Marylou Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) Reading the "Is it Worse" thread about boys and girls playing sports and how they treat each other made me think of John Piper's recent article in World magazine. http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1664_Over_My_Dead_Body_Son/ What do you think? :bigear: ETA: I don't know if this came up already. I don't come here every day! Edited June 4, 2009 by dmmosher clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineFarmMom Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 It confirmed what I've felt for a while: I like John Piper!!! I agree with the article. Here was a quote I liked that he said: "This is not about courageous commitment to equality; it’s about wimpy fear of criticism for doing what our hearts know is right." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) I agree with the article. ETA: A question...should the same rule apply to being matched against a girl in taekwondo? Our son's school has as many girls as boys in class. Often, the girls are better at the sport than the boys at the same level. I think tournaments segregate the boys and girls, but I'm not sure because we've only had our son competing in forms and breaking so far. Edited June 4, 2009 by joannqn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I agree with his perspective and in so, regret my daughter sparring against boy in taekwondo. Not for her, b/c it was a boost for her, but for the boys, b/c although we reassured them she'd be fine (having 2 older brothers), I never considered how confusing this might be for the boys. Then, after she beat them, how it might have crushed their sweet little manlyness (not meant to mock). Hmmm....thanks for sharing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I agree! I have an eldest son and five dds and I was forever telling them no roughhousing, that it was not appropriate, not acceptable, and absolutely not allowed. Of course, my dds are very athletic and very competative so it was hard but they found other ways to annoy each other. I can not even imagine allowing my dd to wrestle with another boy. Duh! this would put sexual thoughts in the boys head. Not to mention the fact that a boy would connect these thoughts to the act of physcially overpowering the woman. Are they trying to train men to be physcially agressive with women? I can not even begin to imagine what any of the parents were thinking on this one. Plus, how did they match a girl with a boy - based on size? age? It is a well known and scientific fact that men have more muscle mass and are physcially stronger than women even if the man is smaller than the girl. How exactly would a women physcially compete with a man that is stronger than her and as well trained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Why should the stronger women be forced to fit the stereo type of the weaker sex? So, this girl is good at something, but shouldn't be allowed to compete, because she's a girl. She should shave her head and try to pass then. We've come so far. For pete's sake! We cannot even be equal in competition???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 This quote was enough to sully me on his argument: "There is a way to honor a woman. That’s our job as men. This honor “understands†something. It understands that women are the “weaker vessel.†" I am NOT a weaker vessel. Ownership of a penis doesn't equal strength or authority, imho. :glare: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Why should the stronger women be forced to fit the stereo type of the weaker sex? So, this girl is good at something, but shouldn't be allowed to compete, because she's a girl. She should shave her head and try to pass then. We've come so far. For pete's sake! We cannot even be equal in competition???? Ok, I can somewhat see your point here but even if the girl is stronger and she can win (which I admit would be very empowering for her) it would teach men to be physcially agressive with women and they would definitely have sexual thoughts doing it. Even if the girl wins that will just teach the boy to try harder and be more aggresive next time. I just don't see how this could be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherE Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 The boy should be able to separate being aggressive in a sporting competition and being aggressive toward women in general. Are boys who participate conditioned to be violent/aggressive to other boys off the mat? That would seem to be a larger problem than just participating in a sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Ownership of a penis doesn't equal strength or authority, imho. :glare: And I think John Piper would absolutely agree with you on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Ok, I can somewhat see your point here but even if the girl is stronger and she can win (which I admit would be very empowering for her) it would teach men to be physcially agressive with women and they would definitely have sexual thoughts doing it. Even if the girl wins that will just teach the boy to try harder and be more aggresive next time. I just don't see how this could be a good thing. Or, it could teach men that women are capable of kicking their hinies and they should mind their p's and q's. I see very little from the sports my kids participate in, moving out into general real life scenerios. IOW, my son doesn't believe he swims better than all females, because he's faster than the girls in his class. And my dd is finally free of the assumption that she can take anyone down with her karate. As for the sexual feelings... At that age, at least it would be