yet another honesty question...nursing homes

[Emmy]

Here's another question that fits in with all the ethics/honesty questions floating around the board.

 

My parents are in the process of buying nursing home insurance. My Dad was telling me that it covers x$ a day for 5 years and then he asked me if I knew why 5 years. I didn't. He said that 5 years is the amount of time the government goes back to check on transfer of assets from parents to family members for qualifying them to get their nursing home paid for by medicare (or whatever government program it is). My Dad was shaking his head at how dishonest people are - signing over the house and all their assets to the kids to avoid having to use them to pay for their own nursing home care and then letting the government pay for it. I think this is actually a *very* common practice.

 

So - would you do it? Would you either sign over all your assets to your kids to let the government pay for your medical care? Would you accept a house or assets from your own parents to ensure your inheritance got to you rather than being liquidated to pay for their nursing home or medical bills?

[Orthodox6]

I did not know that.

 

Currently, dh and sil are trying to obtain a reverse mortgage on their mother's house, in order to pay for her ongoing care. Shenanigans such as you mention never would occur to any of us !

 

As for government paying -- Go visit a "government funded", rural county nursing home and ask yourself if you ever would want to live there. I visited one once, and the visit remains one of my most depressing, unsettling memories of how so many seniors live their final years.

 

One does not build ones life on the expectation of an inheritance.

 

We won't receive one, nor shall we leave one, of a financial type. We pray, of course, to leave a sound spiritual inheritance to our children !

[MyThreeSons]

There's a local boarding house that takes care of adults who need assistance -- most have some sort of mental illness but are relatively healthy physically. My dh started a ministry there years ago, and we have gotten to know quite a few of the residents. There are at least two who have complained to us that they turned over money to a relative, presumably so that they could qualify for the government to pay for their boarding home care, and the relative has violated that trust by using the money for himself.

 

My parents, on the other hand, set up their personal trust such that half of the assets belonged to each of them. That way, when one of them needed nursing home care, the other wouldn't be out on the street. I don't consider that cheating, but wise planning.

[lionfamily1999]

I'm not sure that many people do this with nefarious purposes in mind. My grandmother is giving away many of her things. Every time I see her, she gives me something and does the same for everyone else, for every visit. Her thought is to clear up any issues BEFORE she becomes incapable of doing it herself. Rather than relying on her kids to be fair to eachother and not create huge family rifts, she's doing everything she can to give her things away before it becomes an issue. Now, she may move into a home eventually (I doubt it, we're a big family and have many people willing to care for her), if she does, she will have nothing/no assets. It's not because she wants to cheat the government, it's because she doesn't want to be the cause of uproar later.

[littlebug42]

I would not however, I do have another side to this coin. My father is 67 years old, retired and disabled. He gets approximately $1200 a month in social security and a tiny pension. His only asset is a $10,000 whole life insurance policy with a current cash value of about $2000. He was recently diagnosed with leukemia. We tried to get him a home health aide through a state program for low income people and have been denied because the cash value of his assets is greater than $1500. He also has to pay for 20 % of all of his chemo treatments with his medicare plan. Contrast with the fact that my sister in law's mother passed away a few years ago. She never worked a day in her life and had everything from her illness paid for. She had home health and the whole shebang. If I had known it would come to this five years ago, I would have had Dad cash in that policy in a second and transfer the money to one of us. Trying to cover his burial expenses is truly the most responsible thing he has ever done and it is biting him in the butt.

[lollie010]

I do not necessarily consider this an unethical practice. Each individual has to assess his/her situation. Because there are risks to this very common practice, as well as benefits, I consider it more of a planning issue than an honesty one. Just my thoughts, which are subject to change.

[Moxie]

Isn't this part of the "entitlement mentality"? People think that they are owed nursing home care so they have no problem with hiding assets to get what they are owed. Kudos to your parents for taking care of these issues early!

[Julie in CA]

I do not necessarily consider this an unethical practice. Each individual has to assess his/her situation. Because there are risks to this very common practice, as well as benefits, I consider it more of a planning issue than an honesty one. Just my thoughts, which are subject to change.

:001_huh: How is it just a planning issue? Passing along your personal assets for the express purpose of having the taxpaying citizens of our country pay your expenses is unethical. Also, to my {admittedly minimal} understanding, illegal. There are risks, for sure, in breaking the law and stealing, and there should be *big consequences* to those who are stealing public funds that way.

[Tree House Academy]

I really think nursing home care is RIDICULOUSLY priced. My mom works in one and the cost for a semi-private room is over 5K a month! And this is for folks who don't need constant medical care as well as the people who need around the clock monitoring. It just doesn't seem fair. I don't pay 5K a month for my HOUSE. They wait until people are older and on fixed incomes and then take every dime they have. It is a sad, sick shame. Does anyone here really think that 5K a month is a "fair" cost???? I mean, there are people at my mom's nursing home who are capable of feeding themselves, wheeling their chairs around, and who are in relatively good health. They are there because they can't live alone, or family lives far away, or the "don't want to be a burden." Instead of pricing on an individual basis, they have the blanket cost of 3 times what my house costs (and I live in 3100 sq ft, new construction house). It is horrible.

 

And you also have to realize that there are a whole lot of "state" run homes and do you really think they couldn't absorb some of the cost. My mom works for a veterans home! Can you imagine a private home???

 

Sad is really the only word for it.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[LMA]

Let me tell you that I have known many people who signed over their assets to children/relatives before going to a nursing home.(this is before the 5-year rule went in effect) And some of them have children who don't fork over a penny of that money and they are now penniless and stuck in a nursing home with no one visiting them. So, scheming doesn't always work out.

 

I have had others tell me that they just spend their money before going into a nursing home as they don't want the government to have it.

