What to do if a family is not teaching their children

[Haiku]

In my opinion, the OP doesn't have enough reason to call the authorities to check out a family for which she has no real information. She is relying on her imagination rather than actual facts. 

 

Two things.

 

One: If the OP believes there is neglect, she has a moral duty (imo) to report it (in this case, not to CPS but to educational authorities, which it appears the OP has done). Those whose job it is to make the call on whether it's truly neglect can then handle it. I had a job for which I was a mandated reporter for years. I have seen far too many people who are witnessing abuse and neglect but don't report it because it doesn't seem "nice" to report another family ... or they worry they may be wrong ... or that people may get mad at them. To me, a person who worked with abused and neglected kids, those concerns are secondary to the well-being of children.

 

Two: We'll have to agree to disagree. The OP stated she has known the family for multiple years, the mother has on more than one occasion left her young-ish children unsupervised for long amounts of time, the mother has more than once claimed that she can't be bothered to educate her kids because the time just gets away from her while she is off doing more important things, and the children are not progressing. I think that is sufficient reason to report suspected neglect.

 

Just out of curiosity, and not because I am trying to trap you, is there any scenario you would describe as educational neglect?

[Jane Elliot]

I can't stop wondering about the op's response to the question about whether or not she had actually tested them. It was basically, maybe I did and maybe I didn't. If she did test them, and it was at the mother's request, then the mother must have at least some degree of concern. If she tested without the mother's knowledge, then that's overstepping. If she didn't actually test them, then she is doing some speculating about the kids' educational level or at least the reasons behind their levels. There's probably another option that I'm not thinking of.  

 

Like 8, I would have given a flippant response to questions I deemed intrusive and consequently could have been completely misunderstood. I don't really worry about what anyone thinks about our homeschool at this point (I've graduated several who have done extremely well), but in the past onlookers (even close friends) could have drawn any number of conclusions based on isolated pieces of information about our homeschool at different points in time.

 

 

[ocelotmom]

For those mentioning Khan Academy - at this point it is not particularly accessible for someone who isn't reading well (I'd say at least at a 3rd grade level). Lots of word problems, even in the Early Math.

[albeto.]

Two things.

 

One: If the OP believes there is neglect, she has a moral duty (imo) to report it (in this case, not to CPS but to educational authorities,which it appears the OP has done). Those whose job it is to make the call on whether it's truly neglect can then handle it. I had a job for which I was a mandated reporter for years. I have seen far to many people who are witnessing abuse and neglect but don't report it because it doesn't seem "nice" to report another family ... or they worry they may be wrong ... or that people may get mad at them. To me, a person who worked with abused and neglected kids, those concerns are secondary to the well-being of children.

 

Two: We'll have to agree to disagree. The OP stated she has known the family for multiple years, the mother has on more than one occasion left her young-ish children unsupervised for long amounts of time, the mother has frequently claimed that she can't be bothered to educate her kids because the time just gets away from her while she is off doing more important things, and the children are not progressing. I think that is sufficient reason to report suspected neglect.

 

Just our of curiosity, and not because I am trying to trap you, is there any scenario you would describe as educational neglect?

 

In response:

 

One: If the OP believers there is neglect, I agree she has a moral duty to report it. In my opinion she has provided no reasonable support for this belief. It is also a moral duty to make sure that prior to potentially traumatizing children, one has actual reason, not imaginary. I don't mean that flippantly, but rather the idea that she has a moral duty to make sure her imagination isn't running away with her (and I think this thread supported that, at least early on). I agree with what you say, but I just don't see evidence for neglect in this thread. But honestly, I read the earlier posts so long ago (it seems long ago to me) that I could be totally missing something. It wouldn't be the first time, but I hope if I'm wrong, someone will point that out to me. 

 

Two: I've known my neighbor for ten years, we see each other often, we chat, but I don't know really her family dynamic. I really don't, and she doesn't know mine. I do consider her a friend, even though I don't really know her so well. If I were to be the reason her children were taken out of her home by legal authorities - even temporarily - I would have to be dead sure I was doing the right thing by the kids. I mean, my god, how could I face someone I considered a friend if I did that and it wasn't anything more than misunderstanding and nosiness on my part? The thing is, the arguments the OP has presented here really don't justify calling the authorities if for no other reason than they're not uncommon realities in many unschooling families. It would make more sense to me for the OP to consult an unschooling community rather than a classical education community to decide if this unschooling environment as she understands it is educationally negligent. I mean, that's like asking the community of symphony players if a particular rap song is over the top - they're two totally different approaches and philosophies with different histories and expectations. 

 

In answer to your last question, I don't think you're trying to trap me. You've been very kind in this exchange and I've enjoyed this discussion with you. I can imagine educational neglect, yes. It would take more than knowing some of the kids are behind in reading (one is not, the others we don't know - that's not insignificant to me). It would take more than a lack of formal classes. It would also take more familiarity with the parent's philosophy, interaction with the children, and overall trend of well-being. I'm not suggesting the OP's acquaintance isn't negligent, only that there isn't enough information shared here to suspect that. 

[maize]

Albeto, do you think that viewing the situation from an unschooling perspective is equally valid whether or not the parent/family consider themselves unschoolers?

 

We don't know for sure one way or the other in this case, I'm just curious to know whether your perspective on the situation would be different for a family who had intentionally adopted an unschooling approach to education than for a family who intended to educate in a standard manner but just never got around to it.

