Man or bear?

[Heartstrings]

29 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I think the point of the question is our immediate reaction.  And that is that we HAVE to assume the man is dangerous. Of course most of us have more experience with men than bears….again kind of the point.  What is our immediate reaction to the threat level of men? 

Exactly.   In my mind the question is just supposed to be a gut reaction, quick-man or bear.  So a random man out of nowhere or a bear.  This isn’t a man I know, or know of,  I’m not meeting him in a safe context, I’m not seeing other people react to him or being introduced by people I know.  I’m alone, I’m the woods, with no one around and boom-a man.  You have to be wary.  Of course I’d feel different running into Bob, Susan’s husband at the Costco, or Tommy I know a bit from story time at the library.    If I’m in a vulnerable position, alone in the woods, I’d have to be more cautious.  
 

And yes, if you just say “picture a bear” I see a black bear.  My archetypal bear is the black bears that I’m most likely to encounter.  
Honestly if you say “picture running into a man in the woods” I’m picturing serial killers from Criminal Minds or a hunter of some sort, not Chad the avid hiker with vegan snacks.  
 

I don’t live in fear of men.  I frequently go to parks or stores in areas other people consider bad areas and won’t go with me, including our favorite one where I can see the homeless shelter and soup kitchen from the park.  I take a short cut through the ghetto once a week because it cuts 5 minutes off of my drive.  I drive across the country and use rest areas and gas stations  late at night. There’s just a difference between “in town” levels of risk and “isolated in the woods”.  

Edited April 25 by Heartstrings

[pinball]

30 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

And that is that we HAVE to assume the man is dangerous.

Yes, this is the DESIRED AND WANTED response to the question, for all the people who are anti-men and just push that idea ad nauseum.

Thank God not everyone answers that way!

[Scarlett]

18 minutes ago, pinball said:

Yes, this is the DESIRED AND WANTED response to the question, for all the people who are anti-men and just push that idea ad nauseum.

Thank God not everyone answers that way!

Who are these anti men? You obviously live in a different world than I do,  

[Heartstrings]

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLu1vkxc/
 

This bear is just a good boy. Just an oversized puppy really.  

[Meriwether]

20 minutes ago, Katy said:

I don’t think it’s that surprising. Black bears are far more common un the US than Brown. And Brown bears very rarely attack in the areas they are common in the US. And dangerous men are the ones to fear in the US. And history shows that the most dangerous men are also the ones who act the least dangerous. 

Decent men are far more common than dangerous men. If you are going to assume "the ones to fear", you should assume a grizzly. This is *exactly* the uneven assumptions I was talking about.

 

And your last sentence is nuts. Absolutely nuts. The men in my family do not act dangerous. That doesn't make them dangerous.

[Scarlett]

23 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

 

And yes, if you just say “picture a bear” I see a black bear.  My archetypal bear is the black bears that I’m most likely to encounter.  
Honestly if you say “picture running into a man in the woods” I’m picturing serial killers from Criminal Minds or a hunter of some sort, not Chad the avid hiker with vegan snacks.  
 

 

This image cracks me up. Lol

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLu1vkxc/
 

This bear is just a good boy. Just an oversized puppy really.  

That is adorable.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

Decent men are far more common than dangerous men. If you are going to assume "the ones to fear", you should assume a grizzly. This is *exactly* the uneven assumptions I was talking about.

 

 

It isn’t a scientific experiment though.  It is just ‘what is your gut reaction’ type question. 

[Indigo Blue]

27 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Chad the avid hiker with vegan snacks.  

😂 That’s got to be the polar opposite of dangerous psychopaths lurking in the forest. 

[Indigo Blue]

I don’t think women who can be afraid of men In certain situations are anti men. 

[Catwoman]

11 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

I don’t think women who can be afraid of men In certain situations are anti men. 

Of course not. There are situations where women can and should be afraid of certain men, just as there are situations where women can and should be afraid of other women. I don't think anyone has said otherwise.

But @Scarlett specifically said:

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I think the point of the question is our immediate reaction.  And that is that we HAVE to assume the man is dangerous. 

Why do we "have to assume the man is dangerous," and yet, as @Meriwether pointed out, we should also apparently assume the bear is probably just an adorable black bear and not at all dangerous, instead of "having to assume" that the bear is a huge grizzly bear? Why does the bear get the benefit of the doubt that it's not a dangerous type of bear, but the man is automatically assumed to be a threat? That's just weird. 

