Hive Help...getting son to sleep

[Alison in KY]

I'm looking for some advice on getting my 10 yr old (April b-day) son to sleep at night. He has a terrible time going to sleep every single night unless someone sleeps with him.

 

Right or wrong, When he was a baby I co-slept with him (he slept terrible as a baby also). As siblings came along he was moved over, then when there wasn't room anymore in the bed he was placed into a bed next to our bed.

 

Roughly at the age of 7/8 he began sleeping with his sister who was 5/6 at the time. We thought it would help each of them to sleep together, plus we didn't have another bed or bedroom set up at the time. He slept fairly well with his sister, but he did wake up alot at night and get a bit anxious at bedtime.

 

Anyway, approx. 4 month's ago we bought new beds and moved my two girls into their own room, which left my son alone in his bedroom (which is located right next to the girls room). He started off doing okay, but he's actually getting worse about sleeping alone in his room. We've tried putting him to bed early/waking him up early. Also putting him to bed late and waking him up early. We sleep with him on Friday nights when we all have a boys night/girls night (girls sleep with mom and dad sleeps with son...our own slumber party so to speak). I pray with him, pray over him. I prepare him that it's bedtime, give him quite time to read in bed, etc.

 

He is anxious no matter what. He watches the clock and the later it gets the more nervous he gets becauase he know's that either me or my husband will be going to bed soon and he isn't asleep yet. We've let him stay in bed crying, but not very often. My husband thinks he just needs to learn to go to sleep, but it's been month's now. He's always been a bad sleeper and needed comfort at night. This is only a night thing, he doesn't run around upset all day.

 

He does have things that bother him. He struggles with making decisions, big time. At night, he likes to have the covers just so, the alarm clock turned a certain way, and his door opened just so. He's every bit of a mature 10 yr old boy in all other aspects of life, but he does have a few of those quirks. He has grown, matured, and we have seen improvement in some areas, but at other times the indecision is a terrible crutch (leading him to tears at times on wether he should go to the store with mom, or stay home with dad - this is at it's extreme and doesn't happen very often).

 

A few weeks ago I was pretty upset when during our school time we were talking about things that scare you. He shared that at night he sees people and animals walking into his room through the door. He said they stand at the foot of his bed and scream sometimes (sounds crazy to me too, but trust me, he is a normal kid, nothing weird during the day, etc). I couldnt' tell if it was his runaway imagination (I had an alligator under my bed as a kid) or what. He will sometimes do some sleep walking, but so will my daughter.

 

And then there are some nights, not very often, that he'll lay down, he's content and at peace, and he'll go to sleep. It's like the anxiety is gone.

 

Any ideas how to help him settle down and go to sleep more calmly? If I lie down with him at night, as soon as I move out of the bed he wakes up.

Even on a good night he will still get up a time or two to run to the bathroom. He is a big drinker, but we usually don't give him anything to drink past 06:30 or so.

 

He also wakes up every morning to tell his father goodbye. This is at 05:30, so he is going to bed sometimes at 10:00 or later and getting up in the middle of the night some, then up at 05:30, then he sleeps until he wakes or I wake him which is usually 07:30.

 

How much sleep does your 10 yr old get? Do you stay with your kids until they fall asleep, even at this age (my husband thinks most parents tuck their kids in bed and walk away). Any ideas on how to help him?

 

Thank you so much for listening.

 

Alison

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

:grouphug:

 

Really. I was that kid. I remember watching the clock all night and getting myself up to go to school. Dragging through the whole day. I had bouts of sleep walking and night-terrors. Wet the bed. Nightime for me was pretty miserable.

 

I saw signs that my youngest has inherited the problem. He just can't shut down at night and get into sleep mode unless he's totally exhausted. He thinks about a lot of stuff. He sleeps better if someone lays down with him, but I don't do that often. For the last 4 or 5 years, I have been giving him melatonin. It has made a big difference. I take it myself (Costco has it) and it has helped a lot.

 

I would suggest that you try a small dosage (my kid takes 3mg) about 20 minutes before bed. When he was smaller, I'd read a bit aloud and then turn his lights out. Now he reads to himself until he's tired enough to fall asleep.

