Roadrunner Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 The most important thing is that our students and ourselves are mentally and physically healthy, and that our children are developing good character and habits. Academics is secondary. I don't disagree that health and character are important, but I strongly disagree that academics have to somehow take a back seat in order to maintain health and develop character. Imagine the outcry if public schools all of a sudden announced that in order to focus on physical and mental health along with character building, academics will be secondary in schools. For homeschool kids home is school, so certain number of hours during the day academics should be the priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 we found Saxon's emphasis on drill with little to no conceptual understanding harmful to my 2e DS. This was the case for one of my boys (though not with Saxon). It was almost as though the pages of drill removed the need for his brain to remember the understanding of the concept. He simply doesn't need repetition. FWIW, I would like to differentiate between repetition and review. My kids typically need a little review every now and then to refresh their memories, depending on the topic. That's different from daily repetition, at the very least in amount and timing, if not also in context and content - I think it goes to the differences in learning philosophies among programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 FWIW, I would like to differentiate between repetition and review. My kids typically need a little review every now and then to refresh their memories, depending on the topic. That's different from daily repetition, at the very least in amount and timing, if not also in context and content - I think it goes to the differences in learning philosophies among programs. I meant he doesn't need to do 50 problems with long division, for example, to learn it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 There is a difference between accelerated and gifted, which is perhaps what the OP was referring to. You can accelerate a student with Saxon because students are expected to do about twice as many problems as standard, every day. Plus, all the review really helps to reinforce. So you can get ahead in math through sheer effort rather than mathematical brilliance. But for the truly gifted student, Saxon is just not going to cut it. I'm sorry. I know I'm going to upset some folks here. But in my experience it is the truth. For my older boy, any kind of math drill was equivalent to proof reading a dictionary. Even if he had good intentions, he. just. could. not. do. it. He never did drill or repetition. Ever. To put it in perspective, his current algebra 2/pre calc math class will take about 360 hours, and he will only answer 240 problems TOTAL. As in total for the entire class. There is just no drill. Math contains 2 clearly differentiated elements - the algorithmic material (here is how you do it, now go do 10), and the problem solving. Saxon very definitely focuses on the first. My understanding is that Saxon wanted the basics completely automated so as to elevate the mind for the more advanced stuff which comes in the last few books. This is both good and bad. The drill is good and effective, but for a gifted kid not only can it be a joy killer but it also teaches them that 1) math is easy , and 2) I don't have to try hard to succeed. It also causes young gifted kids to accelerate quite quickly which results in them learning deep, complex problem solving with more advanced math, rather than learning it with the simpler math. The result which we have seen in the AoPS classes is that there are some very young and gifted students that simply cannot do the work without help. Once you give them a hint, they can do the problem; but the hint is the problem solving, the insight that is so very hard to develop. All they can do is the algorithmic work. Tell them what to do and they can tweak it a bit to do a problem. Ask them to have original insight into a tricky problem, and they are up a creek without a paddle. They simply have never practised that type of thinking. Personally, I would rather my gifted student learn problem solving with elementary math, rather than Pre Calculus. And I think that this is why some of us with gifted math students encourage parents with very advanced students to look into more difficult programs, like AoPS. Ruth in NZ This. My daughter would be much further along in another type of math program or if skipping the harder parts of AoPS. Doing all the problems -- including Alcumus and Challenge problems without help -- well, that takes a bit of time. But, but, but... something is happening in her brain. It is becoming more and more obvious... This AoPS stuff messes with one's mind.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 And without character and basic social skills that are best developed while working some sort of low level or dirty jobI was thinking about this....I am not sure it has been my experience that low level and/or dirty jobs are the best place to develop social skills and character from the beginning. They may not be "professional" atmospheres; swearing, for example, may be perfectly acceptable and workers may not even be treated well. I did see an interesting story on 60 Minutes about the Year Up program that included extensive training in social skills and professionalism as part of job training. http://www.cbs.com/shows/60_minutes/video/hnBVRuvrxBECGMy4MNXmTIkl9cCJnGMv/jobs-program-benefits-fortune-500-and-underprivileged-youth/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 I've always understood that arithmetic requires low level thinking. Geometry, set theory, and probability require higher order thinking (fluid reasoning) to solve mathematical problems. Complex problem solving can be started from the beginning. I'm sure you have seen the cute puzzlers in K or 1st math books. They kind of look like games, some have grids, some have stars. But the key is that they look like nothing your kid has *ever* seen. They understand the math behind the game, which is why it is possible to do them, but they have to think in a different way to figure them out. MEP is full of them. If students begin their math career with a portion of the work presented as puzzlers, then they are used to problems that they don't know how to solve right away. They are used to having to really think out of the box. And then every year you build on this skill. The puzzlers/challengers get harder and harder, so that by the time they hit challengers in algebra, they are not intimidated. They put on their thinking hat and just give it a go. I have seen some kids who are quite good at math in an algorithmic way get more than just frustrated with problem solving in algebra. It actually hits them in a self-esteem way. They have always been able to do the work, with ease; so it is a shock to their system to find out that it will not always be this way. They often will not even try them, because if they try and fail it hurts their sense of self; but if they don't try at all, they have an excuse. Developing problem solving skills is a long term effort, and IMHO better started from the beginning. Not only does it teach kids that that is what math is, but it also allows them to incrementally develop the skills each year rather than dumping them in the deep end with problem solving in high school math. Clearly, not all kids need this kind of seriously deep thinking; however, I would argue that all kids do need some, or what is math really for? In the end it is for solving problems. Ruth in NZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeteranMom Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 My kids have used Saxon since starting school. It was used when they were in PS from K-2. When we brought them home for school, I continued to use it and have found that the spiral method works well for us. Ds, 12, just took a math placement test for a class through the public charter school. He only got one wrong and will enter Algebra 1 in a few weeks. Math isn't my strength, but I feel like I have been able to teach my kids what they need to know by using Saxon. I've liked the Art Reed Saxon DVDs, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtney_Ostaff Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 People seem to think that Saxon is an especially poor fit for kids who are 'advanced' in math. I don't know if we are 'advanced'....though we are using 5/4 in 1st grade I don't think my son is advanced...we are teaching him basic elementary math skills through problem solving without a curriculum and its a slower process... 5th grade is 10/11 years old. So yes, it's advanced, if he's six. By definition. I suspect that you have excellent math skills yourself, if you can teach problem solving without a curriculum. Well to be fair, even though this is "first grade" because he is 6, we begin our kids formal educations as toddlers so my son has had about 3.5 years of actual math instruction. ... It isn't about making them super stars, its because we want our kids to be independent, studious and learn focus, discipline and work ethic but we can't afford instruments! a) I don't understand why you would begin math instruction as toddlers. b) I'm curious as to what you would do if your child said, "No, I don't want to do this." And some people don't believe their children are special. They get to do that if they want to. They have their reasons for believing what they believe. :iagree: ... the OP's student spends on math seems developmentally inappropriate IMO, especially to the extent that it is not driven by the student himself. I would keep an eye out for resistance lest the current schedule backfire against the student's joy of learning math..... :iagree: ElmerRex, you are not describing a typical American or even Asian 6 year old. Diligence will not result in producing these same results with all 6 year olds. :iagree: ... elmerRex, I agree with you that diligent work and active parental involvement make a huge difference in a student's academic performances, and that's precisely why Asian students in general can master calculus by high school and do better in STEM majors (.... This....plus ... intentionally advanced their young kids education the way that I did.... Why would you do this? What's the point? Are they going to graduate from high school in the 8th grade, get a job early, and pay taxes earlier? I disagree that Asian students are superior at STEM occupations, by the way. I don't think the research bears that out. Time is limited, so all that time spent on academics at a young age is at the expense of something else. Isn't that "else" important, too? I mean, we all know really smart people who get fired because they can't schmooze with the boss, and we all know complete numbskulls who keep their job because they impress the right people. Personally, I'd rather my child kept the job, even if they didn't take calculus in 8th grade. But hey, I'm a slacker American parent with mouthy, lazy kids.