S/O hiring cleaning help - if you are "pro-hiring cleaning help" - mentality?

[Colleen in NS]

If you are "pro-hiring cleaning help," (whether or not you actually can or do right now) what is your mentality? I've read the responses in the other thread, where people talk about how they need to spend time doing other things rather than deep cleaning or they keep on top of daily cleaning and leave deep cleaning to someone else. If you do or think you would hire cleaning help, what do you do to help your kids develop responsibility and habits of daily living, habits necessary to conduct your own life and keep your own abode as an adult (whether it's a shack, apt., house, or castle)? I think to myself, "Well, doing schoolwork like math, grammar, Latin, etc. develops responsibility. Keeping your room neat develops it, and so does doing the daily after supper chores of helping cleanup, cleaning up toys and books, folding laundry." But I question myself on things like, "What if they don't learn to scrub the entire bathroom so it's clean? What if they don't learn to scrub the whole kitchen floor so it's really clean? What if they aren't taught to notice the batter splatters on the kitchen wall after mixing up a cake? and on and on." I mean, I could make a mile long list of things that I COULD teach my kids to do around our home (and my house is small compared to what I've seen described here), in the name of teaching responsibility, but how far should I go? Are these things really going to matter later? If I get them to do a whole list of little things like cleaning switchplates and doorknobs, and cleaning mirrors, etc. every week, is that really so much better than teaching them to do their math problems thoroughly, writing out the steps? Each of those items takes time and teaches responsibility - how do I decide what would be the better thing to spend time teaching them? Or doing myself? EDIT to add: I think I'm rather influenced right now by a particular book about how chores teach responsibility - it seems to me that the authors of this book fill much of their family's time with household chores in order to do this. I can see the point (and this is partly what makes me feel guilty about want to hire help so I can tutor/do other things), but it's also why I question what else can teach responsibility. Just so you know what's influencing me right now.

 

I find I spend more time nowadays keeping up with Latin studies, learning to teach Spanish now, keeping up with math and grammar concepts, and trying to find concentrated time to read ahead of my kids when I'm not tired. I feel sometimes like I could spend more time studying ahead, because I like doing that better than I like keeping up with housecleaning. I'd rather get paid to teach someone how to read than give the shower a deep cleaning. I'd rather learn this academic skills stuff and teach it to my kids myself than hire that out - but maybe I "should" be spending more time taking care of the house and teaching my kids more chores than studying.....but I've already learned how to do a lot of the house stuff and have spent years doing it! And the kids do do a lot of more immediate chores related to eating and maintaining themselves and their possessions and helping with the bigger family picture. I suppose I *could* skip teaching things like Spanish, Latin, drawing, or I could drop science experiments to once a month - after all, "I have survived to age 40 without having done these things in my education." But I don't WANT to drop them, I WANT to give my kids this great education and these great thinking skills that I've learned about! I see the overall value in them, and I want to press on - I do think the thinking skills will be valuable when they grow up - not just for lofty subjects, but for daily life! I see these skill subjects I'm doing now as training for them to think clearly about EVERYTHING - from calculus right down to deciding whether or not cleaning doorknobs is important this week. :lol:

 

I heard a university professor say once, when he came to give a lecture at a local church, that he does what he does best (teaching and lecturing), and he hires others to do what they do best.

 

I don't necessarily want to hire cleaning just so I can have more time to sit around and paint my nails (although I do like to do that every so often) or have hours of idle pleasure. And I don't want to do it so I can have more time to cart my kids to scads of activities (although I would, if I thought the activities would be beneficial to them/teach them something they will need as an adult, or to actually have time to do some volunteer work without feeling as though I'm doing it out of guilt, but because we really want to help, without feeling that we are sacrificing something else we feel is important for our family). I'm just wondering what other ways there are of teaching responsibility to kids than just house chores, if I trade in the deep cleaning for more time on my "professional development". Home and personal maintenance chores will always be there, but don't they change depending on circumstances? Keeping a house clean is vastly different than keeping a room clean or an apt. clean.

 

Just tossing out some random thoughts and questions related mostly to teaching kids responsibility and how do you do it if you have no qualms about hiring any kind of household help while you are homeschooling.

 

What do you think? (not about my situation, but about the issues in general)

Edited February 6, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[iquilt]

Well, we have cleaners come once every two weeks and it's been a life-saver for us. We pick up everyday, do all of our own laundry and the kids put their own stuff away. The night before the cleaners are due we do an extra pick up to make sure nothing important gets sucked up into the vacuum and then we get out of the way. Right now they come while we are gone at music and piano lessons so I see it as multi-tasking at its finest. On the "off" weeks we spend some time cleaning the bathrooms and kitchen on Sunday and everyone has a job to do. I wish my house was that clean everyday :)

[Aubrey]

At my dc's ages, I just don't see them learning a lot of those things. They are learning to change diapers, cook, entertain babies, etc., though. As long as it all gets taught at some pt, I'm not too fussy about the order or duration, kwim?

[Parrothead]

There is nothing that says kids can't have chores if you have cleaning help. Even if you have every day help the kids can clean their own rooms. If you have every day help, the help will have to have the a couple days a week off. That can be the day for the kids to clean the bathroom.

 

For kitchen cleaning, I don't know if cleaning help will clean up the kids' mess after they bake a cake. Having them clean up immediately after the cake is in the oven will teach them responsibility. Especially if they decide to bake just after the help cleans the kitchen.

