Hmmm. You're thinking a treat after a bad appointment will reward the behavior? That makes sense. The BCBA was with me when we came up with the idea, but she may not have realized how bad it was likely to be. I can't talk about this stuff in front of dd or it causes a bad reaction. Technically, the treat afterwards was supposed to be a reward for doing other stuff last night. It's an activity dd has been looking forward to which couldn't be scheduled at an earlier time. It just fit into the schedule after the appointment today, and I figured it would give dd something else to think about-- ABA, (shot), ACTVITY! We've already had a big meltdown today. Maybe I can find something for a distraction in the office, but I don't want to reward the bad stuff. What a day. Thanks for the ideas, I appreciate the support and sounding board.

How awful, I'm so sorry! I would be talking to someone there later, after sorting out her immediate care.

Are shots a problem for your kids? Any tips on how to get through the ordeal? Dd can't have the mist because of respiratory issues. Last year was, I'll just say, difficult. She knows she's got to get the vaccination and is holding out hope that this year she can get the mist, and I've told her it is up to the doctor which she receives. If she knew it was certain to be a shot, she'd never consent to go. We have arranged to have ABA immediately before time to leave, so we'll walk out of the house with the BCBA. We have arranged a treat for immediately after the appointment. The office has been warned. Anything else we can do to make this better?

Regarding Ritalin: we tried it, and I think it did help, but I didn't continue giving it to dd because I was just too uneasy about the overall number of medications she's taking. That one seemed helpful but less essential than the others. I might change my mind about the cost/benefit analysis there at some point. I need to really study those top ten strategies. The problem we run into is one of timing, which Lecka describes very clearly, and compliance. It's so hard to keep dd's cooperation. Ultimately she is willing to go to much greater extremes of behavior to gain what she wants than I am to gain what I want. So, if she's in the yellow zone, and I suggest an activity to refocus or calm down, she is likely to refuse that and either shut down or defiantly go for a more preferred activity (in Lecka's example, the video game). So maybe I was wrong and she was really already in the red zone, even though she was just sitting quietly at the table? Or sometimes the mention of zones seems to get her upset. I think I need to do more conscious monitoring of zones all day long, and make sure I don't just associate them with bad behavior and turn them into a trigger. All this needs to be very conscious and purposeful and carefully implemented, and I've got enough ADHD tendencies myself that I find it really hard. I appreciate the chance to "listen in" as others are thinking it through.

Lecka, the "spoons" analogy bit describes what happens here a lot perfectly. It's usually not one big thing causing stress, it's a lot of little things that add up.

October. Or right now. If you go in the spring, prepare to be either in a small group which gets added to a school group going through a building or in a group squeezed into a time slot in between two school groups. BTDT. The interpreters do the best they can, but the school group numbers are overwhelming.

Our local paper usually runs a few articles about the candidates in the weeks before the election. I find that helpful in cases where I don't already know their records. It's a good reason to continue to subscribe, even though I get most news from other sources. They also cover local politics and civic affairs throughout the year. We always vote.

It sounds like you're doing a lot of good things, anyway! Sorry about the problems with the SLP and OT. It is hard to keep various people on the same page about which academic things need to get done. Our contact from the schools who oversees dd's ISP wants to see dd get up to grade level in math this year, and I'm just not sure that's ever happening, or is even very important. If that relationship becomes too troublesome I may see if I can sever it.

Thank you, I can understand that. Our issues are different, I think, from what you have, and our ABA is enjoyable for dd, generally. It all creates a different equation. Makes sense.

Lecka, I'm listening in here, and now I'm really curious. Can you tell me more about why ABA seems like a "big, heavy thing," and especially one that might not be entirely benign? What are the ethical considerations? We're doing it because it's what the neuropsych said we should do, but it hasn't been earthshakingly effective in any way. Now, we are just getting to add more hours. Maybe that will make a difference. Or maybe it isn't really what we need----??? We also have meds. We may need OT. Not trying to divert the thread, just very interested in what you mean here.

Hugs. I am right there with you; both of my parents died within the last year, and it is hard. Each birthday, each holiday, each milestone and anniversary is hard. I think older traditions of a lengthy period of mourning showed a lot of wisdom.

Prairiewindmomma, you are absolutely right about both the short lessons and the physical breaks. Usually dd walks her dog a few times each day. It may not be coincidence that we had a couple of lousy days when it was rainy. All of you who have said to just relax and have reasonable expectations and stop fretting are also right. Somehow the message has sunk in today. I let dd watch documentaries, we read a bit of history, she did a bit of math, we had ABA, and we had a good day. She took the dog out, and she saw a friend. It was good. Thanks for talking me down.