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad astra Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Why would you do this? What's the point? Are they going to graduate from high school in the 8th grade, get a job early, and pay taxes earlier? I disagree that Asian students are superior at STEM occupations, by the way. I don't think the research bears that out. Time is limited, so all that time spent on academics at a young age is at the expense of something else. Isn't that "else" important, too? I mean, we all know really smart people who get fired because they can't schmooze with the boss, and we all know complete numbskulls who keep their job because they impress the right people. Personally, I'd rather my child kept the job, even if they didn't take calculus in 8th grade. But hey, I'm a slacker American parent with mouthy, lazy kids.... Courtney, have you ever been to Silicon Valley? Or any engineering department at a selective university? Have you ever visited any major electronics company? You'll see a significantly higher rate of Asian population there. I'm sorry I do not have any statistics in my hand at this moment to support this, but I can testify for sure with all my multinational STEM experience. It is well known that an average math test score of Asian students is much higher than American students'. Look at this result in 2013 and another result in 2003 and see where the United States stands on. I mean, why do you think Singapore Math curriculum is so popular on this forum? I do not intend to graduate my son early as you assume. Maybe a year but not earlier than that. In fact, I'm using a multiple of curricula for each subject to slow his pace down and focusing on solidifying his understanding, rather than radically accelerating him through a single easy program. But there's not so much I can control since doing school is what keeps him satisfied. I don't know why it is hard for you to believe some kids are naturally more self-motivated and interested in academics at a younger age than other average kids are. They find more joy in learning from texts than playing on iPad games or coloring on a paper, and they work at a faster pace since they "get" things easily. And they still have 12+ hours a day to do all the wonderful things other kids do. Also, who said these accelerated/gifted kids can't "schmooze" with others? Trust me, my son is getting everything "else" (or even more) as well and totally being a 4yo kid, a very happy and sociable one, although he is accelerated in academics. I don't understand how you call yourself a slacker parent when you criticized other hs moms on Facebook groups for being slack and having low academic standards in other thread. We all try to do the best for our own children. Isn't homeschooling all about accepting differences and respecting individual choices? What's so special about being just like other kids at the same age? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Why would you do this? What's the point? Are they going to graduate from high school in the 8th grade, get a job early, and pay taxes earlier? I disagree that Asian students are superior at STEM occupations, by the way. I don't think the research bears that out. Time is limited, so all that time spent on academics at a young age is at the expense of something else. Isn't that "else" important, too? I mean, we all know really smart people who get fired because they can't schmooze with the boss, and we all know complete numbskulls who keep their job because they impress the right people. Personally, I'd rather my child kept the job, even if they didn't take calculus in 8th grade. But hey, I'm a slacker American parent with mouthy, lazy kids.... I would disagree -- I don't see anything wrong with it as long as the kid is interested and enthused. If that fades, the parent needs to be ready to drop back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtney_Ostaff Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Courtney, have you ever been to Silicon Valley? Or any engineering department at a selective university? Have you ever visited any major electronics company? You'll see a significantly higher rate of Asian population there. No, I haven't been to Silicon Valley, but I've grown up around engineers and scientists. My SIL is a research immunologist, as is a cousin, my grandpa was a rocket scientist, my husband works in IT... I live in a university town, etcetera. Yes, as a percentage of the population, Asian-Americans tend to have more white-collar jobs. Just like someone said up-thread (I'm on my phone), it bespeaks more the family culture than innate "better" at STEM. I'm sorry I do not have any statistics in my hand at this moment to support this, but I can testify with all my multinational experience that an average math test score of Asian students is much higher than American students'. Look at this result in 2013 and another result in 2003 and see where the United States stands on. 1) I think there are more reasons than being innately better at math behind test scores, and 2) precisely my point—it's cultural, *for the families who can afford it*. I mean, why do you think Singapore Math curriculum is so popular on this forum? I chose it because I thought it was a better math curriculum than Saxon, personally, at least for the first few years. At this point, it's more challenging for my daughter, who is not gifted or accelerated. ....But there's not so much I can control since doing school is what keeps him satisfied. I don't know why it is hard for you to believe some kids are naturally more self-motivated and interested in academics at a younger age than other average kids are. Oh, I believe those kids exist. My question is, why indulge them to that extent? What is the end goal? And they still have 12+ hours a day to do all the wonderful things other kids do. Also, who said these accelerated/gifted kids can't "schmooze" with others? 1) There's a finite amount of time in the day. If they're doing academics, then they're not practicing social skills—and even though it's verboten to openly fuss about social skills on homeschooling boards, I'm saying it. 2) By the mere fact that these kids are so academically out of step with their peers, they're going to have social difficulties. BTDT. Look, if you're happy, you go for it. That's the beauty of homeschooling. I just don't get the point of it. I have no doubt that my 6-yr-old could do this "advanced" academics, given the same academic structure and reinforcement—but I'm not doing it. I think she's got more important skills to learn right now. At 35, does it matter if she learned her multiplication tables at age 4 or age 9? I don't understand how you call yourself a slacker parent when you criticized other hs moms on Facebook groups for being slack and not having high academic standards in other thread. 1) sarcasm, and 2) I said they had different educational values. It wasn't criticism to say that they had no interest in academic difficulty, it was a statement of fact. Yes, the accent was a bit of a snark, but my Yankee in-laws are the same way—the first time I met my FIL, he told me that my attending graduate school was a waste of time, that you didn't need a college degree to make a good living. We all try to do the best for our own children. Isn't homeschooling all about accepting differences and respecting individual choices? What's so special about being just like other kids at the same age? Well, technically I think homeschool is about not attending public schools full time. But yes, I do try to accept differences and choices. What I was saying is that I don't understand this choice. This does not compute. There is a value in not being too far out of lockstep with your peers—socially and emotionally. There is a value in being ordinary and average. There is a value in not being a special snowflake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad astra Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Courtney, I understand you have a different POV and I won't try to change it. I just don't understand why you feel the need to be sarcastic about or talk down other's different choice in a different situation. As you admitted, you were not just asking out of curiosity. I don't know if it's a cultural thing or just our difference, but I really don't understand why you would only value something "innately better" but not so much the actual hard work and higher achievements as a result. (Actually I'm the one who argued such effort and parental involvement are precisely what made difference in result, and you disagreed. I never said Asian students are innately better at STEM. What do you mean by "for the parents who can afford it"? You mean Asian parents can afford more?) But then... I saw you criticizing others with lower standards, so... ETA: Ok, you insist you were not criticizing them so I take it back. But look, nobody said there is no value in being average or her way is superior. And saying that I'm sacrificing my son's social skills by doing advanced schoolwork with him seems far-fetched. The same thing can be said about homeschooling kids by PS parents and you don't want to hear it. Can we just not judge each other? Pursuing academic rigor doesn't necessarily come at the expense of social skills or happiness, and being relaxed or unschooling is not the best way for everyone. It really depends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmerRex Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 We will try and reply to every ones comments. 5th grade is 10/11 years old. So yes, it's advanced, if he's six. By definition. I should be more careful with my vocabulary. My son is not gifted, but his math skills are ahead. We don't know if he counts as accelerated, because he was taught over the same amount of time that other kids would have, but he was taught him in a different way.I suspect that you have excellent math skills yourself, if you can teach problem solving without a curriculum. Well, yes, compared to the average US adult, both my sons parents do have excellent math skills, but really its just arithmetic. If you understand arithmetic and have a reference guide, then you should be able to teach it. It was not our ideal situation to teach without a specific curriculum, but it was a conscious choice made for our situation. a) I don't understand why you would begin math instruction as toddlers. B) I'm curious as to what you would do if your child said, "No, I don't want to do this." a--I don't understand why you would NOT begin math instruction as toddlers, so I don't know quite how to phrase a best-response. It is not as though we are doing something completely unheard of either. Many (but of course not all) Preschoolers and Kindergartners who attend Montessori-inspired schools can do the same math that my son can do and at the same age... b--I don't know about all kids and all parents, but WE can not force OUR child to learn X. This is why my son still can not read well at all, he said to his dad "Baba, I want to read like R." But when we tried to teach him, we didn't do as good of a job and he wasn't ready to learn to read (from an inexperienced teacher). It didn't take long to see that he wasn't sincere in his lessons and he wasn't cooperative so we asked him again if he wanted to read and he said "No, Mama and Baba, I don't like doing letters and words. I don't want to learn to read anymore." So we stopped reading lessons immediately. When he is 7, we will insist he learn to read more seriously, but we may get him a tutor for reading as English isn't our native language Why would you do this? What's the point? Are they going to graduate from high school in the 8th grade, get a job early, and pay taxes earlier? I disagree that Asian students are superior at STEM occupations, by the way. I don't think the research bears that out. Time is limited, so all that time spent on academics at a young age is at the expense of something else. Isn't that "else" important, too? I mean, we all know really smart people who get fired because they can't schmooze with the boss, and we all know complete numbskulls who keep their job because they impress the right people. Personally, I'd rather my child kept the job, even if they didn't take calculus in 8th grade. But hey, I'm a slacker American parent with mouthy, lazy kids.... We all have different reasons and one of ours was to teach discipline. A bright person with good discipline and work ethic may succeed where a genius person with no discipline and sloppy work ethic may fail. My son is not gifted, but there are a lot of kids around him who are gifted and tons more non-gifted but bright or very bright kids. Some of them are learning discipline, some of them are not. From my generation and my parents generation, I have seen how the discipline and work ethic is serving everyone who possesses this trait. I also see many of the genius people amount to nearly nothing. Yes, time is limited, but we can not change that reality for anyone, not even our beloved children. There is an opportunity cost to living. By being on the internet and conversing with you, we can't be in bed asleep or watching TV but that is reality. We don't know what you are getting at with the "else" because 1) We honestly, don't know what "schmooze with the boss" means, can you explain? and 2) Think about this--3-7 year old kids have nothing but time on their hands. They don't work jobs, they don't have to commute, pay bills, or plan for their future, budget, pay taxes or worry about anything except maybe "will I get chocolate milk and baklava tonight?" TV and video games are the biggest waste of time for the 3-7 yo kid that I can think of, our kids don't have the option to watch TV or play video games when they want to. And anyway who said that because our child does math he doesn't do anything else? ALL the activities available to him are not beneficial, the non-beneficial ones we don't worry