[Aubrey]

There is nothing that says kids can't have chores if you have cleaning help. Even if you have every day help the kids can clean their own rooms. If you have every day help, the help will have to have the a couple days a week off. That can be the day for the kids to clean the bathroom.

 

For kitchen cleaning, I don't know if cleaning help will clean up the kids' mess after they bake a cake. Having them clean up immediately after the cake is in the oven will teach them responsibility. Especially if they decide to bake just after the help cleans the kitchen.

 

Right. Whereas w/out help, the dc might not have gotten a chance to bake the cake. Because while the help cleaned the kitchen, maybe mom was hs'ing.

 

So when she's done hs'ing, w/out help, then she's got to clean the kitchen. Then it's time to start dinner. If there's a cake involved, the dc are lucky to get to stir. And chances are, she's less patient w/ them, because she's got so much to do.

[The Governess]

Good question!

 

We have our house cleaned twice a month. My kids are still too young to really help "clean" the house, although my oldest does make her bed and can fold laundry and both of them are required to help me tidy up the house (they are getting very good at putting away their toys, but I do have to be in the room with them, keeping them on task).

 

But getting the house cleaned twice a month still leaves plenty of cleaning to do in between. Sure, I don't have to scrub out my shower or bathtub or clean off my ceiling fans. But I do still have to scrub my floors (there's no way we could go two weeks without doing this), vacuum, wipe down furniture and counters, etc. We still have to get out the carpet cleaner if someone spills on the floor, we still have to clean out the fridge, etc. And if we're making muffins and the batter gets on the cabinets, we don't leave it for the cleaning lady :lol:.

 

I think that with daily chores and once-in-a-while deep cleaning of the house (cleaning out closets, the garage, inside cabinets, etc.) kids will still get the benefit of learning how a home stays clean and neat. I don't think that they need to do it once a week every week of their lives to understand that. Growing up, my parent's house was always a wreck. My mom hated cleaning and never taught me any cleaning skills. But living on my own I always managed to have a clean home. It's only in the last two years that I have decided to use a service so that I can relieve some of the stress in our home right now and use the time to focus on other things.

 

I think if you give your kids basic cleaning skills and bring them up to enjoy having a clean, tidy home and take care of their things that they will be well equipped to care for their own homes, whether they decide to hire help to do it or do it themselves.

[Parrothead]

Right. Whereas w/out help, the dc might not have gotten a chance to bake the cake. Because while the help cleaned the kitchen, maybe mom was hs'ing.

 

So when she's done hs'ing, w/out help, then she's got to clean the kitchen. Then it's time to start dinner. If there's a cake involved, the dc are lucky to get to stir. And chances are, she's less patient w/ them, because she's got so much to do.

Which is exactly why I baked the cake two days ago while dd was playing. :lol:

[Colleen in NS]

Good question!

 

Thanks, cuz I feel really stupid putting this all out there!

 

And if we're making muffins and the batter gets on the cabinets, we don't leave it for the cleaning lady :lol:.

 

ARRRGGGHHHHH!!!!! :lol::lol: I am so embarrassed about the cake batter example, but it's one of those tiny little things that I wonder about! Because *I* don't always get around to wiping those spatters from the wall behind the counter - and then it builds up and sticks, and I give it a halfhearted wipe when wiping the counter after supper, and there are mini spatters building up......that I just don't care about.....that much! But they bother me somewhat.....but I need to get moving on to supervising bedtime and reading aloud, which is more important than cake spatters at that moment.... Thanks for laughing with me about it!

 

Carry on, ladies, you are helping me think this through.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Unless you have "Alice" living with you 24/7 there are going to be plenty of tasks left to do around the house.

 

Even part-time help can't complete everything that needs to be done in the average home.

 

Of course children need the survival skills of taking care of a home, cooking, shopping, budgeting, laundry, banking/taxes, etc. Having help around the house doesn't prevent you from teaching any of these.

 

Remember-when/if you hire extra help you are in control of what work they do and when. You should be able to set this up to correspond with what you are trying to teach your kids.

[Joanne]

Honestly?

 

My time is limited. When I had a service, it was worth paying others to deep clean the most used areas so that my family and I could invest our time elsewhere.

 

That said, we all still have plenty of daily responsibilities to fulfill in order for this family and house to function.

 

I don't "get" the exclusion concern on this one at all.

 

My kids:

 

load/unload the dishwasher

cook

do laundry (sort, wash, dry, fold, put away)

wipe counters

wipe toilets

spot clean mirrors

sweep floors

organize/clean big things like the garage

do landscaping

 

They know that we don't have help when the income/budget doesn't allow. They know that they will be expected to deep clean areas in their adult lives if they don't pay a maid. They know how to go about planning for and executing it.

 

Goodness, upon my divorce @ 39, I learned how to mow the lawn (xh and I always had a service). Certainly a person can learn to clean bathrooms at any age.

[FO4UR]

My dc are too young to do the kind of deep cleaning I would hire for...if I could.

 

The hiring of help would be to free MY time, and with all that time I could actually supervise them as they tidy their rooms;) and have time to bake a cake...and eat it too!:tongue_smilie:

[Carol in Cal.]

I learned to clean the windshield of a car properly by sitting inside of one many, many times watching someone else do it. (Yes, dear, Grandma DOES remember the olden days when others pumped your gas for you and cleaned the windows!) I only had to try it a couple of times before I got the 'feel' of it, once they went to self-service, because I basically already knew what implements were used, how they were used, and what the result should be.

 

I think that if you have a cleaning service the kids will see the right stuff happening at your house more often than they would in mine, LOL, and they won't need a whole lot of practice to learn to actually do it themselves.

