Verbalizing numbers over 99 and using "and"

[gardening momma]

I've been working with a boy who finished K in PS and we've recently gotten into big numbers.

What I'm wondering is--is this boy your son, or are you teaching someone else's son? How much authority do you have over him? Just curious...looks like you've already figured out how you're going to handle it.

[Tanaqui]

It makes me wonder when and where the "and-less rule" originated, and (most of all) why school books give the impression that the other way is objectively and logically incorrect, instead of just a different convention. 

 

You know how we got the "less and fewer" distinction? Some dude, a Mr. Robert Baker, got it into his head that it "sounded nicer" to use less for mass nouns and fewer for count nouns, and that everybody else should say it the way he liked. And from then on it went, in a very short time, from one man's personal preferences to a CORRECT RULE OF GRAMMAR (that hardly anybody actually follows in natural speech).

 

Betcha a dollar that's exactly what happened here. Some third grade teacher or accountant or style guide blowhard got it into their fool head that this is how it worked, and they were so adamant about it that they convinced lots of other people. It's not a real rule, it's what linguists call a made up zombie rule.

 

Sadly, in this world you are often judged on how well you follow the arbitrary shibboleths that are made up zombie rules, so you may find it beneficial to teach your kids to say numbers a certain way, just like you teach them not to say certain words in public or to not wear bathing suits to a wedding. (Although given the level of dissent here, I doubt this is one of those times where it even matters that much!)

 

Edit: Twice in one day I find myself apologizing, I didn't mean to rant. I should get off the internet until I get some food in me. Sorry about that!

 

[Matryoshka]

I've never heard that saying "and" in numbers is incorrect and I have never heard of "and" being used to indicate a decimal.  A fraction, yes.

 

So, 34.5 would be said "thirty-four point five".  34 1/2 would be said "thirty-four and a half"

 

When writing checks, I write "thirty-four dollars and 50/100 cents".  That's how I was taught to do it.

 

345 would be "three hundred and forty-five".

 

3,456,789

Three million, four hundred and fifty-six thousand, seven hundred and eighty nine.  I guess I put the "and" between hundreds and tens places.

 

For what it's worth, I've always lived in NJ and this was the convention in every math, science, etc. course I've ever taken.

 

ETA:  345 3/4 "three hundred and forty five and three fourths"

 

LOL, I actually had to say a bunch of these to check how I do it.  I really never thought about it.

 

This.  I live in New England, part of the US of A.  Never heard of this stick up someone's backside zombie "rule".  I've always heard it with "and" - sounds funny without to me.

 

And can someone please explain to me how you'd even use "and" with a decimal???  With a fraction, sure.

 

The number 300.5 is spoken "three hundred point five".  If you say "Three hundred and five-tenths", that's not a decimal spoken, it's a fraction, written 300 5/10.  I know they are equivalent values, but they are not written the same.  At any rate, it's the "tenths" or "hundredths" that give the marker that the number isn't five ones, not the word "and".  Or is it actually proper in the rest of the US or on Wall St. to say "three hundred and five" and mean 300.5??  Because if it isn't (and I'll be gobsmacked if it is) there is no danger of someone thinking "Three hundred and five" means anything but 305.

 

Germans and I think most non-English speaking Europeans do use points (or spaces) where we'd use commas and use commas for the decimal marker.  And when speaking Germans say "Komma" for a decimal marker where we'd say "Point". 

 

 

[MiMi 4under3]

Representative of Canada here....

 

Until I read this thread, I didn't know people didn't use "and".

 

Just my two cents to add to the muddy waters.

 

Out of curiosity.... How did the non-and folks say the year 12 years ago?

 

Um... "two thousand two." How else?   :)

[Arctic Bunny]

Um... "two thousand two." How else? :)

*snort*!!!!

Figured.... It just sounds so WROOOONG!!!! :D

[gardening momma]

*snort*!!!!

Figured.... It just sounds so WROOOONG!!!! :D

Do you call this year two thousand and fourteen?

[Arctic Bunny]

Do you call this year two thousand and fourteen?

Nope - twenty-fourteen!! :D

 

Logical? Not so much....

