Just to keep the Christian/Non believer issue in perspective

[Peek a Boo]

True, but it does make me wonder just how folks who choose to do most of their socializing through avowedly Christian organizations feel about this sort of thing? I mean, I assume that those who make these choices in order to keep their kids safe/supported/etc. are not actually looking into the hearts of all of the other people who participate? So, if a group is "Christian" because you have to act like a Christian on the outside and maybe sign a statement of faith, but there's no way of telling whether each individual is actually "following Christ," what's the advantage?

The "advantage" is an agreed-upon standard of accountability and expected responses. And people who ARE able to support you in the faith. Of course we can't have a perfect system, but maintaining that type of expectation readies the group for quite a bit.

 

 

And, to turn this around and relate it to some of the other conversations we've been having around here lately: If someone can go through the profess Christianity and not "really" be one because of how they act, how do we account for people who don't profess to be Christians but live by a strict moral/ethical code that has them living like a Christian? Is one saved and the other ****ed?

 

Lots to ponder . . .

 

 

Biblically, yes. You either have eternal life WITH God or eternal separation FROM God. And that time w/ God is not judged by what you DO. Back to the "living like a Christian" debate. ;)

 

again:

Christianity is NOT about living your life a specific way. It is about where you place your salvation.

 

eta: ok, not necessarily "where you place" lol-- rephrase as you need for your own doctrinal analysis ;)

[OnTheBrink]

Perhaps not on the TWTM board, but I can assure you that in real life, I have been told this more times than I can count. I suspect that people would say it here if they weren't afraid of being moderated.

 

And while I am uncomfortable with how many subtly anti-Christian posts seem to be cropping up, my personal opinion is that it comes from the frustration of non-Christians who have to deal with religious bias on a daily basis. It's like someone uncapped the well of frustration and it's pouring out now.

 

I can assure you that non-Christians in this country are routinely made to feel less than and immoral. Most of the Christians I know don't throw their self-believed superiority around, but there are enough in this country who do that I think it would be well to be reminded every once in a while that non-Christians can be fabulous, kind, moral people too.

 

Tara

 

Tara, honestly, I think it goes both ways in the real world. From my conservative Christian perspective, it's the non-Christians who are working so hard at making Christians feel foolish and stupid. I've seen it said on these boards and I've seen it in the media, in politics, in tv shows. I'm always surprised to hear when non-Christians say they feel as if they're the minority in the world, when I see it as the opposite! I guess it all depends on the glasses you (general you) look through.

 

To address the OP: I have to agree with Hillary KS. I really doubt anyone truly believes or needs to be reminded that there are nice Non-Christians out there, as well as sinning Christians. I don't think many of us are really that naive or sheltered.

 

As for my own life and who I'm surrounded by, I'm a single, homeschooling, Christian mom. My life is primarily my child and church, so I don't naturally come around non-Christians enough to form any sort of relationships with them. Before I homeschooled, MOST of my friends were non-Christians. Some would come to church events with me, some wouldn't. I wasn't their friend to win them over, I was their friend because I liked them. And, vice versa. If I were back in the work world, I'd have more opportunity to meet folks who are of different beliefs than I. Right now, at this season of my life, I'm surrounded by Christians. Note: not perfect people, not people who are superior, just people saved by Grace who often stumble and need forgiveness. Just like me.

[PineFarmMom]

I don't think anyone ever made the statement that Christians were nicer or better than non-Christians. What is this: Christians on trial month or something?

 

And, just because she was at a church doesn't mean she was following Christ.

 

 

My thoughts exactly. I would doubt she was a Christian at all. The Bible talks of how people will sneak in and how you will know them by their fruit, etc.

 

And no, this is not Christians on trial month. Christians have been on trial for a long, long time. It strikes me more as the norm rather than unusual.

 

Teresa

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm always surprised to hear when non-Christians say they feel as if they're the minority in the world, when I see it as the opposite!

 

Perhaps not the world, but the fact is that Christianity is the most prevalent religion in the United States. According to Wikipedia (yeah, I know, but it was the quickest place to check), 76% of the U.S. population identifies as Christian.

 

According to a survey from 2008, those of us who belong to "other religions" make up only 3.3% of the U.S. population.

 

(Non-religious people and those who refused to answer were collectively a little over 10%.)

 

http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/p1a_belong.html

 

 

[Edited to add: Apparently, Christianity is also the largest religion in the world, although not the majority of the world's population. 33% of the world professes Christianity. Islam is next, with 20%, followed by Hinduism (13%), Chinese folk religion (6.3%) and Buddhism (a little under 6%).]

Edited April 13, 2009 by Jenny in Florida

[coralloyd]

Your blanket statement absolutely outrages me. You see I'm married to a US soldier and they must do what must be done to protect our freedom so that we can all sit in our little corners of the US and type out our little mindless replies. Even if that means taking out the bad guys...surely you must not mind all the precious freedoms you have and the people who had to be killed for you keep them, right?