[Erica in OR]

A team of two ladies came every other week. My main reason for doing it was to help my outlook on life. Sure, I knew I could mop the floors, super-clean the bathrooms, haul a vacuum around, and dust (or teach the kids how to do pieces of it, although all were under 8 y.o.). But I didn't make it a priority, until looking at it got too irritating to ignore anymore, or I just gave up and lived with feeling irritated. I decided being at home, sitting and seeing that environment all the time finally was too much for me to deal with. We could afford to have the cleaners, so I decided to try it. I still did the usual clutter pick-up, laundry, dishes, with the kids' help (they also do/did daily sweeping and wiping). This was all in addition to working out of the home part-time, homeschooling, and being involved in the activities of two churches as a pastor's wife.

 

It really did help my outlook for the several months we used them. At that time, I decided saving that money for something else (Lasik surgery) was more of a priority. Since the house was also already at a stage where it had been maintained as clean, I could more easily take over and try to clean more often.

 

It's been about a year now. Can you guess what stage my house is in now? :tongue_smilie:

 

Erica in OR

[The Governess]

ARRRGGGHHHHH!!!!! :lol::lol: I am so embarrassed about the cake batter example, but it's one of those tiny little things that I wonder about! Because *I* don't always get around to wiping those spatters from the wall behind the counter - and then it builds up and sticks, and I give it a halfhearted wipe when wiping the counter after supper, and there are mini spatters building up......that I just don't care about.....that much! But they bother me somewhat.....but I need to get moving on to supervising bedtime and reading aloud, which is more important than cake spatters at that moment.... Thanks for laughing with me about it!

 

Carry on, ladies, you are helping me think this through.

 

I was laughing because I could just picture my cleaning lady's face if she came into the kitchen and there was batter spattered all over the cabinets that we had left there for her. :lol: But I do know what you mean about the build-up of stuff! My problem is my stovetop - I'm really bad about keeping it cleaned off - my dh cooks a lot and sometimes there is a big burned-on mess that I just don't want to deal with before bed!

[jamnkats]

For us, it is the socially responsible thing to do. If we were ever at the point we could afford someone.

[Colleen in NS]

We pick up everyday, do all of our own laundry and the kids put their own stuff away.

 

On the "off" weeks we spend some time cleaning the bathrooms and kitchen on Sunday and everyone has a job to do.

 

So, you basically keep doing the daily needs which are truly needs like pickup and laundry, then you do some of the non-daily things, and cleaners do the deep cleaning, yes?

 

I think what I really need to do is make a priority list and delegate out some deep cleaning on a regular basis that I never get to. I've always just done survival things since having children - laundry, cook, toilet, tub-every-so-often, etc.). Haven't done a deep clean in years. Just crisis mode, like get the mold off walls, clean out fridge when completely disgusting, clean stove drip pans when stuff really builds up, etc..

 

At my dc's ages, I just don't see them learning a lot of those things. They are learning to change diapers, cook, entertain babies, etc., though. As long as it all gets taught at some pt, I'm not too fussy about the order or duration, kwim?

 

I love your attitude here. I don't have young babies and toddlers anymore, and I only have two, so they haven't gotten this kind of practice, which I do wish they could get.

 

There is nothing that says kids can't have chores if you have cleaning help. Even if you have every day help the kids can clean their own rooms. If you have every day help, the help will have to have the a couple days a week off. That can be the day for the kids to clean the bathroom.

 

For kitchen cleaning, I don't know if cleaning help will clean up the kids' mess after they bake a cake. Having them clean up immediately after the cake is in the oven will teach them responsibility. Especially if they decide to bake just after the help cleans the kitchen.

 

Oh yeah, about the cake splatters.....hee hee......I haven't gotten that far in my training of them with baking, to clean up from start to finish. They help put things away (baking ingredients) and get things out, measure, pour, etc.. But usually by the time the cake is in the oven, I'm frazzled and needing to get on to the next task - like Aubrey was talking about. Cooking and baking is one thing I do plan to teach them, including the cleanup part, but haven't gotten to that yet. I guess I used that example as one of the little but bothersome things in my house - the dried on splatters that bug me but not enough to drop something else and have a splatter-cleaning session in my kitchen. :lol:

 

I think you're right about there is nothing that says my kids can't have other tasks even with hired help. I just have to figure out what those could be.

 

And Aubrey, I liked your dishwasher comment in the other thread. I never thought about it, but a dishwasher became household help, didn't it. So did clothes washers. And electric irons, and dryers, and sewing machines, and electric mixers and a bunch of other things I never thought of. As did my KitchenAid food processor I bought a couple of months ago (love it) on a super-reduced sale, thanks to Ria's comments on them.

 

I think that with daily chores and once-in-a-while deep cleaning of the house (cleaning out closets, the garage, inside cabinets, etc.) kids will still get the benefit of learning how a home stays clean and neat. I don't think that they need to do it once a week every week of their lives to understand that. Growing up, my parent's house was always a wreck. My mom hated cleaning and never taught me any cleaning skills. But living on my own I always managed to have a clean home. It's only in the last two years that I have decided to use a service so that I can relieve some of the stress in our home right now and use the time to focus on other things.

 

I think if you give your kids basic cleaning skills and bring them up to enjoy having a clean, tidy home and take care of their things that they will be well equipped to care for their own homes, whether they decide to hire help to do it or do it themselves.