about and we give him other activities. Every single child that my son knows attends Kumon and has since they were 3. My son didn't go to Kumon, we didn't want that competition, stress or boredom for him. Everyone in the family was mad that we didn't put him in Kumon, felt he would be behind or not learn math, discipline and be behind when he went to K. Well, you can not imagine the fuss when we did not put him in Kindergarten and instead let him stay home and when his relatives refused to watch him anymore, thinking this would force us to put him in school, we just hired our beloved part time nanny, full time. All the other kids we know are forced to take music lessons, my kids did the 2 terms of "Music and Movement" classes that the center offered and then we brought them home. They don't have to play violin if they don't want to. WE can't afford it anyway, why force hardship on everyone involved? We don't do a bunch of academics with toddlers--just math and reading. Instead of adding in more topics, our kids go to the park, the cinema, and the indoor pool. My son plays football (aka Soccer) and we buy them board games. Our kids go to museums and theater shows, to story times at the library and the bookstore and the community center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Please don't explain yourself. It is irrelevant as to whether anyone agrees with your parenting and teaching decisions or not. :D Initially, I was put off by this thread because of the title and what appeared to be false modesty. By and large, most parents on WTM consider themselves to be dedicated and your child is very bright, whether you choose to acknowledge that or not. Lots of people have experienced Saxon and have their reasons for moving on. Saxon is an excellent fit for many and I don't expect the company is going anywhere, anytime soon. So, how is your son with the word problems and have you looked at MEP? Have you considered teaching Soroban abacus? It seems your child is light years ahead and could explore some more? Do you plan to look at AOPS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherOfBoys Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 If you post on the accelerated board you wouldn't need to explain yourself. We know that just because your child does math before k doesn't mean he doesn't have a life. We know that if your child takes algebra before 7th grade doesn't always mean your graduating him early. There are other math classes to take after the typical high school series. Your son might not be gifted, just given the right opportunity the right way. But he is accelerated and this thread is why we post on the accelerated board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 -I don't understand why you would NOT begin math instruction as toddlers, so I don't know quite how to phrase a best-response. It is not as though we are doing something completely unheard of either. Many (but of course not all) Preschoolers and Kindergartners who attend Montessori-inspired schools can do the same math that my son can do and at the same age While there is a wide range of typical development, and a *few* preschoolers and Kers at Montessori schools may do the math your son is doing, it is *not* many. Montessori math materials are fantastic for learning at early ages and set a great foundation. My five kids currently in a Montessori school have done very well with them and most of them are accelerated, but some of their levels are well above the more common ability groupings at their school. (I haven't seen the lower levels of Saxon - one of my kids used 6/5 briefly - but I find it difficult to analogize Saxon and Montessori math as there would be significant differences in learning methods between them, e.g., no fact drill here.) All I am trying to say is that it would be very wrong to believe most kids are capable of starting 4th grade math in 1st grade if only they had sufficient discipline and sufficient time/effort with an attentive teacher. That's just not the case, even with homeschooling's personal attention and flexibility to put together a custom-fit curriculum with a variety of resources. For example, even in a Montessori classroom, which allows for students to work with math materials as soon as they are ready, a typical/average developmental curve has students just starting to get involved in Montessori math materials in the second half of the second preschool year, just before K. Do visit the Accelerated board for lengthy discussions of math teaching, goals and such, a favorite topic over there :). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erin Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Not to mention, why gifted kids will never be happy or successful with Saxon. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmerRex Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Please don't explain yourself. It is irrelevant as to whether anyone agrees with your parenting and teaching decisions or not. :D Okay, I'm sorry. Initially, I was put off by this thread because of the title and what appeared to be false modesty. By and large, most parents on WTM consider themselves to be dedicated and your child is very bright, whether you choose to acknowledge that or not. Lots of people have experienced Saxon and have their reasons for moving on. Saxon is an excellent fit for many and I don't expect the company is going anywhere, anytime soon. Thank you, my English word choice is very clumsy sometimes. I don't know all the educational terminology well. I will change the title because it isn't meant to insult anyone else who uses a different style of parenting. I sincerely apologize about that. It is too literal a translation from how we say it, I think. However, I know that my son is not 'gifted' but I know that he is bright. I see that there is some language and cultural and sub-culture differences that I didn't know about before posting here. I didn't mean to offend. I apologize. So, how is your son with the word problems? My son is okay with word problems. We have always worked on word problems seperately from calculation because they are two separate things to us. He usually needs the most help with Saxon when he comes to word problems, but that is because he is not an independent reader yet, nor a native Anglophone and reading the problem takes a lot of his focus, then understanding what he read takes up even more of his focus. He is almost fully independent with the calculation work and number questions, but he needs more support with the word problems. Aside from Saxon Math we continue to work on word problems separately because this is more difficult for him and we want to know his progress and his struggles. and have you looked at MEP? We have heard of MEP and intend to look it through and have tentative plans to use it, but we still don't understand the flow of the curriculum just yet. My husband and I teach the kids as a team, so we will both have to read and understand the program before we start the kids. We are not sure how to use MEP books yet. Using Saxon math, our math time went up some and we'd like to cut back on the time we spend on paper-and-pencil math, not increase it so if we can't get our Saxon time down, we will not add in another written component. Have you considered teaching Soroban abacus? We considered it, but never got around to serious teaching of the Soroban to my son when he was younger. He used it for a short while but passed that stage of wanting too as he can do the problems easier with either blocks or with pencil and a pad. There are classes offered here that we may put him in but we don't know yet. We'd like him to learn Anzan, but not with the big goal of competing--though it would be nice if he did. I loved those school competitions when I was a kid. My daughters like the Soroban though and we give them lessons sometimes but they are less-interested now also. We may put all of the kids in Anzan class if we find a good teacher for them. It seems your child is light years ahead and could explore some more? Personally I don't understand giftedness fully, but I can say that I honestly feel that being 'gifted' comes from something 'extra' with in that can not be taught from books or blocks like math and reading can. There are a lot of good readers, a lot of kids who are great at math but there aren't a lot of truly gifted people. I don't know how to say this well, and I don't want to offend anyone anymore...Please excuse me if this expression is not best. My son is ahead, but he really is not light years ahead. He is not stand out amongst his real-life peers. Almost every single Asian-Immigrant kid we know who is in our area and within the age 5-7 has abilities with in the range of my sons, it is just a part of our culture and our way. They aren't all gifted--some of them are, but most of them are not. Almost ALL of these kids that we know and see in real life are taught. They practice, they and their parents put in the work. A lot of the Asian parents that I know put their kids in Kumon, get Asian textbooks, get a tutor, or put them in extra after school academic classes so that they will 1) be prepared for Asian school when they return or send the kids back to their countries, or 2) not be behind their Asian peers (the ones still in Asia). Being ahead of standard US expectations is sometimes just a side benefit/after thought. There are some Asians who look at it as a pride-thing, but most of us do not care what the American kids are doing, we focus on our kids. I see that there is some cultural differences that I didn't think about before posting here, and I don't have the best way to express this in English. I don't think my son is gifted so I put it in the normal boards, but next time I will only write posts in the gifted boards so that no one is upset. I just got excited to see others who care as much about their kids academically but on an individual level. I truly do not mean this to be offensive. Please know that I am sorry. Do you plan to look at AOPS? I don't "think" we will use the little kid Beast Academy books for my son for a few reasons 0) My son doesn't think in such detailed and clever ways. 1) he is very sensitive to monsters, even the Elmo. 2) he never liked the comics we got him before, lots of complaints 3) we are particular about how he learns the basics. For example, we don't teach them that multiplication is repeated addition/skip-counting in the beginning, we teach it our way first and then they make or we show the connection between skip counting, repeated addition and multiplication. But we teach it our way first. 4) My son doesn't think in such specific and clever ways. Maybe when he is older, he will enjoy Beast Academy, but right now, I don't think it a good fit him. Right now, Saxon is perfect for him. It gives him the stable practice level that he needs in his work and my son is so, so, so very happy to finally have a math booklet like all his peers. (We scale up and print out the problem sets for him and staple it). In the evening he gets his math booklet like everyone else and while everyone else does 200 identical Kumon problems each night in 15 minutes, my son does only 54 Saxon problems in 60 minutes. Son doesn't think about it to see that he does 1/4 as many problems in 4x as much time, he doesn't feel left out now because he has a math booklet at night. We know that he doesn't do less than his peers, he does different and that is okay for us. We try not to worry about what our son will do in 10 years when he is 16. We try and give him a strong foundation and worry about how he will feel in 10 hours. When he is older we may offer to him Art of Problem Solving textbooks for older kids, but right now that is so far off we don't think about it. We try and focus on only 2-3 months at a time for planning so that we can stay in-tune with our little boys daily and weekly state. My son getting a strong foundation is non-negotiable, but how he gets it is flexible and his future is up to him. If you post on the accelerated board you wouldn't need to explain yourself. We know that just because your child does math before k doesn't mean he doesn't have a life. We know that if your child takes algebra before 7th grade doesn't always mean your graduating him early. There are other math classes to take after the typical high school series. Your son might not be gifted, just given the right opportunity the right way. But he is accelerated and this thread is why we post on the accelerated board. From now on, I will post over