[Pen]

I think for the moment that --assuming this is a real situation in first place -- what the OP says she is doing is okay. If the children seem to be doing well aside from education, and if the educational authority won't do anything, then I think it makes sense to try to help the children with their educational situation rather than go to CPS at this point (that step could be taken later if OP felt it were needed). And it is not that I feel that education is less important than other areas, I also think this would apply if someone felt someone was not adequately dressing their children or taking them to dentist. To give clothes to the family, to offer to transport to and pay for dental care, etc., could be a better answer all around than to call CPS. I know a family who has their next door neighbor kids over to dinner almost every night because the parents do not seem to be providing dinners. Sometimes it does take a village to raise children, and sometimes that is better than a governmental approach.  I do think that a neglect of education is very different from active physical abuse, where I would say a call to CPS would be necessary without delay. 

 

The children have apparently had their educational needs neglected (as OP describes and sees it) for a long time. A week or a month longer is not going to make as much difference in further traumatizing the children IMO as a too hasty involvement of CPS could.

 

I do think it would have been helpful for OP to have mentioned the calls to the school district and to the ex-CPS person and the results of those sooner.

 

 

[maize]

My interpretation was that OP had made those calls in the last day or so, after considering the situation, discussing it on this thread, and contacting the state homeschool association.

[8filltheheart]

nm

[Haiku]

Question asked of OP: Mom leaving for the week with a 13yo in charge while Dad is at work?

 

OP's response: It is pretty normal.

 

See post 15.

 

[8filltheheart]

nm

[justamouse]

I was babysitting many kids all on my own at 13 into the wee hours of the morning. I don't think there's anything awful about a 13 yo keeping the house going until Dad gets home. 

I had a Gf in middle school whose mother died. She was the oldest and she would take care of the house and her siblings while her dad worked. She did that all the way up until she went to college.

[albeto.]

Albeto, do you think that viewing the situation from an unschooling perspective is equally valid whether or not the parent/family consider themselves unschoolers?

No, I don't think the perspective makes a difference. When you're talking about calling CPS in on a family you're talking about legally defined abuse and negligence. There's the potential to traumatize children by forcefully removing them from the home, perhaps from each other, and living among strangers for a time. One's perspective is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether or not the children are being abused or neglected. I just don't think that low reading level and a parent saying "I don't bother" is sufficient to call in CPS.

 

We don't know for sure one way or the other in this case, I'm just curious to know whether your perspective on the situation would be different for a family who had intentionally adopted an unschooling approach to education than for a family who intended to educate in a standard manner but just never got around to it.

 

Hmm, good question. I'll admit I'm frustrated by the idea that a parent would deny her children a free and appropriate education because it's unbiblical. That screams to me all kinds of messed conspiracy-theory worthy fear-mongering about Satan trying to get a foothold in a child's soul. That's not just weird, that's potentially detrimental to these children, and a whole generation of kids who are growing up in similar philosophies. But... it's not illegal in this country to take religion to the edge of the law. It's not illegal because we live in a free nation where one can practice their religion so long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of another. Are these children being denied their rights? Perhaps so, but the OP hasn't provided an argument for this. She's relying on reading skill and a mother's comment to make this call. That's hardly sufficient reason to call in a legal authority who may be compelled by the law to remove the children until the burden of proof of providing a safe home environment has been met (they may not be, I don't know). 

 

But it's the same with education. It's not illegal in this country to take an educational philosophy to the edge of the law. We allow for Tiger moms who manipulate, shame, coerce, hurt young children in pursuit of their educational goals. We allow for religious schools to teach erroneous information and purposefully confuse opinion with fact. By the same token, we allow for lazy moms to rationalize their lack of effort. If the children's education is being neglected, it should be addressed. That's their right: if the parents cannot or will not protect their children's rights, the state should intervene. But low reading skill and a mom's comment is hardly sufficient reason to assume the rights of the children are being denied. 

 

On a personal note, I don't much care for [my understanding of] what the OP's acquaintance is doing either. My imagination is just as active as anyone's here. But my imagination can't be relied on as fact any more than the OP's. I'd like to see education approached differently in the US in general. I'd like to see more reliance based on fact and reliable information. The state of Texas doesn't think science is important enough to require. Can you imagine? Not important? That's like saying math isn't important. The University of Florida just made a man who does comprehend scientific fact, or the importance of it, as president. The state of Louisiana supports erroneous ideas and arguably ridiculous beliefs with taxpayers' funding. So much for separation of church and state, right? I wish there was as much shame felt for neglecting education as there is for promoting racist ideas - not just personally, but at the state and national level. I think education is not only important, I think it's vital for us as a nation, and as a species. Not only can we not compete on a global scale when held back by archaic, arguably superstitious thinking, we won't be able to address the problems we as a species are quickly running up against when we defer to religious beliefs over objective evidence and reasoned theories. I don't think the issues themselves are affected by the perspective of the one looking at them. The ways in which we address these issues are, but not the issues themselves. So, I don't think my opinion would be too much different about this one family, only because I'm trying to look at this objectively. Then again, the opinion that I'm looking at this objectively is a subjective opinion, lol. 

[Justmeandyou]

I've gotten a lot of PMs asking for an update.  There isn't anything to update, no changes.  Thanks for the concern.

[Tiramisu]

I've gotten a lot of PMs asking for an update.  There isn't anything to update, no changes.  Thanks for the concern.

 

I know you probably want this thread to die, but I'd like to suggest recommending that the mom get counselling that might help her get on track.