 

 

In the Bible killing in War is completely different than murder you cannot compare the two.

[*********]

-

Edited April 14, 2009 by bethanyniez
I never should have entered into the discussion.

[Marylou]

And, to turn this around and relate it to some of the other conversations we've been having around here lately: If someone can go through the profess Christianity and not "really" be one because of how they act, how do we account for people who don't profess to be Christians but live by a strict moral/ethical code that has them living like a Christian? Is one saved and the other ****ed?

 

Lots to ponder . . .

 

I'm sorry, more Wiki. . . I guess I could post it on the "contact with unbelievers" thread, too!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Tares

[Jenny in Florida]

If someone tells you they are a vegetarian, and then later you see them eating a hamburger, would you still believe they are a vegetarian?

 

If someone tells you that they are a vegetarian, then also tells you they still really miss eating meat, would you still believe they are a vegetarian?

 

Speaking as a vegetarian (and I know this is a tangent), I'd say no to the first question and yes to the second.

 

From my point of view, what you do is more important than what you say. So, someone who pays lip service to vegetarianism but doesn't follow through is a hypocrite. A vegetarian who struggles with the discipline because he or she wants to do the right thing but honestly misses meat would have my respect.

 

Of course, there's always the possibility that "hamburger" he or she was eating was actually a soy analogue, so I wouldn't jump to judgement.

[Nestof3]

Perhaps not the world, but the fact is that Christianity is the most prevalent religion in the United States. According to Wikipedia (yeah, I know, but it was the quickest place to check), 76% of the U.S. population identifies as Christian.

 

 

I honestly don't see these sorts of polls as accurate. I've met people who say they are Christian yet have never even read the Bible or even the gospels. It's as if religion is some inherited trait like eye color. It is only common sense to me that when in doubt, people are going to identify with whatever religion has been the most familiar to them. By the state of this country, I can say that 3/4ths of the people are not making it a priority to walk in a manner worthy of His calling. Of course, as a Christian who believes Christ is THE one to follow, I care about the religious choice of others, but, in practical terms, I'd be thrilled if 3/4ths of the country followed any religion/code of morals, as I am not aware of any religion that encourages people to steal, rape, murder, lie, flaunt themselves sexually, spout foolishness, cheat, hate, etc.

Edited April 13, 2009 by nestof3

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm sorry, more Wiki. . . I guess I could post it on the "contact with unbelievers" thread, too!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Tares

 

Interesting. I hadn't heard that one.

 

Granted, the only "research" I've done was reading the Wiki article, but it does make one wonder what place those of us who aren't "bad seeds" have in the story?

[*********]

-

Edited April 14, 2009 by bethanyniez
I never should have entered into the discussion.

[OnTheBrink]

I honestly don't see these sorts of polls as accurate. I've met people who say they are Christian yet have never even read the Bible or even the gospels. It's as if religion is some inherited trait like eye color. It is only common sense to me that when in doubt, people are going to identify with whatever religion has been the most familiar to them. By the state of this country, I can say that 3/4ths of the people are not making it a priority to walk in a manner worthy of His calling. Of course, as a Christian who believes Christ is THE one to follow, I care about the religious choice of others, but, in practical terms, I'd be thrilled if 3/4ths of the country followed any religion/code of morals, as I am not aware of any religion that encourages people to steal, rape, murder, lie, flaunt themselves sexually, spout foolishness, cheat, hate, etc.

 

I agree. I think the polls reflect everyone who CALLS themselves Christians. I've seen many people who are "Christian" because they're not anything else, so it's like the default answer. I'd be interested in seeing what the options were on the polls. I'm willing to bet many of those who selected Christian are those who weren't anything else listed, but don't want to say they're nothing.

[Jenny in Florida]

I'd be interested in seeing what the options were on the polls. I'm willing to bet many of those who selected Christian are those who weren't anything else listed, but don't want to say they're nothing.

 

Well, many of the options are listed on Table 3 of the page I linked. There seemed to be a good variety of choices, including a category for "don't know" (which amused me) and "refused to answer."

 

From reading the appendix [ http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/appendix_a.html ] , it appears that this was a free response kind of thing, allowing people to answer as they wished. The researchers grouped the responses after the fact into 13 general categories that included more than 70 movements and denominations.

[Peek a Boo]

I didn't say that Christians are not capable of sinning.

 

I said Christians don't kill people.

 

I am well aware that hatred in my heart is the same as murder.

 

I am not saying that if a Christian hates, that he is not a Christian.

 

I believe there is a difference between struggling with a 'thought' sin and physically carrying out the sin. Not a 'one is better, one is worse' difference. They are both sin. But a Christian who struggles with hatred, takes those thoughts captive, repents, asks the Lord to help them, etc. is much different, in my understanding, than a 'Christian' who takes someone else's life.

 

If someone tells you they are a vegetarian, and then later you see them eating a hamburger, would you still believe they are a vegetarian?