 

Daily chores and once-in-awhile-deep-cleaning......hmmm....this is good. See, things like cleaning the oven, stove drip pans, fridge, fridge top, cleaning the kitchen cabinets, walls, windows, screens, moldy tub caulking, organizing the desk, even outside tasks, garage.....all of this stuff has been dropped in favour of the more immediate and urgent. And much as I've tried, I can't bring myself to dedicate all my non-homeschooling/cooking/laundering/baking/bookkeeping/planning time to tackling all these other things, even with family help. We'd be working all the time.

 

The part you said about kids not needing to practice the same thing week after week, and growing up in a messy house but learning on your own to keep a neat home.....that's comforting to hear. I figured out a lot of stuff on my own, too, when I had my own place after leaving home. I'm just still slightly influenced by a particular book where women say their mothers never taught them housekeeping skills and so they were in despair and needed help in learning skills and teaching their kids skills, so the book's rec. is to teach your kids skills and fill their time with chores and keep them going on the same chores for a long time.

 

Of course children need the survival skills of taking care of a home, cooking, shopping, budgeting, laundry, banking/taxes, etc. Having help around the house doesn't prevent you from teaching any of these.

 

Remember-when/if you hire extra help you are in control of what work they do and when. You should be able to set this up to correspond with what you are trying to teach your kids.

 

This is helpful, thanks!

 

I don't "get" the exclusion concern on this one at all.

 

My kids:

 

load/unload the dishwasher

cook

do laundry (sort, wash, dry, fold, put away)

wipe counters

wipe toilets

spot clean mirrors

sweep floors

organize/clean big things like the garage

do landscaping

 

They know that we don't have help when the income/budget doesn't allow. They know that they will be expected to deep clean areas in their adult lives if they don't pay a maid. They know how to go about planning for and executing it.

 

Goodness, upon my divorce @ 39, I learned how to mow the lawn (xh and I always had a service). Certainly a person can learn to clean bathrooms at any age.

 

You're right. I guess I won't be able to teach them everything, because circumstances will change. Maybe they'll learn to mow a lawn here, but have to learn to clean moss off of bricks on a house on a small city lot, or something like that.

 

Thanks for detailing what your kids do, even as you have a cleaning service.

 

I could actually supervise them as they tidy their rooms;)

 

It would be nice to be able to supervise every little detail, wouldn't it. So you could feel as though they're getting a good training. At least that's what I think. My dd's room gets pretty messy, and I get frustrated because I blow through it every 6 weeks or so and help her clean it all up, but on a daily basis, she forgets a lot of things. And I can't get in there every evening to help her go over the details.

 

I think that if you have a cleaning service the kids will see the right stuff happening at your house more often than they would in mine, LOL, and they won't need a whole lot of practice to learn to actually do it themselves.

 

I agree with you, too. Everyone is helping me to see the obvious!

 

I decided being at home, sitting and seeing that environment all the time finally was too much for me to deal with. We could afford to have the cleaners, so I decided to try it. I still did the usual clutter pick-up, laundry, dishes, with the kids' help (they also do/did daily sweeping and wiping). This was all in addition to working out of the home part-time, homeschooling, and being involved in the activities of two churches as a pastor's wife.

 

Thanks for the peek into your house/life, too. It's helpful.

 

I was laughing because I could just picture my cleaning lady's face if she came into the kitchen and there was batter spattered all over the cabinets that we had left there for her. :lol: But I do know what you mean about the build-up of stuff! My problem is my stovetop - I'm really bad about keeping it cleaned off - my dh cooks a lot and sometimes there is a big burned-on mess that I just don't want to deal with before bed!

 

Yep. The stove is very low priority. Though I wish I could get to it more often!

 

You are all so helpful, thank you!!!!

Edited February 7, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[Colleen in NS]

For us, it is the socially responsible thing to do.

 

What do you mean?

[snickelfritz]

A few observations. My kids are younger, although I think they apply to all ages:

 

We still have to keep the house tidy on a day-to-day basis. The kids are learning that if they make a mess, they clean it up. If they spill something, they should wipe it up without needing to be asked. We are working on them getting their dirty clothes to the hamper, without me asking. They help set the table and clean off the table.

 

They make their own beds.

Help fold laundry and put it away.

Tidy their rooms.

Run "errands" throughout the house for me.

Clean mirrors, wash windows, wipe counters, clean off the table, etc....as needed.

 

The cleaning service is a fail-safe. The showers, microwave, and dishwasher face should be cleaned weekly, but if we're busy......I at least know they will be cleaned every other week.

 

IMHO---There are far more kids spoiled by a mommy who does everything for them than by having cleaning help.

 

 

--The cleaning help allows us to be involved in several activities. We have something on most days. When we are at home, we can quick-clean the house and turn our attention to homeschooling without fretting about cleaning the showers or the microwave. If we decided to drop most of our activities, I would probably be able to drop the cleaning service. But, I consider those activities as part of our homeschool. I just don't have the convenience of having music, PE, etc... provided by one establishment (a school.) So, it takes us extra driving time to get them in.

 

Finally---I know that I shouldn't feel guilty about having cleaning help. Dh is in complete support of it. He thinks I do a great job as a wife and homeschooling mom and likes that the cleaning service allows me to focus more attention on the homeschooling. I find the comments that say that any competent and physically fit person should do their own cleaning to be sweeping generalization that are judgemental and hurtful.

 

Sorry for the book. The other thread hit some nerves.

[jamnkats]

What do you mean?

 

Well, we don't have welfare or any governmental assistance programs and hiring household help is the standard way middle class "helps" the poorer class. It is just expected.

