than; then; and; an; advise; advice

[katemary63]

Now, I would like to know how you pronounce "Dawn" differently than "Don." Where I come from, they are the same, so if I am wrong, please help me with that. When I was a kid, my pastor made fun of me for that thing exactly and I never did get it. LOL I pronounce them both "Don."

 

 

Here's something I found about regional differences. It explains some of the Don/Dawn differences, although I tend to hear them the same way.

 

http://www.pbs.org/speak/ahead/change/changin/summary/

 

Great article! Thanks. Very, very interesting. Although the fact that some people think that Ann and Ian SOUND the same is just baffling to me!

[Crissy]

I am no grammar queen, to be sure, but I see this in professional emails regularly and it really bothers me:

 

Our meeting is scheduled for 2:00. You will be met in the lobby by Josh, Glenn, or myself.

 

If you have any other questions, please contact Sally or myself.

 

Thank you for the invitation. Those attending will include James, Sue, Julie and myself.

 

:smash:

[WTMindy]

:lol::lol::lol: That is SO funny! Well, here goes. Where I come from ( not saying it's right or wrong!) we say Don with a short o like on, John and baton with the same vowel sound as bother, cot and father. Dawn rhymes with lawn or fawn or pawn with the same vowel sound as saw, all or caught.

 

Well, as I sit here at my desk, there is a copy of Merriam-Webster's Rhyming Dictionary. I opened it up to -ON. There are several possible ways that -ON can be pronounced. They list Don under pronunciation #1 ALONG WITH dawn, both with the vowel sound in father, cot or bother. Under pronunciation #3, they list dawn, (but not Don) having the vowel sound in all or saw or caught.

 

So, apparently, according to Webster, you can pronounce Don like Dawn IF you say them both like father. But you can NOT pronounce Don like Dawn if you say Dawn with the vowel sound of caught or all! Follow me??:lol::lol:

 

This is funny and now I am confused. :D

 

LOL. I would pronounce Don, dawn, John, Jon, fawn, lawn, saw, all, caught with the same basic vowel sound. :-) I guess that must be my pen/pin issue. :-)

[ElizabethB]

A couple of years ago, one of the big churches here had a pre-Easter ad on the television. The voice-over said, "Lint is not just something you pick off your sweater. It's an important time in the church year."

 

I thought it was hilarious, but when I told others about it, I received blank looks in return.

 

I would have been there laughing hysterically with you. In fact, if I was drinking water, I would have snorted it right out of my nose!

[ElizabethB]

I love the "ing" into "een" thing. That is something I have never noticed or heard before - ever. I guess it's only "wrong" if you spell it wrong! I do wonder how people teach phonics with such heavy accents. There are a few words I had to teach my daughter that sounded out differently then the way WE say them JUST because of our regional pronunciation - but not very many. 2 or 3??

 

I am dying to know how the PS teachers do it? I've never been in a primary classroom here and really, I'm so curious. For instance, very few vowels or vowel/ consonant combinations are pronounced the way....say...abeka clue words are used.

 

EX:

 

long i in bake, here they say "bike"

short e in pen, here they say "pin"

ay in pray, here they say something close to "pry" or even "prah"

er in verse, here they say "varse"

ir in Bird, here they say "Bard"

ur in nurse, here they say "narse"

oi in oil, here they say "awl"

short i in still, here they say steel. "Pill" would be "peel"

short o in on , here they say awn, mom is "mawm"

 

There is little or no distinction between the sounds of many words that are not traditionally considered homophones. (bake/ bike, still/ steel, pill/ peel, pray/pry, war/ wire/ were, oil/ awl, and of course pin/ pen)

The fact is, that if a teacher here spoke in her classroom the way the Abeka phonics clue words are used, the class would not understand her. So, would she just say:

"ar in varse" when she was reading "er in verse" etc.?

And would the teacher who says "runneen" say

"een" in "runneen" when they were reading "ing in running"?

I can see bringing up regional differences if there were just a FEW but here, it is ALL different. How do you explain it to the kids?

