What is the benefit in assigning laziness as a cause for difficulties? What *good* does that do?

Have you read the ADHD thread? Can you see that the whole first paragraph here is ADHD/executive function related? You mentioned that you know she has executive function issues; well, that's a lot of what is going on here. Several people have mentioned sensory issues as well: fiddling with and chewing on the cord, wearing the same favorite comfortable clothes. You also say she's having trouble making friends. Has she had evaluations? There may be more going on here than meets the eye. And yet, I have to say, she sounds like a lovely girl. She's not materialistic. She isn't focused on what others think of her. You say that other people speak highly of her. So, I'd just focus on appreciating her as the lovely girl she is. Don't buy her expensive stuff she doesn't care about. Help her learn scaffolding techniques for ADHD, and refer to the aforementioned thread for a discussion about the pros and cons of medication. Get her some fidgets and chewelry. Talk to her and see how she feels about all this. I'd let the concerns about looking good to others go.

I think this has been a really interesting thread, with some intriguing things discussed. On the point you made above, OP: On the one hand, one can posit a brain difference causing a behavioral difference. Both are physical, cause and effect. They are measurable and observable. On the other hand, one can posit a character flaw causing a behavioral difference, or in your formulation above, causing a brain difference. The effect is physical, measurable and observable. But what is the cause? What *is* a character flaw? I'm not willing, personally, to attribute an observed physical trait to something as nebulous as a character flaw. Obviously opinions will differ here ;-).

This gets very close to the point I'd like to make. I've seen a few places in this thread where mental illness is contrasted with physical illnesses. I would like to point out that mental illnesses *are* physical. They are just as physical as, say, pneumonia. The fact that they operate on the chemical level and in the brain, and hence are harder to observe than pneumonia, does not alter that physical nature. I would not classify ADHD as a mental illness. Like mental illnesses, though, I'd say it has a physical cause, and treating it =/= giving in to laziness. The fact that one can, by extreme effort, overcome its effects does not mean that the original cause is not physical. My daughter has a cold today, but because of obligations at school, forced herself to carry on and attend. Attending when sick requires an extreme effort which can be maintained for some time, but not indefinitely. Medicating her would not be giving in to weakness. The same is true for ADHD.

I hope the psychiatrist was able to help. I know there are better days ahead for you; I'll be thinking of you.

Sending hugs and good thoughts.

Thinking of you and hoping today goes better.

Harrison Bergeron? ETA probably not: This is a much shorter story than I remembered.

Yes, government support does become the next question, doesn't it? One thing I haven't gotten around to exploring, but should, is whether a kid can be "classified" as disabled by the Social Security administration without needing to qualify for financial assistance *right now*. I know that our present income means that she can't get any financial support, Medicaid coverage, etc. But I need to see if she can get "labeled" as disabled in order to make the process of qualifying for help easier when she is an adult. The doctor who diagnosed her said she thought the disability was significant enough to warrant that, but the Social Security people I spoke with on the phone were discouraging. That may be their job, lol. I need to go through the in-person appointment, cumbersome as it is, to find out more, I think. Has anyone else done this?

These farms look really good. I could see a situation like that working for dd. Eta: But my gosh, the cost! Upwards of $60,000 per year for one of them, for up to nine years?!?! Ouch. Not that it might go very far, but I wonder if a 529 account could cover something like that.

What a great thread idea! This is something I've been thinking about a lot. In our case, dd is diagnosed with ASD2, anxiety, depression that seems to come and go, and possibly (probably) a mood disorder. Her IQ tests in the low average range. She struggles with emotional regulation, energy levels that vary from almost manic when she's excited or silly to very lethargic when she's doing a non-preferred task, and generally low motivation for anything outside her preferred interests. She has a special interest which could lead to a field of employment, but I'm not sure she has either the emotional stability to handle the work or the intellectual ability to qualify for more than entry-level work. That entry-level work would probably not be enough to support her. At the moment all I really know is that I don't know enough. She looks much more neurotypical than she actually is. And, I am so accustomed to working with her that I forget how much I am helping her and compensating for her weaknesses. I am certain that I want her established somewhere sustainable outside our home by her mid-twenties. I've watched an adult relative who probably could get some sort of diagnosis flounder after his parents died. He had lived with them almost all his life. I want to help her make that transition while I *can* help her, kwim? I really need to start actively investigating this.