 

I just wanted to add: that an estate planning attorney told me that there are only two ways to prepare for a life where you have to be in a nursing home: One is to save your hundreds of thousands for retierment to keep living in your home with assistance or in an assisted living facility or Two is to give away and spend everything before you go into a nursing home and be on Medicaid. Anyone in between is is going to be on Medicaid eventually for a nursing home because you just don't have the cash for a nursing home.

 

My friend's father was in a nursing home for 4 months and her mother received a bill for $23,000 for the nursing home. They never processed the paperwork for Medicaid and it was too late after he died. She had to take out a loan on her house or lose her house. She had no other savings. With the husband's death, she lost all his pensions and other retirement pay. She is 76 and had to find a job.

Edited June 13, 2009 by LMA

[Tree House Academy]

I would not however, I do have another side to this coin. My father is 67 years old, retired and disabled. He gets approximately $1200 a month in social security and a tiny pension. His only asset is a $10,000 whole life insurance policy with a current cash value of about $2000. He was recently diagnosed with leukemia. We tried to get him a home health aide through a state program for low income people and have been denied because the cash value of his assets is greater than $1500. He also has to pay for 20 % of all of his chemo treatments with his medicare plan. Contrast with the fact that my sister in law's mother passed away a few years ago. She never worked a day in her life and had everything from her illness paid for. She had home health and the whole shebang. If I had known it would come to this five years ago, I would have had Dad cash in that policy in a second and transfer the money to one of us. Trying to cover his burial expenses is truly the most responsible thing he has ever done and it is biting him in the butt.

 

 

See...it is THIS kind of stuff that makes me so sad! :( You are right...doing the best he can to cover his own burial expenses is likely going to end up costing his widow and children MILLIONS in the end. Someone, tell me that is "fair". :( I am so sorry for your dad!

[Tree House Academy]

For me, it has nothing to do with inheritance. My mom is lucky to pay her bills month to month. She has no money for me to inherit. For me, it is knowing that the government didn't take every last dime she ever had. Just because the government can't seem to figure out how to handle money doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't have the right to!

 

And what about land??? My dh inherited land from his grandfather (who wasn never in a nursing home). This was land he worked all his life. He raised his kids here and they raised their kids here. If he had been in a nursing home prior to his death, should he have just given up his life long work to pay for the care? Leave nothing to his children? Just have the government take it all and sell it off piece by piece so he could be all perfect? Oh h^ll no. This subject gets me HOT. I really had better shut up now.

[jujsky]

When my grandfather was alive, my grandparents didn't qualify for government assisted living because with their cruddy old reversed-mortgage house, they had too much in $$$ and assets. They were not wealthy people. In fact, they were barely scraping by with the high costs of medication they had to pay each month. Everyone in the family was buying them food because they couldn't afford it, but were too proud to say so. They were stuck in a Catch-22. They couldn't sell their house because they had no where to go, yet if they sold their house so they could qualify for assisted living, they would be put on a waiting list that would take up to 3 years to get off of. Where were they supposed to go for up to 3 years? Now that my grandfather has passed away, my grandmother is below the cut-off (I believe they were less than $500/year over the cut-off before).

 

With better planning, they would have avoided the issue. Some people see that as cheating the government, I do not. The government certainly wasn't fair to my poor grandfather who worked hard his whole life, raised 5 children, and never took a hand-out from anyone. Had he "cheated" the government and gotten into an assisted living facility with my grandmother, I truly feel he would have lived longer. The stress of caring for her played a huge role in his death.

[littlebug42]

See...it is THIS kind of stuff that makes me so sad! :( You are right...doing the best he can to cover his own burial expenses is likely going to end up costing his widow and children MILLIONS in the end. Someone, tell me that is "fair". :( I am so sorry for your dad!

 

 

Thanks Rebecca. This is actually all on the children as well as my parents divorced 34 years ago. He just happens to fall into a really gray area in our society where he doesn't qualify for much in the way of government assistance but can't afford to shoulder it all on his own either. Fortunately, there are some financial assistance programs we can apply for to help with some of the medical bills through private sources.

[Moxie]

For me, it has nothing to do with inheritance. My mom is lucky to pay her bills month to month. She has no money for me to inherit. For me, it is knowing that the government didn't take every last dime she ever had. Just because the government can't seem to figure out how to handle money doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't have the right to!

 

And what about land??? My dh inherited land from his grandfather (who wasn never in a nursing home). This was land he worked all his life. He raised his kids here and they raised their kids here. If he had been in a nursing home prior to his death, should he have just given up his life long work to pay for the care? Leave nothing to his children? Just have the government take it all and sell it off piece by piece so he could be all perfect? Oh h^ll no. This subject gets me HOT. I really had better shut up now.

 

But they are taking the money to pay for her care! Why should taxpayers pay for someones nursing home care so that the kids can get the land dad worked his whole life?

[Emmy]

We tried to get him a home health aide through a state program for low income people and have been denied because the cash value of his assets is greater than $1500.

 

This is really heart breaking. :(

[Emmy]

I think it's an interesting discussion - I really had given no thought to stuff like this previous to my dad bringing it up to me. I think he's of the age (65) where he is seeing a lot of this type of thing happen with their friends.

 

I do think it's a multi faceted issue and I agree with the one poster above that sometimes this happens and it's not with intent to cheat the government. Lots of older people sell their homes to move in with family because they aren't able to live alone anymore; and there's no intention to go to a nursing home later but sometimes it's just necessary.

 

I will say - when assets are liquidated to pay for care, I don't see that as the government taking away the person's assets. I see it as the person raising funds to pay for their own care.

[Lisa R.]

 

I just wanted to add: that an estate planning attorney told me that there are only two ways to prepare for a life where you have to be in a nursing home: One is to save your hundreds of thousands for retierment to keep living in your home with assistance or in an assisted living facility or Two is to give away and spend everything before you go into a nursing home and be on Medicaid. Anyone in between is is going to be on Medicaid eventually for a nursing home because you just don't have the cash for a nursing home.