 

If someone tells you that they are a vegetarian, then also tells you they still really miss eating meat, would you still believe they are a vegetarian?

 

That's all my point is.

 

And as I stated previously, I do not wish to debate pacifism/non-resistance. I'm sure we all have different views on if there is ever an apporopriate time/place to kill another person. No matter what your belief on that, I'm sure none of us believe killing a child is ever justified.

 

I'm not talking about pacifism. I'm talking about the fallibility of a Christian. totally different issue.

 

If a Christian "slips" and commits some horrible crime, they can still seek forgiveness and remain a Christian. Scripture is very clear about this.

That you place your own understanding about the different types of sins on a prioritized level does not mean that God sees the same difference that you do.

 

I am just very glad that one's Christianity or salvation is not determined by your understanding, or my own for that matter.

 

fwiw, I made a similar blanket statement awhile back:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14759

pay close attention to post numbers 1, 17, 94, and 123. The posts between around 50 -93 are pretty good too.

[Mommy22alyns]

Perhaps not on the TWTM board, but I can assure you that in real life, I have been told this more times than I can count. I suspect that people would say it here if they weren't afraid of being moderated.

 

And while I am uncomfortable with how many subtly anti-Christian posts seem to be cropping up, my personal opinion is that it comes from the frustration of non-Christians who have to deal with religious bias on a daily basis. It's like someone uncapped the well of frustration and it's pouring out now.

 

I can assure you that non-Christians in this country are routinely made to feel less than and immoral. Most of the Christians I know don't throw their self-believed superiority around, but there are enough in this country who do that I think it would be well to be reminded every once in a while that non-Christians can be fabulous, kind, moral people too.

 

Tara

 

 

 

:iagree: Thank you!

[ConnieB]

What if we had this same discussion but substituted the words "Homeschooler" and "Non-Homeschooler"?

 

Would the results be the same? To some extent, I honestly think it would be......and for this scenario I can say that I probably am a bit of someone who judges (where I don't feel I am on the religion side). I know that if I have a choice of enrolling my kids in a class that is all homeschoolers I do it before I would choose the one open to all (i.e. there are a lot of programs around our area that because of the large population of homeschoolers will have their classes during school hours for the homeschoolers, and then again later for everyone). And while I don't choose my children's friends, I know that I influence it greatly by most of our social activities being with homeschooled families. There are only two families on our block with children near my children's age....and we have never made any effort to even meet them....and we've lived here 7 years. Of course, they have never made any effort either, so what does that say? I know that public school kids, like homeschoolers (like Christians and non-Christians) come in all different types. There are definitely some homeschoolers I prefer to avoid.....but then there are people at work I would like to avoid too, lol. Such is life. I think humans tend to gravitate towards those most like them....so Christians hang with Christians, non-Christians hang with non-Christians......homeschoolers hang with homeschoolers....and while we're on a roll...quilters hang with other quilters and we avoid the knitters, lol.

 

 

But...back to my original pondering......would we all feel the same if we substituted Christian for Homeschool? Do you ever find that you are snubbed or looked down on because you homeschool? Or do others accuse you of thinking you're better than they are because you homeschool your children? Are you better....after all you put a lot of time and effort into your children at the expense of a second income (and all that provides).....and most homeschoolers have a closer relationship with their kids because of all that time they spend together.....and let's not forget that our kids will be better educated because of the one-on-one and hopefully our choices of curriculum were more rigorous than the public schools, and so on and so on and so on.

[Peek a Boo]

Well, many of the options are listed on Table 3 of the page I linked. There seemed to be a good variety of choices, including a category for "don't know" (which amused me) and "refused to answer."

 

From reading the appendix [ http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/appendix_a.html ] , it appears that this was a free response kind of thing, allowing people to answer as they wished. The researchers grouped the responses after the fact into 13 general categories that included more than 70 movements and denominations.

 

This goes back to my statement about how many people "know about" Christianity vs really understand it.

 

"Christianity: love thy neighbor! turn the other cheek! yeah! sounds cool. that must be me. :check:"

[*********]

-

Edited April 14, 2009 by bethanyniez
I never should have entered into the discussion.

[ConnieB]

Connie,

 

 

 

Considering your background -- do you get the feeling that there more going on here that meets the eye with the murder of this poor little girl? I am thinking there is some kind of $*x abuse situtation. I just think there is more than a murder.

 

 

Oh yeah, I think there is a lot more to this story than the public has heard....but then if the news reports are correct (questionable) then it might be that the police don't have the whole story yet either. Of course, that doesn't mean we'll ever truly know.....a lot of times the truth never quite comes out in cases like this.....there is a lot of suspicion but not necessarily enough evidence to prove anything and to always leave a big question mark. Think OJ, lol.

[Peek a Boo]

Peek, this is simiar to 'Well, nobody's perfect'. Which is true.

 

My point is this: is 'Nobody's perfect' your hypocrite's couch, or your bed of thorns?