 

I have known families like this with mothers who have been overly committed outside the home with their personal endeavors. I've seen an private intervention happen with one family that actually made a tremendous difference for the kids. I've also known a family with a child who developed major problems as a teen due to emotional issues created in part by an untreated learning disability and a lack of education. The family eventually sent him to boarding school where he is now being educated, but there has been a lot of pain for all in the process. With these, and another family I've known, the moms were clearly dealing with their own difficulties from bipolar to ADHD. All of the moms recognized the problem but needed help to make a change. They could have not done it alone without being forced into it, one way or another.

[Justmeandyou]

I know you probably want this thread to die, but I'd like to suggest recommending that the mom get counselling that might help her get on track.

 

I have known families like this with mothers who have been overly committed outside the home with their personal endeavors. I've seen an private intervention happen with one family that actually made a tremendous difference for the kids. I've also known a family with a child who developed major problems as a teen due to emotional issues created in part by an untreated learning disability and a lack of education. The family eventually sent him to boarding school where he is now being educated, but there has been a lot of pain for all in the process. With these, and another family I've known, the moms were clearly dealing with their own difficulties from bipolar to ADHD. All of the moms recognized the problem but needed help to make a change. They could have not done it alone without being forced into it, one way or another.

 

Yes, I agree.  This is what I am gently trying to do.  Thanks

[Orthodox6]

It sounds as if OP, whose depth of relationship with the family seems not to have been revealed, acted as she believed right, and had no need of this thread.

 

As best as I can construct the situation, I think that I would have continued to dig my own garden, and leave the family in peace until and/or unless a member of the family asked for my help. Perhaps I err with this viewpoint; however, this is my viewpoint at this point in time.

[AimeeM]

 

But the OP doesn't know how involved the mother is. A mother saying she doesn't do anything and children who are behind in reading levels is hardly reason to call outside authorities. To jump to conclusions because she imagines the worst case scenario is unreasonable. To potentially disrupt the children's home because she's not satisfied with the level of educational instruction is unethical.

 

 

In my opinion, the OP doesn't have enough reason to call the authorities to check out a family for which she has no real information. She is relying on her imagination rather than actual facts. 

Maybe I missed something, but from what I've read thus far, how could you assert that she's relying on imagination and not fact? The mom SAID that she doesn't instruct the children at all because she has better things to do. Period. The mom SAID that the children are on their own most of the time. These aren't leaps that the OP made - the statements came straight from the horse's mouth.

[albeto.]

Maybe I missed something, but from what I've read thus far, how could you assert that she's relying on imagination and not fact? The mom SAID that she doesn't instruct the children at all because she has better things to do. Period. The mom SAID that the children are on their own most of the time. These aren't leaps that the OP made - the statements came straight from the horse's mouth.

 

 

People lie. ;)

 

But seriously, if I felt someone was being nosy about my kids or my family, I'd make a dismissive comment. In my mind, I might actually think I'm being humorous. I wouldn't mean it as a lie, it would be meant as a dismissive comment intended to convey the idea this line of questioning isn't welcome. Calling CPS is a serious thing with serious consequences. When I started homeschooling, I looked into options of what I should do if the police or truant officer came to my home. I can't imagine doing that to another family without serious reason. A comment is hardly serious reason. Lagging reading skills is hardly serious reason. In the absence of any evidence, the only thing left to go by is imagination. 

[AimeeM]

People lie. ;)

 

But seriously, if I felt someone was being nosy about my kids or my family, I'd make a dismissive comment. In my mind, I might actually think I'm being humorous. I wouldn't mean it as a lie, it would be meant as a dismissive comment intended to convey the idea this line of questioning isn't welcome. Calling CPS is a serious thing with serious consequences. When I started homeschooling, I looked into options of what I should do if the police or truant officer came to my home. I can't imagine doing that to another family without serious reason. A comment is hardly serious reason. Lagging reading skills is hardly serious reason. In the absence of any evidence, the only thing left to go by is imagination. 

I understand that people lie, but you cannot assume they are lying - if you did, nothing would be worthy of intervention.

 

"I robbed a bank" to a cop.

"I shot my neighbor" to a homicide detective.

"I don't feed my kids" to a CPS worker.

"I beat my children" to a CPS worker.

 

Jokes like above, to professionals in certain fields, are GOING to get the same reaction as "I leave my children alone all day, and I do nothing to educate them, because I have better things to do"... to a woman who works, or did work, as an Educational Specialist.

[Justmeandyou]

People lie. ;)

 

But seriously, if I felt someone was being nosy about my kids or my family, I'd make a dismissive comment. In my mind, I might actually think I'm being humorous. I wouldn't mean it as a lie, it would be meant as a dismissive comment intended to convey the idea this line of questioning isn't welcome. Calling CPS is a serious thing with serious consequences. When I started homeschooling, I looked into options of what I should do if the police or truant officer came to my home. I can't imagine doing that to another family without serious reason. A comment is hardly serious reason. Lagging reading skills is hardly serious reason. In the absence of any evidence, the only thing left to go by is imagination. 

 

I am not lying.  I am not relying on one comment.  I am not making things up with a wild imagination.  I am not being nosy. 

 

Have you missed the part where I have (repeatedly) stated that called CPS is not something I want to do?