there. I did not understand the difference for gifted, advanced, accelerated, bright, etc. Many words we don't learn until we need them for our kids, thank you for the tips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmerRex Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 While there is a wide range of typical development, and a *few* preschoolers and Kers at Montessori schools may do the math your son is doing, it is *not* many. Montessori math materials are fantastic for learning at early ages and set a great foundation. My five kids currently in a Montessori school have done very well with them and most of them are accelerated, but some of their levels are well above the more common ability groupings at their school. (I haven't seen the lower levels of Saxon - one of my kids used 6/5 briefly - but I find it difficult to analogize Saxon and Montessori math as there would be significant differences in learning methods between them, e.g., no fact drill here.) Okay, thank you, I am not well-versed in Montessori personally. I visited a few Montessori or Montessori inspired PreK-Kindergarten schools and usually the kids math skills at the end of it are not far from comparable to my sons. I visited one school that both of their K classes could add and subtract 3 digit numbers, and learning to multiply/divide with small numbers at the end of Kindergarten. I guess I have under estimated the importance and influence of parental involvement for those particular kids, I had assumed without proper exposure that Montessori had those high math standards universally. All I am trying to say is that it would be very wrong to believe most kids are capable of starting 4th grade math in 1st grade if only they had sufficient discipline and sufficient time/effort with an attentive teacher. Okay, I think that I understand. I keep expressing this wrong and I don't know what to say or how, so I am sorry to keep confusing the issue. That's just not the case, even with homeschooling's personal attention and flexibility to put together a custom-fit curriculum with a variety of resources. For example, even in a Montessori classroom, which allows for students to work with math materials as soon as they are ready, a typical/average developmental curve has students just starting to get involved in Montessori math materials in the second half of the second preschool year, just before K. Do you know where Montessori math students are typically at in their math study at the end of the K year? I honestly do not know when/how they begin, but I know that at least 60% of the Montessori students that I saw were doing math that many 2nd graders can do. They had learned with different methods and modified papers, but were transitioning to paper and pencil based learning, but they could do the work. Do visit the Accelerated board for lengthy discussions of math teaching, goals and such, a favorite topic over there :). Thank you, I will go and have a look around there. I didn't understand about all the criteria for gifted/advanced/accelerated/bright. I think I made a mistake in writing this post on the K-8 boards. Is there a way for me to move the topic? I can not find that in the settings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 My kids may not fancy Saxon math but I agree with the OP that a social culture of discipline can get a child ready for Saxon 5/4 at 6 years old without being considered gifted. I just feel bad for the OP since she already stated that it requires dedication in her thread title. My parents were born during world war two. They had a british style education (colonial period) and had their times-table down cold to 16 x 16 during the 1st term of 1st grade. They could convert imperial units to SI units too easily just by tag along grocery shopping at mom and pop shops that use the abacus and no cash register. I was born in the early 70s and had 12 x 12 down cold during 1st term. There wasn't a need for me to remember up to 16 x 16 so I didn't being the slacker that I am. Learning squares and square roots early was normal too. I don't think my parents born in the days of the colonial era are much brighter than my age group born after independence to my kids age group born after Y2K. Expectations however has drop, discipline has drop, dictionary and calculator dependency has gone up in my home country. It doesn't matter to me that my home country still ranks in the top few consistently in PISA. The immigrant mentality to strive is kind of gone. People (general) has this stereotype that asians spend a lot of time to task for academics. It is not the time to task but the intensity of the time spent on task. An asian child can have plenty of playtime despite what may look like a heavy academic workload. As a toddler, I had an uncle who when bored would teach me how to say 1-20 in various languages by tapping on my fingers and toes. He figured it was easy enough but I guess that would be classified by some people as hothousing to teach someone under a year old to count. The deck of Aladdin cards that is so common. I learn how to form 21 with my cards to win with the aces representing 1, 10 or 11 (blackjack or pontoon). That was before preschool for most of us. That is lots of fun math in a deck of cards that can be learned before a child can read. Whether we (general) are homeschooling or after schooling our children, we are going at our child's pace. There is no need to mock/put down OP's way of doing things for her child. ETA: The montessori schools here are varied and I'm not surprise by what you (OP) see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Elmer, You don't need to remove yourself -- I think it's a word choice. I was thinking about this earlier but didn't get time to post. Usually, gifted here is used to mean someone who's above average. Depending on who is talking, it could mean anything from top 20% to top 5% or higher. So, when someone says "my kid is not gifted", it means "my kid is within average range or lower". I think you are using gifted in a more exclusive sense -- in a sense more like we tend to use profoundly gifted -- the kid who is light-years ahead of his age-mates. Am I right? I am going to use "bright" instead of "gifted" for the remainder of my post. Please assume that when I say this, I mean "somewhat above average". Remember, also, that the Asians you know are a self-selected group. If you, as bright + motivated parents, associate similarly with other bright + motivated parents, what they talk about starts to seem normal. It is very easy, then, to assume that what your kids and the kids of your friends can do, any kid could do if given the opportunity and the cultural normality of hard work. Two of my friends had kids at about the same time, and their kids are in the profoundly gifted range -- they both began to read spontaneously, without instruction, between 2 and 3, and were at a high school level well before 6. Their mothers credited it to providing a linguistically rich environment, and had no real idea of just how accelerated their little kids were. They genuinely believed that any kid could do this if given the chance. For one set of parents, it took a psychologist with an IQ test to convince them that their kid was far above average. Again, this is an example of how we develop our expectations from those around us. The reason I'm explaining this is to try to explain why you're getting the reaction you are. People who do have average kids see you saying "He's not gifted" which translates in their minds into "He's average or lower", and know that their kid could never have done that at that age. In future, it might be good to just say "He's bright" or something along those lines -- something that concedes that he is above average, when compared to the average population. Now, as to people telling you stuff about Saxon: Frankly, no, I wouldn't use it. But your kid is happy and thriving doing what he's doing. I don't see a problem with it. Some bright kids still do better developing the computational fluency first. When he gets closer to algebra, I would at least add a supplement for creative problem-solving. But I wouldn't alter what you're doing now, until and unless your kid starts to be unhappy. I want to end that I think you're feeling a bit unwelcome. I don't think that's how people meant to come across. Sorry about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Thank you, I will go and have a look around there. I didn't understand about all the criteria for gifted/advanced/accelerated/bright. I think I made a mistake in writing this post on the K-8 boards. Is there a way for me to move the topic? I can not find that in the settings... No worries. I was just pointing to the Accelerated board as a place where you might find more pertinent discussions and more targeted advice. Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renai Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 With the word problems, is it a math issue or a language issue? I've had a student that looked like he wasn't understanding a concept, but when told in his native language, he picked up rapidly and was able to transfer the skill to English. This was a younger student (preK),(and I learned Nepalese along the way), but the principle applies - the skills will transfer tfrom native language to English, if that is the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 elmerRex, why did you choose Saxon over Singapore math? I am fascinated by your choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Developing problem solving skills is a long term effort, and IMHO better started from the beginning. Not only does it teach kids that that is what math is, but it also allows them to incrementally develop the skills each year rather than dumping them in the deep end with problem solving in high school math. There are different ways to develop problem solving skills though. Some children simply aren't developmentally ready to solve problems using math until their computation is down pat, so it stresses them out when presenting a complex problem at their computational level. They need more practice with the computation, getting it automatic, before they learn to problem solve. Playing strategy games is a great way to develop those skills, while continuing to use a math program such as Saxon, CLE, or Horizons - all standard math programs that you would call "algorithmic" (though the term around here is usually used in contrast with conceptual understanding - ie, learning the algorithm without learning the "why" behind the algorithm, and that's clearly not how you're using the term in this thread). When I was a kid, I played strategy games and used a typical public school textbook all through elementary. I don't remember doing ANY problem solving in math class. We did word problems, but it wasn't anything like what AoPS would do. Then I got to 6th grade and got on the math team. There I learned problem solving - all the same stuff my oldest is currently doing in AoPS Prealgebra. It was FINE that I didn't learn how to do competition math until middle school age. By time I got to Algebra in 9th grade, I had zero problems. Went through AP Calculus, loving it all and enjoying the problem solving involved (my high school was quite good). I went through an engineering degree (with more math, of course), never running into any problems with doing problem solving in any of my classes. My friends usually came to me to explain stuff to them, because they didn't get it. Clearly, not doing something like Singapore Math or MEP in elementary didn't hurt me. ;) I do agree that you have to ease a child into "hard problems". Don't just toss them into AoPS Intro to Algebra to work independently after they've done Teaching Textbooks for 5+ years, for example. That is a disaster waiting to happen. When I started AoPS Prealgebra with my oldest in 4th grade, I held his hand for the first 2 chapters. We walked through each problem, learned how to tackle hard problems, and then he was able to take off. While we were doing the handholding, I also had him going through CLE 500 to shore up his arithmetic. He had learned stuff in Singapore, but hadn't practiced enough to really have everything automatic. He made a lot of silly mistakes, sometimes forgot how to do something, etc. He's gifted, but not PG. He does need *some* drill. After doing CLE for several months, he doesn't make silly mistakes when doing AoPS. He also has the basic arithmetic so automatic that he can focus on the problem solving in AoPS. He can