if you vaccinate, will you have your daughters get this?

[lionfamily1999]

They tried to make it mandatory for girls in sixth grade in Virginia.

 

I was ready to move.

 

This vaccine sounds too good to be true, because it is. My dd is not getting it.

[Alice]

I would caution you to not take offense where none was intended.

 

The statement was made as a direct result of hearing the OP is being pressured by her doc to have her dd get the vaccine. While YOU may not fall into the Stereotypical Doctor group, there are a LOT who do. Same w/ teachers --they are teaching and being trained in an inherently faulty system, even tho most are [i am sure] Very Good Teachers.

 

If you truly want to show that you are not part of a corrupt establishment, then i would encourage you to actually participate in the discussion about the merits and issues regarding this vaccine. This is, after all, a discussion board.

 

Wow. I still think the post was offensive. It didn't say "your doctor sounds really pushy, find a new one" it said "doctors are trained by a corrupt establishment." I'm sorry but I think that's offensive. I wouldn't post that I think all florists are crooks or librarians are evil or any sweeping generalization about a group. (I'm picking examples where people will hopefully realize I don't really feel that way but the point is the same.) I did once post about drug reps in a negative way and got called on it my a drug reps wife. I later publicly and privately apologized to her as I realized it was offensive.

 

Here's some thoughts on Gardasil....

HPV is widely recognized as the major cause of cervical cancer. Gardasil protects against 4 strains of HPV. Two of the strains 16 and 18 cause 70% of cervical cancer, two of the strains 6 and 11 cause 90% of gential warts.

So, no, gardasil will not be 100% effective against cervical cancer but should dramatically reduce the rate.

 

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/risk/HPV.

 

Cervical cancer is newly diagnosed in over 11,000 women a year and causes over 4,000 deaths a year in the US. The average rate of cervical cancer in the US is 8/100,000 women.

 

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?cat=10&ind=473

 

I've seen it quoted as higher but most sources say at least 50% of women will be infected with HPV in their lifetime. You can carry HPV without symptoms so a woman can get it on first sexual contact from a future partner if he had any other sexual partners at any time.

 

Most people do clear HPV on their own. So although 50% or more are infected at some point, much much less go on to devleop lesions or ultimately cancer. The problem is there is no way to predict who is going to go on to cancer and who will not. After the routine use of the Pap smear the rate of cervical cancer declined by 75% over a 20 year period. So the Pap smear is very good at detecting early lesions and helping to prevent cervical cancer but it is not perfect. The risk of cervical cancer rises with age, and many women stop having Pap smears as they get older as they don't realize they are at risk.

 

About 26 million doses of Gardisil have been given in the US since 2006. More have been given worldwide. There have been 11,916 reports to VAERS as of Dec 31, 2008. 94% of those were deemed non-serious (pain at injection site, fainting, nausea). 6% were serious. The CDC analysis is that there is no common pattern to those serious side effects that suggests causality with Gardasil.

 

VAERS is a system that is in no way perfect. There is likely underreporting to some extent. However, when you make a report to VAERS there is no need to prove cause. If I have a patient who got a shot and a week later has an appendectomy I can report that as an adverse effect. This is good because if enough are reported it might be discovered that in fact the X shot causes appendictitis. However, when I make the report there is no burden of proof...I'm just saying I noticed this event that occured near the shot.

 

As for the side effects that have been reported, they are scary. The blood clots were primarily in women who had other high risk for blood clots (birth control pills). The deaths that I've seen are incredibly sad but I'm not convinced that they were caused by Gardasil.

 

http://origin.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaers/gardasil.htm

 

My personal feeling about the shot is that I think it was way over-marketed by Merck. It was too in your face and inappropriate. I absolutely disagree with making it mandatory. I offer it to my patients or at least bring it up to see if they've heard of it (everyone has) and if they have any questions. Some choose it, some don't. I would always say if you have a doctor who you think is being pushy or not listening to you it's time to find a new one.

 

When I said I didn't want to discuss it, I didn't mean to be dismissive. I just don't usually get into debates of any kind here, I'm not someone who enjoyed the political threads. I read these kind of threads to see what people are thinking about vaccines or medicine. It's interesting and helpful to me. I wouldn't have posted at all if I hadn't found the tone to be offensive, and I still think it was. I can respect others opinions and can respect all the people who don't vaccinate or selectively vaccinate. But it would be nice if it didn't get to the point of calling people who disagree with your point of view "corrupt.".