 

'Lagging' reading skills is what you call someone that is a few month to a year or so behind.  Children that have literally zero literacy skills at ages 8 to 13 is NOT lagging behind.  Per the teaching parent, they are not being taught at all.  You seem to want to argue that I don't know anything about this family or these children, therefore no intervention should take place. You are mistaken.  From these forums and others, I am aware that you like to pick fights and argue just for the sake of arguing, but you assertions are completely and utterly incorrect. 

[Orthodox6]

I think that, rather, there are some of us who question the need for you to run interference with the family. You have done so because you chose to do so. Not much left to add other than best wishes for their welfare.

[Justmeandyou]

I think that, rather, there are some of us who question the need for you to run interference with the family. You have done so because you chose to do so. Not much left to add other than best wishes for their welfare.

 

I am trying to help 4 children. I would like to see them be able read, do basic math and write simple sentences.  I don't think that is such a huge thing.  If I do nothing, then they grow up completely illiterate.  Is it truly preferable for kids to grow up unable to read or write than for someone to try and help the family? 

[Orthodox6]

Best wishes to OP as well.

[Harriet Vane]

I am trying to help 4 children. I would like to see them be able read, do basic math and write simple sentences.  I don't think that is such a huge thing.  If I do nothing, then they grow up completely illiterate.  Is it truly preferable for kids to grow up unable to read or write than for someone to try and help the family? 

 

You've taken a bit of a beating by some in this thread.

 

I believe you.

 

I faced a similar situation. Someone very dear to me was not homeschooling her children. I spent a lot of time in the home, and I was someone whom this person considered a confidante. She told me honestly just how little they were doing. She attributed it at the time to a crazy life and lots of pregnancy. We later learned (years later) that her inability to cope was due to an undiagnosed and ultimately terminal illness.

 

I received the same types of responses to my queries on TWTM board that you are receiving.

 

I came to two crossroads points with this family.

 

My earlier crossroads was to decide that the children were definitely loved, fed, clothed, cared for, and not abused. They were never, ever hit by either parent. If anything, they were under-disciplined. Therefore I had no concern for their physical or emotional well-being, and there was no criminal abuse or neglect. I chose therefore to provide resources for the family, and to try to urge them to actually do school. The result was years of cycling through the same conversations, her confessing and despairing, me pleading and trying to show her how to do the simplest, easiest beginning steps of homeschooling. All to no avail.

 

This brought me to the next crossroads, at which I faced the fact that this would never change. Just as I came to this place emotionally, though, the reason for the lack of education (and generally lack of coping with many parts of her life) became apparent when she was diagnosed with a terminal illness. As this crossroads, I chose not to push the issue of schooling because it was important that the family treasure the time they had together before she died.

 

Eventually, the schooling was addressed in two ways. First, through involvement with a co-op. This got the ball rolling. Then, later, the children were placed in public school. They were all placed one grade level than they should have been according to their age. They did fine in school right from the start, and are now thriving.

 

If we had not discovered the terminal illness, I still would not have reported to DCFS. There was no criminal abuse or neglect, and the children were loved and cared for. I hated the fact that they were largely uneducated and had many a sleepless night worrying about it, but ultimately felt that less official interventions were all I could do.

 

YMMV. Just wanted to affirm to you that I believe you. I know how hard this is. I respect the care and thought you are putting into this. :grouphug:

[albeto.]

I am not lying.  I am not relying on one comment.  I am not making things up with a wild imagination.  I am not being nosy.

Not you! I wasn't referring to you (or your acquaintance) as lying. My point was that your acquaintance might not have been particularly accurate when she told you she doesn't have time to teach her kids. I hope you understand now that I did not mean to imply you.

 

I don't think your imagination is particularly wild, either. You say you're not relying on one comment. Other than the reading level, I don't know what other information you have.

 

If someone were to take the time out of her day to figure out how to educate my kids without my request, I would not appreciate such a gesture. 

 

Have you missed the part where I have (repeatedly) stated that called CPS is not something I want to do?

Absolutely. The comments I make to CPS are in reply to other comments about CPS. Sometimes these conversations get into the hypothetical. I understand you don't want to call CPS.

 

'Lagging' reading skills is what you call someone that is a few month to a year or so behind.  Children that have literally zero literacy skills at ages 8 to 13 is NOT lagging behind.  Per the teaching parent, they are not being taught at all.

In your OP, you said the 11 yo reads well, kids are fed, clean, house is fine. That suggests to me the children are not neglected and do have access to things necessary for their development, including learning.  It's not uncommon for unschoolers to not read until they decide that skill is particularly helpful, and it's not unheard of for parents to wait patiently for the child to show interest. For some that might be at age 4, for some it might not be before 14. For some, that may mean waiting a genuine interest, not a passing comment here and there followed by an unwillingness to try when things aren't easy. Unschoolers generally gather advice from other unschoolers so they can present the kind of learning environment they think is best for their kids. That's where my interests are piqued here. I don't automatically conclude that not reading above 2nd grade level is negligent, or that the parent isn't making a choice about what she thinks is best for her kids. I totally get that you don't like her choice. I don't either, but there's a lot of things that parents do with and to their kids I have ethical problems with, and things I do that others have problems with. Part of living in a free society is learning how to tolerate behavior you don't approve of. If you want to make a change, perhaps you could do something in your community and help with a number of families who undoubtedly are not homeschooling very well. 

 

You seem to want to argue that I don't know anything about this family or these children, therefore no intervention should take place. You are mistaken.  From these forums and others, I am aware that you like to pick fights and argue just for the sake of arguing, but you assertions are completely and utterly incorrect.

