Hugs for all of you. I will be thinking of you.

Okay, CLE sounds like it might be the way to go. I'll try to get her to try the placement test tomorrow. Still interested if anyone else has comments, though.

The conceptual thinking could be an issue, lol, but she did all right with Saxon's explanations in the primary books.

Yes, I guess it's the Adaptations workbooks I was thinking of. It seems to be a choice between those and CLE, as far as I can tell. I looked at the Adaptations samples a couple of years ago when I last debated this question. I think the hints are good. Have you used those, Tiramisu?

Maybe I need to try CLE. Right now we're pulling a lot from an old copy of Defeating Division, though, which is also very clean and white with lots of extra space for writing. The space is great, but dd still can't get through very much in sheer number of problems. I guess I just need to make peace with that fact and pick something and keep plugging along.

Okay, rather than hijacking the other thread I'll start one. Dd11 used Saxon for 2nd and 3rd grades, but it was not a complete success. That's partly dryly humorous understatement, because the torn worksheets and tears were quite spectacular. But it's also an accurate description, because in lots of ways Saxon was a good fit. The small chunks of new information and constant review were perfect. The fact that she didn't need to copy problems out of a textbook was good. The pages didn't bother her visually, except that she could see that there was ssooooo mmuuuuch to ddoooo! We've been trying to manage since then by piecing together different things, and that approach is draining me dry. I need a math curriculum, but what? I have looked at CLE, and it appears to have lessons which are several pages long. There is no way she will do that much in a day. Of course, I could spread them out over several days and accept slower progress. Is there any reason people prefer CLE over Saxon other than the fact that the pages look less cluttered? I could go with the newer Saxon books for the middle grades which are supposed to be geared for slower learners. Anyone have experience with those? Are there other spiral programs I'm overlooking? Thanks!

((Sherra)) I saw your post this morning. I want to respond and try to help you out, but my own background and ideas are so different I'm not sure how much help I can give. First, you clearly identify as a Christian, but just how close your beliefs are now to the way you were raised is not clear. What I'm understanding from your post is that you see that your children need to experience the world of literature and "pretend", but that world still troubles you because of your upbringing. So, essentially, your logical mind sees the need, but you're still uncomfortable. Have I understood correctly? As I said, my background is different, and you may feel I am not the right person to help you. I was raised in a mainstream Protestant church and educated in parochial schools. I suppose I identify more as an agnostic now than anything else. But... Growing up, as a Christian child in Christian schools, I experienced literature as perhaps the greatest joy of my life. No one ever, thank goodness, suggested that pretend things were bad. I think my elementary teachers in a church school would have pointed to the parables as an example of stories told with a purpose. But other sorts of stories are fine too. The God I was taught to know was a loving and ultimately joyful God. Just as exploring his creation was a joyful and worshipful experience, so also exploring the talents he gave us, from mechanical talents to intellectual talents to artistic talents *including the writing of fiction*, was a joyful and worshipful experience. In fact, isn't using our talents well considered a responsibility? Reading, writing, thinking, all are ways of using these gifts. Fiction can be uncomfortable in many ways and for many reasons, but that doesn't make it bad or dangerous. I would suggest that if stories like "Thomas the Tank Engine" seem too intense, perhaps you are still struggling with the fact that the world does include bad things. My knowledge of the sort of religious background you've described is limited, so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding. Did your church suggest that by following a careful path through life you could avoid bad things? I don't believe any of us, however devout, however careful, can avoid normal or sometimes even extraordinarily awful things happening in our lives. Things happen. In Christian terms, original sin exists. One function of stories is to talk about the fact that awful things do happen. We can't always control them. We can control our own responses to them. One normal part of childhood is learning all this, and stories can help. Fairy tales have functioned in this way for centuries, probably millennia. Yes, they involve witches and magic, but I wouldn't worry about that or take them too seriously. They are devices in the story, a means to an end, which is to help children (and adults) learn that bad things happen but people are resilient. Fairy tales, and witches, and magic can also be a lot of fun, and make for a rollicking good story. I think the God I was taught to know appreciates fun, and humor, and laughter, and shivers of apprehension which give way to a satisfying conclusion. I do not believe He is threatened by a fairy-tale witch. If you were denied the chance to experience all this as a child, I'm not surprised that fiction worries you. Do you have a minister now who sees the world in a different way from that in which you were raised? Would it help to talk over the whole matter with him or her? I would also suggest counselling, with a qualified counsellor, if you are open to that. So much anxiety over stories suggests that you haven't yet come to terms with many things which are ordinarily part of the growing-up process. Your childhood church harmed you in this way. I have great respect for the fact that in spite of your discomfort you are trying to do better for your children. Counselling for you can help you "catch up" on this emotional development you may have missed. When you feel ready to read some more fiction, perhaps talking it over with someone you trust would help. I would suggest, instead of Disney and superheroes, read fairy tales in their original versions. Read Grimm and Hans Christian Anderson. Read Uncle Remus, Anansi, and trickster tales. Read tall tales and folk tales. If you're going to expose your children to literature, give them the good stuff, not commercialized, watered-down versions (although those are far better than nothing). Talk about all these with your trusted advisor, and see if you can figure out what the value of each story is. Realize that they may make you anxious, and try to figure out why. Remember we gain strength by confronting bad things in stories, where they can't really hurt us, before we have to confront them in earnest. And remember that it's also valuable to read just for fun and laughter. Before you read any of these, though, read C. S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, all seven books, all the way through. See if that example of a devout Christian who found great value in stories helps you relax and find joy in them also.