 

Neither.

 

You are making a blanket statement about what defines a Christian.

 

My point is this: you are completely wrong.

 

The POINT is: is a Christian a Christian based on what they DO or in Whom they place their eternal life?

 

Now if we want to get into the discussion about what a Christian SHOULD strive for, that's something waaaay different from "a Christian doesn't do X."

[Marylou]

I agree. I think the polls reflect everyone who CALLS themselves Christians. I've seen many people who are "Christian" because they're not anything else, so it's like the default answer. I'd be interested in seeing what the options were on the polls. I'm willing to bet many of those who selected Christian are those who weren't anything else listed, but don't want to say they're nothing.

 

 

Albert Mohler talked about this on his blog recently (March 10, 2009)

 

http://www.albertmohler.com/blog.php?selectMonth=03&selectYear=2009

[Jenny in Florida]

But...back to my original pondering......would we all feel the same if we substituted Christian for Homeschool? Do you ever find that you are snubbed or looked down on because you homeschool? Or do others accuse you of thinking you're better than they are because you homeschool your children? Are you better....after all you put a lot of time and effort into your children at the expense of a second income (and all that provides).....and most homeschoolers have a closer relationship with their kids because of all that time they spend together.....and let's not forget that our kids will be better educated because of the one-on-one and hopefully our choices of curriculum were more rigorous than the public schools, and so on and so on and so on.

 

I have lost one friendship supposedly over the fact that I "made her feel badly" about her parenting choices, in particular sending her child to public school. However, I have to say that, even in retrospect, I think that was her hang up and not my attitude. This was a person who told me when she got pregnant that I was her "role model." So, when she started making choices that were different from mine, even though I was supportive, she was sensitive about the contrasts.

 

Otherwise, no, I don't think I've experienced a whole lot of what you're suggesting. I've had numbers of people tell me that they did not have positive feelings about homeschooling until spending time with my kids. And I've had numbers of people tell me that they would like to homeschool but can't. I don't think we've ever been looked down on because we homeschool. (Or, at least I haven't been aware of it.) And I don't feel "better" than others because we do so. It works for us.

 

(And, for what it's worth, that friend I lost? I don't think homeschooling would have been a good fit for her family. I told her so. It didn't help, because apparently that meant that I didn't think she was good enough to homeschool, which wasn't what I meant at all.)

 

I tend to respect people who are thoughtful about what they believe and put their values into action. Period.

 

I actually think I've had more push-back about the vegetarianism than about homeschooling. I can't tell you how many times I've encountered people who want to tell me why my choice is wrong or unhealthy for my children or who immediately get defensive because they've made a different choice. I am not on a mission to convert the world to vegetarianism. In fact, I rarely mention it in conversation unless there's some reason to do so. As I said before, I admire people who think out their chocies and then live by them. I don't demand or expect that they make the same choices I do.

 

I actually think I've experienced more

Edited April 13, 2009 by Jenny in Florida

[*********]

-

Edited April 14, 2009 by bethanyniez
I never should have entered into the discussion.

[coralloyd]

For the Poster- I understand what you are saying. Yes there are many, many good people who are not Christians. Christians can and should be friends with them; even though these friendships will not be as deep as with someone who holds your own beleifs. However, being good is not what makes you a Christian. Accepting the free gift of Jesus' death and resurection, and then repenting of your sin, making him Lord of your life (meaning He is in control now, and you will follow and obey Him), is what makes you a Christian. Being a Christian is what tranforms your life, and as you grow in Christ, your life shows this fruit. Christian first then good deeds follow, not good deeds make you a Christian. As Christians we do good because of our love for Chirst and what He has done for us, it is an expression of our love for Him. Others who are not Christians do good for other reasons.

 

For the Christians here- Read All of Matt. 7 and John 7:24 before you start quoting the do not judge thing. Judge in Matt. means "to pass a sentence, or give ones opinion in a private matter". Judge in John means " to decern, form a mental judgement or opinion". We are to use wisdom, decern, who is and isn't telling us the truth.

This Sunday School teacher is not bearing fruit (Matt. 7: 15-27), that is consistent with being a Christian. Therefore, she should be treated as such -Read: Matt. 18:15-17, and 2 Thess.3:14-15. She has not repented, she should not be treated as, or thought of as a Christian.

 

You shouldn't be angry at the Poster for asking a question like this, you should take issue with the church. They allowed someone like this to teach the children. Because, I just wonder how much prayer or use of decernment, went into hiring her. Many churches tend to except anyone who is willing to do the work. My heart hurts to think about this.

Edited April 13, 2009 by coralloyd

[Peek a Boo]

Well Peek, I believe you are completely wrong.

And such is life. I will just agree to disagree with you. :)

 

unfortunately I can't "agree to disagree" on this.

 

You are stating that a Christian is only a Christian based on what they do.

 

That is unBiblical and there are tons of scriptures that explain why.