And forgetting about the bear completely for a moment, why would anyone automatically assume that any one random man in the woods is definitely a danger to us? Why would we assume that at all?

If women and girls all "have to assume" that all men are dangerous, no woman or girl would ever hike, stroll, or jog alone in the woods. They would be too afraid. No parent would ever let their daughter play in the woods behind their house, because there might be a MAN there, and of course we should assume that every man is dangerous, right? Women would have to live in fear of men every day.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous, and it's also incredibly insulting to men, because according to the statistics that Katy posted earlier in the thread, only about 2% of men are actually dangerous. But even if that number is higher, the vast majority of men aren't lurking in the shadows (or the woods) waiting to attack girls and women.

So yeah, I'm sticking with my original answer -- I would rather leave my daughter in the woods with a man than with a bear, because the odds are overwhelmingly high that the man would be completely safe and I think he would probably also help my child if she needed it. (And I still think the initial TikTok question is idiotic, and that it was phrased specifically to make women start thinking about how incredibly dangerous men are. 🙄)

 

 

 

[Catwoman]

46 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

Decent men are far more common than dangerous men. If you are going to assume "the ones to fear", you should assume a grizzly. This is *exactly* the uneven assumptions I was talking about.

 

And your last sentence is nuts. Absolutely nuts. The men in my family do not act dangerous. That doesn't make them dangerous.

Exactly. 

There seems to be a lot of paranoia here when it comes to men, and I don't understand it. 

Why would I be afraid of some random guy in the woods if I was out for a walk? I mean, if he started acting really weird or menacing or something, obviously I would become wary of him, but I would also be wary of a random woman acting really weird or menacing in the woods, too. Because WEIRD and MENACING, not because it was someone I didn't already know and trust.

Hasn't anyone ever struck up a conversation with a man they didn't know, unless they were in a highly populated area? Are women really that afraid? I think that's really sad, and I feel sorry for those women, because it must be awful to live in daily fear of strangers, instead of assuming that the vast majority of people would never do anything to harm them.

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Meriwether said:

And your last sentence is nuts. Absolutely nuts. The men in my family do not act dangerous. That doesn't make them dangerous.

It’s absolutely not nuts if you know anything about serial killers. 

[Catwoman]

33 minutes ago, Katy said:

It’s absolutely not nuts if you know anything about serial killers. 

Wait. Now we’re assuming it’s a serial killer in the woods? Or is this just a more general reply to @Meriwether? Or are you saying that we need to be fearful of all men who don't seem dangerous because they might be serial killers?

I'm totally confused.

This thread is going off the rails.

Edited April 25 by Catwoman
General confusion

[Meriwether]

I didn't say that serial killers did not seem nice and approachable, but read your what you actually said. Being nice does not mean someone is bad.

[Meriwether]

I thought reading this thread that maybe people should watch less Criminal Minds. Then someone mentioned it. lol

[Heartstrings]

A man on Tik Tok has started a new one, geared at at men…

Men, you are at work, on night shift and your wife calls at 3 am because she heard a noise outside.  When she peaks around the curtain would you rather her see a bear on the back porch or a man?  

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

A man on Tik Tok has started a new one, geared at at men…

Men, you are at work, on night shift and your wife calls at 3 am because she heard a noise outside.  When she peaks around the curtain would you rather her see a bear on the back porch or a man?  

That's just idiotic.

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

That's just idiotic.

I don’t see how it’s more idiotic that bear in the woods that we’ve been talking about for 3 pages. 

[Catwoman]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

I don’t see how it’s more idiotic that bear in the woods that we’ve been talking about for 3 pages. 

I thought that was idiotic, too. 

Both TikToks are so blatantly obvious about what they are trying to make people believe. 

[Kuovonne]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

Hasn't anyone ever struck up a conversation with a man they didn't know, unless they were in a highly populated area?

I have NEVER struck up a casual conversation with a stranger (of any age/gender) when we were the only two people around. (Not counting situations where one of us was performing a job function, such as a night clerk.)

I have had casual conversations with unknown men, including on public transit. I take reasonable precautions during these conversations, and the fact that we were in well-lit, public places is part of those reasonable precautions. I don’t let gender stop me from enjoying the conversation.

[Kuovonne]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

at 3 am because she heard a noise outside.

It’s probably an Amazon delivery person getting a jump start on those 4am deliveries. Go back to sleep.