You misunderstand my intent. I'm not speaking up because I like to pick fights and argue just for the sake of arguing (?), I'm speaking up because I take my rights seriously and I take the well-being of children very seriously. Being told to come with a CPS officer and get in the back of a car while police officers keep your parents at a distance, and being driven to a foster home for an unknown number of days and nights must be a confusing and frightening experience. I can't imagine it wouldn't traumatize a child. I know you don't want to call CPS, so I can't understand how it should be upsetting for you to read my comments to others about why I don't think they should be called either.

 

I don't know what you know about this family. You're not providing any information about that. You haven't mentioned under what context this comment was made, what your response was, what her reply was, how often these kinds of comments are made, any other academic skills you feel they are caught up with or not, or any other information that would be necessary for anyone to offer any kind of useful advice. Instead you come to a classical homeschool forum and ask if you should intervene with an unschooling family who apparently didn't ask you for help. I don't think "nosy" is a particularly unreasonable conclusion to make, all things considered. Imagine if you will, if I went to an atheist homeschool forum and talked about this mom to which I am acquainted who said her children don't need to know science or math or history, that anything they need to know they can read from the bible. Imagine if I asked if I should call CPS to investigate if these children were being neglected, and you were a member of that forum for whatever reason. Would you not speak up on behalf of the family who probably doesn't share the same values as I? Would you not try and explain to the other posters why maybe I was going overboard based on what I said?

 

I've worked with neglected and abuse children as well. My heart goes out to them as well. I'm not trying to make you feel guilty for helping a family in need. I simply judge the situation to be inappropriate for the big guns (CPS - on this we agree), and am explaining why to those who ask.

[Justmeandyou]

I am purposely being vague. I've explained that I don't want to put out huge amounts of information on a public forum.  This family is not unschooling.  This mom had never even heard the term until I asked her about it..  Unschooling is very uncommon here.  I would have no issue with purposely educating in a different manner.  Again, I am truly trying to help.  I made the original post basically wondering if my concern was normal.  The overwhelming response is that most people would also intervene in some way.  If the vast majority had stated they would ignore the situation, I would have spent some time considering whether or not to try to intervene. 

[Justmeandyou]

You've taken a bit of a beating by some in this thread.

 

I believe you.

 

I faced a similar situation. Someone very dear to me was not homeschooling her children. I spent a lot of time in the home, and I was someone whom this person considered a confidante. She told me honestly just how little they were doing. She attributed it at the time to a crazy life and lots of pregnancy. We later learned (years later) that her inability to cope was due to an undiagnosed and ultimately terminal illness.

 

I received the same types of responses to my queries on TWTM board that you are receiving.

 

I came to two crossroads points with this family.

 

My earlier crossroads was to decide that the children were definitely loved, fed, clothed, cared for, and not abused. They were never, ever hit by either parent. If anything, they were under-disciplined. Therefore I had no concern for their physical or emotional well-being, and there was no criminal abuse or neglect. I chose therefore to provide resources for the family, and to try to urge them to actually do school. The result was years of cycling through the same conversations, her confessing and despairing, me pleading and trying to show her how to do the simplest, easiest beginning steps of homeschooling. All to no avail.

 

This brought me to the next crossroads, at which I faced the fact that this would never change. Just as I came to this place emotionally, though, the reason for the lack of education (and generally lack of coping with many parts of her life) became apparent when she was diagnosed with a terminal illness. As this crossroads, I chose not to push the issue of schooling because it was important that the family treasure the time they had together before she died.

 

Eventually, the schooling was addressed in two ways. First, through involvement with a co-op. This got the ball rolling. Then, later, the children were placed in public school. They were all placed one grade level than they should have been according to their age. They did fine in school right from the start, and are now thriving.

 

If we had not discovered the terminal illness, I still would not have reported to DCFS. There was no criminal abuse or neglect, and the children were loved and cared for. I hated the fact that they were largely uneducated and had many a sleepless night worrying about it, but ultimately felt that less official interventions were all I could do.

 

YMMV. Just wanted to affirm to you that I believe you. I know how hard this is. I respect the care and thought you are putting into this. :grouphug:

 

Thank you very much.  If it was feasible for me to take them in and teach them everyday I would.  Mom has asked me too, but I just can't handle 4 additional children.  Several of the co-op moms are transporting them too and from events so they can participate.  I wish I could do more.  They are good kids. 

 

[kolamum]

I haven't waded through all three pages of this thread yet. I know opinions will vary because we each think differently & we can each take defensive stands where children's educations are at stake as well as having our way of educating children put at risk. I'm confused, though, as to why the Mum hasn't enrolled her children in school if she openly accepts that she doesn't have time/desire to teach her children. While she might not agree, love, enjoy public education for her own personal reasons it's there because children have the right to an education.

 

Another thought might be that if she's not willing to educate the children you offer to do so for her. Now that's a HUGE bullet to bite & a great big obligation you might not want to accept, I can understand that. The thought of being responsible for our own children's education can make us quake a little, but being responsible for someone else's is enough to make us fidget right on down to our toes. BUT, if you can teach those children to read & read well they can learn to educate themselves regardless of where their lives will take them. I'm thinking down the lines of THIS book. 

 

Meaning, if you can get them on the road to reading then you can open a world for them in which they might be able to change their futures & even if their parents change their minds about you educating them then those children can still move forward with educating themselves. They would, obviously, lack overseeing & have to be self driven, BUT sometimes what one canNOT have is enough incentive to make one work hard to obtain it, kwim?