 

You are certainly free to drop out of the conversation, but i would strongly urge you to study more indepth if you are going to continue asserting an incorrect salvation by works type of message to others. It's one thing for YOU to be wrong on this, but it seems [to me] even worse if you are leading others down that path as a Titus 2 Christian.

[Nestof3]

Well, many of the options are listed on Table 3 of the page I linked. There seemed to be a good variety of choices, including a category for "don't know" (which amused me) and "refused to answer."

 

 

To further illustrate my point. Let's look at my family of 4: mom, dad, me, brother.

 

4/4ths of us would check off "Christian" on a questionaire like this.

 

My mom

She's probably never heard of another religion except Judaism. When my boys asked her if she was a Christian, she said yes. She's never read the Bible, it's just that when she was growing up, she had only ever been around people who called themselves Christians. She doesn't pray, and she doesn't look to see what Jesus or his disciples said about anything. If pressed, she would say there is no one truth.

 

Me dad

He knows a little more about religions out there, would admit that he doesn't think it matters what religion a person professes because it all boils down to basic morals, and I think he would even say that there is no one truth. Anyone who seriously reads the Bible and tries to apply it is weird -- akin to those ridiculous t.v. evangelists who convinced my grandmother to leave nothing to the antichrist -- but to his ministry, akin to the freaks who kill their kids because they claim the kids have demons.

 

My brother

He is the biggest scoffer of Christians/the Bible, goes to church sometimes because it's a good, moral thing to bring your children up in, and the really good ones serve beer. LOL Christianity is fine as long as you don't have to apply it too much -- it makes people uncomfortable.

 

Neither of them has purposely applied any doctrine to their life. I guess it reminds me of the teaching Aaron gave at our meeting -- the difference between a believer of Jesus and a disciple of Jesus.

[OnTheBrink]

Neither.

 

You are making a blanket statement about what defines a Christian.

 

My point is this: you are completely wrong.

 

The POINT is: is a Christian a Christian based on what they DO or in Whom they place their eternal life?

 

Now if we want to get into the discussion about what a Christian SHOULD strive for, that's something waaaay different from "a Christian doesn't do X."

 

Both. What a Christian does should be determined by in whom they place their eternal life. The Christian's life should not be a life of habitual sin. With true repentance and belief, the Christian should undergo a continual renewing of the mind, desire to serve and obey God. If one claims to be saved, yet their life is no different today than it was before, their "salvation" is questionable. I'm talking about patterns of behavior, here, not mistakes or slip ups that are followed with repentance. Evidences of Christianity are the fruit of the spirit, good works (which are NOT conditions of salvation, but evidence of it), obedience to the Word and grace, among other things. A Christian who claims to have a relationship with Christ, yet has no fruit, no good works, no grace toward others, no thoughts of the Lord or strivings to be in obedience to Him, well, I have to wonder about whether A) they understood what salvation was and what life past the point of that moment of salvation was supposed to look like or B) they are saved at all.

 

Hypocrisy, imo, is "do as I say, not as I do." If I screw something up, learn from that mistake, repent of it and tell someone else not to do it, I'm not a hypocrite. If I choose to live a sinful lifestyle (and pick whatever sin you like here) but preach to others not to, because it's against God, I'm a hypocrite.

[CAMom]

To further illustrate my point. Let's look at my family of 4: mom, dad, me, brother.

 

4/4ths of us would check off "Christian" on a questionaire like this.

 

 

Neither of them has purposely applied any doctrine to their life. I guess it reminds me of the teaching Aaron gave at our meeting -- the difference between a believer of Jesus and a disciple of Jesus.

 

We have a very similar situation. For instance, my in-laws would definitely say they are "Christians." But, it's because they don't understand what being a Christian actually is.

 

To them, it means they believe there is a God. They add to that that they are politically conservative and that they are benevolent (through their very deep involvement with the Elk's Lodge). Bingo--that equals Christian to them. In my experience, that is very typical where I live.

 

Those surveys about what percentage of Americans are "Christians" are grossly inaccurate.

[Haiku]

 

salvation by works

 

I was under the impression that there are Christian denominations that do believe in salvation by works. Am I wrong on that?

 

Tara

[OnTheBrink]

I was under the impression that there are Christian denominations that do believe in salvation by works. Am I wrong on that?

 

Tara

 

No, you're not wrong.

[Peek a Boo]

...being good is not what makes you a Christian. Accepting the free gift of Jesus' death and resurection, and then repenting of your sin, making him Lord of your life (meaning He is in control now, and you will follow and obey Him), is what makes you a Christian.

 

----------------

For the Christians here- Read All of Matt. 7 and John 7:24 before you start quoting the do not judge thing. Judge in Matt. means "to pass a sentence, or give ones opinion in a private matter". Judge in John means " to decern, form a mental judgement or opinion". We are to use wisdom, decern, who is and isn't telling us the truth.