[Tutor]

 

I think that if you have a cleaning service the kids will see the right stuff happening at your house more often than they would in mine, LOL, and they won't need a whole lot of practice to learn to actually do it themselves.

 

This is one of the reasons I would love to hire a cleaning service... so I could see how it's done. My mom always cleaned when I was at school. After I had been married two weeks and living in my own apartment, I had to call my mom to ask how to clean the toilet... I had seen her do it once that I could remember, and I had no idea what to use. I had been given a toilet brush in a shower gift, but we never owned one growing up, so I had no clue how our toilets at home ever got clean. :glare: My mom laughed, btw... she couldn't believe I couldn't figure it out after all the schooling I'd had... genetics and physics really don't prepare you for toilet scrubbing or baseboard dusting, kwim?

 

It takes me forever to deep clean our house because I am clueless and learning as I go. Then, when I'm done, I don't think my efforts have really been worth it. Having help would be such a time saver while I learned to clean better and would provide a good example for my kids to learn from.

[Colleen in NS]

Well, we don't have welfare or any governmental assistance programs and hiring household help is the standard way middle class "helps" the poorer class. It is just expected.

 

So, you mean it's socially responsible in Mexico? If so, I get it now. That makes sense to me. I thought you meant it was socially responsible in general, for some reason. Thanks for sharing that - it's going to send me off on another mind tangent. :D I wonder if hiring household help is considered socially responsible elsewhere in the world....I just never thought of it that way before.

[Nestof3]

I'm guessing that there are enough responsibilities on a weekly and daily basis that children could learn to help with, and you could always give the cleaning help a week off to teach cleaning if you wanted to. I cannot imagine ever hiring cleaning help due to financial reasons (I'd rather spend my extra money on other things), but I don't have a problem with anyone who does.

 

I'm glad there are a lot of people who hire others to mow their lawn! If not, my husband would be out of a job. :)

[Mommyof4ks]

So, you mean it's socially responsible in Mexico? If so, I get it now. That makes sense to me. I thought you meant it was socially responsible in general, for some reason. Thanks for sharing that - it's going to send me off on another mind tangent. :D I wonder if hiring household help is considered socially responsible elsewhere in the world....I just never thought of it that way before.

 

I think it depends on where you live and the social class system in your area. Growing up it was the 'socially responsible' thing to hire out as much as one could afford to help those that needed the money in the small town that I grew up in here in Texas. It did not occur to me that this was 'strange' until I met DH who's family never hired anything out that someone in the family could figure out how to do themselves. My father was in the construction business when it went belly up in the 80s though, so we learned all about trading and hiring/being hired depend on which families were doing good financially at the time. It has taken this economic downturn to finally convince DH that we need to at least help others who really want to work but cannot find it right now. It is a great lesson to my kids in how community works and how friendships can be made out of a bad situation. Just my experience here in the US in a small town in Texas.

[Colleen in NS]

I think it depends on where you live and the social class system in your area. Growing up it was the 'socially responsible' thing to hire out as much as one could afford to help those that needed the money in the small town that I grew up in here in Texas. It did not occur to me that this was 'strange' until I met DH who's family never hired anything out that someone in the family could figure out how to do themselves. My father was in the construction business when it went belly up in the 80s though, so we learned all about trading and hiring/being hired depend on which families were doing good financially at the time. It has taken this economic downturn to finally convince DH that we need to at least help others who really want to work but cannot find it right now. It is a great lesson to my kids in how community works and how friendships can be made out of a bad situation. Just my experience here in the US in a small town in Texas.

 

I hope more people comment on this - it's interesting to me.

 

It definitely has to do with how I grew up! We just did stuff ourselves. What my Mom (single parent) couldn't do (car repairs, household system repairs), she hired, but the rest (housekeeping and yardwork) we did ourselves. Or it just didn't get done.

 

And nestof3 Dawn, my dh would be in the same boat if people suddenly decided they could teach guitar to their own children instead of hiring him! It's funny, because DIY me thinks, "Why would people hire someone to teach guitar when they could just go buy some books and figure out how to teach it themselves??" :lol: I'm GLAD they don't think like me!

[The Governess]

 

The part you said about kids not needing to practice the same thing week after week, and growing up in a messy house but learning on your own to keep a neat home.....that's comforting to hear. I figured out a lot of stuff on my own, too, when I had my own place after leaving home. I'm just still slightly influenced by a particular book where women say their mothers never taught them housekeeping skills and so they were in despair and needed help in learning skills and teaching their kids skills, so the book's rec. is to teach your kids skills and fill their time with chores and keep them going on the same chores for a long time.

 

 

 

 

I'm curious about this book now! :tongue_smilie:

 

You know, I think the most important thing is that we teach our kids to *value* a clean home. If they value it, they will do what it takes to create one in whatever way works for them. Cleaning isn't rocket science. It's not something that you have to practice a ton in order to get right. Once you know which tools are used where, and what cleaners work on what, you're good. Why do we want a clean home? So those of us who live in it and the people that visit us can be comfortable, so our things can be taken care of properly, so we can promote our health. I think that the important part is striving to raise children that are hospitable, good stewards, and mindful of healthy habits. If we do this, the cleaning will get done because they won't feel right having it any other way.

 

Like I said, my house was always a mess growing up. And when I had people over, I could tell they weren't comfortable. And it made me angry. I promised that when I grew up, and had my own home, I would make sure it was a place where people would feel comfortable. It was a huge lesson for me.