[kiwik]

Two thousand and fourteen OR twenty fourteen. Nineteen sixty nine was a lot more common than one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine though. It was either called nineteen sixty nine or nineteen hundred and sixty nine.

 

I like the less and fewer rule though but I think I might be the only person I know who uses it. My Mother and Step Mother don't I wonder if my father does.

[mom2bee]

Thanks everyone! I was just wondering because I didn't want to teach/allow him to do it "wrong" especially since I wouldn't have been there to correct it or deal with the aftermath.

 

In case anyone is wondering (and because I can't remember if I already posted this): In the end,  I looked ahead in his PS curriculum and the Curriculum his school uses, does not use "and" so I continued to model numbers without using "and".

However, I did explain to him that it could be said with or without the and, but at school he should do it however his teacher wants him to. He said okay and we kept on moving. The last few times that we worked together, he would say it both ways and didn't seem to care.

I'm glad that I didn't make it a big deal.

 

But honestly, it seemed like an arbitrary rule to me and I don't like bossing folks just to boss them around. I adapted the "no and" rule because I took my college teachers word at face value, but I've heard people say it both ways all the time and I've never been confused by it so it doesn't seem to matter. I worked in the math lab at the community college and to tell you the truth, I think numbers were said several different ways and no one even gave it a 2nd thought or was confused.

 

ETA: wow! time flies, I just realized the date on this thread! I haven't been working with that student for a few weeks now, time flies!!! this summer is going so fast, I can barely keep up!

[SierraNevada]

Where I come from we say, four hundred 'n two (402). No one says and clearly, it get muddled to an "n".

[gardening momma]

For the year, I say "two thousand fourteen". I rarely, if ever, hear people saying "twenty fourteen".

[IsabelC]

 

Sadly, in this world you are often judged on how well you follow the arbitrary shibboleths that are made up zombie rules, so you may find it beneficial to teach your kids to say numbers a certain way, just like you teach them not to say certain words in public or to not wear bathing suits to a wedding. 

 

^^^ This! ^^^

 

The widely taught taboo against split infinitives is another example of this tendency to create some arbitrary 'rule' and then proceed to look down on those who neglect to learn/follow it (and one which I seem to recall has been discussed on here previously).

 

I had an interesting conversation re shibboleths with my Ms. 9 when she asked about aitch vs haitch. Apparently she is the only person in her class who says aitch (apart from the teacher). I had to explain that, while both versions are understood and neither is inherently superior, the haitch is considered low-brow and uneducated by many, while conversely 'haitchers' may think that the aitch sounds snooty and affected. (I don't know whether this distinction holds true in other English-speaking countries.)

[Deee]

Just when we good British subjects thought your break-away tribe couldn't muck up the Queen's English any more than you already have, I come here and discover that not only can you not pronounce numbers larger than two digits, but you have been tampering with the pronunciation of decimals as well! Honestly, no wonder the international economy is in such a mess ;-)

[Mbelle]

Isabel..I have never heard of anyone saying haitch.  I had to do a google search to figure out what you were referring to.  If I heard someone say that I wouldn't have any idea what they were talking about.  As you know my dh is from Tasmania and I have never heard him say that.  Wow, things can change quickly.

[Laura Corin]

Isabel..I have never heard of anyone saying haitch.  I had to do a google search to figure out what you were referring to.  If I heard someone say that I wouldn't have any idea what they were talking about.  As you know my dh is from Tasmania and I have never heard him say that.  Wow, things can change quickly.

 

It's regional in the UK: 'haitch' is used in Wales and N. Ireland, I think.  Perhaps in other places:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11642588

 

L

[maize]

It's regional in the UK: 'haitch' is used in Wales and N. Ireland, I think.  Perhaps in other places:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11642588

 

L

 

I have only ever heard "aitch" in the US, never "haitch".

[vonfirmath]

For the year, I say "two thousand fourteen". I rarely, if ever, hear people saying "twenty fourteen".

 

That's how I say it too.

 

[Matryoshka]

For the year, I say "two thousand fourteen". I rarely, if ever, hear people saying "twenty fourteen".