This Sunday School teacher is not bearing fruit (Matt. 7: 15-27), that is consistent with being a Christian. Therefore, she should be treated as such -Read: Matt. 18:15-17, and 2 Thess.3:14-15. She has not repented, she should not be treated as, or thought of as a Christian.

 

 

I'm not saying to "not judge" this person or people like them.

My issue is whether someone who has committed a horrible act can still be a Christian.

 

As you noted, The key IS repentance.

Some Christians wallow in an unrepentant lifestyle for quite some time before coming to true repentance. And I would wager quite a bit that there are several Christians who are NOT completely repenting of various "smaller" issues in their own lives. It can be a HUGE ongoing process.

 

If someone is a Christian, commits some horrible crime, then repents, did they STOP being a Christian when they committed those acts? Did they lose their salvation during the 5 minutes it took to commit the act and [possibly] repent?? How will other Christians be able to discern whether one has truly repented if they have cut off all contact, completely? i do agree there is an order to be kept, but my issue is w/ a person deciding whether one is or is not A Christian, period.

Note that Matt 18 says to TREAT him as an unbeliever-- that includes witnessing :) It doesn't say that person is NOT a believer.

 

2 Thess 3: 4If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

 

we are absolutely to consider them still a person worthy of hearing God's Word.

 

I am not God, so I will choose to err on the side of NOT judging someone's heart here. Judge their actions? you betcha. place them in jail. But only God knows the heart, and it's that heart issue that i am speaking of.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[Peek a Boo]

Both. What a Christian does should be determined by in whom they place their eternal life. The Christian's life should not be a life of habitual sin. With true repentance and belief, the Christian should undergo a continual renewing of the mind, desire to serve and obey God. If one claims to be saved, yet their life is no different today than it was before, their "salvation" is questionable. I'm talking about patterns of behavior, here, not mistakes or slip ups that are followed with repentance. Evidences of Christianity are the fruit of the spirit, good works (which are NOT conditions of salvation, but evidence of it), obedience to the Word and grace, among other things. A Christian who claims to have a relationship with Christ, yet has no fruit, no good works, no grace toward others, no thoughts of the Lord or strivings to be in obedience to Him, well, I have to wonder about whether A) they understood what salvation was and what life past the point of that moment of salvation was supposed to look like or B) they are saved at all.

 

 

I agree with this. My point was about the blanket statement that Christians don't kill other people.

 

Christians certainly are capable of killing someone else and still being a Christian. i agree that a serial killer probably isn't a Christian.

 

but then again, Christians are also capable of truly misunderstanding what the Bible says and still being a Christian ;)

[OnTheBrink]

I agree with this. My point was about the blanket statement that Christians don't kill other people.

 

Christians certainly are capable of killing someone else and still being a Christian. i agree that a serial killer probably isn't a Christian.

 

but then again, Christians are also capable of truly misunderstanding what the Bible says and still being a Christian ;)

 

I agree with that. :001_smile:

[Peek a Boo]

I was under the impression that there are Christian denominations that do believe in salvation by works. Am I wrong on that?

 

Tara

 

no, you're not wrong. :)

back to what i shared in myprevious post:

 

but then again, Christians are also capable of truly misunderstanding what the Bible says and still being a Christian ;)

[*********]

-

Edited April 14, 2009 by bethanyniez
I never should have entered into the discussion.

[Peek a Boo]

Hey peek, you don't know me. I don't believe in salvation by works. You are reading a lot more into ONE SENCTENCE than I ever intended. I never stated that a Christian is only a Christian based on what they do. You are trying to fit me in some sort of box that I don't live in.

 

I believe true salvation mainfests itself in fruit of the Spirit. One of which is NOT murder. That was ALL MY POINT WAS.

 

I am NOT wrong on this. Just becuase you don't understand clearly my position on this one matter does not make me wrong.

 

And frankly I find the 'do whatever you want, and you can still be a Christian because you can ask for forgiveness later' type message to be a very dangerous path to lead others down, AS WELL AS a salvation by works path. Which, again, I NEVER SAID NOR DO I BELIEVE.

 

You are STATING a whole lot more in one sentence than you might have intended.

 

Feel free to retract your original blanket statement and rephrase.

I am totally cool w/ trying to understand completely your position- that's what we do as Christians: strive to understand and communicate.

But saying as a rule -several times now- that Christians don't kill other people is scripturally wrong and is a salvation by works message.

 

I was pretty clear that it's not a matter of "do what you want and then ask for forgiveness" - i was directly addressing whether one CAN BE a Christian even if they do SOMETHING wrong -believe in justified wars, lethal self-defense, specific diets, type of communion/ baptism, abortion rights, kill someone, commit adultery, etc.

 

We can not save ourselves. Period. Our works --and even the spoiled fruit we sometimes produce-- will sell us out every. time.

 

Our fruit should absolutely evidence a changed life, but that doesn't mean that Every Fruit we produce will be good.

[*********]

-

Edited April 14, 2009 by bethanyniez
I never should have entered into the discussion.

