to hear....if you're willing to share.

[Colleen in NS]

I'm crunching it back, the whole thing.

 

I'm picturing you saying this (I know Tricia IRL and she's really funny) and am howling! :lol:

 

No need to take the Humble Pill, though - you just had an opinion that apparently changed!

 

I'm curious, too, though, what changed your mind (I'm sure that thread, but how did it change your mind?).

 

EDIT: BTW, it's not too late for your oldest to get a good head start...if you ever want me to show you how I take ds through a R&S lesson in about 15-20 minutes, let me know, I'll bring my TM to church or we could meet at Tim's again or you could come visit me some evening. Ds just finished book 5, and book 5 is still a place someone can start, even if previous experience has been shaky (and yours would probably pick it up quickly). No pressure, though, only if you want to.:)

Edited July 4, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[Sweetpeach]

Well, here it goes.

I'll attempt to explain without hopping from one soap box to the next!

 

End-of-year testing results changed my mind. I don't believe testing is the be all, end all for how a kid is performing but I do believe those test results are indicative of global strengths and weakness.

 

Deep sigh as I confess that my oldest son performed amazingly on the standardized testing . . . way above grade level in every single category except grammar. I'm sad to say that his mark reflected *below* grade level mastery for grammar. Obviously, he's a bright kid. Obviously, I haven't done my job of teaching him what he needed to know.

 

I can't ignore that red flag.

 

We homeschool for academic reasons in tandem with developing family life/heart level relationships. I've failed in this area of the academics of grammar. I've not taught any formal grammar and the grammar my oldest did wasn't discussed, talked about . . . I assumed he was getting what he needed via a workbook. Sadly, it hasn't worked out for us.

 

I don't think grammar has to be the backbone of a homeschool morning but it will certainly be getting much more of my attention in the fall. I will teach my kids grammar and it will get the same attention as math. School will take longer next year and I guess it just is what it is.

 

Now, to decide what grammar. I've looked at KISS many times. I've hard of JAG, R&S, Winston . . . and we are plugging away with Lively Latin which will reinforce the English grammar concepts.

 

Part of being a life-long-learner is being able to say: "I was wrong. I have to change my approach."

 

So I was wrong. There it is . . .

[homeschoolmom4]

Grammar is an easier subject to pick up, so I think you will be able to make long strides with it. My oldest daughter went into an Early College program and was shocked when in her English class and the kids didn't know what a preposition was among other things. The only reason she did was because grammar was a strong subject for me and I always find myself teaching my favorite things first. She did Easy Grammar Plus for two years and did awesome with it.

If I had to admit all the things I have changed my mind about I would be here forever.:D

[Lovedtodeath]

 

We homeschool for academic reasons in tandem with developing family life/heart level relationships. I've failed in this area of the academics of grammar. I've not taught any formal grammar and the grammar my oldest did wasn't discussed, talked about . . . I assumed he was getting what he needed via a workbook. Sadly, it hasn't worked out for us.

How old are your kids and what workbook? :bigear:

[Sweetpeach]

Colleen, we'll certainly have to talk and thank you for your kind offer.

 

I need to qualify my comments about the workbook not doing what it needed to do for us.

 

My oldest completed Yr 3 and Yr 4 of GWG. The hard part is I think GWG is a great program, thorough and in-depth. The problem isn't the program. The problem is the teacher who expected her boys to dig into grammar independantly. It didn't happen. That's not the fault of GWG. It's my fault.

 

I don't want people here ditching GWG for the next best thing. It's a solid program. I needed to be more engaged with their grammar learning.

 

T

[Moni]

Is it still okay to wait until 3rd?

 

You can do JAG in 5th grade. Stretch it out, make it last all year.

;)

 

:seeya:

[Colleen in NS]

I think GWG is a great program, thorough and in-depth. The problem isn't the program. The problem is the teacher who expected her boys to dig into grammar independantly.

 

Gotcha. Then is there a way (I've never seen GWG) to do the lessons with them orally, so that you don't get overwhelmed with a lengthened day next year? (I don't mean to poke and pry and prolong your misery here, I just love looking for efficient ways to do necessary things and I just love studying grammar right now....) going to bed now, it's late in the HRM.