 

.

 

Isn't this why people take out long term care insurance? This is what my parents did since they fell between the two categories you've listed above. They made sure to apply for it while they were in good health and still qualified.

[Tree House Academy]

But they are taking the money to pay for her care! Why should taxpayers pay for someones nursing home care so that the kids can get the land dad worked his whole life?

 

Honestly??? And you don't think that the prices are way over the top? You really think taxpayers are paying for it? And that elderly people do not deserve better - to have SOMETHING when they leave this world...something they can pass on that was important to them? 5K a month is REASONABLE...right? WHATEVER!

 

Medical care in general is overpriced. My grandparents were well off when I was a child. My grandfather got sick and spent 9 mos in the hospital and then died. After all the debt was paid, my grandmother died with $500 in QUARTERS. Her entire life savings - she was reduced to having literally NOTHING. I am so sorry you have to pay an extra 2 cents in your taxes a year so that people aren't wiped of everything they own. Poor YOU (not specifically You, MelissaD...just a blanket use of the word "you").

 

And, you know...my grandmother, my husband's dad...they all spent their entire lives paying TAXES too? Do you not think what goes around comes around? No one is paying higher taxes because of nursing home fees. How selfish can people get? "Just lookin' out for #1." What happens when you are that elderly person, wiped of your savings and everything you have?? What happens when your kids have nothing to remember you by because it was sold at auction to pay for your 5K a month room at the nursing home. Then might you feel differently? Might that bit of tax money bother you as much?

Edited June 13, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[Vida Winter]

I hadn't heard of the 5 year rule but would caution anyone counting on it that in an instant it could be reversed.

 

I would frankly be surprised if Medicaid is still a viable program 5 years from now. Nursing home costs are ridiculous and can wipe out a family in a matter of months. If the transfer of assets is legal, one can not blame someone from trying to protect their family from financial disaster. Part of the reason that costs are so high is that the families who pay cash for care subsidize the ones who don't pay anything at all.

 

My father was in a nursing home for one year; after that we were able to get him out and cared for him at home for the remaining 4 years of his life. Nursing homes (even the good ones) are horrible places. They stink, the caregivers for the most part are more interested in their smoking breaks than caring for the patients (I know there are many exceptions to this, but this was my experience), and things get lost and stolen all the time. When my dad was in nursing homes we would visit him every day and do his laundry because otherwise it would just disappear. The level of medical care he got was abysmal.

 

I dealt with this about 18 years ago. I'm sure it is even worse now. I'd plan on caring for a family member at home if at all possible.

[Moxie]

Honestly??? And you don't think that the prices are way over the top? You really think taxpayers are paying for it? And that elderly people do not deserve better - to have SOMETHING when they leave this world...something they can pass on that was important to them? 5K a month is REASONABLE...right? WHATEVER!

 

Medical care in general is overpriced. My grandparents were well off when I was a child. My grandfather got sick and spent 9 mos in the hospital and then died. After all the debt was paid, my grandmother died with $500 in QUARTERS. Her entire life savings - she was reduced to having literally NOTHING. I am so sorry you have to pay an extra 2 cents in your taxes a year so that people aren't wiped of everything they own. Poor YOU.

 

I'm going to walk away now since this is not something you seem to be able to discuss without an attitude. I agree that medical care is overpriced. I disagree that the money I earn in my lifetime is somehow owed to my children over paying for my care when I'm unable to care for myself.

[LMA]

In reply to the poster who brought up long term insurance. I lost your quote.

 

My mother's policy does not cover the entire nursing home care. It only pays $100 a day for a limited number of years. She pays $200 a month for this policy in addition to her Medicare supplement insurance and Medicare D program. She has COPD and has to have oxygen at night. That is a huge expense alone in any facility. Those policies don't cover a whole lot. This policy is all she can afford with her SS and small pension.

 

To the poster who hadn't heard of the 5-year rule, it's part of the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005.

[Tree House Academy]

I'm going to walk away now since this is not something you seem to be able to discuss without an attitude. I agree that medical care is overpriced. I disagree that the money I earn in my lifetime is somehow owed to my children over paying for my care when I'm unable to care for myself.

 

As I said in previous posts, this is a hot topic for me. I also pointed out that I didn't mean "you" specifically. If that constitutes "attitude" to you, then so be it.

 

No one said that people "owed" anything to their children. Most people actually WANT to leave something for their kids. For us, it is the land we live on. It is very special to us and very important that we keep it in the family. I would hate to have the government step in and take all we have to pay for medical care that is abysmal and overpriced. We are pretty well screwed out of tax money our whole lives - and I find it incredibly sad that when someone has lived their life and needs care for their remaining 1-5 years or so, they must lose everything they have worked for to pay for some ludacris, overpriced, crap care. Meanwhile, all the working and saving and planning is for nothing because God forbid this country actually take care of its elderly!

[Julie in CA]

Most people actually WANT to leave something for their kids.

 

Meanwhile, all the working and saving and planning is for nothing because God forbid this country actually take care of its elderly!

You know, most people nowadays are working hard in order to provide for their own old age, not to "leave something for the kids". In order to "leave something for the kids", you first have to provide for your own basic needs. Why should it be any other way? Why should I, as a taxpayer, pay for your parent's care, so that *you* can have their land? That's why they worked during their productive years...in order to put away what they needed for when they could no longer work. At least, that's how it's supposed to work. Why should (the collective) "we" pay for their care, when they have the resources to pay for it themselves? Do you really think that what's paid in taxes can sustain the services we currently need, like infrastructure, law enforcement, etc, as well as pay for the care for all of the aging population? Governmental assistance is intended to pay for those who have no resources to pay for their own needs, not for those who'd rather use their money for something else, or give it away.

[Impish]

But they are taking the money to pay for her care! Why should taxpayers pay for someones nursing home care so that the kids can get the land dad worked his whole life?

