US Education Sec says kids should be in school 11 mos/6 days a week

[AuntPol]

Having just pulled my kids out of NC government schools, I can tell you that they don't practice what they preach. This is especially true in Wake County schools, which exist soley as a social engineering project.

[Karen in CO]

see - i Knew It would make more sense to me when I had some sleep. Now I'm clear about what you were saying. Back to just agreeing again.

 

Have you read Gatto's The Seven Lesson School Teacher ? He posited that no matter what schools attempt to teach during their lessons, by their very structure they are teaching something entirely different. They teach confusion, position, indifference, emotional dependency, intellectual dependency.....

 

I know that in the past schools did a better job of teaching content - my grandparents and parents went to tiny, rural, empoverished public schools. They received a much better education than my son's friends did at the local, well-funded, high-performing school district.

[KidsHappen]

It is almost impossible to standardize school schedules in a country as diverse as America in a way which will make everyone happy. Scheduling is one of the main reasons that we still homeschool. I like to school year round with a month off in Dec and July. The law requires that we school 4 hours per day. That is diificult for the 4th grader. We can easily finish all set work in 2 hours per day. She then does an hour of independent reading and then we count all art, music, sports and such to make up the rest. The high schoolers easily work 4 hours per day. We also have weird hours at my house. We don;t usually go to bed until at least 1:00 am and the sleep late. We school in the afternoons.

 

I have one child in PS and she really screws up the schedule around here. First of all, she has to get up at 6:00 am and be on the bus by 7:00. She gets home at 3:00. She is allowed two hours personal time and then an hour for dinner, showering and getting ready for school next day (she packs her lunch, lays out her clothes, and gets her backpack ready), she has one hour of independent reading and then she does homework. Sometimes she doesn't get to bed until 10:00. She does not get enough sleep during the week and she has homework on the weekends. SHe frequently doesn not learn what she needs to know to complete her homework so I have to teach her after school as well. We can not go on a family trip whenever we want nor can we plan evening activities on school nights. She misses out on family games, movies and trips to Taco Bell because she is either doing homework of sleeping.

 

And this just deals with the scheduling difficulties of PS. When you start throwing in the educating aspects to meet the diverse needs of our population it quickly becomes overwhelming. Our system does not work anymore and needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from scratch. And there needs to be imput from people other than the government, education administration and teachers. WE need to find out how to meet the needs of the children, parents and prepare for the jobs our society needs done. I have no idea how to do that and make everyone happy. This is also another reason that we homeschool. I can manage to educate my children to the best of their own abilities for the jobs they want to do when they are grown and somewhat to meet the needs of our family. I would never presume to make these decisions for other families and I can't really imagine how anyone else could either.

[mazakaal]

I got many college credits for my scores on my AP exams. I didn't have to take the next course up or anything. I was able to graduate from college in 3 years because of all the credits that I had earned in high school. I guess it does depend on what college you're in. I would not have been happy if I'd done all that work in high school and had nothing to show for it.

[Jumping In Puddles]

I was talking about the history of education based on what the social reformers John Dewey and Horace Mann proposed back in the late 19th century, based on the Prussian model of education. Yes, Gatto has written about it, but he simply researched and wrote about the history of ed in America. Before government schools were widely in place there was an over 90% literacy rate in America. Wealthy families frequently paid for private tutoring "schools" for those who couldn't afford it. Kids went to school already knowing how to read. They went to school to learn Latin and higher math and philosophy, not how to define a family or to participate in group projects.

 

Schools are now turning out non-workers with a high sense of entitlement because that is the logical consequence of the system. If we create an environment that is set up to create passivity and anti-thought but the participants have a firm belief in themselves (this, too is well documented; American kids score at the bottom of the barrel in terms of true academics but feel better about themselves than most) than of course you're going to have a group of people that believe that should get lots for little. This is one of the consequences of a socialistic belief system as well. Why should I work hard if I'm entitled anyway?

 

I think we are all basically agreeing here :confused: which is why we called the school system broken. The only disagreement I have is that I don't think that the goals of the school system are the same as they were at the turn of the 20th century.

 

The schools have many problems (which is why I think it is broken, should be totally scrapped and we should start over with Heather in NC as the Secretary of Education ;)) but I don't think the problem is that the government wants to turn out compliant, low wage workers and just "getting the kids off the streets" like they once did.