[King Alfred Academy]

Colleen, we'll certainly have to talk and thank you for your kind offer.

 

I need to qualify my comments about the workbook not doing what it needed to do for us.

 

My oldest completed Yr 3 and Yr 4 of GWG. The hard part is I think GWG is a great program, thorough and in-depth. The problem isn't the program. The problem is the teacher who expected her boys to dig into grammar independantly. It didn't happen. That's not the fault of GWG. It's my fault.

 

I don't want people here ditching GWG for the next best thing. It's a solid program. I needed to be more engaged with their grammar learning.

 

T

 

Again...I can't tell you how much your comments are helping! This is basically what I have been doing...handing him the workbook and then "correcting" it. No discussion. No "let's take a look at what is happening with this pronoun". I KNOW I need to take a more active role, and you giving us your experience with it is very helpful. :001_smile:

[HappyGrace]

Thanks-you probably just saved me some grief in confirming something for me-I was leaning for awhile toward getting GWG so I COULD "hand her the workbook" but before I even read this thread I started leaning instead toward putting grammar study into our studied dictation so I could (read: had to) be more hands-on with it. Thanks for humble sharing your experience-very helpful!

[JudyJudyJudy]

We tried GWG 4 for a few weeks, and my son (then 9) hated it. I believe it was because he wanted more interaction with me whereas the program was allowing me to be "lazy" and interact less than we had in the past in grammar. We went back to FLL after that.

[Lovedtodeath]

Is GWG written for teacher interaction? For example Abeka Arithmetic is written for teacher interaction in the curriculum guide, but there are days (even weeks) that I can simply hand over the worksheet, because I don't have to do the teaching and the program makes it easy for me to do that. KWIM?

 

(I plan to do GWG 3-5 then switching to JAG.)

[lovemykids]

GWG is written to the student, but you can easily discuss it with them. We dropped it here, it just wasn't sticking. But then not a lot has with my girls. (although they test well in grammar so I can't complain too much)

 

I hope they are getting grammar from reading good books, and from copywork and dictation. We are planning on using Winston and Abeka with Daily Grams.

[Tohru]

The timing of this thread is awesome for me because I was just debating on if grammar was even necessary. Thank you for being so honest and sharing your experience.

[ssexton]

We use GWG here. I've used years 3 and 4 with my ds, and year 3 with my dd. We'll continue with the program this year. I've found my children really retain the material better if we go through it together first. I generally teach a short lesson from the Student Manual, and we do several examples together on the white board before they start on the lesson. Then, the next day, we go over any mistakes made together on the white board. Did I mention I love that thing? :D

 

I really think GWG is a great program, but I've found it does need a bit of teaching.

[Chris in VA]

Welcome to the (other) Dark Side.

 

 

 

 

 

Bwwahahahahahahah!

[angela in ohio]

Welcome to the (other) Dark Side.

 

 

 

 

 

Bwwahahahahahahah!

 

If I am on two Dark Sides, does that cancel out? :D

 

Seriously, though, I think it is great that you are sharing this. I have a friend who unschooled, and it totally failed her dc, and she tells everyone she can find. So many people I know get on a soapbox about something, but then when it fails, they fail to go and tell the people they influenced into it.

 

When you are done with your pill, have this piece of congratulatory cake from me! :001_smile:

[Michelle My Bell]

Well, here it goes.

I'll attempt to explain without hopping from one soap box to the next!

 

End-of-year testing results changed my mind. I don't believe testing is the be all, end all for how a kid is performing but I do believe those test results are indicative of global strengths and weakness.

 

Deep sigh as I confess that my oldest son performed amazingly on the standardized testing . . . way above grade level in every single category except grammar. I'm sad to say that his mark reflected *below* grade level mastery for grammar. Obviously, he's a bright kid. Obviously, I haven't done my job of teaching him what he needed to know.

 

I can't ignore that red flag.

 

 

 

I don't see how a test is going to prove anything. I was expecting you to say he couldn't write worth or lick or something that shows his lack of grammar knowledge has held him back in life in some way. All I hear is a test designed to find out if your child knows his nouns and verbs said, nope doesn't know a noun from a verb. I say, "Who Cares?" Does he read, write, speak well?