[coralloyd]

One more thing.

The word "Believe" in Jonh 3:16 means more than- just believe He died for me (as in know He did). In the greek it means :to have faith in, to entrust, credit, commit to trust, put trust with, following.

Trust in the dictionary is: Cofidence, reliance, moral responsibility to rely on, to entrust, to hope in, to confide in.

 

Yes, as Christians we fail. Ultimately though, we desire to restore our relationship with the One we say we completely trust in, and are commited to following. This is where repentance comes in. If we truly LOVE him we will always strive to go back to what true LOVE means (1 Cor. 13), Putting Him before ourselves.

[Marylou]

King David was an adulterer and a murderer. Moses murdered a man. Whichever disciple sliced the ear off of the soldier in Gethsemane was a murderer in his heart (do you really believe he was just going for an ear!)

 

Jeffrey Dahmer was a murderer and was murdered himself. It is recorded that he repented and trusted in Christ for his salvation.

 

I think we will see many, many folks in heaven who murdered (physically) and we will not be surprised at all. It won't be their repentance that saved them, but God's grace through Christ Jesus.

[Peek a Boo]

No thanks to the first bolded one.

 

And nope again to the second bolded one. This is where we disagree.

 

I never said we could save ourselves.

 

and this is where i will continue to point out that when you say "a Christian doesn't do X" you are by default asserting a salvation by works message.

 

Are you saying that you believe that Christians lose their salvation --lose what makes them Christian-- during those times that they do wrong things?

 

i gotta run, but i really am interested in making sure I understand what you are saying.

[Peek a Boo]

 

Yes, as Christians we fail. Ultimately though, we desire to restore our relationship with the One we say we completely trust in, and are commited to following. ...

 

I agree with this.

[*********]

-

Edited April 14, 2009 by bethanyniez
I never should have entered into the discussion.

[OnTheBrink]

King David was an adulterer and a murderer. Moses murdered a man. Whichever disciple sliced the ear off of the soldier in Gethsemane was a murderer in his heart (do you really believe he was just going for an ear!)

 

Jeffrey Dahmer was a murderer and was murdered himself. It is recorded that he repented and trusted in Christ for his salvation.

 

I think we will see many, many folks in heaven who murdered (physically) and we will not be surprised at all. It won't be their repentance that saved them, but God's grace through Christ Jesus.

 

King David was repentant. As was Moses. I can't judge what Peter had in his heart and I won't speculate his intentions and thus add to the Word.

 

Are you saying God saves the unrepentant?

[Greta]

I disagree with this. Christians are sinners just like everyone else, and quite capable of murder and all the other sins of the world. The difference is the "forgiveness factor".

 

Just wanted to say that I appreciate this. A few years ago, there was a bit on the national news about two groups of Buddhist monks who got into this huge fist-fight because both sides were laying claim to some ancient Buddhist relic. Since I self-identified as Buddhist at the time, it was very sad to me that people could act this way "in the name of Buddha" who taught compassion, peace, and non-attachment! In those moments of rage and selfishness, they had clearly forgotten or put aside the Buddha's teachings. But did that mean that these men weren't Buddhists? No, it simply meant that Buddhists, like everyone else, are human and sometimes make very poor choices. We are Buddhists, not (unfortunately) living Buddhas. Just like Christians are Christians, but not (unfortunately) the living embodiment of Christ's principles. People from all faiths and all walks of life are still people.

[Rosie_0801]

Nope, that's not what I'm saying. Never said that.

 

Man, you've got yourself all worked up about this, and you keep trying to put words in my mouth. No matter what else you accuse me of saying, I'm done. You win, I lose, I quit, whatever. :001_smile:

 

I've had enough conversations like this irl to know when someone just wants me to be wrong, and them to be right.

 

 

I feel obliged to put in a positive word for Peek's reputation. She doesn't argue like this to make her right and you wrong. She's just a very convicted lady who likes arguing. I don't remember having seen her change her mind, but I suspect that's because she's already thought it through. I think she thinks too much ;)

 

Anyway, I don't blame you for wanting to quit arguing with her. I can only sustain discussions with her for so long before I feel too exhausted.

 

;)

 

Rosie

[Peek a Boo]

Nope, that's not what I'm saying. Never said that.

 

Man, you've got yourself all worked up about this, and you keep trying to put words in my mouth. No matter what else you accuse me of saying, I'm done. You win, I lose, I quit, whatever. :001_smile:

 

I've had enough conversations like this irl to know when someone just wants me to be wrong, and them to be right.

 

ok, what you said was "Christians don't kill."

that's not an accusation: it's your own words that i didn't have to put in your mouth.

 

yeah, i tend to get a little worked up when someone tries to play God and decide whether another person is a Christian or not by what that person does or may have done. It's one thing to decisively judge and condemn what another person has done, but only God know their relationship w/ Christ.