 

 

 

Well, I don't know how they do it, but I just teach the rules I know and teach things they way I pronounce them and tell them that for some words they may pronounce them slightly differently, as long as they're getting the general phonics and the idea to sound things out from left to right, it's all good, they "tweak" the sounds slightly and seem to have no problems with that.

 

I personally think that ag and eg don't sound like they should, I wait until later in my phonics lessons to teach them and just explain that g sometimes slightly modifies the sound of the vowel like r and l. When I say egg, it sounds like a long a!

 

There was an interesting post about this on the RRF UK forums, the UK phonics programs are slightly different that ours because of -r related differences in word pronunciation, mainly, (and a few other sounds, but mainly -r sounds) and rural areas of England and places like Wales and Scotland have their own variations that change slightly how they teach phonics.

[Katiebug_1976]

It's not just on this site, though. My husband is taking online college courses and to earn "attendance points" you have to post so many times per week. You should see all the grammatical errors that are posted! My 12 yo dd made the comment "If this is what it's like in college, then I'm ready now!" She couldn't believe that these were "college students" and they were making so many obvious mistakes.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Pam, where DID you grow up? You are channeling my great-g'ma. She died when I was 17. She was a mountain hillbilly girl through and through, so although I was born and raised in Ft. Lauderdale, I'm fluent in hillbilly speak. You put a lump in my throat with the above post.

 

What about "terreckly?" As in, "I'm aimin' to head up yonder terreckly..."

 

Barb

 

Aww! Yes, it's mountain hillbilly-speak. All this is from East TN/SW VA.

 

And the correct word there is "derreckly" for "directly," which of course (for anyone else reading this post, lol) stands for "pretty soon." You misheard the initial plosive sound, I think. Or rather, that's how we always said it. :-)

[Marylou]

And yes, I also see it a lot on homeschooling boards.

 

 

 

I see it alot, to!

 

Two more I see all the time.

[Marylou]

Since my name is "Donna" and because I grew up in New England with a strong Boston accent, I have personal experience with the "don" thingy. I always pronounced my name "Dawn-a". Then I went to college in central PA, and eventually married a guy from Indiana whose name is "John". (We were married four years before he told me (very gently) I said his name "wrong"!) I just call him "Hon" now, no more "Jawn".

 

I love hearing other accents! My Boston accent is long gawn, but I can switch back in a nanosecond if I'm speaking fast or just trying to be the old me!

Edited March 9, 2009 by dmmosher

[elegantlion]

LOL. I would pronounce Don, dawn, John, Jon, fawn, lawn, saw, all, caught with the same basic vowel sound. :-) I guess that must be my pen/pin issue. :-)

 

 

 

I am with you Mindy, Maybe it is a West coast thing but there is no difference in that vowel sound to me.

 

I grew up in the midwest and I do the same thing.

[Audrey]

Another common error is loose vs. lose. I see the same error at my job too.

 

 

That drives me nuts. I also hate to see misuse of it's vs. its, who vs. whom, and who's vs. whose.

 

However, I can't be too picky about grammar and typos on message boards. I often type ahead of myself and will leave letters out of words, or leave entire words out of sentences.

 

Thankfully, this board allows edits, but I don't always have time to correct myself.

[Paz]

I just have to post this. We are from an area near Pittsburgh. When ds was there recently he brought home Steeler magnets that say "We got 6, how many yinz got?" Using yinz for you plural is so western PA!

[Mamasteff]

"Baited breath" (in place of the correct "bated breath") is one. Or you probably meant something like "voila!" or something.

 

Oh my word. When I see a blog post that says, "And, Wah-lah!" it just makes me cringe. I know it sounds petty. But please. If you are going to use it, use it correctly!!!

 

(Also, not as well known and I have seen it multiple times recently - you don't POUR over a book, unless you want to ruin it. You PORE over a book... )

[Guest Katia]

I see it alot, to!

 

Two more I see all the time.

 

Excuse me, but this is not an error. There is no word "alot" in the English language.