Some people live in a very comfortable world in which those assumptions about parenting have never had to be challenged. I would not base your opinions about how well you are doing on their naive ideas.

Seconding The Explosive Child and, if that doesn't seem to be enough, serious consideration of evaluations. The Strong-Willed Child was a disaster *for us*. Its premise, as I remember it, is the opposite of The Explosive Child. Ross Greene says in The Explosive Child that children do well if they can; if they are consistently having problems, that behavior is caused by lagging skill development. There is no sense in punishing a child because they do not have the skills they need. Instead, he shows you how to help them develop those skills. It's essentially like saying you wouldn't punish for dyslexia, you remediate instead. If I am remembering Dobson and The Strong-Willed Child correctly, his idea is that you need to demonstrate your own authority, with physical correction if necessary (please correct me if I'm wrong). But this assumes that the child does have the (actually very complex) skills to be able to behave as we want them to, and that is not always the case. We listened to bad advice and tried Dobson. We also went to a therapist who did not have the knowledge or experience to suggest neuropsych evaluations. She diagnosed our dd with ODD. Long story short and years later, we got a valid, helpful diagnosis of autism from a neuropsych. But long before we got that diagnosis we'd tossed out Dobson and used Greene, because Dobson's approach made things much worse and Greene's approach helped. You can't punish missing skills into existence, and you can't tell what's at the root of a child's problems without a competent evaluation. (Minniewannabe: please forgive my fairly strongly-worded response to Dobson. I know that for another child, his methods might work. But they were so disastrous for us that, where there's a suspicion of a real diagnosable issue, he's a bit of a trigger for me. Nothing personal. :-). ) And, final note: problems are scary. But I wouldn't be scared of a label. Labels tell us how to make things better. I would be scared of a problem that isn't correctly labeled and thus isn't correctly treated. Trust me, that is worse.

Yes, kbutton, I wouldn't mind the rereading if she were just a little more willing to add a few new things to the mix! :lol: :lol: I loved (still do) rereading favorites too.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: That sounds very hard.

Okay, a few more thoughts and questions. OhE, did the OT do the neurofeedback and Therapeutic Listening? I'm glad we have that appointment next week, that may be important. Private reading is on grade level, as long as you're not picky about whether she can actually pronounce names of characters and places so that anyone else will recognize them. Familiar words she gets, but not new things she needs to sound out. Her pleasure reading is also limited and repetitive. She's going through Harry Potter and the Warriers books for the umpteenth time. For me, though, she's read Because of Winn Dixie and Shiloh, and has started Julie of the Wolves. Working memory and processing speed are ok, and the CTOPP was average. I have wondered about tracking problems, and may get to a COVD screening, but given what I know about the rigors of vision therapy and her frustration tolerance, that's not an avenue I've gone down yet. The thing about reading is, it doesn't matter except socially if she doesn't pronounce the names of Harry Potter characters properly because she wouldn't slow down and figure them out. (Though social things are really a big deal, especially for a kid with ASD.) But then you get to history and science content and over the long term, if not right now, I feel like she needs to be able to deal with the terminology she comes across. But I don't know what her life will hold, in terms of future education. You're probably right that we'll see who she'll be more clearly in a few years. Puberty may be here. She's been sleeping an awful lot lately. But I'm also concerned that her SSRI may not be working any longer. It was like a miracle drug when it was prescribed in the spring, but her developmental ped had to increase the dose about two months ago, and now she seems to be heading downhill again. We've had major meltdowns each of the last two days. And the elephant in the room is that last winter, after we got her ASD diagnosis, we went through the SN process with the local school hoping they had some suitable program for her. They approved her for special education, but did not really have a good situation to put her in. So she's still home, but with an ISP rather than an IEP, and the school is (very loosely) overseeing her progress. They don't *do* anything with her, but we have goals she is supposed to meet. That just adds another layer of pressure without giving any assistance. They were very nice, and try to offer suggestions, but that's it. I think I may try going with her interests more. It would be interesting to see where that would take us. I appreciate all the food for thought here. I'll be mulling it over.

Yes, we have used both carrot and stick today.