less sexually confusing than getting "happy" when another guy grabs his rear end. Then, I've always found wrestling a little to close contact. And, hey, they have to learn to control those urges anyway, and SHE has to learn how to nip them in the bud, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I could 'have sexual thoughts' playing Scrabble. (and HAVE!) I don't think that the sport is necessarily going to increase the incidence of sexual thoughts. It is part of the age and part of just being human. Let the kids compet against each other. Males are not superior protectors and women are not inferior weaker vessels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Let the kids compet against each other. Males are not superior protectors and women are not inferior weaker vessels. "Superior" and "inferior" were never used in the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I used those words myself. I wasn't quoting the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhudson Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I choose not to have my boys physically compete with girls. My boys have been trained to be protectors of women not aggressors. For me, this isn't about women or girls being weaker but about making gentlemen and ladies. I am sure that there will be many young ladies that would give their right arm to be treated with respect both physically and emotionally by strong young men who have been trained to be gentlemen. We use the term "knights in shining armor" a lot because knights were trained in battle but also in honor and integrity. (Okay, I know that this may be fictional King Arthur but it is a worthy goal!) If the truth came out, both my daughter and myself are the stronger willed, dominant personalities in our home and no one in their right mind would define us as weak but hopefully they would define us as ladies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherE Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I still don't understand how competing against a girl who is an active, willing participant is perpetuating some sort of violence against her. She understands what the sport entails, understands the risks, and is there of her own free will. Most likely she is only able to compete in the sport by competing against boys due to a lack of female participants. It would seem that refusing to compete against her would be dishonoring her by not allowing her a fair chance to play at the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 I used those words myself. I wasn't quoting the article. Great. Thanks for your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanessaS Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 What's next? Girls versus boys in boxing? I don't think that the sport is necessarily going to increase the incidence of sexual thoughts. It is part of the age and part of just being human.Playing on a sports team with someone else (especially in the teenage years) is a very intimate experience. In my dance team we used to practice 3-6 hours a day together (excluding Sundays) and took part in 2-week camps away from home where we together 24/7. I can't imagine having to do that with a bunch of 16 year-old boys. I think the separation is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherE Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Playing on a sports team with someone else (especially in the teenage years) is a very intimate experience. So it has more to do with boys not being able to handle their sexual feelings? I'm trying to grasp what the root of the issue is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 So it has more to do with boys not being able to handle their sexual feelings? I'm trying to grasp what the root of the issue is. I guess I think the root of the issue is that males and females are different, and because of that fact they should be treated differently. Please notice I said "different", not "better" "worse" "inferior" "more worthy" on and on. I also realize that there are many folks who disagree with this statement: males and females are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I agree with the article. ETA: A question...should the same rule apply to being matched against a girl in taekwondo? Our son's school has as many girls as boys in class. Often, the girls are better at the sport than the boys at the same level. I think tournaments segregate the boys and girls, but I'm not sure because we've only had our son competing in forms and breaking so far. Our boys do tkd and we worried about out boys sparring girls. In tournaments it is segregated by gender and weight. In class they do spar girls but it is very different from a tournament. It is only to practice kicking techniques and defensive techniques. Only light contact is allowed. And, believe me, their grandmaster enforces this rule! I agree with Piper. I can't imagine any scenario where I would sit down and allow some guy to wrestle my dd. Sure, it is a sport, but there is an awful lot of grabbing and mauling that is going on. I'm supposed to just sit on the sidelines and allow some kid to grab my dd in certain areas of her body? I'm supposed to teach her this is okay because it is being done in front of a crowd on a mat? Not in this house!!! My favorite quote: "Men don't fight against women. They fight for women." Exactly what we are teaching our boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I choose not to have my boys physically compete with girls. My boys have been trained to be protectors of women not aggressors. For me, this isn't about women or girls being weaker but about making gentlemen and ladies. I am sure that there will be many young ladies that would give their right arm to be treated with respect both physically and emotionally by strong young men who have been trained to be gentlemen. We use the term "knights in shining armor" a lot because knights were trained in battle but also in honor and integrity. (Okay, I know that this may be fictional King Arthur but it is a worthy goal!) If the truth came out, both my daughter and myself are the stronger willed, dominant personalities in our home and no one in their right mind would define us as weak but hopefully they would define us as ladies. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 I'm supposed to teach her this is okay because it is being done in front of a crowd on a mat? Not in this house!!! :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Conflicting thougths... Well, did the girl compete because there were no other female competitors? How else could she compete? OTH, she is not the center of the world and why should the natural separation of male/female in sports go belly up just to accommodate her? Every other sport (or nearly) is segregated. I suppose the girl could have picked a different type of grappling that has more modesty such as judo or jiu-jitsu. But then if a girl wants to get better at that type of sport, she has to train with boys. Boys and girls are not the same, even if they happen to be in the same weight class. Which again supports the notion of segregated competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loupelou Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 First of all I would like to state that using a martial art as an example probably isn't the best one. There is a big difference, at least in my mind, between practicing a martial art and co-ed wrestling or football. We have 4 daughters who participate in karate. They all enjoy the competition. Tournaments are separated by belt and gender. I don't mind my girls practicing in their class with boys. My oldest daughter doesn't even have any other girls in her belt/age level. As another poster mentioned the contact is light and when they do practice "tournament" style they separate the same way they would at the actual tournament. As for the boys' feelings or emotions stating that they will have sexual thoughts is a bit of a blanket statement. It sounds as if you think all boys have only one thing on their mind and that they can't control themselves. I've known many more teenage girls who couldn't keep their hands off of the boys. As far as the martial arts being used as an example of boy/girl contact arousing gender role confusion- nothing could be further from the truth. The martial arts are about respect, both in class and out. Respect for authority, for belongings, for other people. I have met the most respectful and courteous youth and adult men through my contact with this sport. Now as far as I am concerned, wrestling is a whole other story. The kind of contact that is initiated in a match is way too much for boy/girl match-ups. Let the men discuss touching each other:D! I personally wrestled as a student in junior high. I can't believe now that my parents were fine with it. I would never let my daughters do that. I was going through a "rebellious" period I guess. I figured I could do anything the boys could do, and I did. I know now that I can do anything the "boys" can do, but I don't need to. We don't wrestle or rough house in our home simply because I don't think it is appropriate ever. So maybe I'm a little hard nosed.:001_smile: There are plenty of outlets for youthful excitement than a sanctioned knock down dragout! I always go back to something my husband mentioned one time after a long day at work - "Why do women want to hang out with men anyway? Men can be so disgusting!";) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I think wrestling is not appropriate between girls and boys. I did it in our neighborhood in about 5th grade all the time. I didn't know exactly what I was feeling then, but it was, in hindsight, clearly sexual. Karate is another matter. The sparring there isn't that same kind of contact. I don't think "violence" in sports played between men and women teaches males to be violent toward women outside of sparring in any way, shape, or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terabith Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I'm pretty liberal. Socially, not as much theologically. But here are my thoughts on the matter. I hope my kiddos participate in martial arts. My husband has done it, and I was involved for several years in college, and it is so empowering. I think it's great for boys, and for girls. The focus is on skill and technique; brute strength is not really (usually) the dominant criteria. I would not be comfortable with my kids (boys or girls) doing full contact sparring as kids. Technique/ point/ or soft contact sparring is customary with kids. Once they are fifteen or so, then they can decide whether or not they want to be involved in full contact sparring. That is often split by gender. However, I would NOT be cool with my daughters doing wrestling. Wrestling is physically intimate in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable about in a coeducational environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Although wrestling girls is a real problem, I think they should be allowed to wrestle and treated with the same respect as any other opponent. My 10 yo son wrestles, and sometimes he has to wrestle girls. If he refuses, he loses automatically. If you wrestle, you know that losing is not an option. When my son, or any other good wrestler, wrestles a boy or girl, he is out to break their will by intimidating