 

I am educating my kids at home because I don't want any part of that broken, incompetent system but I would LOVE to be a part of a movement to help the country place education as a priority. Homeschooling is definitely part of the answer for many Americans but they just don't know it! :tongue_smilie:

[Audrey]

The NC mission statement sound more like they are trying to get children to be ok with a one world government more than anything else. How many times did they use the word global?????????

 

 

That's because "global" was the important buzz word when they wrote it. Also, note how many times they used the phrase "21st Century." More buzz-speak.

 

.... full of sound and fury; signifying nothing...

[laughing lioness]

The schools are so focused on the idea of teaching "critical thinking" that they aren't teaching much content. I don't believe that they are trying to create non-thinkers. I think they are attempting to create thinkers but failing miserably in the execution.

 

If critical thinking skills were truly a priority multi-guess questions would be obsolete. There would be no teaching to the test and we would know what socratic quesioning and lit analysis were when we left the system.

I also agree that many kids today don't have anything to think about. People comment on our kids maturity and how "smart" they are all the time-I attribute this to a couple of things: they talk respectfully to adults, look them in the eye and are polite. They are well-read, they read the classics, Science News, the Bible, Calvin and Hobbes, Jane Austin, Kingfisher's, SOTW, Nat'l Geographic, Eusebeus, Rules of St. Benedict, Shakespeare, poetry, etc.etc. They have time to read. We don't watch T.V. or have electronic games, and on-line time is limited..but that's a different discussion ;)

 

I'm still in primary process here but if you read what people like George Sorros are doing and saying (the 1% telling the 10% how to run the 90%) you'll see that there is definilty an agenda for our government systems, most definilty including education.

I think the system could be changed if we got rid of the NEA. Totally. It is an obsolete monopoly that wields an enormous amount of power. If families and churches realized that educating our kids is a mandate (I have been loving Chaim Potok's books and one of the reasons is the incredible vision of education in the culture that is portrayed).

So many more thoughts but I've gotta run.....

[cathmom]

Having just pulled my kids out of NC government schools, I can tell you that they don't practice what they preach. This is especially true in Wake County schools, which exist soley as a social engineering project.

 

Can you comment more on this? Thanks!

[myfunnybunch]

The school system is broken and is a failure but in context of the goals of our education system, do you really think our schools have the same goals as they did at their inception?

 

Regardless of the goals that schools have set for today, they still are operating within a system that was created with different goals. We're trying to accomplish particular goals (creative flexible thinking, global competitiveness and so forth) using a system designed for a different purpose in a different time.

 

We're trying to make tacos out of chocolate cake batter, and we're getting neither tacos nor chocolate cake. (Heh. Or rather, Bleh.)

 

Cat

[Renee in NC]

Can you comment more on this? Thanks!

 

They constantly re-district the schools in an attempt to have a perfect balance of socioeconomic level and race at each school. The idea is that by doing this no school (and therby no student) will be disadvantaged, while the reality is that it makes all students disadvantaged (in my opinion, anyway.)

[Murphy101]

schools, which exist soley as a social engineering project.

 

pretty much sums up my opinion and expereince on my kids schools when they were in and my own k-12 public schooling too.

[Jumping In Puddles]

Regardless of the goals that schools have set for today, they still are operating within a system that was created with different goals. We're trying to accomplish particular goals (creative flexible thinking, global competitiveness and so forth) using a system designed for a different purpose in a different time.

 

We're trying to make tacos out of chocolate cake batter, and we're getting neither tacos nor chocolate cake. (Heh. Or rather, Bleh.)

 

Cat

 

I don't disagree with this at all! I think so far, every post in this thread is in agreement that the system is too broken to be fixed.

 

Now, how we should start from scratch and build an education system (hey, that might be fun! :D ) is where I think we would see a lot of different ideas. I bet every one of them would be better than the garbage we have now as a system.

[cathmom]

They constantly re-district the schools in an attempt to have a perfect balance of socioeconomic level and race at each school. The idea is that by doing this no school (and therby no student) will be disadvantaged, while the reality is that it makes all students disadvantaged (in my opinion, anyway.)

 

I thought the constant redistricting was because of population growth! You mean it isn't actually necessary?

[Renee in NC]

I thought the constant redistricting was because of population growth! You mean it isn't actually necessary?