 

Michelle

[Capt_Uhura]

You know, I've read posts along the same lines about Singapore math. I think most things need discussing to fully cement the concept. I like GWG for giving us the proper terminology and putting the topics in our short term memory. I think getting it into long term memory takes discussing it through copywork, dictation, DC's own writing, and discussing sentences etc in books we're reading. Just like we practice what we're learning in math by having DC add up the bill, figure the tax, figure the tip, estimate how many miles to the store, etc....the same w/ grammar. Heck I found even after doing the lesson w/ DS and checking over his work, and then having a holiday break, I had to go back and read through in order to answer a question he had.

 

Also, it also depends on if you feel the test is measuring something important. If there is a grammar on test for 2nd graders, then perhaps someone might feel it's not important for a 2nd grammar to know....in that case, accept the score in that light and move on.

 

On the other hand, if DC is making errors in his own writing and can't correct or explain his mistake b/c he doesn't understand some aspect of grammar, then the test is bringing to light an issue.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Capt_Uhura
adding more info

[Sweetpeach]

I don't see how a test is going to prove anything. I was expecting you to say he couldn't write worth or lick or something that shows his lack of grammar knowledge has held him back in life in some way. All I hear is a test designed to find out if your child knows his nouns and verbs said, nope doesn't know a noun from a verb. I say, "Who Cares?" Does he read, write, speak well?

 

Michelle

 

Hi Michelle, I clearly stated earlier in the thread that the standardized test isn't the be all and end all of why we do what we do.

 

My son achieved high 90's percentile rankings in everything but grammar. The truth of it is, homeschooled kids have to perform on standardized tests if they are to be accepted into university. The below grade level performance on one small sliver of a test is an indication that I need to spend more time with grammar.

 

Each person makes decisions for their kids based on what's important to them. It's important for me to supply my children with all the academic tools they need so that navigating standardized testing doesn't become a hill to die on when university applications are processed.

 

Of course, my son reads, writes and speaks well. He's a bright young man. With regards to the test, however, I care about the results. Had I been more engaged with his grammar study, he wouldn't have been left blank during test time. Since I've been a voice of "who cares about grammar" for a few years now on this board, I felt it necessary to be honest and real about the results of holding that position. For us.

 

Standardized test marks are important for Canadian students looking to gain admission into undergraduate programs. I can balk at that all I want, but it is what it is. There are some things I'm not willing to take a chance with. I'm not trying to change your mind. I felt a duty to share.

 

Warmly, Tricia

[8filltheheart]

I am a HUGE proponent of starting grammar in 2nd grade. :) Welcome to the Draconian Club.

 

I honestly don't know how one teaches kids to write effectively without being able to discuss grammar in the context of their writing. Grammar knowledge does impact writing abilities.

 

When they are little, I teach grammar through copy work and silly games/sentences.

 

By the time my kids are in 4th or 5th grade, when we are editting their writing, we are discussing passive vs. active voice, re-writing with opening adj phrases/participles, etc, watching out for parallel construction, etc. Children can't be expected to incorporate what they do not know or understand. :)

[Julie in MN]

All I hear is a test designed to find out if your child knows his nouns and verbs said, nope doesn't know a noun from a verb. I say, "Who Cares?" Does he read, write, speak well?

 

Michelle

 

:iagree:

 

And depending on the test, they may not have even asked him what a noun/verb are. The Iowa Basics doesn't. The score may be showing he is a poor tester, poor editor, poor punctuator, or something else.

 

 

 

You know, I've read posts along the same lines about Singapore math. I think most things need discussing to fully cement the concept.

 

:iagree:

 

I think children need teachers.

 

 

 

For those of you who are starting to "worry" now, I'll share the other side. Both my sons tested excellently with little grammar background (oldest had almost none in public school, youngest is only doing formal grammar in 7th & 8th). My dd is the one who tests poorly and she is a grammar whiz. There are a lot of other factors mixed in there.

[angela in ohio]

I honestly don't know how one teaches kids to write effectively without being able to discuss grammar in the context of their writing. Grammar knowledge does impact writing abilities.