Edited March 24, 2009 by Alice
correcting my poor spelling

[Peek a Boo]

Wow. I still think the post was offensive. It didn't say "your doctor sounds really push, find a new one" it said "doctors are trained by a corrupt establishment." I'm sorry but I think that's offensive. I wouldn't post that I think all florists are crooks or librarians are evil or any sweeping generalization about a group. (I'm picking examples where people will hopefully realize I don't really feel that way but the point is the same.)

.....

When I said I didn't want to discuss it, I didn't mean to be dismissive. I just don't usually get into debates of any kind here, I'm not someone who enjoyed the political threads. I read these kind of threads to see what people are thinking about vaccines or medicine. It's interesting and helpful to me. I wouldn't have posted at all if I hadn't found the tone to be offensive, and I still think it was. I can respect others opinions and can respect all the people who don't vaccinate or selectively vaccinate. But it would be nice if it didn't get to the point of calling people who disagree with your point of view "corrupt.".

 

Thank you for your perspective :)

I think you did a great job sharing your info and opinion about the topic at hand, and i don't blame you for avoiding the political fray ;)

 

I have to disagree that the system training professionals is NOT "corrupt" --The NEA has some corrupt practices. Unions have some corrupt practices. Attorneys. Doctors. Even homeschool groups can be corrupt. The bigger a system is, the more susceptible it is to corruption. Especially when you get into politics, education, and healthcare. Manymanymany greedy grubbing palms are looking at the cost benefit analysis of a course of action or a way to up the profit.

 

As I mentioned, even tho I am sure that several individuals come out of their training w/ a great ability to consider things w/o being biased by propaganda, the *establishment* itself is already full of corruption.

 

Doctors are trained by a corrupt establishment funded by people who make vaccines.

 

I agree that the statement is offensive.

The fact it occurs is offensive too.

That doesn't make it an untrue statement.

Do you think the statement is untrue? If so, I would focus on those facts instead of how one feels about said facts.

 

BUT- I only cautioned to try to not take offense where none was intended: the statement was directed towards the establishment, as a heads-up to be on the alert for individuals [like the OP] who have fallen prey to that establishment. and while I am sure that there are some drug reps out there, the reality is that the establishment that trains drug reps IS corrupt and there ARE drug reps out there who are crooks.

There's a reason that stereotypes come into play.

 

in the meantime, it's nice to remember that All Generalizations are False. :)

[Jennifer in NH]

the gardisil vaccine? when we lived in florida, we had a wonderful large-homeschool family dad as our family doctor and he advised against it for now.

 

now that we've moved to pa, our doctor (who has been my in-laws doctor for years, but i don't know him at all) strongly recommends it....because his sister died of cervical cancer.

 

then i just watched this:

 

and man, i really don't want my girls to get this vaccine.

 

do i stand up to the current doc? find a different one? relax and just let them get the shot?

 

my 3 girls are 18, almost 17 and almost 13.

 

we vaccinate for most everything... My daughter will not have this vaccine while she is in our care. When she is an adult and living elsewhere with her own insurance...she may do what she wants.

[Nakia]

I honestly do not know if I will have my daughters vaccinated with Gardisil. As a nurse, who formerly worked on a women's oncology unit, I have watched many very young and healthy women die of cervical cancer. If even one of those women could have been saved by a vaccine, it would have been worth it. Then I read these stories of these beautiful healthy teenage girls who become paralyzed within days/weeks of receiving the vaccine. I just don't know...

 

Thankfully, I have years to pray, think, and research before deciding.

[Alice]

 

I have to disagree that the system training professionals is NOT "corrupt" --The NEA has some corrupt practices. Unions have some corrupt practices. Attorneys. Doctors. Even homeschool groups can be corrupt. The bigger a system is, the more susceptible it is to corruption. Especially when you get into politics, education, and healthcare. Manymanymany greedy grubbing palms are looking at the cost benefit analysis of a course of action or a way to up the profit.