[Jana]

No offense, but I simply don't understand being put off by the misuse of words--or punctuation for that matter--on a message board.

 

I have three boys, two of which are speaking to me right now while I'm trying to post this message. How easy would it be for me to mistakenly type "whose" in place of "who's" or some similar mistake.

 

I am all for clarity and being precise, but I often find people use grammar as a sword or a means by which to feel superior.

 

Not trying to offend. Just my point of view.

[Barb_]

Aww! Yes, it's mountain hillbilly-speak. All this is from East TN/SW VA.

 

And the correct word there is "derreckly" for "directly," which of course (for anyone else reading this post, lol) stands for "pretty soon." You misheard the initial plosive sound, I think. Or rather, that's how we always said it. :-)

 

Maybe it's because she didn't have any teeth :lol:

 

My family is from Eastern TN/Western NC. Waaay back in the hills.

 

Barb

[Barb_]

No offense, but I simply don't understand being put off by the misuse of words--or punctuation for that matter--on a message board.

 

I have three boys, two of which are speaking to me right now while I'm trying to post this message. How easy would it be for me to mistakenly type "whose" in place of "who's" or some similar mistake.

 

I am all for clarity and being precise, but I often find people use grammar as a sword or a means by which to feel superior.

 

Not trying to offend. Just my point of view.

 

Eh, don't take it personally. We're all human and we all make those types of mistakes. This comes up every so often on this board because it seems the people here are some of the few that even care that voila is never, ever, ever spelled wa-la! For that matter, capital letters aren't an endangered species. Just a little harmless preaching to the choir :D

[chiguirre]

I just have to post this. We are from an area near Pittsburgh. When ds was there recently he brought home Steeler magnets that say "We got 6, how many yinz got?" Using yinz for you plural is so western PA!

 

And of course, there's the construction: That needs washed. I didn't know this was wrong until AP English 12 (no joke!) Pittsburgh has quite a distinct regional accent and vocabulary that sticks like glue. I still say yinz even though it's been more than 20 years since I left the burgh. Now I need to go redd up!

[Marylou]

Excuse me, but this is not an error. There is no word "alot" in the English language.

 

 

These are the two I see a lot: to instead of too, alot instead of a lot.

 

Katia, I was pointing out that you wrote it correctly :)

Edited March 9, 2009 by dmmosher

[Jana]

Eh, don't take it personally. We're all human and we all make those types of mistakes. This comes up every so often on this board because it seems the people here are some of the few that even care that voila is never, ever, ever spelled wa-la! For that matter, capital letters aren't an endangered species. Just a little harmless preaching to the choir :D

 

 

I don't take it personally. What makes me cringe isn't poor grammar, but anyone who derives a (false) sense of superiority from someone else's grammatical error.

 

These posts aren't preaching to the choir, they are preaching a kind of grammatical orthodoxy that I find pointless.

 

How can a person's (other than your student's) English usage possibly have any real effect on your life? I simply don't get it. If you need "viola" spelled and used correctly, then by all means, make sure you and your students master its usage.

 

Complaining about others' perceived intellectual shortcomings is a thin smoke screen for tooting your own horn.

 

That I find it cringe worthy.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I don't take it personally. What makes me cringe isn't poor grammar, but anyone who derives a (false) sense of superiority from someone else's grammatical error.

 

These posts aren't preaching to the choir, they are preaching a kind of grammatical orthodoxy that I find pointless.

 

How can a person's (other than your student's) English usage possibly have any real effect on your life? I simply don't get it. If you need "viola" spelled and used correctly, then by all means, make sure you and your students master its usage.

 

Complaining about others' perceived intellectual shortcomings is a thin smoke screen for tooting your own horn.

 

That I find it cringe worthy.

 

Sorry. My posts were trying to point out that we ALL have points that are in error and points that are cringe-worthy for us. And that even at this point in my life (I'm 43), I still make usage errors that make others giggle. And that's fine.