work through AoPS independently and not break down into a crying puddle of goo. He does all the problems, including the Challenge problems. He's rarely even needing a hint on the Challenge problems these days. One year of AoPS in late elementary has taught him to tackle hard problems. My younger two children are skipping Singapore. They're doing CLE right now. Yep, it's drill. Lots of drill. Yep, the problems are mostly easy (though there are some tricky ones in there from time to time). I'm ok with that for my 5 and 7 year old. :tongue_smilie: I did Beast Academy with my 7 year old last year and part of this year, but I've dropped it for now. It was too much problem solving before his brain was really ready for it. He could do the problems, but it was killing me to walk him through finding 35 squared using 30x40+25. It was just clear that that was too much too soon (and yes, he was using it early for what they recommend). So we're just doing CLE now, and I'm happy with that. He plays strategy games and thinks of hard problems to do his head. It's all good. When he gets to Prealgebra, closer to middle school age, he can do AoPS (I think it will be a good fit for how his mind works - he's very creative and visual spatial), learning to apply math to problem solving more. But before that? I'm actually thinking Saxon would be a good idea for him. He needs the review to keep things fresh in his brain. He won't remember stuff if he doesn't see it often (this has made reading difficult - for a while, he couldn't remember a word that he just sounded out in the same LINE, even when he was getting close to 7 years old). A spiral, traditional math program is a great fit for him. The competition math stuff can wait until he's more in the "logic stage" of his development. Your son probably hit that stage in math much earlier (as my oldest did to some extent). But as I've taught my other kids and looked at other people's kids, as well as looked at my own education, I am more and more convinced that a traditional math trajectory in elementary is FINE, and the extreme competition math style problem solving stuff can wait until middle school for many kids. The PG kids that have a passion for math will obviously be ready much earlier. That's part of what makes them PG. ;) Again, I do think strategy games, puzzles, and other such things are good in elementary. I just don't think you HAVE to use a math curriculum full of those in order to have a kid good at problem solving later. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 ETA: cross-posted with boscopup; I think we're saying a few of the same things. :001_smile: But your kid is happy and thriving doing what he's doing. I don't see a problem with it. Some bright kids still do better developing the computational fluency first. When he gets closer to algebra, I would at least add a supplement for creative problem-solving. This is something that's been mentioned on these boards in the past, but it seems to get lost in the rush to divide children into binary categories of "mathy" and "not mathy." In elementary school, I would have been considered gifted at math by any external measure, but I don't think I would have thrived with an approach that was heavy on conceptual teaching and low on practice. It just wasn't where my strengths or interests were at that age. For me, the pleasure came from practicing with the tools we were given, and using those tools to solve problems. While I enjoyed working on the unusual types of questions in math contests, I didn't seek them out in my free time -- and I didn't mind doing the easier everyday ones we were given in class. When I first saw Saxon (as an adult), I thought it looked like a lot of fun. There also seems to be an idea that if a young student finds a mainstream math curriculum easy, that means the right thing to do is to stop using it and switch to a harder one. Or maybe a combination of *several* harder ones. I find this interesting, first of all because it doesn't appear to be based on any evidence (just some theories), and secondly because people don't seem inclined to use the same reasoning with other subjects. If anything, if a child is racing ahead in reading, writing, or spelling, many board members would recommend that the parent just stop using a curriculum altogether for the time being. With language arts, there doesn't seem to be this same fear that our children have to be constantly challenged, starting in kindergarten, or they'll never reach their full potential. AoPS was originally aimed at students in 6th grade and up. For students who seem to have an aptitude for math, but aren't begging for something more than the regular curriculum, I think that's early enough to start adding extra challenge and depth. Even then, some might not really get into this sort of thing until the middle of high school, or even later. There's a lot we don't understand about the development of gifted children. Trying to fit them into one path is probably not a good idea. On a somewhat related note, I came across this paper, which refers to Krutetski's identification of three types of "mathematical cast of mind": analytic (tends to think in the abstract, without visual supports), geometric (more inclined to visualize), and harmonic (combining the two). As someone who tended more toward the analytic, it seems to me that many of the current generalizations about "the best way to teach math" are more oriented toward the geometric. For what it's worth. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmerRex Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 elmerRex, why did you choose Saxon over Singapore math? I am fascinated by your choice. There are quite a few reasons: We didn't chose Saxon math "over" Singapore. We looked for something and looked for something and we found Saxon based on what we looked for. We didn't really consider Singapore Math (we are more familiar with that syllabus), but when we looked at it, we had already seen and liked Saxon Math. It was never a Singapore Math vs Saxon decision for us. We can teach math in Asian style just fine. We can teach ANY math syllabus any way that we want. We don't need all the extra stuff to do that. I can tell you we picked Saxon for many reasons but the main one is we feel our son is well served by the problem sets in Saxon. It isn't a clever or wonderful reason, it is just...he needs practice, repetition and revision.. We looked for a while before learning what we needed for him. We found the Spiral vs Mastery discussion and we knew that our soon needed "conceptual Spiral" based on what we know about him. Later we found the "eBook" of Saxon 5/4, Saxon 6/5, and Course 1, Course 2 and Course 3 and we liked how it does the problem sets. We can teach him math how we we like, but without regular practice it isn't sticking into his head and being made automatic for him. We didn't want him stuck in his math later, we want his basic skills to be solid so that he can know success. I don't know how to say the word for it, but my son is not the "see it one time and always know it" kind of kid. He needs to see it daily and sometimes different ways for a while just to understand and when he understands, he will need to then practice the doing of it regularly but something like Kumon (200 problems of the same type for so long) is too extreme for him at this time. I guess maybe my son is odd--he will not forget the understanding, but he can not always translate what he understands about math to how to do it on paper. He needs something to help him make that translation from with his mind to with his pen. He can also be a good complainer so Saxon is a great "middle step" for him and it saves us the trouble. When we made his evening practice-work by hand, he started to complains that it is too boring, or too hard or not enough. Often when he said it was too hard, he had forgotten some detail because we don't make a review of that type of problem often enough and he forgets 1 or 2 of the details of how to do that type of problems and we have to re-teach the problem and he remembers 1/2 way through then he says "Baba already told me this!" or "Mama showed me so I know already!" very sassy which made us mad at him for his sass. We try not to scold the kids for academics because we don't want to make them anxious to work, but we don't like sass either. Me especially, I can not be patient or joyous toward sassy kids. Also I got rid of his sassy influence! We could not get the quality and difficulty "just so" for him, not in a consistent way and he was never being satisfied. If we finally got it just right, he changed again and then the work was too easy or too boring or not enough or something. Making his practice-work by hand was not ideal. Finally we can solve our practice-work factory problems because Saxon does it for us. He likes Saxon problem sets more. The level of difficulty is consistent, the problems are "just enough" for him. Not too easy and not too hard. He feels "official" among his peers now and loves having a math booklet everyday (for now. I am suspicious of his love for the evening practice-work because normally he complained 2 or 3x a week. Still he hasn't complained yet.). My conclusion after that long novel? I feel that Saxon has brilliant problem sets. He will not have the chance to forget anything, he can stretch a little bit each time he does his practice sets and his mastery of skills will grow in an even fashion and we don't have to do it by hand anymore. We might not use all of Saxon eBooks that we have with him, maybe he will grow up past them sooner than that, but for now we think we will for sure use all of 5/4 and 6/5, but maybe change how we are using Saxon Math 6/5.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Your reasoning sounds great! Do you even look at the Teacher's Manual for Saxon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmerRex Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 Your reasoning sounds great! Do you even look at the Teacher's Manual for Saxon? No, we don't have the Teachers Manual, only the eTextbook, but we do pre-read all the lessons and work all the problems ahead of my son. This way we can see what the work is in detail and how it will be to solve it and when we see what he misses, we might have insight as to why. Also to pre-read the lessons helps us to know what is expected and to prepare helps us to make easy the teaching for his way of thinking or to make sure we don't teach a conflict to what he knows. For example, in lesson 41: Subtracting Across Zero, I won't teach him the long way to do regrouping for problems like 405 - 126, 405 is 4Hs + 0Ts + 5Os so you can break 1 of the H into Ts, then break the T into Os. - 126 is 1Hs + 2Ts + 6Os the regrouping will look like this 3H + 10T + 5Os, so you regroup it again until you have 3H + 9Ts + 15Os and then you do the subtraction. That is not what he's ever been taught, it is too many steps for him, it is too complicated for him to remember all of the steps to. We have already shown him the way that Saxon Math says is a one-step short cut. We will use this lesson to reinforce that lesson from the past. I know we should consider the American way, but I think that this "one step short cut" is easier and it reinforces place-value regrouping more fluidly. 405 is also 0Hs + 40Ts and 15Os. Take 1 of the 40Ts for regrouping & you have 39Ts & 15Os now you can see that it immediately becomes 3Hs + 9Ts + 15Os minus 1H + 2Ts + 6Os. So now it is easier to see that the problem is equal to the form 3915 - 126 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Courtney, have you ever been to Silicon Valley? Or any engineering department at a selective university? Have you ever visited any major electronics company? You'll see a significantly higher rate of Asian population there. No, I haven't been to Silicon Valley, but I've grown up around engineers and scientists. My SIL is a research immunologist, as is a cousin, my grandpa was a rocket scientist, my husband works in IT... I live in a university town, etcetera. Yes, as a percentage of the population, Asian-Americans tend to have more white-collar jobs. Just like someone said up-thread (I'm on my phone), it bespeaks more the family culture than innate "better" at STEM. I'm sorry I do not have any statistics in my hand at this moment to support this, but I can testify with all my multinational experience that an average math test score of Asian students is much higher than American students'. Look at this result in 2013 and another result in 2003 and see where the United States stands on. 1) I think there are more reasons than being innately better at math behind test scores, and 2) precisely my point—it's cultural, *for the families who can afford it*. I mean, why do you think Singapore Math curriculum is so popular on this forum? I chose it because I thought it was a better math curriculum than Saxon, personally, at least for the first few years. At this point, it's more challenging for my daughter, who is not gifted or accelerated. ....But there's not so much I can control since doing school is what keeps him satisfied. I don't know why it is hard for you to believe some kids are naturally more self-motivated and interested in academics at a younger age than other average kids are. Oh, I believe those kids exist. My question is, why indulge them to that extent? What is the end goal? And they still have 12+ hours a day to do all the wonderful things other kids do. Also, who said these accelerated/gifted kids can't "schmooze" with others? 