 

As I mentioned, even tho I am sure that several individuals come out of their training w/ a great ability to consider things w/o being biased by propaganda, the *establishment* itself is already full of corruption.

 

Doctors are trained by a corrupt establishment funded by people who make vaccines.

 

I agree that the statement is offensive.

The fact it occurs is offensive too.

That doesn't make it an untrue statement.

Do you think the statement is untrue? If so, I would focus on those facts instead of how one feels about said facts.

 

 

 

While I think that the system of medical training is deeply flawed in many ways, I don't think the system as a whole is corrupt. It may be semantics to a degree but it sounds like you and others would see the medical "establishment" or system as grossly corrupt and most doctors as being part of it with a few good doctors able to get through. I would see it more as a system that produces some doctors that are corrupt, some who are bad and most who are good and that truly desire to care for people. Probably some of each person's perspective is going to be what doctors or other healthcare providers with who they have come in contact.

 

Med schools themselves are all different and have likely changed in the 12 years since I left. Where I went they were very strict about teaching us only generic names of drugs when we took pharmacology. They were very strict about no reps doing student lectures. And perhaps in other arenas, I just only knew from a student perspective. Where I went to residency was similar. We were not allowed to have "drug lunches". At my office we do accept samples of meds but we don't have any sponsored lunches or other benefits. I don't think we are necessarily the exception to the rule.

 

Anyway, I don't want to hijack the original thread entirely. I didn't mean for this to become so much about me but I also didn't want to seem to be walking away from your comments and ignoring the discussion.

 

Thanks for keeping the tone respectful.

[Peek a Boo]

Thanks for keeping the tone respectful.

 

ditto :)

 

and thanks for offering some info :D

[ereks mom]

My understanding is that she is not at risk as long as she is not sexually active, which she is not.

[Lisa in Jax]

My fifteen-year-old hasn't had it, and won't, unless she reads about it, weighs the risks/benefits, and decides to talk to dh and me about it. IMHO, there's not enough data about its efficacy.

 

Lisa

[Denise in Florida]

No, we vaccinate for some things, but we will not do this one until there is more information and a longer track record.

 

My oldest dd wrote a research paper on the gardisil vaccine for her community college comp II class. She was quite soundly in the 'no' category after that. :)

 

I have been concerned about the rush to make it mandatory (and at such young ages). Why the hurry? It just doesn't seem like good science to me.

[phathui5]

It only prevents those cervical cancers that come from STD's and multiple sexual partners.

 

 

While we've chosen against Gardasil as well, I need to point out that it only takes one partner to transmit an STD, not multiple ones. And not all sexual activity is entered into willingly.

[Lizzie in Ma]

I hope to write later about why, I am in haste this morning but I did my research on this vaccine and it makes me sick to my stomach they way they are relentlessly marketing it.

[Mad Jenny Flint]

It's a personal decision. I don't tend to buy into too much hype, though, and it was the right decision for us, imo. I would never have done it if I felt that it was forced.

[Amy in NY]

Others have stated valid reasons as to why not: not all cervical CA is caused by HPV, regular paps catch HPV infection, and it is a slow growing cancer that is in effect 100% curable. I would like to add that HPV infection normally clears the body within 3 years without any problems (I think the only problem there is that for 3 years the infected person is a carrier.) Also, someone mentioned giving out condoms in lieu of the vaccine. This is great in concept except that the virus can still be passed on with condom use. This happened to a close friend's daughter.

 

I wanted to comment after reading the blog link and case history about the girl who developed juvenile ALS (Lou Gherig's disease.) Her case history is remarkable for previous auto-immune illness, plus ADD and speech/developmental delays. She has a history of neurological problems. While it will be hard to say that the gardisil vaccine definitely caused her ALS and ultimately her death, I think that it looks very suspicious. I urge anyone who is considering this vaccine to look at your child's history and family history for auto-immune diseases and neurological problems before consenting to this vaccine...or any other vaccine, for that matter. I don't think that VAERS is accurate nor do I trust the studies that come out about vaccine safety. There are too many $$ at stake as well as the conscience of those who have been taught that they are ok and necessary for our children.

 

Edited to add the following: I realized this after the fact that this post might be construed as directed toward Mad Jenny Flint. I merely ended up below her post. I think she is quite brave to be the sole dissenter thus far.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Amy in NY

[KristenS]

I have to agree with the poster who pointed out that not all s*xual activity is consensual.