 

Think about it this way, the right thing to do is report the fact that the children are not getting exactly what they need. They need an education, not a clean home. Don't get me wrong, i'm not at all bashing house cleaners, I am one. I love a neat & tidy home & can't think straight without one, but the day my homes cleanliness comes above my children's education is the day I've made a grave mistake. Kwim?  You could avoid the whole reporting situation & simply say, "Hey Friend, I know you are really busy & don't have time to educate your children & aren't keen on sending them into school. I've got plenty of books & educational material, want to send them to my house for 3-4 hours a day so they can do some studies with us?" 

 

It's not gonna sound confrontational, & might be the spur one needs to see a little sense. Just a thought.. good bad or indifferent..

[AimeeM]

A couple replies up the OP said that she could not educate the children (4 additional children). I know you said you didn't read through all the threads yet (big thread!), so I just wanted to mention it.

I haven't waded through all three pages of this thread yet. I know opinions will vary because we each think differently & we can each take defensive stands where children's educations are at stake as well as having our way of educating children put at risk. I'm confused, though, as to why the Mum hasn't enrolled her children in school if she openly accepts that she doesn't have time/desire to teach her children. While she might not agree, love, enjoy public education for her own personal reasons it's there because children have the right to an education.

 

Another thought might be that if she's not willing to educate the children you offer to do so for her. Now that's a HUGE bullet to bite & a great big obligation you might not want to accept, I can understand that. The thought of being responsible for our own children's education can make us quake a little, but being responsible for someone else's is enough to make us fidget right on down to our toes. BUT, if you can teach those children to read & read well they can learn to educate themselves regardless of where their lives will take them. I'm thinking down the lines of THIS book. 

 

Meaning, if you can get them on the road to reading then you can open a world for them in which they might be able to change their futures & even if their parents change their minds about you educating them then those children can still move forward with educating themselves. They would, obviously, lack overseeing & have to be self driven, BUT sometimes what one canNOT have is enough incentive to make one work hard to obtain it, kwim?

 

Think about it this way, the right thing to do is report the fact that the children are not getting exactly what they need. They need an education, not a clean home. Don't get me wrong, i'm not at all bashing house cleaners, I am one. I love a neat & tidy home & can't think straight without one, but the day my homes cleanliness comes above my children's education is the day I've made a grave mistake. Kwim?  You could avoid the whole reporting situation & simply say, "Hey Friend, I know you are really busy & don't have time to educate your children & aren't keen on sending them into school. I've got plenty of books & educational material, want to send them to my house for 3-4 hours a day so they can do some studies with us?" 

 

It's not gonna sound confrontational, & might be the spur one needs to see a little sense. Just a thought.. good bad or indifferent..

 

[IsabelC]

I don't feel I know enough details to weigh in on what you should or should not do.

But can I just say it is really wonderful that you care enough about these kids to be spending so much time and energy on figuring this out. If you weren't a truly caring person, you probably wouldn't even be bothering to consult anybody.

There is always going to be a very fine line between what is justified intervention to prevent harm to a child, and what is unjustified interference into a family's personal choices and circumstances. But I don't think you can go too far wrong if you speak and act as carefully and sensitively as you can, and if you are motivated by a desire to help, not a desire to judge.

I personally detest it as much as anyone when people get 'judgy' about how I raise my kids, but ultimately I would rather somebody who, out of kindness, slightly oversteps the boundaries to somebody who sees a major problem and just doesn't care enough to get involved.

[kolamum]

Thanks Amiee, by the time I posted it was 6 pages long & I saw where the OP said she couldn't do it. I wonder though, now if anyone who helps cart them to Co-Op might be willing to educate 1 of them in a way that would help them become confident in teaching themselves.. Most people might not be able to take on 4, but they might be able to take on 1.. 

[Justmeandyou]

Thanks Amiee, by the time I posted it was 6 pages long & I saw where the OP said she couldn't do it. I wonder though, now if anyone who helps cart them to Co-Op might be willing to educate 1 of them in a way that would help them become confident in teaching themselves.. Most people might not be able to take on 4, but they might be able to take on 1.. 

 

Actually, this is a good idea.  I could totally take 1.  Even if they could learn basics, then public school would not look so scary.

[Harriet Vane]

Thank you very much.  If it was feasible for me to take them in and teach them everyday I would.  Mom has asked me too, but I just can't handle 4 additional children.  Several of the co-op moms are transporting them too and from events so they can participate.  I wish I could do more.  They are good kids. 

 

 

Very similar to my situation.

 

The kids' father asked me to home educate.

 

I did not have the resources internally or otherwise to care for five extra children each day. As it was, they were with us for a huge amount of non-schooling time each and every week. It had a major impact on my kids and family. Schooling them also would have been terribly unfair to myself and my kids.

 

The other issue was that it would never, ever be a simple matter of schooling them. Four things would have complicated things dreadfully. One was that at least one has definite special needs. Another was how behind they were academically. Another was the fact that they were not used to sitting and working for any amount of time.

 

By far the most significant factor, though, was knowing just how much chaos their parents (especially father) would add to my life. I have known them for decades. They would be late. Or pick up the kids late. Or decide to stay and "help." Or sign them up for something without telling me and expect me to schlep them around. (This happened many, many times just in the course of my babysitting them--for free, I might add--over the years.) Or show up one day saying, "Let's just all go to the zoo!"