1) There's a finite amount of time in the day. If they're doing academics, then they're not practicing social skills—and even though it's verboten to openly fuss about social skills on homeschooling boards, I'm saying it. 2) By the mere fact that these kids are so academically out of step with their peers, they're going to have social difficulties. BTDT. Look, if you're happy, you go for it. That's the beauty of homeschooling. I just don't get the point of it. I have no doubt that my 6-yr-old could do this "advanced" academics, given the same academic structure and reinforcement—but I'm not doing it. I think she's got more important skills to learn right now. At 35, does it matter if she learned her multiplication tables at age 4 or age 9? I don't understand how you call yourself a slacker parent when you criticized other hs moms on Facebook groups for being slack and not having high academic standards in other thread. 1) sarcasm, and 2) I said they had different educational values. It wasn't criticism to say that they had no interest in academic difficulty, it was a statement of fact. Yes, the accent was a bit of a snark, but my Yankee in-laws are the same way—the first time I met my FIL, he told me that my attending graduate school was a waste of time, that you didn't need a college degree to make a good living. We all try to do the best for our own children. Isn't homeschooling all about accepting differences and respecting individual choices? What's so special about being just like other kids at the same age? Well, technically I think homeschool is about not attending public schools full time. But yes, I do try to accept differences and choices. What I was saying is that I don't understand this choice. This does not compute. There is a value in not being too far out of lockstep with your peers—socially and emotionally. There is a value in being ordinary and average. There is a value in not being a special snowflake. There is value in not being a special snowflake. I read that and some of the other quotes I bolded, and I wonder....Were you directing that comment to people in the thread, or were you referring to someone else's children? I have read this post many times. I keep trying to understand your tone. Was a nerve touched? Were you just in a hurry? Did you truly mean to come across this way? I'm glad you were so open and direct. It's good to see how you truly feel. I'm presuming these are the attitudes you will bring with you to your history classes with the Well-Trained Mind Academy. It is always good to learn more about the instructors of potential schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MommytoFour Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I wondered the same thing. Not just because of the tone in this thread, but also the "Yep, Clem done did his larnin' t'day." post in the workbook thread There is value in not being a special snowflake. I read that and some of the other quotes I bolded, and I wonder....Were you directing that comment to people in the thread or were you referring to someone else's children? I have read this post many times. I keep trying to understand your tone. Was a nerve touched? Were you just in a hurry? Did you truly mean to come across this way? I'm glad you were so open and direct. It's good to see how you truly feel. I'm presuming these are the attitudes you will bring with you to your history classes with the Well-Trained Mind Academy. It is always good to learn more about the instructors of potential schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmerRex Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 Please, what is "schmooze with the boss"? Can someone explain it? Nevermind, I see it now with Google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in SA Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 ... we do pre-read all the lessons and work all the problems ahead of my son. This way we can see what the work is in detail and how it will be to solve it and when we see what he misses, we might have insight as to why. Also to pre-read the lessons helps us to know what is expected and to prepare helps us to make easy the teaching for his way of thinking or to make sure we don't teach a conflict to what he knows. This is a rare thing today, and so critical in mathematics instruction. If you take this approach, almost any curriculum can work out. Kudos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Please, what is "schmooze with the boss"? Can someone explain it? "Schmooze with the boss" means flattering the boss. Flattery can mean laughing at their unfunny, stupid jokes to get on their good side and gain favor. Here's an old CNN article. ETA: What you are doing is working, so I can't see why you would need to do any math the American way...Thank-you for explaining. I think I understand completely now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 This is as much of a general observation as anything, but I think my least favorite parental attitude is the "we did it such and such way and my child is really good at blah blah blah and therefore if everyone would just do it such and such way, then they would get the exact same results." Ha. There is a deep, dark part of me that really hopes all such people have another kid who shows them what's what. Anyway, just seeing a little of that in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Please, what is "schmooze with the boss"? Can someone explain it? Nevermind, I see it now with Google. There is no correlation between the ability to flatter someone for personal gain and the ability and/or discipline to do math :) It is also known as "curry favour", "buttering up your boss" and can go all the way to imply someone is having an affair with their boss. If your child is happy with Saxon, just stay with it. After all Saxon goes all the way to Calculus. If and when Saxon no longer works for your child's needs then change. We gave our kids invented word problems verbally on car rides. Nice problem solving practice without needing the child to read or write. Discipline can also be cultivated in the learning of our own native language. I'm too much of a slacker mom so my kids Chinese aren't good yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad astra Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 All I am trying to say is that it would be very wrong to believe most kids are capable of starting 4th grade math in 1st grade if only they had sufficient discipline and sufficient time/effort with an attentive teacher. Okay, I think that I understand. I keep expressing this wrong and I don't know what to say or how, so I am sorry to keep confusing the issue. This is as much of a general observation as anything, but I think my least favorite parental attitude is the "we did it such and such way and my child is really good at blah blah blah and therefore if everyone would just do it such and such way, then they would get the exact same results." Ha. There is a deep, dark part of me that really hopes all such people have another kid who shows them what's what. Anyway, just seeing a little of that in this thread. OP already apologized for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtney_Ostaff Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Courtney, I understand you have a different POV and I won't try to change it. I just don't understand why you feel the need to be sarcastic about or talk down other's different choice in a different situation. As you admitted, you were not just asking out of curiosity. I don't know if it's a cultural thing or just our difference, but I really don't understand why you would only value something "innately better" but not so much the actual hard work and higher achievements as a result. (Actually I'm the one who argued such effort and parental involvement are precisely what made difference in result, and you disagreed. I never said Asian students are innately better at STEM. What do you mean by "for the parents who can afford it"? You mean Asian parents can afford more?) But then... I saw you criticizing others with lower standards, so... ETA: Ok, you insist you were not criticizing them so I take it back. But look, nobody said there is no value in being average or her way is superior. And saying that I'm sacrificing my son's social skills by doing advanced schoolwork with him seems far-fetched. The same thing can be said about homeschooling kids by PS parents and you don't want to hear it. Can we just not judge each other? Pursuing academic rigor doesn't necessarily come at the expense of social skills or happiness, and being relaxed or unschooling is not the best way for everyone. It really depends. I apologize if I came across as critical, I really do. This is a tender subject for me. I really am just confused about the long-term goal here. I have personal experience with advanced coursework and social issues, and it's a long-standing issue for gifted children, especially later in middle school. I'm not trying to judge, and I apologize if I came across that way. I am really just befuddled. I am aware that PS parents worry about social skills--I make social skills a priority in my own children, because I worry and judge myself on this issue. Here's a story this week: I sent my daughter to math camp at the local private school this week, mainly for social skills practice. First day, we walk in, and one of the other mothers (whose daughter announced on the last day of preschool that she wouldn't be coming back because she was going to a better school) asks the instructor what they're doing that day. Teacher says they're working on place value. Mother immediately turns to the daughter and goes, "X, you know that, don't you?!" Child goes, "I don't know." Teacher says, "Well, here we do that in kindergarten." I am so tired of this one upmanship, and parenting (and teaching!) as a competitive sport. Funnily enough, like elmerRex, I think that in the long run, "A bright person with good discipline and work ethic may succeed where a genius person with no discipline and sloppy work ethic may fail." AND "I also see many of the genius people amount to nearly nothing." I totally agree! But, I also see many with good discipline and work ethic (and geniuses with good discipline and work ethic) who flounder at work (and at home!) because they have poor social skills--and that's just unnecessary pain and suffering. Prime example: See me floundering here on this thread with my poor social skills? Here I am, trying to get a point across that I think we'd probably all agree on, and not doing a good job. Instead, I'm :banghead: when I should be all: :coolgleamA: We will try and reply to every ones comments. Courtney_Ostaff, on 29 Jul 2014 - 7:26 PM, said: 5th grade is 10/11 years old. So yes, it's advanced, if he's six. By definition. I should be more careful with my vocabulary. My son is not gifted, but his math skills are ahead. We don't know if he counts as accelerated, because he was taught over the same amount of time that other kids would have, but he was taught him in a different way. I suspect that you have excellent math skills yourself, if you can teach problem solving without a curriculum. Well, yes, compared to the average US adult, both my sons parents do have excellent math skills, but really its just arithmetic. If you understand arithmetic and have a reference guide, then you should be able to teach it. It was not our ideal situation to teach without a specific curriculum, but it was a conscious choice made for our