Ok, I've worked in nursing homes/Long Term Care facilities. Let me explain to you what that $5,000 a month gets you.

 

One bath a week.

3 meals a day...if you like whats being served. Your other option is a sandwich.

A room, shared. A dresser. A closet. A bathroom.

If you're unable to manage your own tolieting, you'll have your needs tended to approx 8x a day. And that's in a good facility. I've known others that you get changed maybe 5.

Meds given out. You're not allowed to have ANY of your own.

No privacy at all.

Constant supervision, checking in...why, its like being a child again, only you have no hope of escape!

 

That's what your $5,000 a month gets you. And if you're really lucky, you get a staff member like me, who treats you like a human being, talks to you about your late spouse, your children, grand children, your growing up, sibs, parents, grandparents, laughs at your funny stories, cries at the anniversary of your husband's death, weeps with you at the anniversary that your son died in a place whose name you can't even pronounce, who cares. You'll look forward to the shifts when me or someone like me is there. You'll tolerate, even dread the shifts where the others are there, the ones that view you with contempt, contempt for your failing body, your wrinkled skin, your shaky limbs and foggy memory, who are impatient with your hesitating movements and roughly pull your clothes off you and leave you standing there, stripped not only of your clothes, but your dignity and humanity as well, and as they pass the rough face cloth over you, you close your eyes and remember another time where you stood naked, and your husband's eyes looked at you with love, instead of the contempt in this young woman's eyes in front of you as she manhandles you into a hospital gown, guides you into bed, and shuts off your light. You lay there, staring at the ceiling, wishing that you were with your husband, knowing that each day will be a repeat of today, being treated and guided like a child, shoved into bed at barely 7 pm, no rights, no dignity, no options.

 

And paying $5,000 for the priviledge.

 

And lets rip away the heritage of the family as well now too, shall we, by demanding that land thats been in the family for generations be sold to support this sort of care. Its insanity that its $5000. Complete, total, and utter. Its ONLY $5000 when its privately paid, that's the thing. The price drops dramatically when its paid for by anyone BUT the private individual. I know that for a fact here. Its double or triple the cost here if someone's paying out of pocket vs if its paid for by the province. Its flat out robbery.

[Tree House Academy]

You know, most people nowadays are working hard in order to provide for their own old age, not to "leave something for the kids". In order to "leave something for the kids", you first have to provide for your own basic needs. Why should it be any other way? Why should I, as a taxpayer, pay for your parent's care, so that *you* can have their land? That's why they worked during their productive years...in order to put away what they needed for when they could no longer work. At least, that's how it's supposed to work. Why should (the collective) "we" pay for their care, when they have the resources to pay for it themselves? Do you really think that what's paid in taxes can sustain the services we currently need, like infrastructure, law enforcement, etc, as well as pay for the care for all of the aging population? Governmental assistance is intended to pay for those who have no resources to pay for their own needs, not for those who'd rather use their money for something else, or give it away.

 

 

It has really nothing to do with "leaving something for the kids" - it has more to do with not dying penniless and having everything you ever owned taken so that the government can make 5K per person in a double room.

 

This country SHOULD take care of their elderly. I definitely don't look at your 2cents worth of tax money as "taking care of my parents while I get their land." :glare:

 

AND...the last sentence...Governmental assistance is intended to pay for those who have no resources to pay for their own needs, not for those who'd rather use their money for something else, or give it away. ...So your suggestion then, is, just don't save for retirement. Then, when you can't afford it (because you didn't plan well or didn't make much or just didn't care to save for the future) the tax payers will gladly step in. However, if you worked all your life doing the best you can and in the end, it comes down to owing millions you never "planned" to spend - and you'd like to keep the house or the land or the valuables in the family, tough crap. Right?

Edited June 13, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[lionfamily1999]

So, is it wrong to give your things away before you go into a home?

[Tree House Academy]

So, is it wrong to give your things away before you go into a home?

 

LOL...just depends on which side of the coin you fall on. My opinion is NO! I think it is the best thing you can do, unless you want to die penniless and have everything you worked for in your life taken away so the gov't can make 5K per person, per room just for sh*ts and giggles while "taxpayers" gripe about having to take care of the elderly people in this country. :D

[I talk to the trees]

Ok, I've worked in nursing homes/Long Term Care facilities. Let me explain to you what that $5,000 a month gets you.

 

One bath a week.

3 meals a day...if you like whats being served. Your other option is a sandwich.

A room, shared. A dresser. A closet. A bathroom.

If you're unable to manage your own tolieting, you'll have your needs tended to approx 8x a day. And that's in a good facility. I've known others that you get changed maybe 5.

Meds given out. You're not allowed to have ANY of your own.

No privacy at all.

Constant supervision, checking in...why, its like being a child again, only you have no hope of escape!

 

That's what your $5,000 a month gets you. And if you're really lucky, you get a staff member like me, who treats you like a human being, talks to you about your late spouse, your children, grand children, your growing up, sibs, parents, grandparents, laughs at your funny stories, cries at the anniversary of your husband's death, weeps with you at the anniversary that your son died in a place whose name you can't even pronounce, who cares. You'll look forward to the shifts when me or someone like me is there. You'll tolerate, even dread the shifts where the others are there, the ones that view you with contempt, contempt for your failing body, your wrinkled skin, your shaky limbs and foggy memory, who are impatient with your hesitating movements and roughly pull your clothes off you and leave you standing there, stripped not only of your clothes, but your dignity and humanity as well, and as they pass the rough face cloth over you, you close your eyes and remember another time where you stood naked, and your husband's eyes looked at you with love, instead of the contempt in this young woman's eyes in front of you as she manhandles you into a hospital gown, guides you into bed, and shuts off your light. You lay there, staring at the ceiling, wishing that you were with your husband, knowing that each day will be a repeat of today, being treated and guided like a child, shoved into bed at barely 7 pm, no rights, no dignity, no options.