 

hth,

K

[Pamela H in Texas]

Honestly, I think I'd just leave it up to him. My son has been similar in history. I don't think co-sleeping has ANYTHING to do with it. Humans are just social creatures and like to be around one another. And in many cultures, they ARE sleeping around other people. Well, and most people marry fairly early and sleep with someone again. That is just how it is. I really think that not sleeping together is kinda unnatural. Though many kids that have to deal, some kids just are more sensitive.

 

BTW, I think it's fine to wake and tell dad goodbye. My ds does this also :)

 

And he just may require less sleep. ALso, *I* get my best sleep from 5-7am also. A lot of times I can't get back to sleep for that last bit, but when I do, I feel GREAT. That is still 9+ hours of sleep (though 10-11 would be better for most kids).

 

Some things I would do:

 

I certainly would not even consider lying down with him. To me, that is just feeding into it and it doesn't work as he wakes when you get up anyway.

 

You could teach him some deep breathing and such. Do y'all pray?

 

Is he getting enough HARD play (running, biking, exercising, sports, wrestling, etc) during the day?

 

Seriously, I would just give him a few skills and tools to use, tire him out, and put the ball in his court.

[MomLovesClassics]

I hate to admit this I was the same way as a kid. I would get up after everyone went to sleep, and sleep at the foot of my brother's bed, wake up and get back into my own bed before anyone noticed. I did this until I had a cat to sleep with me. I just didn't like sleeping alone.

[Alison in KY]

I hate to admit this I was the same way as a kid. I would get up after everyone went to sleep, and sleep at the foot of my brother's bed, wake up and get back into my own bed before anyone noticed. I did this until I had a cat to sleep with me. I just didn't like sleeping alone.

 

He feels alot better when his cat Whiskers comes to bed with him...Whiskers just doesn't comply very often.

 

Alison

[katilac]

Consider giving him some melatonin. It works wonders with my dd, who has sleep issues and shares some of your son's 'just so' tendencies (covers have to be a certain way, stuffed animals have to face the door, :D).

 

It's next to impossible to address the anxiety issues if there is a physical reason they can't get to sleep. Staring at the ceiling just fuels the anxiety, kwim? Melatonin doesn't force sleep, but enables it if there's a lack of it (it's a hormone the body naturally produces; some people don't produce enough).

 

It's been a lifesaver for us. as it turns out, dd is more than content to go straight to sleep WHEN SHE CAN. For her, it's not a control issue and it's not a true anxiety issue. When she doesn't lie awake for hours, signs of 'anxiety' at night disappear.

 

We don't use it every night. I will give it to her when she trouble the night before, or if she's been in bed a while and is still awake. There's been no change in the number of times she needs it (averages a couple of times per week).

[Pip]

My oldest has had this problem for years. She just didn't shut down. She would lie in a dark room for hours contemplating why cirrus clouds are wispy. I got so mad having the dr. tell me to be glad we homeschool because she could sleep in. But it impacted our lives and dd was actually getting depressed because she was so tired.

 

We finally switched dr's. Homeschooler with 8 kids who got it. He suggested melatonin. He said just because children generally produce enough doesn't mean a particular child might not produce enough. He spoke with a pediatric endocinologist at OU Medical Center for me who confirmed 1 mg. was safe for my dd. It made all the difference. We have had to switch brands as she gets older but it still works.

 

My 2 younger ones also take it. They swim for 2 hours every night until 8 and exercise at night can inhibit the production of melatonin and cause sleep problems.

 

Melatonin is also a very strong antioxidant. They are finding more and more benefits to it.

 

If you don't want to try that route right away, you may also try GABA, valerian, magnesium, or sleep supplements with lavender and chamomile. Those just didn't work for us.

 

Good Luck!

 

Ann

[Alison in KY]

Sounds like melatonin is worth a try. I use 5-HTP, but I didn't know the risks to try it with kids...I just know it helps me, but not lately.