them, which includes inflicting pain. The moment that the match is over, win or lose, he shakes their hand, tells them "good match" and then shakes their coach's hand. He needs to have respect for his opponent as a human being regardless of the opponent's gender. There is no respect while the match is going on, and total respect once it is over. I don't see respect of women as an issue. BTW, Although strength is an advantage, the strongest wrestler often doesn't win. The wrestler with the strongest mind usually wins. That's why girls can sometimes compete. IMO the problems are the following: 1. It seems to me from my experience, that as the boys get older, the girls begin to get injured more easily. I don't know for sure if this is true, but it seems like it. 2. Some boys are squeemish about treating the girl as an opponent. That's probably something that they just need to learn to deal with. I mean, sometimes you have to wrestle guys with one leg or mentally handicapped wrestlers. 3. There are moves in wrestling that, when performed on girls, are just plain uncomfortable for the participants and spectators alike. I have seen fathers of girl wrestlers become irate over them. These fathers need to take their girls elsewhere. The reason that girls should be allowed to wrestle boys is because wrestling is such a great sport that it is unfair to say to another human being that they can't wrestle just because they are a girl. If you don't know someone who wrestles, you have no idea what I am talking about. There are rare occasions where girls are capable of wrestling competitively with boys. But there are those occasions. If there are an adequate number of girl wrestlers, then there should be men's and women's divisions. Usually when there are enough women, they have their own division. As wrestlers mature, more and more the women are separated from men because there are more women and the women just can't compete with the mature men. Anyway, it is a difficult problem. Many of my friends disagree with me, but I just have to think of my daughters and ask myself "Do I really want to tell them 'I know you could beat that guy, but your a girl so go play with your dolls.'" None of my girls wrestle, nor will I encourage them to do so. I am a chauvinist and I would be afraid they would be hurt. I also prefer to see them behave as stereotypical little ladies. But the girls that I know who wrestle are really wonderful ladies. I don't want to tell them that they can't that is so healthy for them just because it makes others uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 None of my girls wrestle, nor will I encourage them to do so. I am a chauvinist and I would be afraid they would be hurt. Does it concern you that your son may hurt a young lady? How would you feel if he does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I just would like to add my opinion about the sexual nature of a boy wrestling a girl in the sport of wrestling: I don't believe that any boy finds this sexual: Imagine you are a boy in the following senario: You are dressed in an uncomfortable, skin-tight wrestling singlet pulled taught between your legs, revealing everything about your manhood to hundreds of spectators. You walk out alone to the center of a 28 ft circle. A similarly dressed opponent, of similar size faces you, intending to put you in extreme discomfort and to humiliate you before all these people. You may or may not notice that she is a girl. Her hair will likely be tucked under her headgear and she will be wearing an extra body suit beneath her singlet. Your coach is yelling out last minute instructions. You have 2 minutes or less to prove that you are more manly than your opponent. Is that sexual? I have seen hundreds of boy vs girl matches and I have never seen anything sexual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Does it concern you that your son may hurt a young lady? How would you feel if he does? I'm not sure whether I should worry more about that, or that my daughter would be stopping any boy from reaching his potential for fear of hurting a lady. We host a monthly boffer tournament at our place and I've managed to win a few bouts because the guys weren't comfortable beating up on a girl. While no one would argue that I have no right to compete (and there aren't enough people to have a girls and guys tourney) I'm hoping to back out of it as soon as I can. But I'm only doing it as a show of participation, not because I especially want to. Rosie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Does it concern you that your son may hurt a young lady? How would you feel if he does? No. No more than I am concerned that my son would injur a young man. Wrestling is far safer than soccer, football, or biking. In five years, my son has never been injured. Most injuries occur in practice when a larger kid wrestling someone else accidently rolls over a smaller kid. Also understand that in wrestling, you wrestle an opponent of similar size and age. BTW: Hurt and injury are two different things in wrestling. Hurt is an everyday, nearly every moment, occurance in wrestling. Some wreslters wear shirts that say "Pain is weakness leaving the body." This is one reason that wrestling builds character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I just would like to add my opinion about the sexual nature of a boy wrestling a girl in the sport of wrestling: I don't believe that any boy finds this sexual: Imagine you are a boy in the following senario: You are dressed in an uncomfortable, skin-tight wrestling singlet pulled taught between your legs, revealing everything about your manhood to hundreds of spectators. You walk out alone to