 

And paying $5,000 for the priviledge.

 

And lets rip away the heritage of the family as well now too, shall we, by demanding that land thats been in the family for generations be sold to support this sort of care. Its insanity that its $5000. Complete, total, and utter. Its ONLY $5000 when its privately paid, that's the thing. The price drops dramatically when its paid for by anyone BUT the private individual. I know that for a fact here. Its double or triple the cost here if someone's paying out of pocket vs if its paid for by the province. Its flat out robbery.

 

I wish I could send you loads of positive rep.! Your description of the quality of care is SPOT ON! My mother worked for several years as the D.O.N. at a nursing home. About 5 years ago, she quit and went back to working in a family practice. She took a 50% pay cut to do this, but she just. couldn't. stand. it. any longer. Now that she is helping others (hey, isn't that what nursing is about) instead of just trying to make the best of a dreadful situation, she's a much happier person. It's too bad, really, because the profession needs people like her (and you.)

 

-Robin

[LMA]

Ok, I've worked in nursing homes/Long Term Care facilities. Let me explain to you what that $5,000 a month gets you.

 

One bath a week.

3 meals a day...if you like whats being served. Your other option is a sandwich.

A room, shared. A dresser. A closet. A bathroom.

If you're unable to manage your own tolieting, you'll have your needs tended to approx 8x a day. And that's in a good facility. I've known others that you get changed maybe 5.

Meds given out. You're not allowed to have ANY of your own.

No privacy at all.

Constant supervision, checking in...why, its like being a child again, only you have no hope of escape!

 

That's what your $5,000 a month gets you. And if you're really lucky, you get a staff member like me, who treats you like a human being, talks to you about your late spouse, your children, grand children, your growing up, sibs, parents, grandparents, laughs at your funny stories, cries at the anniversary of your husband's death, weeps with you at the anniversary that your son died in a place whose name you can't even pronounce, who cares. You'll look forward to the shifts when me or someone like me is there. You'll tolerate, even dread the shifts where the others are there, the ones that view you with contempt, contempt for your failing body, your wrinkled skin, your shaky limbs and foggy memory, who are impatient with your hesitating movements and roughly pull your clothes off you and leave you standing there, stripped not only of your clothes, but your dignity and humanity as well, and as they pass the rough face cloth over you, you close your eyes and remember another time where you stood naked, and your husband's eyes looked at you with love, instead of the contempt in this young woman's eyes in front of you as she manhandles you into a hospital gown, guides you into bed, and shuts off your light. You lay there, staring at the ceiling, wishing that you were with your husband, knowing that each day will be a repeat of today, being treated and guided like a child, shoved into bed at barely 7 pm, no rights, no dignity, no options.

 

And paying $5,000 for the priviledge.

 

And lets rip away the heritage of the family as well now too, shall we, by demanding that land thats been in the family for generations be sold to support this sort of care. Its insanity that its $5000. Complete, total, and utter. Its ONLY $5000 when its privately paid, that's the thing. The price drops dramatically when its paid for by anyone BUT the private individual. I know that for a fact here. Its double or triple the cost here if someone's paying out of pocket vs if its paid for by the province. Its flat out robbery.

 

I can add to this. My friend's father was in a nursing home has Alzheimer's and he broke a poor CNA's jaw. That's how strong he was even with Alzheimer's. He was moved to the state hospital. Four weeks later, they called in Hospice. He was dying of malnutrition and dehydration (neglect, even though it was never proven).

 

Your story sums up why I am totally against having an elderly relative in a nursing home. I care for my mother now at my home and I believe that the care of elderly belongs to the family as it used to be before the government started taking over with Medicare. I believe visiting nurses are intrusive when they have to visit after the elderly come home from the hospital. No offense meant to you nurses (and many of you are great nurses), but that questionnaire is intrusive and nosy and allegedly required by Medicare. For example, can you make a meal by yourself? Of course, my mother cannot cook on the stove any longer. That's why she lives with me. Why can't you go up the stairs faster? Of course, she is slow going up the stairs. She had a hip replacement that made one leg longer than the other and has no muscle strength and she's 84. At least she's still going up the stairs.

 

There are many on the board who think their pediatricians are nosy. Well, wait until your parents live with you. All of sudden, because your mother lives with you, everyone gets intrusive. Ironically, I couldn't get any help for her when she was in her house living alone. I called her doctor and the senior health agency and everyone said they wouldn't or couldn't do anything. Also, the visiting nurse after her hip replacement didn't care that she would have had one of those portable potties in her living room right next to the velvet couch. (I returned the potty approved by Medicare and got a raised seat for the toilet, which was not covered by Medicare).

[lionfamily1999]

LOL...just depends on which side of the coin you fall on. My opinion is NO! I think it is the best thing you can do, unless you want to die penniless and have everything you worked for in your life taken away so the gov't can make 5K per person, per room just for sh*ts and giggles while "taxpayers" gripe about having to take care of the elderly people in this country. :D

I was hoping for responses from the other side of the coin, lol.

 

I don't understand why, if it's something that will not be used, why anyone should keep it. Beyond the millions of furtive old people out to get the government and our tax dollars, those few people that have things that are important to their FAMILY, iow, not themselves alone, but their family and heritage, why they should be FORCED to keep these things and let them fall into disrepair, or (imo, worse) other people's hands. I've always thought it was the RESPONSIBLE thing, to pass on what you have, while you still can, while you can still explain its meaning or signifigance, especially if you know it's something you will not be able to care for. How silly for someone in a home to still own their house and their things, when they will never go back to them. What could be the point? And then, should they be forced to sell things they would've given away in their will anyway? I mean, just because you're going into a home doesn't mean the government should suddenly have a complete say over the things that belong to you and your people.