 

When they are little, I teach grammar through copy work and silly games/sentences.

 

By the time my kids are in 4th or 5th grade, when we are editting their writing, we are discussing passive vs. active voice, re-writing with opening adj phrase, watching out for parallel construction, etc. Children can't be expected to incorporate what they do not know or understand. :)

 

I agree. I teach writing classes and tutor students in writing. Other homeschoolers also randomly ask me to check out their dc's reports or stories in order to give advice. I have yet to see a child who isn't learning grammar who truly writes well (that is not to say that all who learn grammar write well, though.) A parent will often tell me that their child didn't learn grammar (or spelling or how to write) and still writes well, but it is because the parent doesn't understand grammar (or spelling or how to write) and can't see the problems. This child will eventually take a standardized test or have to write something the world will see, and others will know that there are grammatical (or other) errors, and the child will be judged for it.

 

Anyway, Tricia, if you want my unsolicited advice, check out Colleen's R&S book. Many with much older dc on here and that I know IRL have used it all the way through and have dc who are successful in grammar.

[BlessedMom]

Momof7,

 

Can you please share what Grammar you are using beginning in 2nd Grade and what resources you use for the "silly/games sentences"?

 

Thanks.

[Julie in MN]

(that is not to say that all who learn grammar write well, though.)

 

That is the part I'm interested in personally. I also tutor, and the kids I work with are in a very structured grammar program as soon as they are putting a simple sentence together. However, it's a worksheet program (with teachers too) rather than just working on their own writing. I see very little transfer of grammar to their own writing. I'd even say I see "none," except we do have that vocabulary to work with when discussing problems. So a very few kids will jump in & be able to fix their work if I say, "Your tense is switching back & forth in there," or, "Are you using articles before your singular common nouns?" The vast majority will stare blankly at me, because they just don't connect all that grammar training to their own writing.

 

My general feeling is that proper writing can only occur if (a) it comes naturally or (b) a teacher works extensively with the student's actual writing, including creating good habits of paying attention to detail.

 

It sounds like you have a different experience, with grammar training showing up in their own writing. I'd love to see that work. I don't know if you have any extra advice on that.

 

I've tried everything. The best bet (with native English speakers) is to have them read their writing aloud. Their brains seem to have absorbed proper grammar in speaking all on their own, and they often recognize errors when they hear them spoken, even if they can't name the errors. I also have a tiny bit of success when I really drill into them before they learn a grammar term that the information actually connects to every sentence they write. However, I mostly wish I could skip all that grammar & just work with their writing.

 

Sorry for the rabbit trail here.

[angela in ohio]

It sounds like you have a different experience, with grammar training showing up in their own writing. I'd love to see that work. I don't know if you have any extra advice on that.

 

 

I actually think it is up to the writing instructor (or program) to teach the application of the grammar. If you look at it classically, memorizing the facts of English grammar is the grammar stage of communication. Learning to use it is dialectic and rhetoric and needs to be taught as such. It involves constant discussion with the student about how the grammar they learned applies to their writing and speech, as well as practice in actually applying it. A student who doesn't know the grammar of grammar :D cannot even begin the discussion, though.

 

I do tend to find that the students who do a workbook "fill in the blank" type grammar need more help learning to apply what they learned in grammar to their writing. Some parents are excellent at teaching this; some writing programs are, also.

 

IMO, just as reading quality literature isn't a guarantee of good writing but is a prerequisite for it, so learning grammar is also.

 

ETA: About natural writers... I have met dc who just naturally "get" writing style. Just as an artist with natural talent must still learn the technique to express that talent, so I also think that a child with natural "voice" must still learn the proper sturcture and grammar. Also, children without that natural talent can be taught to write quite capably, even though their writing may never be artistically beautiful. For example, I had a young man in a writing class recently who has a natural ability. His structure and grammar need a lot of work, but when those fall in place, he will be a better writer than the other students who have learned the same writing program. Without the writing instruction, he would have never been as good as the rest, though. I always tell students that making something pleasant to read is a skill that can be taught, but making something inspiring to read is a gift God gives some. :)

Edited July 4, 2009 by angela in ohio

[HappyGrace]

Cap Uhura-I don't know how to do quotes, but WELL SAID-your first paragraph is brilliant!