[Jean in Newcastle]

So, you mean it's socially responsible in Mexico? If so, I get it now. That makes sense to me. I thought you meant it was socially responsible in general, for some reason. Thanks for sharing that - it's going to send me off on another mind tangent. :D I wonder if hiring household help is considered socially responsible elsewhere in the world....I just never thought of it that way before.

 

It's also considered socially responsible in the Philippines. The maids in the Philippines were absolutely shocked that here in the U.S. I had to clean my own toilets! And that I actually like being able to do those things for myself.

 

As far as the OP goes - I think you can learn responsibility in many ways in life. Taking care of your living environment is one way. Learning to be a team player on a sports team may be another way. Learning to practice declining nouns and conjugating verbs may be another. Or throughout our life we may get a chance to do all of the above in different ways at different times. I think it is the child who is always rescued from following through on those responsibilities as they naturally come up, who is failed by his over-indulgent parents.

[Nestof3]

"Why would people hire someone to teach guitar when they could just go buy some books and figure out how to teach it themselves??" :lol: I'm GLAD they don't think like me!

 

Hee hee. My husband did teach himself, but he still likes to go on youtube and learn from others. He had been working on Classical Gas for months. I was so tired of hearing that song. In fact, even Ben announced one night that he was sick of hearing that song. LOL

 

We are pretty much DIY people here, but moreso for financial reasons than anything else. We would love to have hired someone to paint our renovated area. I am so over it! If we were rich (like most of the people my husband mows lawns for LOL), we would never paint another baseboard!

[Hannah]

For us, it is the socially responsible thing to do. If we were ever at the point we could afford someone.

 

It's also considered socially responsible in the Philippines.

 

It is the norm here too. Those that think about it consider it socially responsible and others are just used to the practice of getting help as soon as it is affordable.

 

I have an au pair who cares for and helps with homeschooling my eldest while I work in the mornings, a cleaner 3 times a week and garden help.

 

To my Dutch family this sounded extravagant and lazy until they came to visit and realized that these people would not have any income at all if they were not working for me. There is 43% unemployment in South Africa and social services are extremely limited and difficult to access. I pay way above the minimum wage, have the cleaner more days than we need because she lost another job and the wages we pay support at least 14 other people.

 

I prefer to work 25 hours a week in a professional job that I enjoy and pay 35% of my after tax salary for childcare and services at home. I'm fulfilled in my job and have loads of free time to homeschool, afterschool and spend with my children in the afternoon.

 

My children have to tidy up after themselves, pick up their rooms, make their beds, set the table, pack the dishwasher (but usually they don't unpack it), get the laundry washed and hung (our cleaner irons for us), help with cooking, etc. So they are still tought a sense of routine and personal responsibility. When they are older, we'll make sure they can iron and do a proper clean, but these are skills that can be taught later.

 

My sisters who grew up with help now live in the UK where they don't have it and both have well-kept houses. One more so than the other, but that is their personality.

[Laura Corin]

I grew up with no household education at all. Well, I learned to wash dishes, wipe surfaces, and wash and iron clothes. My mother did practically no housework and I learned nothing. I managed to look after myself at university, and all the way through to twelve years ago when I got full time household help (at about age 33). I really don't think that household stuff is that difficult to learn.

 

If we do get a cleaner, I fully expect my children to find life without her hard after they leave home, just as they will find life hard without the other comforts that their parents have worked for (nice house, cars, satellite TV...). I do think they'll cope and learn, just as I did.

 

Good question.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura (who still hasn't called in a cleaner and who might, to her surprise, actually be feeling a little pride in her own self-taught housekeeping skills)

[Laura Corin]

 

You know, I think the most important thing is that we teach our kids to *value* a clean home. If they value it, they will do what it takes to create one in whatever way works for them. Cleaning isn't rocket science. It's not something that you have to practice a ton in order to get right.

 

I grew up in a messy home and really didn't have a feel for how anything else would work. Once I had my own home to look after, I would let things go and then be overwhelmed when I tried to impose some kind of order. That wasn't due to lack of training (the actual tasks are easy) but because I didn't know how a tidy house would work, and didn't know how important it was to me. I could have learned that just as well from a house with a professional cleaner visiting, if my mother had been interested in tidiness.

 

Calvin has mentioned how much he likes the house being tidy. Hobbes is a more chaotic personality, so we shall see how he develops.

 

I should say that I see nothing morally superior in a tidy house: people have the right to choose how they live. Tidy just works better for me.

 

Laura

[Colleen in NS]

IMHO---There are far more kids spoiled by a mommy who does everything for them than by having cleaning help.

 

He...likes that the cleaning service allows me to focus more attention on the homeschooling.

 

More food for my thought process. Thanks!

 

This is one of the reasons I would love to hire a cleaning service... so I could see how it's done.

 

It takes me forever to deep clean our house because I am clueless and learning as I go. Then, when I'm done, I don't think my efforts have really been worth it. Having help would be such a time saver while I learned to clean better and would provide a good example for my kids to learn from.

 

I guess this is why cleaning services and the professional organizing profession are thriving now. I'm starting to think (after years of thinking I could clean and organize pretty decently, since I'm such a DIYer, having taught myself so much in the past 12 or so years) that I might actually LEARN a thing or two myself by hiring help!! I could think of hiring help as an education for me and my kids, instead of worrying that my hidden motive might just be to get out of work! :D

 

I'm curious about this book now! :tongue_smilie:

 

You know, I think the most important thing is that we teach our kids to *value* a clean home. If they value it, they will do what it takes to create one in whatever way works for them. Cleaning isn't rocket science. It's not something that you have to practice a ton in order to get right. Once you know which tools are used where, and what cleaners work on what, you're good. Why do we want a clean home? So those of us who live in it and the people that visit us can be comfortable, so our things can be taken care of properly, so we can promote our health. I think that the important part is striving to raise children that are hospitable, good stewards, and mindful of healthy habits. If we do this, the cleaning will get done because they won't feel right having it any other way.