 

Sorry, that went rambling on, lol... Hopefully, my point came across ;)

[Tree House Academy]

I can add to this. My friend's father was in a nursing home has Alzheimer's and he broke a poor CNA's jaw. That's how strong he was even with Alzheimer's. He was moved to the state hospital. Four weeks later, they called in Hospice. He was dying of malnutrition and dehydration (neglect, even though it was never proven).

 

Your story sums up why I am totally against having an elderly relative in a nursing home. I care for my mother now at my home and I believe that the care of elderly belongs to the family as it used to be before the government started taking over with Medicare. I believe visiting nurses are intrusive when they have to visit after the elderly come home from the hospital. No offense meant to you nurses (and many of you are great nurses), but that questionnaire is intrusive and nosy and allegedly required by Medicare. For example, can you make a meal by yourself? Of course, my mother cannot cook on the stove any longer. That's why she lives with me. Why can't you go up the stairs faster? Of course, she is slow going up the stairs. She had a hip replacement that made one leg longer than the other and has no muscle strength and she's 84. At least she's still going up the stairs.

 

There are many on the board who think their pediatricians are nosy. Well, wait until your parents live with you. All of sudden, because your mother lives with you, everyone gets intrusive. Ironically, I couldn't get any help for her when she was in her house living alone. I called her doctor and the senior health agency and everyone said they wouldn't or couldn't do anything. Also, the visiting nurse after her hip replacement didn't care that she would have had one of those portable potties in her living room right next to the velvet couch. (I returned the potty approved by Medicare and got a raised seat for the toilet, which was not covered by Medicare).

 

Absolutely! I would gladly spend what it took to have my relative cared for at home...knowing she was getting REAL care and that we were paying *fair* wages to those who are caring for her. My dh's grandma is 7 years into her alzheimers and the family pools together and pays for her to have in home care. So...STILL working hard to provide for themselves. Not taking a penny from the government. Of course, if she were to HAVE to go into the nursing home then she doesn't deserve a cent from the government. Right? :glare:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

By tree House Academy

For me, it has nothing to do with inheritance. My mom is lucky to pay her bills month to month. She has no money for me to inherit. For me, it is knowing that the government didn't take every last dime she ever had. Just because the government can't seem to figure out how to handle money doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't have the right to!

 

And what about land??? My dh inherited land from his grandfather (who wasn never in a nursing home). This was land he worked all his life. He raised his kids here and they raised their kids here. If he had been in a nursing home prior to his death, should he have just given up his life long work to pay for the care? Leave nothing to his children? Just have the government take it all and sell it off piece by piece so he could be all perfect? Oh h^ll no. This subject gets me HOT. I really had better shut up now.

 

 

:iagree:

 

The cost of nursing home care is astronomical and unaffordable for most Americans. I think that as a caring society, the frail elderly should be afforded medicaid to pay for Nursing Home Care unless they and their family fall into that super rich category:) I do not think that the average middle class elderly should have to squander their house or land, etc. to pay for a nursing home. I also think they should be able to pass it on to their children unless we are talking super rich:)

 

Just MHO:)

[Tree House Academy]

I was hoping for responses from the other side of the coin, lol.

 

I don't understand why, if it's something that will not be used, why anyone should keep it. Beyond the millions of furtive old people out to get the government and our tax dollars, those few people that have things that are important to their FAMILY, iow, not themselves alone, but their family and heritage, why they should be FORCED to keep these things and let them fall into disrepair, or (imo, worse) other people's hands. I've always thought it was the RESPONSIBLE thing, to pass on what you have, while you still can, while you can still explain its meaning or signifigance, especially if you know it's something you will not be able to care for. How silly for someone in a home to still own their house and their things, when they will never go back to them. What could be the point? And then, should they be forced to sell things they would've given away in their will anyway? I mean, just because you're going into a home doesn't mean the government should suddenly have a complete say over the things that belong to you and your people.

 

Sorry, that went rambling on, lol... Hopefully, my point came across ;)

 

Your point made perfect sense to me (of course) and since you aren't as hot and bothered about this subject as I am (oops), yours came out MUCH better!

[Ibbygirl]

For me, my dad is not in the picture and my mom is a bit of a spendthrift so I will probably have to take her in and care for her at some point. I don't expect any inheritance from anyone. If anything, I will probably have to plan to take care of my mother when she ages.

[LMA]

Absolutely! I would gladly spend what it took to have my relative cared for at home...knowing she was getting REAL care and that we were paying *fair* wages to those who are caring for her. My dh's grandma is 7 years into her alzheimers and the family pools together and pays for her to have in home care. So...STILL working hard to provide for themselves. Not taking a penny from the government. Of course, if she were to HAVE to go into the nursing home then she doesn't deserve a cent from the government. Right? :glare:

 

Oh, I believe the government should help her out without having to give up everything. She has paid her taxes all these years. Don't those taxes we pay let us benefit from something when we need it? (Food stamp thread comes to mind here.) There're even death taxes paid on assets that you already paid taxes on when you were living.

 

Louise

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

P.S.

I also believe that families and extended families should do more to help each other to try to prevent nursing home care. I know that I will do everything in my power to keep my parents and in-laws at home. As an RN though, I know that some conditions, such as severe dementia, require 24 nursing care and as such requires nursing home care:)

[lionfamily1999]

I have a solution!

 

Instead of giving their things to their kids to 'rob' the government......

 

They should all rob banks. Get locked up in prison, hey, they'll even be treated like grown-ups! Free meals, bed, tv, medical care, lots of exercise and entertainment, and no one complaining that they're robbing the system.

 

Sigh. I'm going to call my gramma and give her the good news :) What a relief.

[Tree House Academy]

Oh, I believe the government should help her out without having to give up everything. She has paid her taxes all these years. Don't those taxes we pay let us benefit from something when we need it? (Food stamp thread comes to mind here.) There're even death taxes paid on assets that you already paid taxes on when you were living.