the center of a 28 ft circle. A similarly dressed opponent, of similar size faces you, intending to put you in extreme discomfort and to humiliate you before all these people. You may or may not notice that she is a girl. Her hair will likely be tucked under her headgear and she will be wearing an extra body suit beneath her singlet. Your coach is yelling out last minute instructions. You have 2 minutes or less to prove that you are more manly than your opponent. Is that sexual? I have seen hundreds of boy vs girl matches and I have never seen anything sexual. Not sexual but inappropriate between boy and girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I'm not sure whether I should worry more about that, or that my daughter would be stopping any boy from reaching his potential for fear of hurting a lady. We host a monthly boffer tournament at our place and I've managed to win a few bouts because the guys weren't comfortable beating up on a girl. While no one would argue that I have no right to compete (and there aren't enough people to have a girls and guys tourney) I'm hoping to back out of it as soon as I can. But I'm only doing it as a show of participation, not because I especially want to. Rosie What's a boffer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherE Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I guess I think the root of the issue is that males and females are different, and because of that fact they should be treated differently. Please notice I said "different", not "better" "worse" "inferior" "more worthy" on and on. I also realize that there are many folks who disagree with this statement: males and females are different. But if the difference is one sex is able to compete in a sport and one is not, then one does become "more worthy". I don't disagree that males and females are different, I'm really not sure the argument is that they are the same. But if a girl wants to compete, and is prepared to take the risk of injury, it is patronizing to say "We don't want to let you play because boys are put in this world to protect you." Like a girl isn't smart enough to understand the risks of competing. And wrapping it up in the package that it is in her own best interests because it will teach boys to be violent against women seems silly to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I'm supposed to just sit on the sidelines and allow some kid to grab my dd in certain areas of her body? I'm supposed to teach her this is okay because it is being done in front of a crowd on a mat? Not in this house!!! I don't think anyone is suggesting that you teach your daughters that it is ok. I believe the issue is whether you tolerate others who teach their daughters that it is ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Reading the "Is it Worse" thread about boys and girls playing sports and how they treat each other made me think of John Piper's recent article in World magazine. http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1664_Over_My_Dead_Body_Son/ What do you think? :bigear: ETA: I don't know if this came up already. I don't come here every day! My son doesn't want to spar a woman in martial arts. It has nothing to do with feeling intimidated or about feeling worried she might win. He doesn't want to fight a woman, he doesn't want to touch a woman (other than his wife), and he doesn't want to hurt a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Not sexual but inappropriate between boy and girl. We disagree about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Conflicting thougths... I suppose the girl could have picked a different type of grappling that has more modesty such as judo or jiu-jitsu. In Jiu-jitsu and judo (closely related), one opponent while on her back takes the other between her legs while he struggles to free himself by, among other techniques, forcing his knee up between her legs or driving his elbow into her inner thigh close to her groin, or just laying his weight on her and driving forward. This is far more of a problem for me than wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 As for the boys' feelings or emotions stating that they will have sexual thoughts is a bit of a blanket statement. It sounds as if you think all boys have only one thing on their mind and that they can't control themselves. I've known many more teenage girls who couldn't keep their hands off of the boys. Actually now that a few people have mentioned it yes, I can see where it could be sexually arousing for the girl as well and once again I can't see where it would be a good thing for a girl to connect arousal with physcial aggresiveness either. And no, I do not think that teens of either sex can control and handle sexual feelings. That is not something you are born knowing. You have to be taught. And while I am sure we all teach our younger children these things IMO it is only theoretical to them before puberty. They have yet to feel the full impact of hormones and learn to graple with them. On the other hand, I could care less about emasculating men. My primary concern is the sexual element and connecting it to physical aggresiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Although wrestling girls is a real problem, Anyway, it is a difficult problem. Many of my friends disagree with me, but I just have to think of my daughters and ask myself "Do I really want to tell them 'I know you could beat that guy, but your a girl so go play with your dolls.'" I guess I don't understand what you think the problem is? I think we can help our daughters find sports where they can show their strength and ability and courage without having their entire bodies entwined with a