 

So if I want to try melatonin and my 10 yr old is terrible about swallowing pills what would you recommend? Is there a particular brand that comes in a smaller pill? He can usually swallow down one of those small red Sudafed pills. That's progress for him :D.

 

Alison

[Alison in KY]

Consider giving him some melatonin. It works wonders with my dd, who has sleep issues and shares some of your son's 'just so' tendencies (covers have to be a certain way, stuffed animals have to face the door, :D).

 

It's next to impossible to address the anxiety issues if there is a physical reason they can't get to sleep. Staring at the ceiling just fuels the anxiety, kwim? Melatonin doesn't force sleep, but enables it if there's a lack of it (it's a hormone the body naturally produces; some people don't produce enough).

 

It's been a lifesaver for us. as it turns out, dd is more than content to go straight to sleep WHEN SHE CAN. For her, it's not a control issue and it's not a true anxiety issue. When she doesn't lie awake for hours, signs of 'anxiety' at night disappear.

 

We don't use it every night. I will give it to her when she trouble the night before, or if she's been in bed a while and is still awake. There's been no change in the number of times she needs it (averages a couple of times per week).

 

This sounds like him. He is more anxious than anything because he didn't fall asleep right away and he'll be awake when my husband and I go to bed. He heaves these great big frustrating sighs when he doesn't go to sleep right away. Then there are those times he will fall asleep okay and as soon as the lights are all turned off he suddenly wakes up and calls for us.

 

It's getting to where I don't sleep well because I'm either waiting for the 10, 8, or 5 yr old to be standing in my bedroom. They all wake up alot, but he definitely struggles more than the girls.

 

Alison

[KS_]

So if I want to try melatonin and my 10 yr old is terrible about swallowing pills what would you recommend? Is there a particular brand that comes in a smaller pill? He can usually swallow down one of those small red Sudafed pills. That's progress for him :D.

 

Alison

 

My 10 yo ds can't swallow pills, either, and so I found a 500mcg chewable tablet. The brand is Nutrition Now. The 500mcg works fine for my ds as long as his room is dark and he lies down after he takes it - if he stays up with the light on, he won't just fall alseep. We've haven't had to up the dosage at this point.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

My 10 yo ds can't swallow pills, either, and so I found a 500mcg chewable tablet. The brand is Nutrition Now. The 500mcg works fine for my ds as long as his room is dark and he lies down after he takes it - if he stays up with the light on, he won't just fall alseep. We've haven't had to up the dosage at this point.

 

There is a brand, Natrol (at walmart) that are pretty small. Sorry I don't remember the name, but they are considerably smaller than the Costco ones.

 

hth

K

[OneRoomSchoolHouse]

My dc go to sleep everynight with classical music playing softly. Maybe this would help him to relax and give him something else to focus on.

[Mom22ns]

You always want to start Melatonin with the smallest dosage you can get anyway. The smaller the dosage, the smaller the pill. My ds takes 1 mg and they are quite small. The 3 mgs are much larger. If you can find the 500 mcg that would be 1/2 mg then start there. Some kids will be knocked out by the stuff (rare). We consider it to give a "window" for sleep. If he takes it, goes to bed reads a book, gets quiet it gives the opportunity for sleep.

[Alison in KY]

I've been reading up on the melatonin, and of course I'm reading some conflicting info. Have any of you been taking it long term, and if so have you experienced any negative health effects?

 

I'll try to run by walgreens later and see what they have.

 

Alison

[Starr]

My dd has listened to Narnia cds for years as she falls asleep. If she wakes up during the night she turns it back on. Now at 15 we can travel without the cd player. :) For her it has to be a story she knows well so she isn't waiting to find out what is going to happen next and music did not work. It's so frustrating not being able to fix everything for our children.

[Alison in KY]

I guess I could let him listen to SOTW, but he might not fall asleep

[Alison in KY]

Oh, I found 1 mg melatonin at Walgreens. I plan on cutting it in half and will try it tonight.

 

Thank you all for the suggestions.

 

Alison

[Laura Corin]

 

Is he getting enough HARD play (running, biking, exercising, sports, wrestling, etc) during the day?

 

Seriously, I would just give him a few skills and tools to use, tire him out, and put the ball in his court.