 

It's all good. And if somebody learns something -- like I did in speech class when I found out that "pen" and "pin" had two different sounds and I could not hear it to save my life -- then that's good, too. No harm in knowing.

 

And if you want to know how laughable it is that I would possibly think I'm superior, you just sit in on a phone call of me to my mama sometime. Yep. That would disabuse anyone of that notion.

[Laura Corin]

When I taught in my little one-room school, I had several students who couldn't hear the difference between, say, "pin" and "pen." Not exactly the same as being dyslexic, but still...spelling class often involved big discussions and sometimes just the reminder when to use which word regardless of how the dc pronounced it.

 

But I say 'pour', 'poor' and 'paw' the same and I manage to spell them all correctly.

 

Laura

[Punkinelly]

LOL. I would pronounce Don, dawn, John, Jon, fawn, lawn, saw, all, caught with the same basic vowel sound. :-) I guess that must be my pen/pin issue. :-)

 

Me, too. LOL

[Marylou]

I agree with Jana that we can feel superior when we know we are using correct grammar. It is something many of us need to keep in check.

 

I do see a difference between mentioning common usage mistakes we all make at times, and pointing mistakes out to others who may have made those mistakes. I don't correct other people (unless they are my students, and not in front of others!)

 

As much as I love to learn about grammar and prefer to use words correctly, I would rather be a gracious, kind woman who uses poor grammar, than an ungracious and unkind woman who has impeccable grammar!

[Punkinelly]

I agree with Jana that we can feel superior when we know we are using correct grammar. It is something many of us need to keep in check.

 

I do see a difference between mentioning common usage mistakes we all make at times, and pointing mistakes out to others who may have made those mistakes. I don't correct other people (unless they are my students, and not in front of others!)

 

As much as I love to learn about grammar and prefer to use words correctly, I would rather be a gracious, kind woman who uses poor grammar, than an ungracious and unkind woman who has impeccable grammar!

 

Right, but I think all this thread is is a way to vent and even to ask questions. No one is pointing out anything personally.

 

I have learned a few things on here that I think will be useful to me.

 

Also, speaking well (and correctly) *is* important. Just see who they pick for a job. It is likely the well-spoken one. First impressions are very important in many ways.

[Laura Corin]

Like the time he asked for a pair of A-DI-das tennis shoes. We still tease him.

 

Laura

[Barb_]

I don't take it personally. What makes me cringe isn't poor grammar, but anyone who derives a (false) sense of superiority from someone else's grammatical error.

 

These posts aren't preaching to the choir, they are preaching a kind of grammatical orthodoxy that I find pointless.

 

How can a person's (other than your student's) English usage possibly have any real effect on your life? I simply don't get it. If you need "viola" spelled and used correctly, then by all means, make sure you and your students master its usage.

 

Complaining about others' perceived intellectual shortcomings is a thin smoke screen for tooting your own horn.

 

That I find it cringe worthy.

 

 

:glare: ...

 

:chillpill:

 

It's pretty obvious we are making fun of ourselves in the process. Did you wake up and forget to put on your sense of humor today?

[secular_mom]

I don't take it personally. What makes me cringe isn't poor grammar, but anyone who derives a (false) sense of superiority from someone else's grammatical error.

 

These posts aren't preaching to the choir, they are preaching a kind of grammatical orthodoxy that I find pointless.

 

Complaining about others' perceived intellectual shortcomings is a thin smoke screen for tooting your own horn.

 

That I find it cringe worthy.

 

I had tried to post a reply to your previous response in this thread, but then I received the 'server busy' message.

Anyway, what I was going to say was that I didn't take offense to your previous reply, and that I myself make MANY grammatical mistakes. I don't always use capitals and I use slang when typing, just as I do in real life.

 

I was genuinely curious about the origins/reasons for the typos. We can all perceive others to be 'tooting their own horns', whether that is a person who is asking questions about grammatical errors or someone who points out the 'moral flaws' of others.

[Jana]

I had tried to post a reply to your previous response in this thread, but then I received the 'server busy' message.