[Katy]

43 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Wait. Now we’re assuming it’s a serial killer in the woods? Or is this just a more general reply to @Meriwether? Or are you saying that we need to be fearful of all men who don't seem dangerous because they might be serial killers?

I'm totally confused.

This thread is going off the rails.

No, I’m not assuming anything. It was in response to a personal attack by @Meriwether That’s all. 

42 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

I didn't say that serial killers did not seem nice and approachable, but read your what you actually said. Being nice does not mean someone is bad.

Of course not. But a significant number of serial killers also seem not only nice and approachable, but like upstanding citizens to almost everyone who knows them. Seeming nice and approachable says absolutely nothing about whether they are actually safe and helpful to strangers. 

[Catwoman]

39 minutes ago, Katy said:

No, I’m not assuming anything. It was in response to a personal attack by @Meriwether That’s all. 

OK, I hadn't noticed any personal attacks, but thanks for clarifying! I thought I missed something somewhere.  🙂 

[SKL]

3 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Honestly if you say “picture running into a man in the woods” I’m picturing serial killers from Criminal Minds or a hunter of some sort, not Chad the avid hiker with vegan snacks. 

OK this is so extremely irrational that it borders on insane IMO.

A woman with this attitude is dangerous IMO.

Edited April 25 by SKL

[SKL]

It's also irrational to assume the most cute, adorable bear unless the original question specifies that.

Why would anyone ask that kind of question if they meant a totally harmless bear?

I mean why not ask "would you rather encounter a hungry tiger or a cute puppy?"

People are also getting a strange view of "woods," unless the tiktok specified that it was a dark, dangerous wood that no nice people would ever hike in.

Or maybe my many experiences of perfectly safe hiking in woods (and zero dangerous encounters with men in woods) is skewing my opinion the wrong way.

An actual predator (the human type) is going to go hunting in places where there is likely to be prey, and they are going to choose a certain type of prey, usually someone living on the margin, because such prey is least likely to be reported missing in a timely fashion.  (Kuz yes, I do know a few things about serial killers.)

[Catwoman]

33 minutes ago, SKL said:

OK this is so extremely irrational that it borders on insane IMO.

A woman with this attitude is dangerous IMO.

I'm also not sure why it would be so dangerous to meet a hunter in the woods... or why Chad the avid hiker with vegan snacks would seem safer than the hunter. Both are men, right? And both would seemingly have equally valid reasons for walking around in the woods. 

And the odds of meeting a serial killer in the woods (like in Criminal Minds) would be infinitesimally low. I'm not sure why a serial killer and a hunter would seem to inspire the same level of fear.

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, Kuovonne said:

I have NEVER struck up a casual conversation with a stranger (of any age/gender) when we were the only two people around. (Not counting situations where one of us was performing a job function, such as a night clerk.)

 

Okay. That's really surprising to me. I speak to everyone I meet while hiking - usually just a hello, but if we both happen to stop in the same place we will discuss the path, the weather, the view.

[pinball]

39 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I'm also not sure why it would be so dangerous to meet a hunter in the woods... or why Chad the avid hiker with vegan snacks would seem safer than the hunter. Both are men, right? And both would seemingly have equally valid reasons for walking around in the woods. 

And the odds of meeting a serial killer in the woods (like in Criminal Minds) would be infinitesimally low. I'm not sure why a serial killer and a hunter would seem to inspire the same level of fear.

Probably bc Chad has rejected the the violence of meat so he certainly couldn’t be violent to women.

🙄

[Meriwether]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

No, I’m not assuming anything. It was in response to a personal attack by @Meriwether That’s all. 

Of course not. But a significant number of serial killers also seem not only nice and approachable, but like upstanding citizens to almost everyone who knows them. Seeming nice and approachable says absolutely nothing about whether they are actually safe and helpful to strangers. 

Wow! I think this is the first time I've been accused of a personal attack. Maybe? Maybe I've just forgotten. I'm just chatting here. You said, "the most dangerous men are also the ones who act the least dangerous" which sets up a patently untrue equivalency.

[Heartstrings]

3 hours ago, Katy said:

No, I’m not assuming anything. It was in response to a personal attack by @Meriwether That’s all.

I’m getting plenty of those too.  Who knew acknowledging that most violent  behavior comes from men would be so triggering for so many?  🤷‍♀️   

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

I'm also not sure why it would be so dangerous to meet a hunter in the woods... or why Chad the avid hiker with vegan snacks would seem safer than the hunter. Both are men, right? And both would seemingly have equally valid reasons for walking around in the woods. 