man. Just because my daughters aren't wrestling with men doesn't mean they are holed up in their rooms and forced to "play with dolls". As far as the sexual thing. There is absolutely no other time in a man's life when he has full body contact with a woman except when they are_________________. As John Piper wrote in his article, if I'm labeled a "prude" so be it. I'm also the mom who teaches her daughter that her navel is to be seen by her parents, her sister, her doctor and her future husband only. Isn't that a laugh :D nowadays! But, I'm glad you joined the discussion. As you know Piper was writing to the dads who allow their boys who wrestle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 In Jiu-jitsu and judo (closely related), one opponent while on her back takes the other between her legs while he struggles to free himself by, among other techniques, forcing his knee up between her legs or driving his elbow into her inner thigh close to her groin, or just laying his weight on her and driving forward. This is far more of a problem for me than wrestling. Um yeah, I would have a problem with this as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 In Jiu-jitsu and judo (closely related), one opponent while on her back takes the other between her legs while he struggles to free himself by, among other techniques, forcing his knee up between her legs or driving his elbow into her inner thigh close to her groin, or just laying his weight on her and driving forward. This is far more of a problem for me than wrestling. Ahhhh but they don't do it in singlets. :D I get uncomfortable watching men wrestle. And you pointed out that wrestling has moves that are hard to swallow. I am not against wrestling for women or coed training. I am for segregated competition. I can sympathize with the girl for not having competitors as I have faced this myself but I wouldn't dream of imposing on the men's division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 We disagree about this. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) I guess I don't understand what you think the problem is? I listed my problems with it earlier in this topic. I have the same problems with it as everyone else. It makes me feel uncomfortable. I would prefer that women didn't wrestle. However, because I realize that others think differently, I don't want the right to demand that women don't wrestle, because I don't want them to have the right to demand that my kids can't do something that is otherwise healthy and harmless. I think we can help our daughters find sports where they can show their strength and ability and courage without having their entire bodies entwined with a man. Why should you decide what sport others choose? As far as the sexual thing. There is absolutely no other time in a man's life when he has full body contact with a woman except when they are_________________. Ballroom dancing? As John Piper wrote in his article, if I'm labeled a "prude" so be it. I respect you for being a prude. I hope my daughters are the same. But I don't want you to decide for them. p.s. Please understand this is just a friendly argument and I don't mean to offend anyone in anyway. Edited June 4, 2009 by Jorsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 What's a boffer? American style boffers are weapons made from pvc piping covered with pool noodle, bits of foam for extra padding if needed and wrapped in duct tape. Perfect for a bit of back yard sparing :) Rosie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 In my dd's martial arts classes, sometimes she does judo or sparring with another girl or woman..sometimes with a boy or adult male. I tell her that it is important to work with the guys, as if a "murderous thug" does grab her someday (and she needs to call on those martial arts skills) odds are it won't be a FEMALE thug!!!! The instructors are very attentive at making sure everyone in class helps everyone else be the best they can be. A higher belt male may well have to help teach a lower belt female (or male) how to get out of a hold or toss him...later in the same class he will be paired with another adult male of equal or higher skills and then he can work on HIS skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs.MacGyver Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Well a bit of my background first... DH has wrestled his whole life and has also coached wrestling to kids from 4 years old all the way up to grown men. There have been a few times that he has coached girls at the high school age level. I am a HUGE fan and supporter of the sport of wrestling. It instills discipline in a person like no other sport - IMO. The first time we encountered girls wrestling was many years ago in Hawaii. The girls wrestled other girls at meets and tournaments; however, there were not enough girls at each school at the same weight to practice with. These girls practiced with the boys. When we moved back to the mainland, DH coached in many different states. Most places do not have enough girls, and if they want to wrestle, they must do so against boys. The places that DH coached were never allowed to turn away a girl, but they did sit her down with her parents and explain EXPLICITLY what she was getting herself into, and then it was up to them to decide. As far as the boys go, and the parents of the boys - I have never seen a boy refuse to wrestle a girl (I am sure it happens - and that is absolutely the prerogative of that boy and his parents). However, most of the time we have noticed that since encountering girls on the mat is more commonplace these days, it doesn't seem to change anything. The boy is out there to wrestle an opponent, not