 

I am also very glad that my daughter is still very young and we have lots of time to learn more before we have to consider a decision.

 

So many parenting choices are scary these days! It often feels like you can't win no matter what you choose.

[Reya]

I'd look into what conditions the girls are actually diagnosed with first. The vast majority of adverse incident reports on ALL vaccines are bogus. People blame a seizure on the vaccine, ignoring the concussion their kid got 15 minutes before, etc. (Yes, many are that bizarre.) If the affects really are from the vaccine, then no. If they aren't, then yes. I wouldn't give a news report any credence.

 

Why yes? If for no other reason than because my daughter's life should not be dependent upon the honesty and faithfulness of her husband, and cancer risk adds a whole new level of horror to rape.

[Evergreen State Sue]

I can't remember now, maybe 23? I only mention this after reading the post and seeing some people say they will let their dd make the decision as an adult or when they are married.

 

My dd's doctor told her about it just before she turned 11. I was upset because I hadn't told my dd all the facts of life yet and she got the impression from the doctor that if she didn't get the vaccine, there would be a chance she couldn't get pregnant. At this age, my dd is looking forward to being a mommy.

 

I am so glad to read all the posts to hear the facts from the doctor that posted here and the moms who have done their research. I plan to have my dd wait. She has time to do some research on this yet.

 

Thanks again for this thread.

[Reya]

It's not really a vaccine for cervical cancer.

It's a vaccine for SOME forms of HPV that are linked to cervical cancer.

I will not be at all surprised in the future when we find out the vaccine causes cancer - whether cervical or other.

 

HPV doesn't always cause cancer.

And the shot is only for a few strains of HPV anyway.

 

The risk of side effects from the shot itself far outweighs any benefit IMO.

I'd rather hand them a condom.

 

What if they are raped?

 

What if their husbands aren't honest about their sexual pasts?

 

What if their husbands cheat on them?

 

I would be extremely interest to know, too, what mechanism a vaccine could have in causing cancer!

[K-FL]

I just had my dd's shots updated & refused this one.

[Reya]

Doctors are trained by a corrupt establishment funded by people who make vaccines.

 

 

Where are these pharm-company-funded med schools? Just in case one of my kids want to become a doctor. 'Cuz last time I checked, med school was obscenely expensive.

 

Or maybe they'll pay for their malpractice insurance and make being a family practitioner actually worth it again! Or maybe they'll pay for their kids' college! Where can we sign up?

 

If doctors can't get real kickbacks, well, what else does "funded" mean and where are these mysterious funds going? Even a lunch, a bag of cheap pens, and some free samples sounds awfully innocuous to me--and those are the doctors *on the edge*, so to speak.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Reya

[Reya]

I honestly do not know if I will have my daughters vaccinated with Gardisil. As a nurse, who formerly worked on a women's oncology unit, I have watched many very young and healthy women die of cervical cancer. If even one of those women could have been saved by a vaccine, it would have been worth it. Then I read these stories of these beautiful healthy teenage girls who become paralyzed within days/weeks of receiving the vaccine. I just don't know...

 

Thankfully, I have years to pray, think, and research before deciding.

 

Dozens have died in car crashes shortly after receiving the vaccine, too. Doesn't mean it causes car crashes!

[LilyK]

I would be extremely interest to know, too, what mechanism a vaccine could have in causing cancer!

 

 

Local inflammation caused by the vaccine can indeed lead to the development of pre-cancerous cells. These cells are usually disposed of by healthy immune systems. If the immune system is compromised.... who knows. There are no known cases, to my knowledge, of Gardasil causing such a reaction. The overall concern, Reya, seems to be that this is a very new vaccine. We just do no know what the longterm implications could be. There seems to be an understandably negative reaction to the magnitude of the "push" by doctors and pharmaceutical companies (Merck) to get little girls vaccinated. It seems to be inappropriate considering the existing methods for preventing cervical cancer cannot be abandoned simply by getting this vaccine. If this were a cure for breast cancer, I could certainly understand the huge campaign to get vaccinated.

[Peek a Boo]

I need to point out that it only takes one partner to transmit an STD, not multiple ones.