 

and yes Ms Rosie-- the thread I linked for her was an example of me being proved wrong. On religion and abortion, no less. ;) i can absolutely be persuaded to change my mind, but not by insisting that YOU are right. :D

 

I do not really like to argue for argument's sake, but i do appreciate people backing up their stance. As a Christian, we are called to be ready to give an accounting of our faith. That's all I'm asking based on something someone else - a sister in Christ--said.

 

Her statement as she phrased it demands that there are no Christians in the military or police force. Even as a pretty staunch pacifist I know that to be untrue.

[Peek a Boo]

King David was repentant. As was Moses. I can't judge what Peter had in his heart and I won't speculate his intentions and thus add to the Word.

 

Are you saying God saves the unrepentant?

 

Is it a sin to be unrepentant?

Did Christ die for our sins?

Is it possible to be showing good fruit from Christ in most areas, but stumble in others?

Does our salvation rely on our ability to be truly repentant?

Or does our salvation rely on us putting ALL our sins --even our inability to see those few areas where we are stumbling-- in Christ's hands?

[Erica in PA]

It saddens me greatly to learn that Bible Study groups are actually being taught (or is that not the correct term here?) to not be friends with non-Christians. I just don't know what to say.

 

Astrid

 

It saddens me also, as a Christian, because that is not a biblical teaching. I hope others do not see that post above and conclude that this is the norm of what Christians believe. I have been a Christian for almost 20 years now, attended a conservative Bible college, and have been actively involved in a great variety of churches and ministries, encountering many, many Christians along the way, and never ONCE have I ever either heard that taught, nor known anyone who believed that. It must be a very, very small number of Christians, even among the very conservative ones. It is not generally true, I can say that with certainty.

 

There are plenty of things that one can legitimately find fault for among Christians-- I do not believe that a widespread belief that one cannot be friends with those who are not Christians is one of them.

[SherryTX]

I'm half-tempted to take a poll and find out just how many Christians actually avoid being friends with anyone who is not a Christian. It's being discussed and debated on this board as though it's a regular phenomenon, when in reality, I do not know a single Christian who is not friends with non-Christians. :confused:

 

I haven't read all the replies, and wanted to respond to this one, so I apologize if someone else may have posted something similar to what I am writing.

 

When I was a Christian, in my particular faith, we were encouraged to not regularly associate with those that weren't of the same faith. However, most of us did have some friends not of the same faith, and those were very nice people.

 

However, what has surprised me is when I moved to TX and started to meet a LOT more atheists (because I was seeking them out - living in the bible belt can be hard when you don't go to church to find a "community") I was sometimes taken aback by how many atheists avoided Christians. In their defense, I found it was because most had bad experiences.

 

So yeah - it is true you have good people who are religious, and those that are non believers - and you have complete jerks that are Christian, and there are complete jerks that are not.

 

I don't attribute the murder of that little girl (if the lady is guilty) to have anything to do directly with her being a Christian. From what I read so far, she sounds a bit of a mental case. (And there are plenty of those inside and outside of religion.)

 

I don't think the original poster was bashing Christians or picking on anyone. This board is probably what - 90% Christian? I have no qualms with that, I figured it would be when I came over here. But sometimes one reads some of the posts, and it is easy to feel like things are slanted against nonbelievers - SOMETIMES. That doesn't mean they are necessarily. Sometimes we read something into things that are not really there.

 

So, don't worry about it.

[OnTheBrink]

Is it a sin to be unrepentant?

Did Christ die for our sins?

Is it possible to be showing good fruit from Christ in most areas, but stumble in others?

Does our salvation rely on our ability to be truly repentant?

Or does our salvation rely on us putting ALL our sins --even our inability to see those few areas where we are stumbling-- in Christ's hands?

 

Mark 1:14-15

 

14(A)Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, (B)preaching the gospel of God,

 

15and saying, "©The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; (D)repent and believe in the gospel."

 

Luke 5:31-32

31And Jesus answered and said to them, "(A)It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.

 

32"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

 

Luke 13:2-3

 

2And Jesus said to them, "(A)Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?

 

3"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

 

Acts 2:37-39

37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, (A)what shall we do?"

 

38Peter said to them, "(B)Repent, and each of you be ©baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

39"For (D)the promise is for you and your children and for all who are (E)far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

 

Acts 17:29-31

 

29"Being then the children of God, we (A)ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

 

30"Therefore having (B)overlooked ©the times of ignorance, God is (D)now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

 

31because He has fixed (E)a day in which (F)He will judge (G)the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has (H)appointed, having furnished proof to all men by (I)raising Him from the dead."

 

Yeah, God calls for repentance of sins, known and unknown; and yeah, if you're not repentant, you're not forgiven of sins. The death on the cross was for everyone, but not everyone will repent and kneel at the cross. Those in rebellion against God are not saved.

 

What is the point of salvation if there is no repentance? Do you believe everyone is saved, regardless of their heart toward God, simply because Jesus died and rose again?