 

Some of it is (as they open new schools) but much of it is to "balance" the system. Some kids would have to move as new developments happened and new schools opened, but they can't have all the kids from one large development go to one school, so they split them up among 2-3, which means that some of the other students at that school have to move, and so on. They don't district based on location at all - some students' busses go past 2-3 other schools before they get to their own.

[cathmom]

Some of it is (as they open new schools) but much of it is to "balance" the system. Some kids would have to move as new developments happened and new schools opened, but they can't have all the kids from one large development go to one school, so they split them up among 2-3, which means that some of the other students at that school have to move, and so on. They don't district based on location at all - some students' busses go past 2-3 other schools before they get to their own.

 

that's nuts!

[Murphy101]

that's nuts!

 

that's pretty much the theme for public schools and politics in general isn't it?:D

[AuntPol]

that's nuts!

 

 

Drama Queen has it right. The redistricting is soley for social engineering.

 

They take the kids that are "low income" and spread them out among the schools so that the test scores look good. If you look at the data though, the low-SES group passes the test at the same rate whether they are at a school that is majority low SES or majority high income. However, the scores do drop for the non-low income kids as the number of low-SES kids increases.

 

We have kids who have a 40 minute or more commute to get to school and pass other schools along the way. I could go on and on about how the make schools a magnet to bring in the middle class and then that doesn't help enough, so they bus out the poor kids and the magnet school becomes a middle class school and thus loses it's magnet status and then the cycle starts over.

 

Now that's just the assignments of school. The whole mess gets worse when you get in the school. I have never seen a more racist institution than the government schools. It's mind boggling. Then there is the intentional dumbing down of our youth. Crazy.

[Rosie_0801]

I know that in the past schools did a better job of teaching content - my grandparents and parents went to tiny, rural, empoverished public schools. They received a much better education than my son's friends did at the local, well-funded, high-performing school district.

 

Yeah well, educational outcomes have nothing to do with the age of the carpet, and that's where education funding is going over here. The big cry of the government at the moment is about building new schools. Not sure what good that will do, when there was nothing wrong with the old buildings they closed down not long ago.

 

Rosie

[Rosie_0801]

Couple that with over crowded classrooms filled with children whose parents are apathetic about their own future much less their children's, administrators overwhelmed with discipline issues and bureacratic redtape, and a culture that supports the idea that you are entitled to whatever you want, instant gratification, no work required.....

 

 

Funnily, it's often the parents who have the instant gratification requirements, not the kids. I was a guide leader for quite a few years and we'd get kids who'd be willing to work for an award, and parents who'd try to prevent it. I always found the best thing to do was ask the kids to do a smidge more than they were willing to do, and they'd do it. These parents though, would demand they do *far* less than the kids were willing to do. What sort of silliness is that?!!

 

Rosie

[Rosie_0801]

So I was just chatting to Dh, and I think I've found a model to completely revolutionise the school system. How about instead of having a bunch of schools that were doing a better or worse job of much the same thing, we have K-12 schools that follow different philosophies to choose from. At the end of year 12, they can administer a uni entrance exam. No need to spend years teaching to the test because that particular exam wouldn't be based on content, but comprehension type thinking skills.

 

What do you rekon?

 

;)

Rosie

[Perry]

You may be on to something there Rosie! I am all for small, local control, parental choice and I think that a uni entrance exam based on thinking skills could help stop all of those lower skill from being replicas of one another that just teach to the test. I like it.

 

 

I would be in favor of local control IF there is a great deal of variety between the schools. We have had local control in Iowa forever, and it really is meaningless, because all the schools teach the same things, the same way. The only difference between the schools are the demographics.

[Carrie12345]

Drama Queen has it right. The redistricting is soley for social engineering.

 

They take the kids that are "low income" and spread them out among the schools so that the test scores look good. If you look at the data though, the low-SES group passes the test at the same rate whether they are at a school that is majority low SES or majority high income. However, the scores do drop for the non-low income kids as the number of low-SES kids increases.

 

We have kids who have a 40 minute or more commute to get to school and pass other schools along the way. I could go on and on about how the make schools a magnet to bring in the middle class and then that doesn't help enough, so they bus out the poor kids and the magnet school becomes a middle class school and thus loses it's magnet status and then the cycle starts over.

 

Now that's just the assignments of school. The whole mess gets worse when you get in the school. I have never seen a more racist institution than the government schools. It's mind boggling. Then there is the intentional dumbing down of our youth. Crazy.

 

Our district split into 2 high schools a few years ago- one on the low-income side, the other on the upper-income side.