And the odds of meeting a serial killer in the woods (like in Criminal Minds) would be infinitesimally low. I'm not sure why a serial killer and a hunter would seem to inspire the same level of fear.

Hunters carry guns, adding to the power differential.  

 

2 hours ago, SKL said:

s also irrational to assume the most cute, adorable bear unless the original question specifies that.

Why would anyone ask that kind of question if they meant a totally harmless bear?

I mean why not ask "would you rather encounter a hungry tiger or a cute puppy?"

People are also getting a strange view of "woods," unless the tiktok specified that it was a dark, dangerous wood that no nice people would ever hike in.

If I tell you to picture a tree and you think of a palm tree, are you wrong? That’s would be absurd wouldn’t it?  
 

So is telling people that the bear or a forest that first comes to their mind are wrong.  

[Catwoman]

14 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I’m getting plenty of those too.  Who knew acknowledging that most violent  behavior comes from men would be so triggering for so many?  🤷‍♀️   

It seems more like you are the one being triggered because not everyone agrees with you.

[pinball]

4 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Hasn't anyone ever struck up a conversation with a man they didn't know, unless

You seem like the type that has never met a stranger (that’s a compliment, BTW. Seems that people are mistaking basic conversational conventions as attacks).

I like to talk to random people, too. 

[Kuovonne]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

 

3 hours ago, Kuovonne said:

I have NEVER struck up a casual conversation with a stranger (of any age/gender) when we were the only two people around. (Not counting situations where one of us was performing a job function, such as a night clerk.)

 

Expand  

Okay. That's really surprising to me.

 

Well, I’m almost never in a situation where there is exactly one other human around and that person is a stranger. I don’t go hiking by myself because I do not enjoy hiking. My hobbies have never included solitary activities in sparsely occupied, public places. I’m also an introvert.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

Hunters carry guns, adding to the power differential.  

Depending on which state you live in, you probably shouldn’t go out in the woods at all if you’re scared of anyone with a gun, because a lot of people carry guns with them all the time, so you shouldn’t assume that Chad the vegan hiker doesn’t have a gun on him, too. 

 

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

It seems more like you are the one being triggered because not everyone agrees with you.

I haven’t told one person that the bear or forest they pictured were wrong 🙄, that basic recommended safety precautions were insane or unhinged, or that they were ridiculous.  Pretty much every post I’ve made has been met with that sort thing.  

[Katy]

44 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

Wow! I think this is the first time I've been accused of a personal attack. Maybe? Maybe I've just forgotten. I'm just chatting here. You said, "the most dangerous men are also the ones who act the least dangerous" which sets up a patently untrue equivalency.

Your response wasn’t to the logic. Your response was that my line of thought regarding criminals was crazy. That’s also an untrue equivalency.

I grew up the child of first a cop, then police chief in North Florida. My first series of nightmares happened after Ted Bundy kidnapped a girl from an elementary school not far from my own. That might not have been the start of drilling stranger danger into my whole generation, but it was definitely the start of my parents warning me. 

Not many years after that the Gainesville serial killer started killing young women not far from me. We had to change plans repeatedly to not go near there. 

Unfortunately more than one police officer in my family ended up in a shootout with someone who annihilated their families in South Florida and drove North to escape. Unfortunately one of them was killed. 

So yeah, I realize that not everyone has their childhood shaped by multiple murderers. But mine was. It doesn’t make me afraid, but it possible I’m more aware of the dark side of life than you are. That doesn’t make me crazy. It doesn’t make my working knowledge of how serial killers or family annihilators act illogical. It’s probably true that you just have less knowledge in this area. 

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

Your response wasn’t to the logic. Your response was that my line of thought regarding criminals was crazy. That’s also an untrue equivalency.

I grew up the child of first a cop, then police chief in North Florida. My first series of nightmares happened after Ted Bundy kidnapped a girl from an elementary school not far from my own. That might not have been the start of drilling stranger danger into my whole generation, but it was definitely the start of my parents warning me. 

Not many years after that the Gainesville serial killer started killing young women not far from me. We had to change plans repeatedly to not go near there. 

Unfortunately more than one police officer in my family ended up in a shootout with someone who annihilated their families in South Florida and drove North to escape. Unfortunately one of them was killed. 