 

Louise

 

:iagree: Thank you to the voices of reason who are stating this much better than I am. This is just one subject that gets me going because I have seen it happen to so many of our elderly and my mother tells me stories from her career that just make my stomach turn. It is robbery - like Impish said. Robbery! And heck yes, sell, give away, do whatever you can if you ever see yourself headed for the nursing home. You paid taxes, you did your part - now let the government and the other taxpayers do theirs!

 

I dont' have a problem caring for the elderly in this country. Not one bit. As a matter of fact, I would rather my tax money go to help those who came before me than for it to be spent on public schooling (er...because I homeschool and I am paying for other kids education with my tax dollars --- is that different than paying for "my parents" with "your tax money" while *I* get the land???). :tongue_smilie:

[bkpan]

It has really nothing to do with "leaving something for the kids" - it has more to do with not dying penniless and having everything you ever owned taken so that the government can make 5K per person in a double room.

 

This country SHOULD take care of their elderly. I definitely don't look at your 2cents worth of tax money as "taking care of my parents while I get their land." That is just ridiculous. But, you know, it is that mentality that makes this country what it is today. :glare:

 

AND...the last sentence...Governmental assistance is intended to pay for those who have no resources to pay for their own needs, not for those who'd rather use their money for something else, or give it away. ...So your suggestion then, is, just don't save for retirement. Then, when you can't afford it (because you didn't plan well or didn't make much or just didn't care to save for the future) the tax payers will gladly step in. However, if you worked all your life doing the best you can and in the end, it comes down to owing millions you never "planned" to spend - and you'd like to keep the house or the land or the valuables in the family, tough crap. Right?

 

I think that you are missing a vital connection here. It is precisely BECAUSE so many of our elderly who are needing nursing care and do not pay for it, that there is the ridiculous cost of $5000 a month charged. It is precisely the entitlement attitude that dad shouldnt have to pay for this, that the prices are so HIGH. Since so many children feel entitled to mom and dads money, they will take what they can, and leave the cost of care for others. Do you not see how that attitude creates the very loathesome situation that you despise?

 

It seems to me we only have a couple of choices. We decide to return to a society that cares for its parents in their old age - at home, ourselves. Or, we accept that there is a high cost to asking others to take that responsibility for us - and make the assumption that it may cost everything that dad and mom worked for. It does not seem unfair to me. It seems a choice that we make. Is it really hard? Yes.

 

And why do you keep assuming that the government gets all of mom and dads assets? Most nursing homes that I am aware of are privately owned. Again, you (or mom or dad) are paying someone else to care for your loved ones - why is that unfair???

 

I really do not understand such an attitude of entitlement by so many.:confused:

 

Kim

[Tree House Academy]

I have a solution!

 

Instead of giving their things to their kids to 'rob' the government......

 

They should all rob banks. Get locked up in prison, hey, they'll even be treated like grown-ups! Free meals, bed, tv, medical care, lots of exercise and entertainment, and no one complaining that they're robbing the system.

 

Sigh. I'm going to call my gramma and give her the good news :) What a relief.

 

 

:lol:

[Penelope]

It has really nothing to do with "leaving something for the kids" - it has more to do with not dying penniless and having everything you ever owned taken so that the government can make 5K per person in a double room.

 

This country SHOULD take care of their elderly. I definitely don't look at your 2cents worth of tax money as "taking care of my parents while I get their land." :glare:

 

 

 

No, sorry, FAMILIES should take care of their elderly.

 

Personally, I will do everything I can to make sure my parents and in-laws don't end up in nursing homes. In the "old days" nobody thought this was the government's responsibility. It is the family's. And I wish that the gov't. would take some of that money that they would use for a nursing home, and assist families who need help with in-home aides, if a family member absolutely cannot afford to stay home and care for the elderly person. The government saves money, family gets to keep their land, and grandmother is with people that love her.

[Tree House Academy]

I think that you are missing a vital connection here. It is precisely BECAUSE so many of our elderly who are needing nursing care and do not pay for it, that there is the ridiculous cost of $5000 a month charged. It is precisely the entitlement attitude that dad shouldnt have to pay for this, that the prices are so HIGH. Since so many children feel entitled to mom and dads money, they will take what they can, and leave the cost of care for others. Do you not see how that attitude creates the very loathesome situation that you despise?

 

It seems to me we only have a couple of choices. We decide to return to a society that cares for its parents in their old age - at home, ourselves. Or, we accept that there is a high cost to asking others to take that responsibility for us - and make the assumption that it may cost everything that dad and mom worked for. It does not seem unfair to me. It seems a choice that we make. Is it really hard? Yes.

 

And why do you keep assuming that the government gets all of mom and dads assets? Most nursing homes that I am aware of are privately owned. Again, you (or mom or dad) are paying someone else to care for your loved ones - why is that unfair???

 

I really do not understand such an attitude of entitlement by so many.:confused:

 

Kim

 

LOL - I find that amusing. Entitlement. Yep, we shouldn't give them a DIME. Darn old people. Can't they just fend for themselves??? I mean, God, they have MEDICAID - what more do they need? :glare: Let's take all they have, I mean, ALL of it - and then we can wipe their butts 6 times a day and give them meds while taking away their freedoms. And even though they paid taxes, worked hard, gave back to others - let's just leave them in the cold. That land and such that has been in the family for decades - lets auction that off and give it to the nursing home. That nursing home DESERVES it so much more than the loved ones of those hard working elderly people (who likely work hard too). Let's make the health care system RICH while watching the elderly die penniless and let's make sure that things they work for are not given to those they love or kept "in the family." Wasn't all that hard work so they could leave the land to be divided up beteween the highest bidders while they fight just to have a clean room and to keep theives from stealing their socks? I can only hope that one day, this is what happens to me.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[Penelope]

I think it is the best thing you can do, unless you want to die penniless and have everything you worked for in your life taken away so the gov't can make 5K per person, per room just for sh*ts and giggles while "taxpayers" gripe about having to take care of the elderly people in this country. :D

 

The government isn't making the $5,000. There may be government run nursing homes (like run by the VA) but most are private or part of privately-owned conglomerates. As others have said, the reason they have to charge that much is because Medicaid will pay only a pittance, so private pay makes up for that.