I think this is not really a problem about a wedding. It's really a problem about expectations, communication, and especially boundaries and maturity. The boundaries-and-maturity issue is just hiding out in the underbrush of the wedding forest. If I were advising the young couple, I'd (kindly, gently, but clearly) point this out. Getting married is an adult activity. They may not be accustomed to assuming the roles of full adults in interactions with their parents, but it is time to start. "Sweetness" isn't a positive trait if it means they can't enforce reasonable limits. They have financial limits and responsibilities, and handling those well is a good start to a mature life together. They can be kind to their parents, and polite, and sympathize that the wedding the parents would like is not possible, while still firmly holding their own, affordable, reasonable boundaries. If they aren't able to do this, I'd be concerned about their readiness to handle other issues which the future will bring soon enough.

Wendy, I am in awe of what you are managing to do. Your reasons for not putting any of the kids in school make perfect sense. All I can say, then, is that I hope you can find some real help and respite. We went through years of similar difficulties with car rides and oppositional behavior. It has gotten much, much better with time and some maturity. I hope that happens for you too, though I can remember feeling like that distant hope was no help at all. I wish I could offer more than an internet hug, but I think you are doing a fantastic job.

I hear you. I'm not where you are ATM, but... I can relate. I wish I could offer some in-person help, but I'm sending virtual hugs for lack of anything better. You have such a huge job. Are you really fully persuaded that homeschooling is best? If so, I wouldn't begin to argue. You know your own situation. But, really, what you are trying to do is enough to keep several people busy. Could this feeling be the indicator that you need help? What alternatives exist? Edited to remove quote: didn't mean to include that.

Antique stores could sell it as a set, not melted down. There are some lovely old patterns with beautiful workmanship. It seems like such a shame for it to be destroyed. I don't know how the price compares for sure, but after a relative's silver was stolen I got the impression that melt value was lower, but the thief had probably done that to avoid being traced. I know there used to be a shop near here which specialized in sets of old silver. Prices varied, of course, but were often a few thousand dollars. This was years ago, though.

This situation makes me so sad for you. I've watched two family homes that I would have loved to buy and live in be sold because it was financially necessary in some fashion. It hurts, and it can't ever really be fixed, especially if the house will be torn down. However, sometimes the necessity is real. My only advice would be to think very carefully, trying to separate logic from emotion as much as you can. It sounds as if you'd like to get the house if the work you envision could be done immediately. But, would you want to get the house, paying top price so the whole family is satisfied, if that meant postponing the work for some years until you could afford it? Do you want it that much? Or one other possible (probably very difficult) way to approach the situation might be to look at the house, at a lower price, and your MIL's care as a unit. I don't begin to know how this would work for you and her and the suitability of her house for elder care, and I've done enough elder care to understand what a huge undertaking it is. But I think I remember discussions of your MIL's situation, if I'm not mistaken. Is she moving between all the siblings' homes for a month at a time, or some such arrangement? That sounds fraught with all sorts of difficulties for her and everyone else. Could she stay at her own home if you all were there with her, and in consideration of your work there, might the siblings look at the price of the home differently?

I have nothing helpful to add, but I'm so sorry your daughter is going through this. It sounds so scary and miserable for her and all of you. I'm thinking of you and hoping for a good resolution soon.