Anyway, what I was going to say was that I didn't take offense to your previous reply, and that I myself make MANY grammatical mistakes. I don't always use capitals and I use slang when typing, just as I do in real life.

 

I was genuinely curious about the origins/reasons for the typos. We can all perceive others to be 'tooting their own horns', whether that is a person who is asking questions about grammatical errors or someone who points out the 'moral flaws' of others.

 

Moral flaws? You overstated my point.

 

Your initial post was genuinely curious and without condemnation. But these discussions often (and they have in this thread) spiral into "I just can't stand it when people don't know how to use commas correctly!" It is this sentiment to which my comments are directed and not your (or anyone else's) earnest inquiry.

[katemary63]

Awww, come on. It was mentioned several times that this was all in good fun and that several on here make many of the "mistakes" that have been high lighted. I also said that I was pointing out DIFFERENCES not WRONGS. I have really enjoyed this thread. I have heard some usages and pronunciations ( both of which I find fascinating) that I have NEVER heard before, probably because I have not traveled to that region of the country. Yinz?? Never heard of it. How do you SAY it??

Anyway, I have moved from SE Wisconsin, where I grew up ALL my life, to central Arkansas. It has been an amazing shift in culture for me in many ways, one of which is language. But I LOVE it here. I do not feel superior. I like it here BETTER then WI. I really think some of the misunderstandings that arise from different regional pronunciations are hilarious. But funny doesn't mean, "Gosh, it's funny how stupid you are."

It's more, "Wow, isn't that funny how we use the same language so differently?"

I had a great conversation with a very close friend. We were in a huge covered arena at a horse show. It was stifling hot and I made a comment about how I felt like I was baking. My dear friend said, "That's probably because it's steel." I looked up and thought, well, it is a steel building. The sun is heating up that metal and it is radiating down on us big time. I guess it probably IS hotter in this steel building then in another kind of building. I thought all this to myself just before she added, "There's just no breeze at all!" She actually said "still". I heard "steel". Now THAT'S a funny story and she laughed as hard as I did.

I have had a great time learning the lingo here in AR. I love the word Y'all and use it all the time. I now say "trash" instead of "garbage" and "cut the grass" instead of "mow the lawn", "had a wreck" instead of "was in a car accident" and sometimes even "make a picture" instead of "take a picture". I'm trying to fit in!

The first time I went to our local PDQ, the clerk asked me, "Do you want a sack with that?" What??? I had no idea what she was talking about! That time, I gave HER the blank stare. She sure must have thought I was dense. You see, to me, "a sack" is something you do to a quarterback. I KNOW the work sack, like gunny sack. But I had never used it in an everyday way to mean "bag". Now I do!

No offence intended and no superiority felt.

[Mabelen]

I can understand the horrible lisping Spanish that they speak in Spain and the Spanish from every other country except Cuba--they speak version of Spanish with the last part of every word chopped off. I actually find Italian easier to understand than Cuban, and I know maybe 20 Italian words (it's very similar to Spanish, however.)

 

I was really enjoying this thread until I came across the above sentence. I am sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, but you just mentioned one of my pet peeves.

 

I understand that you may find the Spanish spoken in Spain horrible, but please do not call it lisping. Please, don't, unless you are willing to call American English lisping too!

 

Number one, a lisp is the inability to pronounce the sound "s". Spaniards can and do pronounce the s sound. It is even in their country and language name "España, español". Any Spaniard who speaks standard European Spanish, excluding certain regional varieties and those with a true lisp, will pronounce those words with an s sound! What we do have is a /θ/ phoneme (corresponding to the syllables ce,ci, za, zo, zu), which is missing from Latin American Spanish (and some regional varieties in Spain itself). This phoneme is also found in English, so if you call Spanish from Spain lisping because of this phoneme, you should also be willing to call English lisping and thus equally horrible...

[ElizabethB]

I was really enjoying this thread until I came across the above sentence. I am sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, but you just mentioned one of my pet peeves.