 

SOMEone had to have "multiple partners" to transmit an STD. ;)

[Peek a Boo]

Where are these pharm-company-funded med schools? Just in case one of my kids want to become a doctor. 'Cuz last time I checked, med school was obscenely expensive.

 

Or maybe they'll pay for their malpractice insurance and make being a family practitioner actually worth it again! Or maybe they'll pay for their kids' college! Where can we sign up?

 

If doctors can't get real kickbacks, well, what else does "funded" mean and where are these mysterious funds going? Even a lunch, a bag of cheap pens, and some free samples sounds awfully innocuous to me--and those are the doctors *on the edge*, so to speak.

 

Reya, I would suggest you do some unbiased research into the medical field. I have NOT personally done the extent of research that could answer in detail what your question involves, but there are plenty of people way smarter than i who have spent decades studying the medical industry.

 

For starters, read through the comments in this thread, and then seek to factually prove each one right or wrong. If you think it only entails a few freebies here and there you need to do more research.

 

i would next suggest doing a study on how corruption works in every industry --it's deep, life-changing, and many times downright ingenious in its simplicity.

[Peek a Boo]

Dozens have died in car crashes shortly after receiving the vaccine, too. Doesn't mean it causes car crashes!

um, that's why she mentioned about reading specific cases --not jumping to conclusions. sheesh.

 

You mentioned that historians who haven't done their research can be easily noted and should be chastised.

 

Do your research.

[LilyK]

Reya, I would suggest you do some research into the medical field.

 

 

Here is a good starting point.

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0040150

 

It directly addresses those innocuous little pens and notepads.

[Nakia]

Dozens have died in car crashes shortly after receiving the vaccine, too. Doesn't mean it causes car crashes!

 

I don't understand what that has to do with my post at all.

[Peek a Boo]

I don't understand what that has to do with my post at all.

 

{{I think she was trying to say you have no idea what you are talking about, but that's just a guess ;) }}

[Perry]

Well, when the doctors only know how to treat a set of symptoms with a pharmaceutical drug, and have no idea how to find the cause or work towards a genuine cure, one has to wonder what exactly they are learning in med school. Nutrition is a 3 credit class you can take in a junior college. I think the pharmaceutical industry finances the program of study - and they sure as heck finance the practice with their ink pens, note pads, vacations, and propagandic lies.

 

Not all doctors of course. I found one who could heal. He was a naturapath.

 

I don't understand this reasoning. Doctors know and understand the causes of disease. They counsel people ALL THE TIME on prevention and treating underlying causes of illness. But people don't want to hear that they need to quit smoking, eat better, lose weight, exercise, wear seat belts, use helmets. There is no great mystery about the cause of most illnesses. I assure you doctors would be thrilled if people started taking care of themselves. Most people know how to do that and many choose not to. There isn't much doctors can do about that.

[Blessedfamily]

Where are these pharm-company-funded med schools? Just in case one of my kids want to become a doctor. 'Cuz last time I checked, med school was obscenely expensive.

 

Or maybe they'll pay for their malpractice insurance and make being a family practitioner actually worth it again! Or maybe they'll pay for their kids' college! Where can we sign up?

 

If doctors can't get real kickbacks, well, what else does "funded" mean and where are these mysterious funds going? Even a lunch, a bag of cheap pens, and some free samples sounds awfully innocuous to me--and those are the doctors *on the edge*, so to speak.

 

 

 

 

http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i46/46a02201.htm

 

 

 

Every day, in teaching hospitals across the country, doctors and residents can enjoy lunches paid for by pharmaceutical companies. Drug-company representatives can roam the halls, peddling their wares and offering doctors free samples and office supplies bearing company logos. Meanwhile, researchers plug away in their laboratories, working on new therapies and procedures, trying not to let the fact that a company is paying for the research influence their findings.

 

The growing entanglement between industry and academe has provoked an outpouring of concern about conflicts of interest that could endanger the lives of patients and shake public confidence in medical research. Some clinical researchers, on the other hand, worry that the existing restrictions are too limiting and interfere with their work.

 

 

Although the issue has flared recently at other institutions, including Harvard University and the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities, perhaps nowhere has the debate been more polarized than at the University of California at San Francisco, which boasts some of the strictest controls of any medical school -- along with some of the most extensive ties to pharmaceutical and biotechnology companies.