 

I've heard both ways.  But I want to point out that there are places where the 'and' is more typically used in English.  It's usually used after the hundreds, but not after the thousands or tens, so 2014 isn't as relevant in the 'and' or not discussion. :)

 

For example, 3436: Three thousand, four hundred and thirty-six.

 

In other languages they also use 'and' for longer numbers, but the convention of where to put it is different.  For example the same number in Spanish would be: Tres mil, cuatrocientos, treinta y seis.

[Deee]

In Sydney "Haitch" is considered to be either lower working class or Catholic. Until the 1970's, that often meant the same thing (and until the 1990's, being working class was a badge of honour for Aussies, not something to be avoided at all costs like it is now). My very middle class, Catholic mother still says "haitch" (and manages to sound quite posh regardless), my very working class Protestant father said "aitch", probably the result of his Scottish mother (his father was Welsh and Irish). I said "haitch" till it was teased out of me at Uni.

D

[Korrale]

It's definitely regional. My kids' US textbook teaches carefully that they shouldn't say "and", but my kids definitely do, because that's how I was taught, and how I still say it all the time. I'm an Aussie (ex-pat) and for me to hear someone say a longer number without the "and" is a dead giveaway that they're American or American taught.

 

For me, "point" is the indicator of a decimal. Or if you're going to add the fraction, it's just another "and" and it becomes apparent what you're saying when you say the fraction. "Three hundred and twenty five and four fifths" or "Three hundred and twenty five point eight".

 

Mind you, the "and" in the middle of the number is usually verbalized more as "n" than the fully enunciated word. Whereas the "and" that would tack on the fraction is fully enunciated. "Three hundred-n twenty five and four fifths" would probably be a more accurate way to write how I'd say it. But maybe that's just lazy Aussie-speak! :)

Exactly. Neither way is right or wrong. It is regional. That is like telling someone that learnt is not a word. Or gaol is spelled incorrectly.

[Korrale]

My name ends in an H and I was taught explicitly in second grade to say Aitch instead of Haitch.

[IsabelC]

Isabel..I have never heard of anyone saying haitch.  I had to do a google search to figure out what you were referring to.  If I heard someone say that I wouldn't have any idea what they were talking about.  As you know my dh is from Tasmania and I have never heard him say that.  Wow, things can change quickly.

 

Haitch is predominately a Catholic thing that came from Ireland and is learned in Catholic schools. We have a sort of three tiered school system in which the richest and/or most ambitious parents send their kids to private schools (mostly run under the auspices of religious groups, usually protestant Christian denominations), the people who want private school education but can't afford it use catholic schools (as well as a few families who use them because they are actually Catholic) and the lowest socio economic status people use government run public schools. (I say 'government run' because, for historical reasons which I won't go into, our government funds the private schools as well as the public schools. The only students who get no funding are the homeschooled/unschooled students.) It's a big class divide. (Australia is meant to be a classless society, but it isn't.) But yes, it's changing a lot. I gather the trend is more and more parents going to more and more desperate lengths to send their kids to the 'better' schools.

[gardening momma]

I've heard both ways.  But I want to point out that there are places where the 'and' is more typically used in English.  It's usually used after the hundreds, but not after the thousands or tens, so 2014 isn't as relevant in the 'and' or not discussion. :)

 

I only commented on it because someone else brought it up. With advent of the year 2000, we all had to figure out how we were going to say the year(s) after being used to saying ninteen- for so long.

[Piper]

Haitch is predominately a Catholic thing that came from Ireland and is learned in Catholic schools. 

 

It's interesting that this is seen as a Catholic school thing - which I don't doubt.  But in my family, it was more of a class thing.  We all said "haitch" in our (Catholic) school, but my mum, (whose mother was English) always corrected us to say "aitch".  I grew up with the impression that it's more "proper" to say "aitch" and more "ignorant" to say "haitch".  (FWIW, both my parents were cradle Catholics and went to Catholic schools, as did all of us kids.)

 

Then when I came to the US and found that I never heard "haitch" but always "aitch" (where I live, at least), that little cultural blindspot wanted to tell me that everyone was very well-educated here! :)