a person - and that is what the coaches instill in them for EVERY opponent. I have NEVER seen or even heard anything sexual from the boys (and we have heard all of the wrestling room and locker room talk). It seems to me that if the girls take the sport seriously, they are viewed, in most cases, with respect as a competitor. Wrestling is an up and coming sport for women. There are college scholarships, Olympic teams, and there are even women on the Armed Forces wrestling teams (in all of these cases the women wrestle other women). It is getting easier and easier for young girls to find other girls to compete against. I believe that it will not be long before the girls will have their own place in the wrestling room and not have to be in with the boys, but until that happens.... Now, would we let our DD - 10 wrestle? It would be a little tough for us because we are conservative with our children, but if she were "serious" about it (which she is totally not interested at all), we would let her and encourage her to follow her dreams- and if she had to wrestle boys here and there - fine. I KNOW that this is not for everyone. I completely understand this. I don't have a problem with people not allowing their boys to wrestle girls, and I don't have a problem with people disliking even the thought of boys and girls wrestling each other. But, in no way would I want anyone taking away the rights of a girl who loves the sport. Just my 2 cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Although wrestling girls is a real problem, I think they should be allowed to wrestle and treated with the same respect as any other opponent. My 10 yo son wrestles, and sometimes he has to wrestle girls. If he refuses, he loses automatically. If you wrestle, you know that losing is not an option. When my son, or any other good wrestler, wrestles a boy or girl, he is out to break their will by intimidating them, which includes inflicting pain. The moment that the match is over, win or lose, he shakes their hand, tells them "good match" and then shakes their coach's hand. He needs to have respect for his opponent as a human being regardless of the opponent's gender. There is no respect while the match is going on, and total respect once it is over. I don't see respect of women as an issue. BTW, Although strength is an advantage, the strongest wrestler often doesn't win. The wrestler with the strongest mind usually wins. That's why girls can sometimes compete. IMO the problems are the following: 1. It seems to me from my experience, that as the boys get older, the girls begin to get injured more easily. I don't know for sure if this is true, but it seems like it. 2. Some boys are squeemish about treating the girl as an opponent. That's probably something that they just need to learn to deal with. I mean, sometimes you have to wrestle guys with one leg or mentally handicapped wrestlers. 3. There are moves in wrestling that, when performed on girls, are just plain uncomfortable for the participants and spectators alike. I have seen fathers of girl wrestlers become irate over them. These fathers need to take their girls elsewhere. The reason that girls should be allowed to wrestle boys is because wrestling is such a great sport that it is unfair to say to another human being that they can't wrestle just because they are a girl. If you don't know someone who wrestles, you have no idea what I am talking about. There are rare occasions where girls are capable of wrestling competitively with boys. But there are those occasions. If there are an adequate number of girl wrestlers, then there should be men's and women's divisions. Usually when there are enough women, they have their own division. As wrestlers mature, more and more the women are separated from men because there are more women and the women just can't compete with the mature men. Anyway, it is a difficult problem. Many of my friends disagree with me, but I just have to think of my daughters and ask myself "Do I really want to tell them 'I know you could beat that guy, but your a girl so go play with your dolls.'" None of my girls wrestle, nor will I encourage them to do so. I am a chauvinist and I would be afraid they would be hurt. I also prefer to see them behave as stereotypical little ladies. But the girls that I know who wrestle are really wonderful ladies. I don't want to tell them that they can't that is so healthy for them just because it makes others uncomfortable. And the girls that can and want to should definitely be allowed to. It's not as though people are forcing this girl to wrestle, it was her choice. Like the ladies in Marine Corps and the girls that attend military schools, it's not for everyone, but they worked darn hard to get where they are and they deserve to be treated as equals, they have already proven themselves. How dare anyone try to take that from them, by ignoring their accomplishments thus far and relegating them to the position of "weaker sex." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 :iagree: So you wouldn't let your son run on a cross country team if he trained and was timed against women? You wouldn't let your son train in tennis if girls also trained there and sometimes hit against boys? I would not let my son wrestle a girl. It just wouldn't seem right. But not competing at all seems silly. There are girls who are smaller and weaker than my sons who can beat them in swimming and tennis. You want to know why? Because they are BETTER. They trained harder and smarter and have more experience and it shows. I think my boys benefit from finding that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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