 

My development crosses 3 counties, 4 school districts, and multiple elementary schools within districts. There's an elementary school 8 miles down the road. We're zoned for the school 18 miles in the other direction.

 

It. Is. Crazy.

[Margaret in GA]

I do believe that this is why our school system was created but I have a hard time believing that teachers and school administrators all still have this goal in mind. It benefits our government and our country to have students that are literate and perform well, not just as drones, but as scientists and doctors, college professors and politicians.

 

 

 

 

:iagree: The school system is broken and is a failure but in context of the goals of our education system, do you really think our schools have the same goals as they did at their inception?

 

No, they don't. The problem in our local public high school is that they claim that their goal is to educate every single student so that they are college-ready. Now, most of us here understand that not every student can and should go to college. Naturally, because this is an impossible goal the dropout rate is 40%. It's an exercise in frustration. Even the ones that manage to graduate... there is no way every one of them is able to attend a college. Yet, they've been set up to expect it.

 

And I agree, we need a radical change. These schools were set up for one thing and now trying to accomplish another goal entirely.

 

Margaret

[Peggy in Va]

In my parents' school days, kids (in elementary grades) had lots of free play time breaking up the day (they called it "recess" -- anyone remember that?), and no homework. And kids performed well on standardized tests.

 

Nowadays, kids get very little, if ANY, recess, and they are sent home every night with hours worth of homework, essentially extending the school day until bedtime.

 

And performance on standardized tests, graduation rates, and literacy rates are dropping like stones.

 

And the solution to this is more school? :banghead:

:iagree:Oh yea. None of my grandparents went beyond 6th grade and yet they are some of the smartest people I know. They undestood econ, biz, physics, writing, etc. and they all had excellent handwriting-lol!

not to mention all of the pracitical skills that they knew-plumbing, wiring, sewing, knitting, animal husbandry, etc.etc.

Bring on the weed-wacker!

 

Assuming your parents are in say their 50's/60's, they also had something else todays kids don't have, only 4 (5 (PBS) if they were lucky) t.v. stations. Those show that were geared to kids were on for about 1 hour max in the afternoon and Saturday morning cartoons.

 

They also didn't have computers and an unlimited variety of video games.

 

Because of this they were forced to go (gasp) outside and play, to use their imaginations. It also put them in a position to have more opportunity to read. Both of these made them better able to grasp the material being taught to them. Not to mention, they weren't forced to learn all to PC garbage that is taught in schools today and takes up so much time. The curriculum was much simpler.

 

I'll never forget the time my two youngest dss asked me if we had computers or video games when I was a kid. I laughed and said, "No, we didn't. We were forced to go outside and play. We learned how to use our imagination so that we could invent the computers and video games that suck out your brain cells."

 

I don't believe six days a week is going to solve any of the problems our schools and/or society as a whole face today. I know in our district there was talk about cutting the week to 4 days and extending each day by 1 hour. However, this was because of utility prices.

[kelouis75]

Drama Queen has it right. The redistricting is soley for social engineering.

 

They take the kids that are "low income" and spread them out among the schools so that the test scores look good. If you look at the data though, the low-SES group passes the test at the same rate whether they are at a school that is majority low SES or majority high income. However, the scores do drop for the non-low income kids as the number of low-SES kids increases.

 

We have kids who have a 40 minute or more commute to get to school and pass other schools along the way. I could go on and on about how the make schools a magnet to bring in the middle class and then that doesn't help enough, so they bus out the poor kids and the magnet school becomes a middle class school and thus loses it's magnet status and then the cycle starts over.

 

Now that's just the assignments of school. The whole mess gets worse when you get in the school. I have never seen a more racist institution than the government schools. It's mind boggling. Then there is the intentional dumbing down of our youth. Crazy.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about "low income" or charters / magnets... :tongue_smilie:

 

There are quite a few magnets in "lower income" areas in my metro that out perform many of the "richer" districts--simply because the parents care about how their children are educated...

 

These parents don't pawn their kids off on the nearest kumon or sylvan learning sytem with the hopes that money will buy their education...

 

Instead, they are highly involved.

 

I think we should be careful when we make generalizations. The issue is the priority that families put on education... not how much money the family has nor where they live...

 

As for the original issue-- Until families demand more from the public school systems (or enough parents pull their kids out), we will see much of the same: Poor education in an affluent society.

Edited April 14, 2009 by kelouis75