 

It is NOT a small thing to educate one "outside" kid. Adding more than one is a major lifestyle change. It's not the sort of thing I would ever, ever casually suggest to anyone.

[phathui5]

Thanks Amiee, by the time I posted it was 6 pages long & I saw where the OP said she couldn't do it. I wonder though, now if anyone who helps cart them to Co-Op might be willing to educate 1 of them in a way that would help them become confident in teaching themselves.. Most people might not be able to take on 4, but they might be able to take on 1.. 

 

But why should they, when it's the parents' job to homeschool them, hire childcare to do it, or put them in school?

[AimeeM]

Thanks Amiee, by the time I posted it was 6 pages long & I saw where the OP said she couldn't do it. I wonder though, now if anyone who helps cart them to Co-Op might be willing to educate 1 of them in a way that would help them become confident in teaching themselves.. Most people might not be able to take on 4, but they might be able to take on 1.. 

*gently*

While I wouldn't ordinarily, generally, think this is a bad idea, I know from experience that bringing even only ONE child, who has never been made to sit and work, and is seriously "behind" into the home, would be unfair to the other children, as another poster mentioned. We aren't talking about the child of a life-long homeschooler, with similar educational views and practices, and with a child who is typically on grade level - we're talking about children who could, and probably would, take up most of the friend/educator's day and energy with their very extensive needs, leaving their own children to fend for themselves. 

[In2why]

I think there's more to this. She leaves a 13 year old in charge who may have a learning disability? His disability may be the reason he has 2nd grade reading level.

 

Quote: she is a fun mom. House is clean. Children are fed. They all travel together. Dad is home for breakfast and dinner.

 

Yes, dad knows if he's home that often.

 

Why not try to unofficially teach them whenever they are over your house. I would hate to see a family torn apart.

 

Plus, there was a study done that kids are willing to teach themselves if left alone.

 

I just don't think calling CPS is the answer. There's got to be more going on that we don't know.

 

I completely agree.  She sounds like a radical unschooler without knowing that is what she is doing.  There is more to this story.  No one in their right mind just doesn't give a hoot about their kids not learning yet still keeps the house and kids fed and is the fun Mom.  She might have just given you a flippant answer about her life and choices because it isn't any of your business.   I know that some of the answers I give my family about our home schooling decisions, if taken at face value could seem like I don't care.  But the difference is that I care about my kids......I just don't care to explain or justify my choices to everyone anymore.

[Pen]

Actually, this is a good idea.  I could totally take 1.  Even if they could learn basics, then public school would not look so scary.

 

If the mom is into nutrition, cooking and cleaning, maybe you could do a swap where your family gets meals and or cleaning provided by her, and one of more of her kids get education provided by you.  

[Harriet Vane]

I completely agree.  She sounds like a radical unschooler without knowing that is what she is doing.  There is more to this story.  No one in their right mind just doesn't give a hoot about their kids not learning yet still keeps the house and kids fed and is the fun Mom.  She might have just given you a flippant answer about her life and choices because it isn't any of your business.   I know that some of the answers I give my family about our home schooling decisions, if taken at face value could seem like I don't care.  But the difference is that I care about my kids......I just don't care to explain or justify my choices to everyone anymore.

 

Just want to provide some gentle perspective on the highlighted.

 

First, I have known a few radical unschoolers, people I like and respect. It is NOT the same as not schooling at all.

 

Second, there are lots of deeply dysfunctional people who get some things right and some things tragically wrong. It's totally possible for someone to love their children truly and leave major, major things undone or done badly. They are dysfunctional.

[kiana]

But why should they, when it's the parents' job to homeschool them, hire childcare to do it, or put them in school?

Because they care and nobody else is doing it, and they don't want to call CPS over it?

 

I do a lot of things I shouldn't *have* to, simply because it seems to me to be the least bad of the available options.

[maize]

If the mom is into nutrition, cooking and cleaning, maybe you could do a swap where your family gets meals and or cleaning provided by her, and one of more of her kids get education provided by you.

Sign me up! I would happily homeschool half a dozen extra kids if someone would cook and clean for me!

 

This could actually work if the mom is willing, if not with the OP maybe with another experienced homeschooling family.

[Haiku]

I'll just jump right in and say that I would not take on someone else's four children to home educate along with my children, no matter how much I loved those other kids. It would negatively impact my own kids, who are my first priority. It is NOT the OP's job to solve this family's problem. The parents are responsible for seeing to their children's education. If they aren't willing to do it themselves, then they need to outsource it to a school. 

 

The OP said she notified the school district that these kids' education was being neglected. The school district said they can't do anything. IMO, the school district dropped the ball, and were it me I would find someone else in the state education realm to bring this situation to.

 

Also, I'm a bit baffled by those who keep insisting this is an unschooling family. According to all reports, even the reported words of the mother (unless you think the OP is lying), this family is simply not schooling. "Not getting around to teaching" is not the same thing as unschooling. Lumping anyone who doesn't do anything to help their children acquire an education into the unschooling category does a disservice to those who are actually unschooling. 

[Harriet Vane]

I'll just jump right in and say that I would not take on someone else's four children to home educate along with my children, no matter how much I loved those other kids. It would negatively impact my own kids, who are my first priority. It is NOT the OP's job to solve this family's problem. The parents are responsible for seeing to their children's education. If they aren't willing to do it themselves, then they need to outsource it to a school. 