 

Exercise helps sleep in two ways: by physically tiring a child out and by producing a feeling of wellbeing that might help with anxiety.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Tammyla]

We haven't used it, but heard from a few families that it caused nightmares. My son has a difficult time getting to sleep too, so I do sympathize as a mom. If the cat helps, you might consider another one, a dog or something similar. Poor kiddo:grouphug:.

 

We continue to work on this using a set routine, schedule of waking, lots of exercise, a good diet and multivitamin and he is allowed to read until he settles past bed time. He does better during the summer because of all the outdoor time.

 

 

I've been reading up on the melatonin, and of course I'm reading some conflicting info. Have any of you been taking it long term, and if so have you experienced any negative health effects?

 

I'll try to run by walgreens later and see what they have.

 

Alison

[Alison in KY]

When is an appropriate time to exercise? I had heard if you exercise in the evening it makes it harder for kids to get to sleep. Is there a time frame for avoiding exercise for bed.

 

Alison

[Alexandra]

also have you considered allowing him to have a pallet in your room? If he has so much anxiety and what sounds like night terrors would it help if he knew mom and dad were nearby? Lastly, would a bath before bedtime help? I remember people on this board saying that the magnesium in Epsom Salts helped their children with bad dreams and nightmares.

Bless his heart - an yours too Mom! It sounds like no one is getting the sleep they need!

[Tree House Academy]

From your description of his bedtime quirks, it makes me think of my OCD and the way I was at his age. Even now, I have to literally MAKE the bed before I get in it. I have to have a certain shirt to sleep in and it has to be clean and smell good. If it is not clean and I am forced to wear a different shirt, I am less confortable and have a fit falling asleep. My OCD also causes anxiety at night, and sometimes, I need a dose of anti-anxiety medicine to help my mind cut off and help me sleep (I take .5mg of ativan or less - just the smallest dose I can get away with and it still help).

 

As for how my 10 year old sleeps/what we do...I am not sure you want to know. ds will be 10 in August and since he was 2 mos old, he has been my "super sleeper." Now, he likes to have the light in his bathroom on. Other than that, he puts himself in bed, reads until he is tired, turns out his light and goes to sleep. From the time he goes to bed at 8 or 9 (depending on the night) until I go to bed, I don't hear from him...and usually he has his light out by 10 at the latest. He sleeps really soundly (which was a problem with bedwetting until he was about 8 and little bro potty trained at night...go figure) and will often not drag his butt out of bed until 9:30am or so. I figure, oh well...let him sleep. We HOMESCHOOL! LOL

Edited May 8, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[Tree House Academy]

It's getting to where I don't sleep well because I'm either waiting for the 10, 8, or 5 yr old to be standing in my bedroom. They all wake up alot, but he definitely struggles more than the girls.

 

I can't even IMAGINE what your nights must be like! :grouphug: My 5 year old will occasionally have a nightmare and call for me or dh (usually daaaaaaaaady), but the almost 10 year old...one time in 3 years when he dreamed that I had died...did he come to get me in the middle of the night. That has to be so tough.

 

I am also a sleeper though. My dh says that once I sleep, I may as well be dead. Nothing wakes me up. There are nights I go to sleep and we will have a terrible thunderstorm and I wake up and have no idea it even happened. dh is the opposite. He is a TERRIBLE sleeper and often goes to bed at 10 only to lay awake from 2am until 6 when he gets up for work. Me, I am lucky to go to bed at midnight and get up before the kids at 9:30. :blush:

[klmama]

One of my dc is this way, too. Melatonin helps some, but I've also found inositol and GABA to be helpful. The biggest help, though, is to have the dc exericise first thing in the morning out in the bright sunshine. We get up early to see dh off to work, then we go for a walk. When we get back, we do any yard work that is needed. Finally, we get on to breakfast, chores, and schoolwork. Having that dose of exericse outside in the morning really helps with sleep at night.

[MyThreeSons]

I would rub his back with lavender lotion, while praying out loud (softly). I would pray that he would sleep well, but also pray for others in our family and church body, whatever came to mind.