"Upcoming biological changes": oh, you have just chilled me to the marrow of my bones, lol! Talk about scary thoughts! Yes, this is actually something I've been thinking about a lot lately. ;-) ;-) ;-)

OhElizabeth, the charts are not really that much help. I think we've overdone them, actually. Most important are the sheets of data for ABA on her behavior, both positive and negative. We track how often things happen, the BCBA plots it all on a graph, and hopefully the negative behaviors diminish over time, though they haven't really done so yet. Then there's a chart that shows how many school subjects we've gotten through each day, with a small reward for days when we get everything done. There's also a chart for days she gets through while avoiding the worst behaviors we're hoping to extinguish. Good days earn more rewards at the end of the week. The trouble is we're experiencing chart fatigue, I think. There's too much to keep track of, and too many rewards getting handed out. Dd wants too many rewards that I'm not willing to give her, like lots of sodas for example, so she gets mad every time that comes up. We're already relying on chocolate chips for math, and $0.25/word she sounds out (maybe 4 to 8 words a day). It all just gets to be too much, but this is the only way we've found to motivate her. She gets to play games during ABA as a reward for getting through her Zones activity or whatever else they're doing. Unfortunately the BCBA did not go to the Zones workshop after all, so she is probably less familiar with that than you are now. She does say she likes the program, but it's all brand new to her. Anyway, thanks for the sympathetic ears, everyone. This has been a tough day. I know we just have to keep on going and do what we can, and slowly we'll make progress.

Dd is 11, which largely accounts for my frustration. I wish we'd been able to get a diagnosis when we first started trying, years ago, but that ship has sailed. So now, yes, I know intellectually that we have to do the work on emotional regulation and executive function before other things will happen very effectively. I do have that as the first priority, and I think everyone who deals with her closely can see the need. But at the same time she's in fifth grade, logic stage, almost middle school, and I have a hard time not freaking out over where we are. I *know* this is counterproductive, but-- my gosh, on bad days she can still get mixed up and forget that she shouldn't subtract the top number from the bottom. On good days, no problem. And then there's reading, and spelling, and writing. Yes, we have done phonics until she is sick of it, but she's never *cared*, and it hasn't stuck very well. She thinks her reading is just fine. She's perfectly happy to read for pleasure (which she does, a lot), and just skip or guess at words. She gets very frustrated with me for asking her to slow down, work at separating the syllables, and sound out the word. I've started literally paying her for each word she sounds out, and we're having our best luck yet because it motivates her to put in the necessary work. Her bank account is getting pretty healthy, lol, but it helps. Kbutton, I have ordered Apples and Pears, we're starting spelling over from the beginning, so I hope that will carry over and help with reading too. And like you said, once she knows a word, she does remember it pretty well.

Thanks, Lecka. Yes, we use all sorts of little rewards. Some are immediate, like chocolate chips after a certain set of math problems, some are more long-term. I've been aware of the Just Give Him the Whale! Book, but I need to order it. We do use that basic idea as much as possible, and there's undoubtedly more I could do. I'll order it today. I find myself getting frustrated because we seem to get so little done. Any little obstacle means we have to take a break, calm down, and lose time. There is so much to do and so little time. We have worked on school during ABA to some extent, but lately they've been doing Zones. A lot of ABA time is also spent on fun activities and games as a reward for getting through the "business" of the day, like the Zones of Regulation. So if the BCBA is here for two hours, they check dd's charts, do a Zones activity, play a game, and that's about it.

There just aren't enough hours in the day. We finally found a source of help with ABA expenses, for which I'm enormously grateful, so dd will get 10 hours per week instead of just 5. Everyone agrees that is necessary. Actually part of the time will be more mental-health than ABA, but in any case, if she can't learn some emotional regulation, she'll have major problems functioning in life. This is her biggest challenge and greatest need. She also has an OT evaluation scheduled next week to rule out sensory issues. This is something I should have done a year ago, but we had to get the ABA in place first, and other things have intervened as well. So now, we'll see about the sensory stuff. That may be another appointment each week. And when do we do school? This is a kid who has very little frustration tolerance and shuts down repeatedly in the course of daily work. So, reading yesterday, the word "necessity" stopped us for over half an hour. She's been tested for dyslexia, has average phonemic awareness, nobody sees any *reason* for reading problems, but the school taught her to read using whole-language method, and she tries to guess at words based on the first letter. When guessing doesn't work she gets frustrated, and she can't handle frustration. Grrrrr!!! And as you see I'm getting frustrated too. It's like this in everything. The essence of some (maybe a lot) of the trouble is that she just doesn't care. She has her special interests, and beyond that, she's really not very interested in the world. No curiosity about the French and Indian War, lol, let alone long division. So there's no frustration tolerance, there's no basic interest or curiosity, she's a slow learner in general unless she's engaged in a topic, and there is *not enough time in the day* to do all the remediation she needs. We have to demonstrate adequate yearly progress. I'm thinking we find an evaluator who understands special needs situations? Have you all found that people understand that, despite an IQ within (broadly speaking) average range, progress may be justifiably slow? How do you find the time to do what you must, or triage without losing too much sleep over what you can't do?

Thank you; that was fascinating! I wish we had one of the groups focused on helping girls with social issues near us.

That sounds so difficult; I'm sorry. I hope you can find an alternative which helps.