 

Sorry, don't want to mention the book here. ;) I've learned a few good practical things from it, but I've also let other aspects of it influence me, due to past experiences, in ways I'm not sure I want to be influenced anymore. Which is why I'm hashing this over with all of you guys! Cuz you've got diverse opinions I've never considered before. And that's all I've got to say about the book. :tongue_smilie:

 

But, oooooooooh, those thoughts about *value* are very helpful! Teach them (and us) to value a clean home, healthy habits, and all the practical aspects that promote that value, and they'll be able to promote that value in their adult lives (given a few practical hints, not endless weeks of toilet scrubbing practice, LOL!). Yes? I think you're right about helping others feel comfortable in our homes, too. I do try to do this, but we don't host people as much as we used to - I guess because of starting to feel like a failure in keeping up my home, in light of more home educating responsibilities and working hard to keep living within our means. But I'm diverging....those value thoughts helped me. Thanks.

 

It's also considered socially responsible in the Philippines. The maids in the Philippines were absolutely shocked that here in the U.S. I had to clean my own toilets! And that I actually like being able to do those things for myself.

 

As far as the OP goes - I think you can learn responsibility in many ways in life. Taking care of your living environment is one way. Learning to be a team player on a sports team may be another way. Learning to practice declining nouns and conjugating verbs may be another. Or throughout our life we may get a chance to do all of the above in different ways at different times. I think it is the child who is always rescued from following through on those responsibilities as they naturally come up, who is failed by his over-indulgent parents.

 

Thanks for confirming what I was thinking, about how there are many things besides endless housekeeping tasks that can teach responsibility. And your comment about maids in the Philippines being shocked is an eye opener for me. Just not something that has EVER been in my radar.

 

We are pretty much DIY people here, but moreso for financial reasons than anything else. We would love to have hired someone to paint our renovated area. I am so over it! If we were rich (like most of the people my husband mows lawns for LOL), we would never paint another baseboard!

 

I know exactly what you mean. Finances are our main reason for being DIY. Glad I've learned some skills over the years, but am tired of *having* to do certain things. My kitchen table is all scratched up and yesterday I thought, "If I need a decent looking kitchen table at which I can tutor for pay, and if dh or I are never going to get around to painting it, why don't I just find someone who loves to paint, hand them the supplies, and pay them to do it?" "Because, Colleen, you are DIY, and you should be able to do it yourself, and you can save the money!" ARRGGGHHH!!!

 

To my Dutch family this sounded extravagant and lazy until they came to visit and realized that these people would not have any income at all if they were not working for me. There is 43% unemployment in South Africa and social services are extremely limited and difficult to access. I pay way above the minimum wage, have the cleaner more days than we need because she lost another job and the wages we pay support at least 14 other people.

 

I prefer to work 25 hours a week in a professional job that I enjoy and pay 35% of my after tax salary for childcare and services at home. I'm fulfilled in my job and have loads of free time to homeschool, afterschool and spend with my children in the afternoon.

 

My children have to tidy up after themselves, pick up their rooms, make their beds, set the table, pack the dishwasher (but usually they don't unpack it), get the laundry washed and hung (our cleaner irons for us), help with cooking, etc. So they are still tought a sense of routine and personal responsibility. When they are older, we'll make sure they can iron and do a proper clean, but these are skills that can be taught later.

 

Completely eye-opening to me. Thank you for explaining all that.

 

And the part about working a job you enjoy so you can pay for help and have plenty of time to raise/educate your kids...that sounds wonderful to me.

 

And thanks for explaining how your routine helps them learn responsibility. I feel like I'm repeating myself with my responses, but I really appreciate reading every bit.

 

I really don't think that household stuff is that difficult to learn.

 

If we do get a cleaner, I fully expect my children to find life without her hard after they leave home, just as they will find life hard without the other comforts that their parents have worked for (nice house, cars, satellite TV...). I do think they'll cope and learn, just as I did.

 

Laura (who still hasn't called in a cleaner and who might, to her surprise, actually be feeling a little pride in her own self-taught housekeeping skills)

 

I do suppose, that adult life will be hard work anyway, no matter how much I teach my kids about anything while they are under my care. And I think you're right about finding life hard without the comforts parents earned. I just bought myself a RED (I love it!) 12 c. KitchenAid food processor a few weeks ago. It was heavily discounted, or I wouldn't have splashed out for it. But it was exactly what I wanted (my dh noticed it in an ad), so I pounced on the deal. But KA is pricey, and I wouldn't have dreamed of buying it 14 years ago. I've never had a food processor before, so it's a blast learning how much it can do and how much time it can save me! I'm 40. Lots of people under 40 have food processors, as far as I can tell, and maybe some take it for granted that you just have to have a food processor. But we worked hard for it, now I appreciate it, so if I can work and appreciate the fruits of my labours, then I suppose my kids can, too, even if I don't teach them every little detail of practical adult daily living.

 

Thanks!

 

And that's funny about you not hiring someone yet! Live it up with your newfound housekeeping skills!

 

That wasn't due to lack of training (the actual tasks are easy) but because I didn't know how a tidy house would work, and didn't know how important it was to me. I could have learned that just as well from a house with a professional cleaner visiting, if my mother had been interested in tidiness.