 

Also, IME, the "nicer" homes may not take the Medicaid patients, or take fewer of them. The patient that is completely funded by Medicaid may end up in a not-very-nice place.

[lionfamily1999]

How many years did these people pay into the system? How long did they contribute to SS? Folks with property to lose are not folks that have milked the system all the way. These are people that PAID their taxes, people that were told, pay into SS and we will take care of you when you are too old to do so.

 

As for home care.... I'm all for it, however, in some situations the family cannot handle it. In those cases, the family puts themselves at risk (for charges of abuse/neglect), if they don't get outside help. For a family that cannot afford that, state care is the only way to go.

[Tree House Academy]

The government isn't making the $5,000. There may be government run nursing homes (like run by the VA) but most are private or part of privately-owned conglomerates. As others have said, the reason they have to charge that much is because Medicaid will pay only a pittance, so private pay makes up for that.

 

Also, IME, the "nicer" homes may not take the Medicaid patients, or take fewer of them. The patient that is completely funded by Medicaid may end up in a not-very-nice place.

 

This is a non-issue to me. I don't care if you are paying private or public, it doesn't change my opinion that selling your stuff or giving it to your kids is a good idea if you see yourself going there any time in the near future.

[Penelope]

How many years did these people pay into the system? How long did they contribute to SS? Folks with property to lose are not folks that have milked the system all the way. These are people that PAID their taxes, people that were told, pay into SS and we will take care of you when you are too old to do so.

 

 

Yes, and they do receive social security, but that usually isn't enough to pay for a nursing home.

 

Yes, we pay taxes all our lives (well, except now about 40% of people working today don't pay any income taxes, that's another kettle of fish :glare: ), which go to things to fund the public good (roads, defense, libraries, schools, and on and on). I am sure one person's taxes do not add up to enough to pay for all that, PLUS thousands or probably hundreds of thousands of costs that will be incurred by Medicare on his behalf, PLUS thousands of dollars per month for several years, of nursing home care. And guess what, this is why our country is BROKE!

[lionfamily1999]

Yes, and they do receive social security, but that usually isn't enough to pay for a nursing home.

 

Yes, we pay taxes all our lives (well, except now about 40% of people working today don't pay any income taxes, that's another kettle of fish :glare: ), which go to things to fund the public good (roads, defense, libraries, schools, and on and on). I am sure one person's taxes do not add up to enough to pay for all that, PLUS thousands or probably hundreds of thousands of costs that will be incurred by Medicare on his behalf, PLUS thousands of dollars per month for several years, of nursing home care. And guess what, this is why our country is BROKE!

But, for those in homes today, the government told them they would be okay in their old age, because they paid for SS.

 

As for why we're broke... I'm more miffed about bridges to nowhere, pork pork pork, art shows on the public bill, and spending of that sort. Someone giving their family their possessions and then qualifying for more gov. assistance does not bother me in the least.

[bkpan]

LOL - I find that amusing. Entitlement. Yep, we shouldn't give them a DIME. Darn old people. Can't they just fend for themselves??? I mean, God, they have MEDICAID - what more do they need? :glare: Let's take all they have, I mean, ALL of it - and then we can wipe their butts 6 times a day and give them meds while taking away their freedoms. And even though they paid taxes, worked hard, gave back to others - let's just leave them in the cold. That land and such that has been in the family for decades - lets auction that off and give it to the nursing home. That nursing home DESERVES it so much more than the loved ones of those hard working elderly people (who likely work hard too). Let's make the health care system RICH while watching the elderly die penniless and let's make sure that things they work for are not given to those they love or kept "in the family." Wasn't all that hard work so they could leave the land to be divided up beteween the highest bidders while they fight just to have a clean room and to keep theives from stealing their socks? I can only hope that one day, this is what happens to me.

 

:001_huh:

I dont understand?? If the elderly used their very own assets to pay for their care, how is this unfair? You believe that the children should get all of their parents assets, while they pass on the parents care to others??? IOW, they (relatives) are not going to do the day to day care of their parents, but they DESERVE mom and dads money, rather than the nursing facility that is actually providing the care? Others should pay for this, while the children take the assets that mom and dad worked for and could have used to pay their own way?

 

I am sorry, but even though I do think our system is broken and in need of compassionate repair, I am baffled by your indifference to personal responsibility. You really cannot see how that attitude contributes to the problem??:sad:

 

You portray the nursing home as a vile, awful place. Please dont let your dh send his father there. I hope that you can find another way to care for him. No matter how or by whom it is paid for.

 

Kim

[Penelope]

I do not think that the average middle class elderly should have to squander their house or land, etc. to pay for a nursing home. I also think they should be able to pass it on to their children unless we are talking super rich:)

 

 

If you think nursing home should be paid for the average person, why should the "super rich" not be able to pass on their inheritance? Didn't they likely work hard for it, too? Why is it fair for Mr. A who lived like a miser his whole life and saved a million to pass on to his son (let's just say the son is even disabled in some way, or maybe he has 10 children to pass down to) to pay for his care and deplete his assets, while Mr. B. living on the same street who always had new cars, a boat, spent his vacations travelling in Europe and generally kept up with the Jones's, gets free care?

 

Who decides what super rich is?

Maybe if I live in a rented duplex I think someone who owns his own land is "super rich". Just sayin'.

 

This is the kind of argument that I believe is going to lead to the USA being socialist sooner rather than later. Pretty soon there will be more people saying "I want mine" than there are to actually pay big bucks into the system. And then there will be a lot less for everyone.