...........

 

 

 

http://www.mcw.edu/GME/IP/GiftsByPharaandMedCompanies.htm

 

 

 

Medical College of Wisconsin Affiliated Hospitals, Inc.

 

GIFTS BY PHARMACEUTICAL AND MEDICAL EQUIPMENT COMPANIES

 

 

 

1. The ACGME, AMA and ACCME have detailed guidelines on the subject and should be consulted.

 

 

 

2. All residents/fellows are provided information on ethics and ethical relationships with drug and medical equipment manufacturing companies during orientation and throughout training.

 

 

3. The residency programs may utilize unrestricted funding from the pharmaceutical and equipment manufacturing companies for educational programs.

.........

[Peek a Boo]

I don't understand this reasoning. Doctors know and understand the causes of disease. They counsel people ALL THE TIME on prevention and treating underlying causes of illness. But people don't want to hear that they need to quit smoking, eat better, lose weight, exercise, wear seat belts, use helmets. There is no great mystery about the cause of most illnesses. I assure you doctors would be thrilled if people started taking care of themselves. Most people know how to do that and many choose not to. There isn't much doctors can do about that.

 

yeahhh... but there's plenty of doctors who are content doling out prescriptions like some teachers dole out worksheets. Unfortunately we find manymanymany cases of over-prescribed medicines or missed problems.

 

backto All Generalizations Are False ;)

[Nakia]

{{I think she was trying to say you have no idea what you are talking about, but that's just a guess ;) }}

 

Well, good grief.

 

To Reya, I did not mean to imply that all of the girls that received Gardisil will have neurological problems or that all neurological problems in vaccinated teenage girls are caused by Gardisil. But the connection seems to have validity in some cases. I guess you think that connection is as ridiculous as the fact that some vaccinated teens die in car crashes.

 

As my post stated, I am still very much in the thinking, praying, researching stage when it comes to the vaccine.

[CAMom]

I don't understand this reasoning. Doctors know and understand the causes of disease. They counsel people ALL THE TIME on prevention and treating underlying causes of illness. But people don't want to hear that they need to quit smoking, eat better, lose weight, exercise, wear seat belts, use helmets. There is no great mystery about the cause of most illnesses. I assure you doctors would be thrilled if people started taking care of themselves. Most people know how to do that and many choose not to. There isn't much doctors can do about that.

 

Hmmm.....because I was denied care for my children by a pediatrician. He would not take us as patients because (and I quote directly), "I am not comfortable with your preventative health care philosophy.":confused:

 

Fortunately, I found a doctor who does not necessarily agree with all of my choices (vaccine related, specifically) but always tells me, "You're the mom. We'll do what you're comfortable with!"

 

Oh, BTW, my dd is almost 13 and will not be getting this vaccine.

[lionfamily1999]

yeahhh... but there's plenty of doctors who are content doling out prescriptions like some teachers dole out worksheets. Unfortunately we find manymanymany cases of over-prescribed medicines or missed problems.

 

backto All Generalizations Are False ;)

What really ticks me off is when there is a good doctor, they get run out of town (at least here). Some people, possibly most people that go to the doctor's, do not want to hear, what you have is a virus, the best thing you can do is let it run its course, and let your body learn to fight it. They don't want the doctor's perscription to be, get off your fat butt and move around.

 

I LOVED the doctor we had a few years ago, for all these reasons. He would not recommend something unless it was necessary and refused to just hand out perscriptions. IOW, when it comes time to renew anti-depressants or diabetes drugs or other drugs of that type, he required an appointment. So many people got their panties in a wad, because he ordered new tests! It was a real loss when he was forced to leave. We followed while we could, but a two hour commute to the doc was too much for me, esp. with a sick child.

 

IOW, it's as much the lazy patients' faults as it is the establishment.

[Kelli in TN]

We have opted to allow our daughters to pursue this vaccine for themselves when they reach adulthood. I am not comfortable with the amount of testing that was done before pushing it on the public and therefore I am not comfortable with having it given to my daughters when they are young and not sexually active. When they are adults they can weigh the risks/benefits for themselves in light of their own decisions about their lifestyle.