situation. a) I don't understand why you would begin math instruction as toddlers. B) I'm curious as to what you would do if your child said, "No, I don't want to do this." a--I don't understand why you would NOT begin math instruction as toddlers, so I don't know quite how to phrase a best-response. It is not as though we are doing something completely unheard of either. Many (but of course not all) Preschoolers and Kindergartners who attend Montessori-inspired schools can do the same math that my son can do and at the same age... b--I don't know about all kids and all parents, but WE can not force OUR child to learn X. This is why my son still can not read well at all, he said to his dad "Baba, I want to read like R." But when we tried to teach him, we didn't do as good of a job and he wasn't ready to learn to read (from an inexperienced teacher). It didn't take long to see that he wasn't sincere in his lessons and he wasn't cooperative so we asked him again if he wanted to read and he said "No, Mama and Baba, I don't like doing letters and words. I don't want to learn to read anymore." So we stopped reading lessons immediately. When he is 7, we will insist he learn to read more seriously, but we may get him a tutor for reading as English isn't our native language Why would you do this? What's the point? Are they going to graduate from high school in the 8th grade, get a job early, and pay taxes earlier? I disagree that Asian students are superior at STEM occupations, by the way. I don't think the research bears that out. Time is limited, so all that time spent on academics at a young age is at the expense of something else. Isn't that "else" important, too? I mean, we all know really smart people who get fired because they can't schmooze with the boss, and we all know complete numbskulls who keep their job because they impress the right people. Personally, I'd rather my child kept the job, even if they didn't take calculus in 8th grade. But hey, I'm a slacker American parent with mouthy, lazy kids.... We all have different reasons and one of ours was to teach discipline. A bright person with good discipline and work ethic may succeed where a genius person with no discipline and sloppy work ethic may fail. My son is not gifted, but there are a lot of kids around him who are gifted and tons more non-gifted but bright or very bright kids. Some of them are learning discipline, some of them are not. From my generation and my parents generation, I have seen how the discipline and work ethic is serving everyone who possesses this trait. I also see many of the genius people amount to nearly nothing. Yes, time is limited, but we can not change that reality for anyone, not even our beloved children. There is an opportunity cost to living. By being on the internet and conversing with you, we can't be in bed asleep or watching TV but that is reality. We don't know what you are getting at with the "else" because 1) We honestly, don't know what "schmooze with the boss" means, can you explain? and 2) Think about this--3-7 year old kids have nothing but time on their hands. They don't work jobs, they don't have to commute, pay bills, or plan for their future, budget, pay taxes or worry about anything except maybe "will I get chocolate milk and baklava tonight?" TV and video games are the biggest waste of time for the 3-7 yo kid that I can think of, our kids don't have the option to watch TV or play video games when they want to. And anyway who said that because our child does math he doesn't do anything else? ALL the activities available to him are not beneficial, the non-beneficial ones we don't worry about and we give him other activities. Every single child that my son knows attends Kumon and has since they were 3. My son didn't go to Kumon, we didn't want that competition, stress or boredom for him. Everyone in the family was mad that we didn't put him in Kumon, felt he would be behind or not learn math, discipline and be behind when he went to K. Well, you can not imagine the fuss when we did not put him in Kindergarten and instead let him stay home and when his relatives refused to watch him anymore, thinking this would force us to put him in school, we just hired our beloved part time nanny, full time. All the other kids we know are forced to take music lessons, my kids did the 2 terms of "Music and Movement" classes that the center offered and then we brought them home. They don't have to play violin if they don't want to. WE can't afford it anyway, why force hardship on everyone involved? We don't do a bunch of academics with toddlers--just math and reading. Instead of adding in more topics, our kids go to the park, the cinema, and the indoor pool. My son plays football (aka Soccer) and we buy them board games. Our kids go to museums and theater shows, to story times at the library and the bookstore and the community center. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain the logic to me. Obviously, I don't know anyone face-to-face who does this that I feel comfortable asking about their motivations. I find this absolutely fascinating. It made me laugh to read the "why would you not do this" response, because it's so diametrically opposite of many ideas about childrearing--and yet, I completely agree that A bright person with good discipline and work ethic may succeed where a genius person with no discipline and sloppy work ethic may fail. I think Think about this--3-7 year old kids have nothing but time on their hands. a very interesting POV, and one, quite frankly, that never occurred to me. I had and have serious goals for my 3-7 year old that don't revolve around academics. I find this fascinating: Every single child that my son knows attends Kumon and has since they were 3. That is a huge cultural difference. Again, I thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. There is value in not being a special snowflake. I read that and some of the other quotes I bolded, and I wonder....Were you directing that comment to people in the thread, or were you referring to someone else's children? I have read this post many times. I keep trying to understand your tone. Was a nerve touched? Were you just in a hurry? Did you truly mean to come across this way? I'm glad you were so open and direct. It's good to see how you truly feel. I'm presuming these are the attitudes you will bring with you to your history classes with the Well-Trained Mind Academy. It is always good to learn more about the instructors of potential schools. Yes, a nerve was touched. Yes, I was in a hurry--I was nursing a screaming baby. I'm not sure which way you took it. I have very poor personal experiences and strong feelings about social isolation and gifted children, and poor social skills, and the adult expectations on gifted children, and the self-imposed expectations that gifted children have. It's one reason I feel so strongly about making sure my kids have really good social skills. Furthermore, most families I know who homeschool make financial sacrifices in order to do so, and we're lucky that we're able to make those sacrifices. If rent money depended on working 2 jobs, it'd be ... well, maybe not impossible, but certainly nearly so. Just think about that mother who was arrested for leaving her daughter in the park! She needed her daughter to be in some kind of childcare that public school generally provides. I wondered the same thing. Not just because of the tone in this thread, but also the "Yep, Clem done did his larnin' t'day." post in the workbook thread *chuckle* I'm from WV. When I'm tired, that's how I talk, even though my elementary school teachers did their level best to drill it out of us, on the basis that we'd never get "real" jobs if employers thought we were hicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm glad you're enjoying Saxon, however, using a program for 1-2 *weeks* is not enough time to develop an informed opinion of it. After you've used it for a year--or better, 2-3 years, let us know how it's going. My problem with Saxon and advanced students (and I used Saxon for 3 years with advanced students) is that it is too much repetition and not enough real challenge. But that is how it worked for our family--YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gil Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm glad you're enjoying Saxon, however, using a program for 1-2 *weeks* is not enough time to develop an informed opinion of it. After you've used it for a year--or better, 2-3 years, let us know how it's going. Well, Elmer did say "early impressions" and not "informed opinion developed over sufficient time" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Well, Elmer did say "early impressions" and not "informed opinion developed over sufficient time" I can't tell you the number of resources that I had favorable early impressions of and later came to loathe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I apologize if I came across as critical, I really do. This is a tender subject for me. I really am just confused about the long-term goal here. I have personal experience with advanced coursework and social issues, and it's a long-standing issue for gifted children, especially later in middle school. I'm not trying to judge, and I apologize if I came across that way. I am really just befuddled. I am aware that PS parents worry about social skills--I make social skills a priority in my own children, because I worry and judge myself on this issue. Here's a story this week: I sent my daughter to math camp at the local private school this week, mainly for social skills practice. First day, we walk in, and one of the other mothers (whose daughter announced on the last day of preschool that she wouldn't be coming back because she was going to a better school) asks the instructor what they're doing that day. Teacher says they're working on place value. Mother immediately turns to the daughter and goes, "X, you know that, don't you?!" Child goes, "I don't know." Teacher says, "Well, here we do that in kindergarten." I am so tired of this one upmanship, and parenting (and teaching!) as a competitive sport. Funnily enough, like elmerRex, I think that in the long run, "A bright person with good discipline and work ethic may succeed where a genius person with no discipline and sloppy work ethic may fail." AND "I also see many of the genius people amount to nearly nothing." I totally agree! But, I also see many with good discipline and work ethic (and geniuses with good discipline and work ethic) who flounder at work (and at home!) because they have poor social skills--and that's just unnecessary pain and suffering. Prime example: See me floundering here on this thread with my poor social skills? Here I am, trying to get a point across that I think we'd probably all agree on, and not doing a good job. Instead, I'm :banghead: when I should be all: :coolgleamA: I really appreciate you taking the time to explain the logic to me. Obviously, I don't know anyone face-to-face who does this that I feel comfortable asking about their motivations. I find this absolutely fascinating. It made me laugh to read the "why would you not do this" response, because it's so diametrically opposite of many ideas about childrearing--and yet, I completely agree that A bright person with good discipline and work ethic may succeed where a genius person with no discipline and sloppy work ethic may fail. I think Think about this--3-7 year old kids have nothing but time on their hands. a very interesting POV, and one, quite frankly, that never occurred to me. I had and have serious goals for my 3-7 year old that don't revolve around academics. I find this fascinating: Every single child that my son knows attends Kumon and has since they were 3. That is a huge cultural difference. Again, I thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. Yes, a nerve was touched. Yes, I was in a hurry--I was nursing a screaming baby. I'm not sure which way you took it. I have very poor personal experiences and strong feelings about social isolation and gifted children, and poor social skills, and the adult expectations on gifted children, and the self-imposed expectations that gifted children have. It's one reason I feel so strongly about making sure my kids have really good social skills. Furthermore, most families I know who homeschool make financial sacrifices in order to do so, and we're lucky that we're able to make those sacrifices. If rent money depended on working 2 jobs, it'd be ... well, maybe not impossible, but certainly nearly so. Just think about that mother who was arrested for leaving her daughter in the park! She needed her daughter to be in some kind of childcare that public school generally provides. *chuckle* I'm from WV. When I'm tired, that's how I talk, even though my elementary school teachers did their level best to drill it out of us, on the basis that we'd never get "real" jobs if employers thought we were hicks. I'm perplexed. Are you joking, or are you serious? I honestly don't even know how to respond... This is certainly enlightening.