 

It solidifies some things I was thinking about, that were rolling around in my head, that kind of also tie in with the child being independent with schoolwork thread, etc.

[8filltheheart]

a teacher works extensively with the student's actual writing, including creating good habits of paying attention to detail.

.

 

This is how I teach. I believe it is dependent on the teacher to show students how to transfer their understanding of grammar into the written work. It is also precisely how I was taught.

 

I remember getting papers back from my teachers with every single grammar infraction underlined in red. I had to identify the mistake (write the violated rule), correct it, and re-submit my paper. I learned very quickly that it was a lot easier to do it correctly the first time!!

 

With my children, they work on one written piece per week. On Thursdays I assist them with revising and editing. I will point out areas with problems and ask them to identify what they are. I ask them if they see areas for improvement. I point out weaknesses that they miss. They then have to go and re-write their assignment and submit a final draft on Friday.

 

I NEVER accept a first draft. EVER!! Starting as soon as they are writing independently, I make sure they understand that writing is a multi-step process and that revising/editing is ALWAYS a required step. (If only I lived up to my own advice while typing on the internet!! :tongue_smilie:)

 

I just don't know how you do any revising/editing instruction with your students if you can't do it context of grammar. :confused:

[8filltheheart]

I have really adapted how I teach grammar over the yrs. When I first started homeschooling, I used a grammar book b/c I didn't have the grammar knowledge that I needed to teach and I was textbook dependent. I learned very quickly that that was not a position that was beneficial to either my children or me. Once I learned grammar, I stopped using a textbook with them until they were advanced enough to use upper level books on diagramming (like AG......however, I have found errors in AG, so I use it b/c I the sentences are there and easy to use.)

 

But, when they are younger, I simply take sentences from their reading for copywork (modifying them as necessary to exclude concepts they are not ready for learning). They write their selections double spaced. Then, we take what they have written and turn it into a grammar discussion. I start off with simple concepts like nouns and action verbs. They quickly master those concepts and we move on to adjs, advs, preps, functions of nouns (sub, do, io, op). They start to draw arrows from modifiers to what they are modifying and eventually graduate to diagramming.

 

For example, when my rising 5th grader was in 3rd grade, she could easily identify all the parts of speech and their functions in sentences like:

 

The canyon hallway narrowed to a flight of hand-hewn steps. The walls were moss-covered and damp and cold and clammy smelling. The sunlight did not reach the crevice trail, and the steps were blotted in purple shadow. There was the sound of water dripping.

 

I teach writing the same way. I take paragraphs that are well constructed and teach them why a paragraph is constructed that way. They learn to identify topic sentences, supporting details, transition words, transition sentences, concluding thoughts, etc. We spend a long time doing that before they start writing paragraphs on their own b/c then they actually understand what it is they are supposed to doing. ;)

 

ETA: Any book that teaches you basic grammar will ultimately work. PTIW has a lot of practice for students to learn how to use rubrics for marking errors (rubrics are usually 2 different methods for scoring: 1 for content and 1 for grammar/mechanics). For someone completely uncomfortable in grading writing, learning the methods taught in the 2nd 1/2 of PTIW would probably be beneficial. I do use it with my older kids b/c they can typically spot errors in others work more easily than their own......great teaching tool with no personal attachment.

Edited July 4, 2009 by 8FillTheHeart

[Lovedtodeath]

Thank you Momof7! Very helpful specifics.

 

By the time my kids are in 4th or 5th grade, when we are editting their writing, we are discussing passive vs. active voice, re-writing with opening adj phrases/participles, etc, watching out for parallel construction, etc. Children can't be expected to incorporate what they do not know or understand. :)

Did you say which grammar program teaches these concepts during these early grades?

[Lovedtodeath]

We use GWG here. I've used years 3 and 4 with my ds, and year 3 with my dd. We'll continue with the program this year. I've found my children really retain the material better if we go through it together first. I generally teach a short lesson from the Student Manual, and we do several examples together on the white board before they start on the lesson. Then, the next day, we go over any mistakes made together on the white board. Did I mention I love that thing? :D

 

I really think GWG is a great program, but I've found it does need a bit of teaching.