That wood-look tile is gorgeous in the pictures, and I can see lots of potential benefits like easy cleaning. In our case I'm not really that focused on resale; we're (hopefully) here for the long haul. But I've just been through years of looking after elderly parents, many falls and trips to the emergency room, and the years of small kids racing through the house and falling aren't that distant either. So when I'm thinking about modifications to a house we're staying in, on the one hand smooth floors which are continuous between kitchen, dining room, bedrooms etc sound wonderfully accessible, but on the other hand the image of heads hitting ceramic floors is worrying me. I guess heads hitting wood floors don't do too well either, really, lol. For those of you who have lived with these floors, what did you think of the safety angle? Would you be comfortable with children and unsteady elders maneuvering on them?

I'm thinking we would do well to wait for summer for this project. Any way we work it, it sounds like several days to several weeks of work in the house, after the major effort of getting all the little stuff at least boxed up and out of the way. And it also sounds very dusty, dirty, and generally bad for dh in ways I hadn't entirely realized. Thanks to everyone for your stories and suggestions.

I'm so sorry. No medical advice, but try to take loving care of yourself.

Ugh, I hadn't even thought about VOCs and filters. Very good point, thanks. Sounds like I need to start talking to contractors.

Anne Elizabeth Anne Katherine And, don't I remember Diana Barry calling her daughter "small Anne Cordelia" in the Anne books?

Okay, so we're thinking of pulling up carpet which is over much of our house because of dh's allergies and chronic respiratory issues. It will need to be replaced with some sort of smooth, easily-cleaned flooring, so I'm watching the other thread with interest. The problem is we're living in the house, most of the flooring is affected, and I'm not sure how the logistics of this operation work. Do we have to essentially move out to accomplish this? How do people do this? Do you empty the house, put everything in storage, and stay in a hotel while the work is done over a few days? Do you somehow shift furniture from room to room and still stay in a hotel, because bedrooms aren't usable? Hire movers (please, no) or do flooring contractors expect to shift furniture? Any experience or advice?

Yeah, I've used gas in a previous house and loved it. Here it isn't an option. But I have to say, reading about induction, it sounds like it has similar flexibility. And I love the idea of a cool stovetop and spills that can be wiped up instead of burning on. Hmmm.

SporkUK, that's awful about the ABA you encountered. I agree not all therapy is good, and parents have to use judgement about what will be best for their kids. I just think knowledge is better than ignorance.