[Ria]

We've dealt with this with two of our sons; in fact, the 12-year old still has trouble falling asleep. Some of the things we have done:

 

1. We have a bedtime routine....he needs to be in bed by a certain time and is allowed to read for a while.

 

2. Melatonin (dr recommended this)

 

3. We try to stay up reading after he clicks out his light. We leave the doors open so he can see the light from our room. Knowing that we are still up reduces his anxiety.

 

4. We got a white noise maker for one son...he found the ocean wave sound to be helpful.

 

5. This one might shock you a bit: we told him to suck it up and get over it. Seriously, when he was about 10 years old we told him that this was his lot in life and not our issue. There's no way I'm going to coddle a child over this issue, because it will only cause more stress for the child in the long run - the more I pay attention to it, the more he pays attention to it. Thus, I won't rub his back, sit with him, allow him in our room....nada. He's old enough and he's got the coping skills to deal with this. I told him that everyone has trouble falling asleep sometimes, and it's okay if he's awake for a few hours. No big deal. Somehow knowing that seemed to help, believe it or not!

 

6. If all else fails, he's allowed to take an allergy pill (generic Benadryl) to make him sleepy. That doesn't happen very often, but it gives him an option without bothering us.

 

Ria

[Alison in KY]

Thank you. I took 1/2 1 mg melatonin for myself last night, because I've been woken up so much lately that I haven't been settling down so well. Wow, who knew that stuff was so potent. It knocked me out in about 30 minutes. Unfortunately I found myself wanting to sleep way later than I should this morning, I just have this urge to lay down and sleep more. That's not good for me :confused:.

 

Ria, one of your choices sounded like my husband speaking. We hate he is having these struggles, but I have said some similiar things to my son. I assure him he will be alright and I can't make him go to sleep, that he has to do it on his own. But I also assure him that he will go to sleep. I've told him it's impossible for him to stay up all night. I do hate that in the morning I get the crabby boy, the oldest who is setting the worse school example, to deal with.

 

As far as the pallet goes, I would be okay with it for awhile, but my husband wouldn't vote for that. He considers that the more I go check on my son, etc (all at son's request) that I am making the situation worse. That son needs to figure out, with assurances from us of course, that he can do this.

 

My son started running a fever last night. So after giving him a dose of Tylenol Cold/Flu (kid's stuff since he isn't a pill swallower) he still didn't settle down to go to sleep. Once we put him in his bed it's like his comfort zone is gone. He does say he is trying to get to sleep. He tells me he is being still and closing his eyes, and we've broken him of talking to us from the bed (saying I love you numerous times, goodnight, come check on me). Now, so husband doesn't hear, he asks me to check on him X number of times. I told him I didn't want to do that because then he'd be on a kick that I would always have to check on him X number of times.

 

My middle daughter lays her head down and goes to sleep (like her daddy) thank goodness. My 5 yr old still hates not sleeping with me (I totally miss her too) and she says she will always hate it. She likes me to come check on her every 9 minutes so I'm worried she'll start having hang up's like my oldest has. With the youngest, if I leave her alone, she will usually go to sleep pretty easily, however, she wakes up once or twice nightly and wants me to lay down with her. I'm working on that too.

 

UGH, I wish this were easier. Anyway, just posting here and hearing that others have experienced what my son is feeling is helping ME. I will be trying the melatonin, music, reading, bedtime routine (which we already do), backrub, etc.

 

I might have to try the exercise earlier, our kids exercise comes in the afternoon, and it's not really exercise as much as it is going outside. My kids will be physically active, but they want the parents involved, which isn't easy at supper time and after dh gets home from work. The only reason I do not let them out in the morning more often is that they tend to dawdle greatly when it's time to get on the school work. If they could do a quick bike ride, come in and get busy it would be different, but everytime I give them an inch they try to take a mile.

 

I'll work on things and I'm feeling better about the situation already. I asked ds yesterday if he still thought he was seeing the people/animals coming into his room at night and I was relieved to hear that when I placed a new night light in the living room, the people/animals went away. That's progress!

 

Alison