Thanks for the tip!

[kwg]

This is interesting and helpful! So, I guess then, just Latin is not enough grammar? You use Lively Latin? *sigh*

[sagira]

Interesting discussion. Thank you, OP, for sharing your hard-earned wisdom. Our plan is to start grammar in second year, with a gentle, interactive, mostly oral program -- Primary Language Lessons. Looks like I'm on the right track.

 

Great post, Angela in OH.

[Laura Corin]

Children can't be expected to incorporate what they do not know or understand. :)

 

Some children do absorb good writing through their reading, and then learn parts of speech incidentally through studying foreign languages. I would never say that this method works for all children; please understand that the intensive grammar route is also not for everyone.

 

Laura

[Julie in MN]

With my children, they work on one written piece per week. On Thursdays I assist them with revising and editing. I will point out areas with problems and ask them to identify what they are. I ask them if they see areas for improvement. I point out weaknesses that they miss. They then have to go and re-write their assignment and submit a final draft on Friday.

 

I really like this one project a week idea.

 

I NEVER accept a first draft. EVER!! Starting as soon as they are writing independently, I make sure they understand that writing is a multi-step process and that revising/editing is ALWAYS a required step. (If only I lived up to my own advice while typing on the internet!! :tongue_smilie:)

 

This would result in minimalistic writing by my son. And as you say, he knows that I don't do that all the time...

 

I just don't know how you do any revising/editing instruction with your students if you can't do it context of grammar. :confused:

 

I do this all the time with kids who are clueless about what they learned during 5 years of grammar, as well as with my own youngest who wasn't taught formal parts of speech until 7th grade.

 

Instead of saying, "Your sentence has no subject," which is usually met with blank stares even after years of grammar training, I discuss it in terms of what a sentence like that looks like to me. I make up a very clear, short example. I might say, "What if I said a sentence like you just wrote? How about, 'Looked cute.' -- does a sentence like that make sense?"

 

Or, I might say, "It sounds like you're talking about the cat here when you say "he," because your previous sentence was about a cat." Saying to an elementary student that his pronoun has no antecedent seems to complicate the matter as if I'd just asked the student to memorize a chemistry term right in the middle of solving a math problem.

 

In my experience, in about jr. hi the kids are starting to read & write more complex sentences. At that age, they seem ready to comprehend the connection between the grammar terms & the writing, and so I started my youngest last year in 7th grade & he learned the basic terms very quickly.

 

It just seems more connected to look at writing first, and learn the vocabulary of grammar as a higher skill. <sigh> maybe it's just how my brain is wired. I wrote well through college and learned grammar terms in my 40s :tongue_smilie:

Edited July 4, 2009 by Julie in MN

[BlessedMom]

Can someone please tell me what the abbreviation "PTIW" represents.

 

Thanks.

[8filltheheart]

Or, I might say, "It sounds like you're talking about the cat here when you say "he," because your previous sentence was about a cat." Saying to an elementary student that his pronoun has no antecedent seems to complicate the matter as if I'd just asked the student to memorize a chemistry term right in the middle of solving a math problem.

 

 

Since I know perfectly well what my kids are capable of achieving (and they know I do), nothing below their ability level is accepted. The revising/editing stage would be noting lots of areas for improvement and a 2nd draft prior to their final copy. ;)

 

I think as far as the antecedent discussion, it all depends on how they are being taught. My young kids know what an antecedent is and how the rules for pronouns apply. It doesn't have to be drudgery to learn grammar. It can be silly, easy, and simple.

 

For example, teaching about pronouns and antecedents can be as simple as taking a paragraph from a book and replacing all of the pronouns with nouns and teaching them how to go about improving the paragraph by using pronouns and how to decide which ones they can replace and which ones they can't.

 

For example:

 

Dad looked at Carrie questioningly. "Calm down, Carrie." Take a deep breath and tell dad what is wrong," dad commanded.