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad astra Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I apologize if I came across as critical, I really do. This is a tender subject for me. I really am just confused about the long-term goal here. I have personal experience with advanced coursework and social issues, and it's a long-standing issue for gifted children, especially later in middle school. I'm not trying to judge, and I apologize if I came across that way. I am really just befuddled. I am aware that PS parents worry about social skills--I make social skills a priority in my own children, because I worry and judge myself on this issue. ... Funnily enough, like elmerRex, I think that in the long run, "A bright person with good discipline and work ethic may succeed where a genius person with no discipline and sloppy work ethic may fail." AND "I also see many of the genius people amount to nearly nothing." I totally agree! But, I also see many with good discipline and work ethic (and geniuses with good discipline and work ethic) who flounder at work (and at home!) because they have poor social skills--and that's just unnecessary pain and suffering. Courtney, I'm sorry if I came across as harsh, too. Like elmerRex, English is not my native language so it takes me an extra effort to choose the right wording and express myself as I intend to while at the same time trying not to make obvious grammatical mistakes. I know you've gone out of your way to help other homeschooling newbies and I appreciate it. To answer your question, there's really no long-term goal. Things can always change even after my son goes to college or gets his first job, and whatever he decides to do for living is up to him. I'm just trying to help him find his potential at his pace and live his life to the fullest. As a kid, I was gifted but have lost so many great opportunities (extra-curricula, gifted programs, national competitions, scholarships, etc.) because I didn't have good guidance. I grew up in the system of rat-race and am glad my kids are not. It's not a race for us, either; like you said, there are so much more in life and this forum happens to be the place where I discuss academics. While I agree with you that good social skills are as important, perhaps more so, than one's academic skills, I disagree that being advanced in academics cause social difficulties or isolation. I think personality varies to a large extent among gifted/accelerated kids. My son is probably not PG, but he is bright (or gifted) and the sweetest social butterfly you'd ever meet. He can make friends with any kid at any age he sees. On the other hand, I can already see the potential social difficulties that my extremely-shy-and-stubborn daughter, who is speech-delayed and probably average (or below average) in academic aptitude, may have in the future and it worries me (while I'm not worried at all about her falling behind her peers in other skills). For both kids, the best and all I can do is to teach them good manners and expose them to as many social situations as possible. Just like many others here, social skills IS my top priority when it comes to homeschooling. Anyway, I guess I was talking too much when it's not even my thread because I could relate myself to OP in many ways. Hope we all can continue to support/share each other's journey. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 This is as much of a general observation as anything, but I think my least favorite parental attitude is the "we did it such and such way and my child is really good at blah blah blah and therefore if everyone would just do it such and such way, then they would get the exact same results." Ha. There is a deep, dark part of me that really hopes all such people have another kid who shows them what's what. Anyway, just seeing a little of that in this thread. yeah, my younger taught me some humility. Hope you were not referring to my posts, as I am a complete supporter of whatever works. However, I also think that gifted kids need to be listened to when they say something is boring. Not saying this isn't true of the OPer, but might be for someone reading this thread. Some people just need permission to do things out of lock step with a set curriculum. There is also the tendency to keep accelerated kids accelerated. To get so excited that your kid is xx many years ahead. To be proud. To push. I have so been there when my older took 3 years to get through the AoPS intro algebra book. :toetap05: So what I am hoping to convey is that you can accelerate your kids to calculus by age 12, without slowing down to do the other half of the math curriculum - the critical thinking/problem solving. But then you have a kid in no-man's land -- into college-level courses without the skill to do the equally important other half. Once again NOT saying this of the OPer, but saying it to those reading who may not fully realise (as I didn't ) that the other half is equally important and equally time consuming. Ruth in NZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 ....But there's not so much I can control since doing school is what keeps him satisfied. I don't know why it is hard for you to believe some kids are naturally more self-motivated and interested in academics at a younger age than other average kids are. Oh, I believe those kids exist. My question is, why indulge them to that extent? What is the end goal? [snip] 1) There's a finite amount of time in the day. If they're doing academics, then they're not practicing social skills—and even though it's verboten to openly fuss about social skills on homeschooling boards, I'm saying it. 2) By the mere fact that these kids are so academically out of step with their peers, they're going to have social difficulties. BTDT. [snip] I just don't get the point of it. I have no doubt that my 6-yr-old could do this "advanced" academics, given the same academic structure and reinforcement—but I'm not doing it. I think she's got more important skills to learn right now. At 35, does it matter if she learned her multiplication tables at age 4 or age 9? I'll take a stab at this, Courtney. Giving gifted average work teaches them 1) everything is easy, 2) I'm smarter than everyone else, and 3) I don't have to work hard to succeed. These are terrible lessons. This is why I ramp it up until the work is at a difficult level for my child. He needs to know struggle. Socially, having known struggle, he can actually better relate to his peers even if he is working years ahead. There is a value in not being too far out of lockstep with your peers—socially and emotionally. There is a value in being ordinary and average. There is a value in not being a special snowflake . Courtney, some kids just aren't average, and no wishing that they were will make them so. Ruth in NZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 And yet plenty of people, including mathy and gifted students, have enjoyed and flourished with Saxon. I'm beginning to think we are talking two different things when we use the word 'gifted.' And perhaps I should pull my head in, or just keep my comments on gifted education to the accelerated board. However, it is a fact that Saxon will not get you to the IMO (International Math Olympiad), which is the premier contest for young gifted math students. It just does not teach that way of thinking. A student could use it when she was young, but would need to do something else by middle school to have a chance of making it to the USAMO or IMO. A seriously gifted student would not be challenged by Saxon. But Saxon does very well with what Saxon sets out to do. I have used it and will continue to do so for the students that it was designed for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I am using gifted to mean a child who is above average in skill and/or basic comprehension capabilities in math. I don't necessarily mean the top 2% of IQs. There is a spectrum of giftedness even in mathematics, and it isn't all served well by the same selections. deleted for privacy Math isn't just about the challenge, it's about the speed, automaticity, and application. This is where my older son would absolutely disagree with you. For him it is all about challenge, and that is why Saxon would never ever fit. I think we are just talking about degrees of giftedness. I don't think we actually disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm beginning to think we are talking two different things when we use the word 'gifted.' And perhaps I should pull my head in, or just keep my comments on gifted education to the accelerated board. I think we're just talking about different children. Even if a child is identified gifted, scores in the upper part of the 99th percentile on math tests, and does very well in math contests, that doesn't mean that he or she is going to follow the same path as another child who also meets that description. FWIW, I can only think of one acquaintance who placed highly in a Math Olympiad -- national, not international -- and that student's math abilities were far beyond those of classmates in a top-2% gifted program, even after skipping a couple of grades. So I don't think the experiences of most families on the accelerated board are necessarily going to be a close match with yours, either. However, it is a fact that Saxon will not get you to the IMO (International Math Olympiad), which is the premier contest for young gifted math students. It just does not teach that way of thinking. A student could use it when she was young, but would need to do something else by middle school to have a chance of making it to the USAMO or IMO. Math leagues were created for students in regular schools, using regular curricula. "Contest math" would typically be done as a supplemental activity. For instance, this site says that the math club should meet for one hour a week. (Presumably the most keen students would do a lot more practicing on their own.) http://www.moems.org/program.htm It seems to me that it would be pretty unfair if some very highly gifted and hard-working students ended up being excluded because they weren't able to follow a special full-time curriculum for a few years beforehand. I don't think this is how the contests worked in the past, and I hope it still isn't the case today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I think we're just talking about different children. Even if a child is identified gifted, scores in the upper part of the 99th percentile on math tests, and does very well in math contests, that doesn't mean that he or she is going to follow the same path as another child who also meets that description. FWIW, I can only think of one acquaintance who placed highly in a Math Olympiad -- national, not international -- and that student's math abilities were far beyond those of classmates in a top-2% gifted program, even after skipping a couple of grades. So I don't think the experiences of most families on the accelerated board are necessarily going to be a close match with yours, either. Math leagues were created for students in regular schools, using regular curricula. "Contest math" would typically be done as a supplemental activity. For instance, this site says that the math club should meet for one hour a week. (Presumably the most keen students would do a lot more practicing on their own.) http://www.moems.org/program.htm It seems to me that it would be pretty unfair if some very highly gifted and hard-working students ended up being excluded because they weren't able to follow a special full-time curriculum for a few years beforehand. I don't think this is how the contests worked in the past, and I hope it still isn't the case today. You're right, of course. When it is your child, the level of giftedness seems quite normal. I'll quietly back down and let you guys discuss the top 2% gifted you are referring to. :leaving: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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