 

The OP said she notified the school district that these kids' education was being neglected. The school district said they can't do anything. IMO, the school district dropped the ball, and were it me I would find someone else in the state education realm to bring this situation to.

 

Also, I'm a bit baffled by those who keep insisting this is an unschooling family. According to all reports, even the reported words of the mother (unless you think the OP is lying), this family is simply not schooling. "Not getting around to teaching" is not the same thing as unschooling. Lumping anyone who doesn't do anything to help their children acquire an education into the unschooling category does a disservice to those who are actually unschooling. 

 

:iagree:

[Orthodox6]

Sign me up! I would happily homeschool half a dozen extra kids if someone would cook and clean for me!

 

This could actually work if the mom is willing, if not with the OP maybe with another experienced homeschooling family.

There have been threads in the past discussing the legality (or not) of homeschooling children who are not ones own.

[Sdel]

Just want to provide some gentle perspective on the highlighted.

 

First, I have known a few radical unschoolers, people I like and respect. It is NOT the same as not schooling at all.

 

Second, there are lots of deeply dysfunctional people who get some things right and some things tragically wrong. It's totally possible for someone to love their children truly and leave major, major things undone or done badly. They are dysfunctional.

 

I just really want to say that I like this and add, that for some of those deeply dysfunctional people, they use the things they do get right as a game or smoke screen to hide the things the are not getting done.  I personally think it is a BIG disconnect to care so much about your kid not attending public school and then not be vested enough in their education to get it done, to the point of being willing to pawn the responsibility off on others.  OP, are you and this other family of the same religious faith?  If not, then what is the point of refusing PS based on religious reasons only to be willing to have a different 3rd party educate your child?

 

OP, I still think you should be considering that this is not solely an "education issue" and that this family has a lot of dysfunctional/mental health issues or may have some kind of history you haven't been informed of.  You have been very vague, and I can only judge based on what you say, but the comments you make about the excuses and motivations speak of bi-polar/depression/co-dependency to me. 

 

Your specialty is education, mine is an 8 year personal experience in dealing with all things mental health/irresponsibility from multiple people.  The comments and attitudes you attribute to this mother raise huge red flags to me.  That could just be because you are being vague, but I can only form opinions based on what you say.  And yes, I do understand the implications of CPS and the removal of children and I deal with it on a daily basis.  I can respect your decision not to, but I have to admit, I lean on the side of getting authorities involved because to me there are bigger red flags than the lack of education and I know just how well someone can 'make it' in some areas to keep people off their backs and still be grossly neglecting their children, and I think the risk of actual removal is low. 

 

OP, a hypothetical question.  If you knew that this mother has a diagnosed mental condition (ie. bi-polar, depression, etc) that she was not treating, and was likely the root cause of the lack of action educationally, would that change your opinion on the need to report to outside authorities?

 

Stefanie

[Justmeandyou]

I just really want to say that I like this and add, that for some of those deeply dysfunctional people, they use the things they do get right as a game or smoke screen to hide the things the are not getting done.  I personally think it is a BIG disconnect to care so much about your kid not attending public school and then not be vested enough in their education to get it done, to the point of being willing to pawn the responsibility off on others.  OP, are you and this other family of the same religious faith?  If not, then what is the point of refusing PS based on religious reasons only to be willing to have a different 3rd party educate your child?

 

OP, I still think you should be considering that this is not solely an "education issue" and that this family has a lot of dysfunctional/mental health issues or may have some kind of history you haven't been informed of.  You have been very vague, and I can only judge based on what you say, but the comments you make about the excuses and motivations speak of bi-polar/depression/co-dependency to me. 

 

Your specialty is education, mine is an 8 year personal experience in dealing with all things mental health/irresponsibility from multiple people.  The comments and attitudes you attribute to this mother raise huge red flags to me.  That could just be because you are being vague, but I can only form opinions based on what you say.  And yes, I do understand the implications of CPS and the removal of children and I deal with it on a daily basis.  I can respect your decision not to, but I have to admit, I lean on the side of getting authorities involved because to me there are bigger red flags than the lack of education and I know just how well someone can 'make it' in some areas to keep people off their backs and still be grossly neglecting their children, and I think the risk of actual removal is low. 

 

OP, a hypothetical question.  If you knew that this mother has a diagnosed mental condition (ie. bi-polar, depression, etc) that she was not treating, and was likely the root cause of the lack of action educationally, would that change your opinion on the need to report to outside authorities?

 

Stef

 

 

 

For the bolded, probably.   Ugh.

[maize]

There have been threads in the past discussing the legality (or not) of homeschooling children who are not ones own.

Probably depends on the state. But certainly any homeschooling parent has the right to hire a tutor?

[Justmeandyou]

The mom is out of town until late next week, so I'll not see her for a bit. 

[Haiku]

The mom is out of town until late next week, so I'll not see her for a bit. 

 

Where are the children?

[Justmeandyou]

Where are the children?

 

Home.  Dad is home morning/evenings.  I think two of the kids are with friends until mom returns.

[73349]

Probably depends on the state. But certainly any homeschooling parent has the right to hire a tutor?

 

Until recently (last year?), my state's law was that a parent had to be the primary teacher of the basic subjects (choosing materials and providing the instruction) and other people could only do supplementary things. (However, our state does allow two and only two households to combine as a single homeschool.)

It may be that other states have similar rules. If the law requires a parent to be the primary teacher, the OP would not be able to do that.