 

Through her sobs, Carrie blurted, "Blackie is stuck up in a tree. Carrie can't get Blackie down. Carrie tried to climb the tree to rescue Blackie, but Blackie climbed higher and Carrie couldn't reach Blackie."

 

Using lessons like the one above, yes, I can have a conversation with my elementary age students as to whether or not their pronouns are used correctly.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult, honestly. :D I just believe kids are capable of achieving high levels of grammar comprehension and incorporating those skills into their writing when they are taught via writing and discussion vs. a textbook. ;)

[8filltheheart]

Put That in Writing. Though any source that teaches you how to grade via rubrics would work. THat is simply one title I am familiar with. I am sure others might be able to suggest different sources.

 

Ok.....family will be back from the pool in a few minutes...time to go get ready for lunch. :)

[Colleen in NS]

It's important for me to supply my children with all the academic tools they need so that navigating standardized testing doesn't become a hill to die on when university applications are processed.

 

With regards to the test, however, I care about the results. Had I been more engaged with his grammar study, he wouldn't have been left blank during test time.

 

Standardized test marks are important for Canadian students looking to gain admission into undergraduate programs. I can balk at that all I want, but it is what it is. There are some things I'm not willing to take a chance with.

 

Tricia,

 

Way to go with clearly-written personal reasons to support your change of opinion!!!!! (I liked reading the whole post, but picked out parts I was esp. impressed by) I'm SURE you'll get it all worked out for next year.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[Julie in MN]

I'm not trying to be difficult, honestly. :D I just believe kids are capable of achieving high levels of grammar comprehension and incorporating those skills into their writing when they are taught via writing and discussion vs. a textbook. ;)

 

Oh, I'm not reading any antagonism in your writing at all!

 

I like your description of teaching a lot. It's more in line with my experience of "looking" at writing, and the value of discussion over workbooks.

 

I have some different experiences as to whether the terminology is necessary or helpful, what order of learning works best, when & why it actually transfers to writing, and especially where to push kids who don't like to read or write. But I can see the terminology works just fine in your family, so thanks for sharing the glimpse into that.

[Capt_Uhura]

Sweetpeach - thank you so much for opening up to us and initiating such a wonderful discussion! I know it took guts and you have them! :001_smile:

[mcconnellboys]

No worries! There's always time to catch up! Grammar can be studied at any age,

[lovemykids]

I think it is wonderful that you can openly admit your perceived failing. I am not on a soapbox, however, I do agree that some children can absorb proper grammar usage through reading, copywork, and well spoken parents. Test them on the specifics without any previous knowledge, and yes, they will show a deficit. Does this mean that they are behind? It depends on what your gauge is. Are they educationally damaged forever? I think not! LOL.

I also agree that children need teachers. Some of you have more time to spend with your children. Others of us have to choose which areas we will focus on, because we would be spread too thin if we went into detail with every component of every subject.

Personally, I start light grammar in first grade. I make sure they know a complete sentence, proper punctuation, subject/ predicate, noun /verb, adjectives….those are easy enough to teach and to grasp. Because I am strapped for time, anything more advanced than those few things can wait until third to fifth grade to be taught in depth. I do give them workbooks to use so they can pass a grammar test if needed, it works for the test, but I do not see tons of retention otherwise. This apparent lack of retention really does not concern me though, because I know they can learn it eventually. I see no need to beat them over the head with an intensive grammar program. It would never suit my oldest dd’s learning style, she is right brained and a big picture type of person. Like many people, my oldest is able to write well without having had detailed grammar instruction.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. I see why you want to make sure your children receive grammar instruction.

:)

[keptwoman]

Momof7 thanks for the specifics. I'd decided to do that sort of thing to teach grammar to my DS as the workbook approach is not going well. However I never studied grammar, and I'm sure it shows. Can anyone recommend resources for me to learn all the nitty gritty so I can pass it on to the children?

[Colleen in SEVA]

:lurk5:

 

Thanks to all who have shared... what a great conversation!

[8filltheheart]

I'm not sure what is common there in Australia, but any college handbook like Strunk and White's or Warriner's would be a good source. They typically cover all the grammar, mechanics, composition rules in a very condensed format with clear definitions and a few teaching examples.