 

I understand that you may find the Spanish spoken in Spain horrible, but please do not call it lisping. Please, don't, unless you are willing to call American English lisping too!

 

Number one, a lisp is the inability to pronounce the sound "s". Spaniards can and do pronounce the s sound. It is even in their country and language name "España, español". Any Spaniard who speaks standard European Spanish, excluding certain regional varieties and those with a true lisp, will pronounce those words with an s sound! What we do have is a /θ/ phoneme (corresponding to the syllables ce,ci, za, zo, zu), which is missing from Latin American Spanish (and some regional varieties in Spain itself). This phoneme is also found in English, so if you call Spanish from Spain lisping because of this phoneme, you should also be willing to call English lisping and thus equally horrible...

 

I did not know that! I had heard that the difference in pronunciation was because one of the Spanish kings in the past lisped.

 

What you said makes linguistic sense, however.

 

English is a horrible language to learn, I'm glad I learned it first and didn't have to learn it as a 2nd language! Spanish is the easiest of all the languages I've learned.

[Mabelen]

I did not know that! I had heard that the difference in pronunciation was because one of the Spanish kings in the past lisped.

 

What you said makes linguistic sense, however.

 

English is a horrible language to learn, I'm glad I learned it first and didn't have to learn it as a 2nd language! Spanish is the easiest of all the languages I've learned.

 

Ah, yes! The lisping Spanish king myth... I really would like to know how this myth originated, because it could not be further from the truth. The truth is that the /θ/ phoneme (corresponding to the syllables ce,ci, za, zo, zu) found in European Spanish has a simple linguistic explanation that goes back to original Latin pronunciation.

 

English sure does present some difficult issues as a foreign language; the disconnect between spelling and pronunciation being one of them, but Spanish has its own issues too, just like any other language!

 

I am curious, what are the languages you have learned?

 

For me, Italian was by far the easiest. As far as most difficult, I think Arabic and Tamil get a tie, which explains why I can't really speak either!

[ElizabethB]

 

I am curious, what are the languages you have learned?

 

For me, Italian was by far the easiest. As far as most difficult, I think Arabic and Tamil get a tie, which explains why I can't really speak either!

 

3 years of Spanish, 2 years of German, 1 semester of Russian.

 

I lived in Germany for 4 years, while we lived there I visited many other countries, I tried to learn at least 20 words of each country I visited, but studied the most Italian as I went on a several week trip there. Italian was very easy--especially after learning Spanish. I was able to communicate fairly well using my Spanish and a few Italian words thrown occasionally in to show I was trying, "allora" is always able to be worked in somehow if I didn't know an Italian word in the sentence!

 

I've taught myself a bit of Greek and Latin and failed horribly with Hebrew, it was probably the hardest of any language I've tried to learn. They did appreciate the 6 or 8 measly words I was able to learn when I visited Israel, whereas the French were very upset about my (I thought) much better efforts, they took affront to my pronunciation, I just switched to speaking German or English with them, I actually got less flak that way than when I tried to speak French! I found the same was true of Japanese and Bulgarian as the Hebrew, the dozen words I learned were much appreciated.

[Mamasteff]

... English sure does present some difficult issues as a foreign language; the disconnect between spelling and pronunciation being one of them, but Spanish has its own issues too, just like any other language!

 

I am curious, what are the languages you have learned?

 

For me, Italian was by far the easiest. As far as most difficult, I think Arabic and Tamil get a tie, which explains why I can't really speak either!

 

I don't know about Tamil, but Arabic was actually very easy for me to learn. At least for everyday speaking, the phonetic rules are all firmly in place. Learning the alphabet was easy, and once you know the ONE sound that shape makes, you can begin to read. (alright, so some letters have different shapes based on where they fall in a word - but very easy to pick up!)

 

When I learned it, I became a MUCH better of teaching reading to my own and other children. I think all teachers should have to learn to read using a different alphabet, so that they have recent experience of looking at a shape and figuring out its sound. It really helps with knowing what your student is going through!