I don't have as many kids as you, but I do have two. The sort of over-the-top silliness and lack of regulation you describe is absolutely characteristic of one of them. She *can not* control that once she gets giddy and excited. Or, actually: she *could* not. ABA has helped enormously, plus some age and maturity. But I recognize the sort of scene you're describing. One gets out of control, the other gets angry/excited/resentful/indignant and responds in an over-the-top way, and the whole thing spirals out of control very quickly. Btdt. You can make the same dynamic work in your favor. Watch for *any* good behavior, name it, praise it, and reward it. Be dramatic. Ice cream and candy have been transformational for us (always making sure they don't have artificial colors which cause big trouble here). Get them paying attention to the fact that their sibling just got rewarded for sitting quietly for five minutes. Use rewards carefully but liberally. One of the most enlightening things I've ever seen is the row of dog pens at our local humane society. It used to be pandemonium any time someone walked by. Now, the dogs all sit quietly and oh-so-attentively at the front of their pens. Understand, these are new dogs all the time, but they catch on fast. On the front of each pen is a bucket of dog biscuits and a sign: "Please reward me when I am quiet." It works. It sounds like an insulting comparison, and I don't mean it that way at all. Behavioral principles are the same with dogs and kids. Insofar as possible, don't reward bad behavior with attention. Attention really is a reward. If the kids have you upset, they're getting that attention, and it's a reward. Stay calm, and give better rewards for good behavior. And when you have several kids, they can learn by example. Let them see that calmness and cooperation get rewarded.

Kbutton, thanks for this. So, do you start talking with your evaluator fairly early in the year, in order to find out what they think before you're done and committed for the year? Maybe this isn't relevant, if you've used the same evaluator for several years.

Agree. This is important. You know there are issues. You need support. It is almost certainly available near you. And, you need to know just what issues you're dealing with. Once you have those answers, the path starts to become clearer. What, exactly, is your dh's objection to evaluations? ETA: Hugs, too; please don't read what I wrote above as being said harshly. A lot of us have had to overcome resistance to evaluations, either our own resistance or a husband's. It can be hard to accept the need. But this is how life starts to change and get better. If your dh has specific concerns about evaluations or a diagnosis, maybe we can help you figure out how to address them. Best wishes.

I think you're right, and I'm just going to need to talk to the evaluator. It's just very vague. "Adequate yearly progress" is so completely dependent on the individual child and the standards of the individual evaluator. The vagueness has very positive aspects, as you cite, but it it very hard to know just what is required to meet that standard.

Yes, that has been my concern precisely. If she were in school, there would be no problem as long as everyone is working and progress is gradually being made. And, hopefully, that's how it would work with a homeschool evaluation too. I guess I was just looking for reassurance from someone who has done this, because I'm really not interested in going through the process of having someone else come up with an education plan for me to follow. I'm satisfied with our materials, and I think we're making the best progress we can. I just hope that would be apparent to an evaluator, and I'm wondering if there really is value in starting the process at this time of year.

Yes, that all sounds so reasonable when you say it! :-) I ought to give these people a call and see what's actually involved. I did get in touch last spring, but the idea paying for a basic consultation to know how the system worked put me off, and then as it turned out she passed the testing. Thanks so much. If anyone else has had experience with going the evaluation route, I'd be curious about your experiences.

Thanks, Lecka. I guess my worry is just that by establishing goals in a formal way ahead of time, we're setting ourselves up for failure if we can't meet them. When we had an ISP with the school one year (like an IEP but for homeschoolers), it was utterly unrealistic. To the school, it looked reasonable. But they didn't sit and try to work with my dd. For her, it turned out to be unreasonable, even though I had signed off on it because I had thought it was workable. My fear is of getting into that sort of situation, or into one where we have to meet and check progress regularly or something. We have enough appointments already. We actually work very diligently, but it's like trying to swim through molasses or something. If evaluators say insufficient progress has been made, what actually happens? I know from a state-regulation perspective there is a year of homeschooling probation, but maybe if the evaluation is done by a certain time, the evaluator gives you a chance to fix things? I really don't want to get put on academic probation, lol. But that ends up being the same must-meet-yearly-standards worry we already have. I used to think that if we just had a real diagnosis, all these worries would go away. I see people online saying things like "if you have this diagnosis, forget about meeting goals on a normal time schedule," and I used to think what a relief it would be to not have to worry about that. To just say, instead, "we'll work steadily and diligently and accept that this is where we are." But here we are, with a diagnosis, and still worrying about meeting standards. I'm not sure how to just relax. Obviously, we will work hard regardless. But it's hard to know what will be accepted as enough. Maybe it would be worth paying for a planning session to figure some of this out.

So many hugs. I've had those moments, too. Hugs to Tap, as well.