Why is it a big deal to be diagnosed now? Well, for some kids, I guess things can turn out fine without a diagnosis. Autism is a very wide spectrum, and I'm sure with other conditions there is also a wide variation in severity. But for other kids, every month lost can be critical. As already stated, time lost to develop language skills is time which can't always be easily recovered. Effects of one relatively minor problem can start to cascade as language isn't learned, social skills don't develop, frustrations build, emotional coping skills can't handle frustrations, family dynamics are affected, and friendships can't happen. I could write a book about the familial consequences of a child who can't handle her emotions, but I won't here. The earlier a diagnosis is made, the faster treatment can begin. For the children who need it, the importance of that cannot be overstated. For the children who would have done fine anyway, no harm is done by identification and treatment. In some states, including mine, state law does not require insurance companies to cover ABA therapy-- the gold standard, evidence-based therapy for autism-- if a child is diagnosed after they turn some legislated age: for us it was six. So if time passes and things get worse, and you finally decide you need help, it may be impossible to pay for it. ABA can easily cost tens of thousands of dollars each year. A diagnosis does no harm. A label does no harm. Your child will be just as loved, just as capable, have just as many opportunities with a label as without one. You can choose the people with whom you entrust this information. But a label will give you knowledge that you need to help your child. You can address problems early, before they cascade out of control. You can help your child reach his or her full potential. DawnM, please understand I'm trying to answer what I think was a genuine question on your part, not directing any anger toward you. I still have a lot of anger over how things have played out in our household, because I have experienced the harm of a late diagnosis in the devastation it has caused in our family. I'm holding my breath and hoping we've gotten to a better, stable place right now, but it's been hard. So I'm afraid that particular question brings out a vehement response, but it isn't personal. AFA the OP, it sounds like you're doing what you can. Provide support for the mom as she wrestles with this, be a sounding board and a kind friend, if possible offer to help her get to appointments, and be there when she's ready to accept help.

It's got to be better! Hope you're feeling better soon.

See, for me, it's the fact that I like my old pans. I'm probably heading for hoarder status. I've been using them for years, and I know which shape and size I like for everything. Some were my grandfather's, and some were my mother's, and some were dh's from before we were married. They give me warm fuzzy feelings. ;-) So, I just don't want to get new ones.

So for induction, the pans have to work on a magnetic surface, right? I'm not sure how many of mine would do. Some are old, but I like them. Have to think about that.

When we moved into our present house there was an old smooth topped stovetop which I hated, because it took forever to adjust temperatures. I figured, without really knowing, that the glass was essentially an insulator and slowed the transfer of heat to the units. Also, the information from the manufacturer, which the previous owners had helpfully left, said not to use it for canning. I like to can, so that was a problem. So eventually we replaced it with conventional coils. I like the way they heat and cool more rapidly, but unfortunately it's developed wiring problems and we need to replace it. Now it looks like the only exposed coils I see are essentially pretty low-end products. I'd like to get something good that I won't need to replace in the foreseeable future. Ease of cleaning is all well and good, but how do these new smooth-tops perform? Are they quick to heat and cool? Would someone who does a lot of cooking be happy with them? Does anyone have experience with these and care to comment? Also, what about canning (this question seems to baffle appliance salesmen)? If I could get gas, I would, but that's not an option. Thanks!

Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness

Fwiw, you're seeing a lot of behaviors similar to what we saw in younger dd. Ultimately we figured out that they often stemmed from anxiety (though she never looked like she was worried, she looked angry and defiant). Sometimes they happened after several things in a row went wrong: multiple small stressors which overtaxed her ability to cope. Behavior on our part which stressed her more or made her more anxious made things worse. Included in this category was the advice we got to shut her in her room, by force if need be, until her tantrums were over. Behavior on our part which helped was essentially giving her time to calm down and not feeding the behavior with demands, words, or attention in general. Lying on the living room floor having a fit instead of going to bed? Fine, lie on the floor and have a fit. We're here doing something else. Eventually she'd calm down and go to bed. It's not easy, and it's not a quick fix, and I couldn't have just ignored that behavior if the other things we'd been told to do hadn't failed so abysmally already. But lo and behold, ABA also relies on ignoring unwanted behaviors.

ASD or not, the best first recommendation I have is Ross Greene's The Explosive Child.

One more note: both my girls always made eye contact with all of us. It came as a real shock to be told dd11 wasn't making eye contact with others. I mean, I knew she was shy, but no eye contact in a clinically significant way? I didn't see it. And it wasn't until I was discussing dd11's diagnosis with her sister last year that dd13 said "But I don't like to make eye contact with people either."