 

Hmmm....yes, not knowing how important it is to me. I think that's why the "hire/not hire" is bothering me so much - having a clean, neat, organized home *is* important to me, yet it has become impossible to keep up to my past standards on my own or with just my family, because of other things I want to prioritize and do myself (good education, which takes time for me to learn and to learn how to teach). I've done the "let it go" thing for years now, but now I think I want to pick up my past standards again. I just have to figure out how to trade around some things (like tutoring for pay so we can have financial breathing room, but I could use some of it to hire help from someone who really needs the money AND get the bonus of not having to think about the hated tasks....).

 

Thanks, all of you, for hashing these things out with me. Feel free to add more thoughts!

[dirty ethel rackham]

Boy, you have given me a lot to think about:).

 

I suppose I am falling down on teaching my kids how to keep an entire house clean by having help. Basically, I can't do it myself. Either I am terribly lazy (that is what I was told day in and day out growing up) or terribly unskilled (even though I was raised in a spotless home by a mom who tried to teach me how.) I have spent much of my adult life fighting the guilt about not being good enough. Well, I don't want my kids to have that attitude.

 

My kids are learning how to do household chores (they may not have as many chores as some families here, but they have WAY more chores than their friends do -homeschooled and not.) Since the cleaning woman only comes every two weeks, we have to do plenty in between or else we couldn't have anyone over except after the house is done. They know how to clean a bathroom because it gets dirty really fast. They know that they need to clean up any messes they make, like food splatters on the walls. They do wash walls, wipe up spills on the floors, wipe up the entry way several times a day - we have two seasons here in Chicago-land - summer and muddy;).

 

What my kids are not learning well is how to manage a home well, because they do not have a good example - me. Besides my neurotic aversion to housework (always not feeling good enough), I have health issues that make it difficult. I have limited energy resources and I need to prioritize how I spend that energy - kids' education, family relationships, outside interests for all of us, spiritual growth, earning money to help pay for extras. I don't want to spend that energy on something that gives me so little joy. I have tried to have the FLYlady attitude of "blessing my family" but am not too successful at it.:blushing:

 

I am confident that my kids are learning responsibility, just not necessarily how to manage a home with perfection. I feel more at ease with the idea that we have a fall back for all the things that I just don't get to on a regular basis. I am also confident that they will grow into the job if they need to.

[Colleen in NS]

Boy, you have given me a lot to think about:).

 

I suppose I am falling down on teaching my kids how to keep an entire house clean by having help. Basically, I can't do it myself. Either I am terribly lazy (that is what I was told day in and day out growing up) or terribly unskilled (even though I was raised in a spotless home by a mom who tried to teach me how.) I have spent much of my adult life fighting the guilt about not being good enough. Well, I don't want my kids to have that attitude.

 

My kids are learning how to do household chores (they may not have as many chores as some families here, but they have WAY more chores than their friends do -homeschooled and not.) Since the cleaning woman only comes every two weeks, we have to do plenty in between or else we couldn't have anyone over except after the house is done. They know how to clean a bathroom because it gets dirty really fast. They know that they need to clean up any messes they make, like food splatters on the walls. They do wash walls, wipe up spills on the floors, wipe up the entry way several times a day - we have two seasons here in Chicago-land - summer and muddy;).

 

What my kids are not learning well is how to manage a home well, because they do not have a good example - me. Besides my neurotic aversion to housework (always not feeling good enough), I have health issues that make it difficult. I have limited energy resources and I need to prioritize how I spend that energy - kids' education, family relationships, outside interests for all of us, spiritual growth, earning money to help pay for extras. I don't want to spend that energy on something that gives me so little joy. I have tried to have the FLYlady attitude of "blessing my family" but am not too successful at it.:blushing:

 

I am confident that my kids are learning responsibility, just not necessarily how to manage a home with perfection. I feel more at ease with the idea that we have a fall back for all the things that I just don't get to on a regular basis. I am also confident that they will grow into the job if they need to.

 

Nope, you've given *me* more to think about. Thank you for contributing!!

 

I was just thinking about the management aspect 15 minute ago. I think that's another part I need to learn, too. Be the *true* Prov. 31 woman, if you like, cuz she didn't do it all, she hired lots of help and oversaw all the work. It actually sounds like fun to me, instead of feeling scattered in a million pieces all the time, never feeling like I'm doing any one thing well.

 

I've often thought that if we could just move to a smaller, cheaper house then things would be easier. The reality is, there are no cheaper smaller houses in our area (where dh finds adequate work opportunities) that I would feel safe raising our family in, so I have to find a new way of managing our life the way it is.

 

Yep, "grow into the job if they need to." Guess that's what we all do, eh? I'm definitely growing into this classical home education project, despite my great lack of good training growing up in public schools. So why do I think I have to do all the other stuff myself?? :D

 

You are all like free therapy to me. :D

[Joanne]

You're right. I guess I won't be able to teach them everything, because circumstances will change. Maybe they'll learn to mow a lawn here, but have to learn to clean moss off of bricks on a house on a small city lot, or something like that.

 

Thanks for detailing what your kids do, even as you have a cleaning service.

 

FTR, I don't have one anymore. It was the first thing to go after I dropped job #3. :)

 

I have a pending job opportunity to clean an office building (2 - 3 hours, 5 days a week, flexible hours if they are after business hours). If I get this job, I don't *think* I will re-hire my cleaning service, but I am open if the quality of family life is such that it's worth it.