So yeah, I realize that not everyone has their childhood shaped by multiple murderers. But mine was. It doesn’t make me afraid, but it possible I’m more aware of the dark side of life than you are. That doesn’t make me crazy. It doesn’t make my working knowledge of how serial killers or family annihilators act illogical. It’s probably true that you just have less knowledge in this area. 

I’m very sorry to hear that one of your family members was killed in the line of duty. That’s just awful. 😢 

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

It doesn’t make me afraid, but it possible I’m more aware of the dark side of life than you are

You shouldn’t have to air all of that, or any of it, to be treated with basic respect or have your opinion taken seriously.  

[Rosie_0801]

A woman was killed by a man in the woods in the town my daughter lives in just the other week.

 

We all know some men kill and some bears kill.
We all know not all men kill and not all bears kill.
We all know some women kill and not all women kill.

I assume we all agree that we won't necessarily know which is which soon enough to avoid being killed.

 

Now, is there a reason to leave this thread open?

[Indigo Blue]

Chad the avid hiker with vegan snacks probably has a gun, if he is hiking in the wilderness. He most likely feels it’s prudent in that situation. 🫒🍿🍟 (vegan snacks. Hmmm…..not sure about the fries. Could be fried in beef tallow. Just pretend the popcorn is air-popped). 😐
 

Overall, and generally speaking, it is not entirely safe for anyone to be walking in the woods alone or alone at night in a parking lot, especially women. We do it, but it’s not entirely safe. Men are larger and stronger (that is just a fact)and most assaults are men attacking women, not the other way around. This is why there are self defense classes for women and we don’t want our daughters to walk alone at night across campus. I honestly thought it was a generally acceptable and common sense approach. 
 

I think the question is silly TBH, but it’s just one of those silly, thought provoking questions and there really isn’t a “wrong” answer. 🤷‍♀️ If someone doesn’t feel afraid with a random man, ok. Also, if you are, you probably have good reasons because of your lived experiences. 

[Kuovonne]

32 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

We all know some men kill and some bears kill.
We all know not all men kill and not all bears kill.
We all know some women kill and not all women kill.

I assume we all agree that we won't necessarily know which is which soon enough to avoid being killed.

 

We also know that a bear will NOT be helpful and should NOT ever be considered friendly.

We also know that some men are both helpful and friendly.

Being assaulted by either a bear or man would be horrible. But why is the existence of the possibility of being attacked the only factor? 

[Katy]

3 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

You shouldn’t have to air all of that, or any of it, to be treated with basic respect or have your opinion taken seriously.  

I appreciate that. But I can also recognize that as much as she wanted to give the appearance of logic, it was an emotional response. Of course the men in her own life aren’t dangerous. And of course she felt a visceral response to something she didn’t understand. I didn’t have to take the bait. 

[Rosie_0801]

4 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

We also know that a bear will NOT be helpful and should NOT ever be considered friendly.

We also know that some men are both helpful and friendly.

Being assaulted by either a bear or man would be horrible. But why is the existence of the possibility of being attacked the only factor? 

Are you scolding me for not caring enough for imaginary men?

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Are you scolding me for not caring enough for imaginary men?

I'm here for the imaginary bears at this point. 😉 

[Catwoman]

14 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

We also know that a bear will NOT be helpful and should NOT ever be considered friendly.

We also know that some men are both helpful and friendly.

Being assaulted by either a bear or man would be horrible. But why is the existence of the possibility of being attacked the only factor? 

This is true.

There's a pretty good possibility that you wouldn't be attacked by either the man or the bear unless you acted like a complete moron, in which case the bear might lose patience with your nonsense and decide to teach you a valuable lesson about not poking bears. 😉 

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, Catwoman said:

I'm here for the imaginary bears at this point. 😉 

They're the only kind of bears we have here, so I'm not being brave when I say I'm not scared of them at all. 😛

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

They're the only kind of bears we have here, so I'm not being brave when I say I'm not scared of them at all. 😛

🤣  I'm sure that in your country, there are a lot of creatures that are a lot scarier than the bears we get in our yard!

[Heartstrings]

30 minutes ago, Katy said:

I appreciate that. But I can also recognize that as much as she wanted to give the appearance of logic, it was an emotional response. Of course the men in her own life aren’t dangerous. And of course she felt a visceral response to something she didn’t understand. I didn’t have to take the bait. 

We shouldn’t have to lay bare our trauma to be treated decently or have our opinions respected. 
 

We shouldn’t have to play a game of comparing traumas and whoever has the biggest pile wins the right to have an opinion.  There shouldn’t be a litmus test of “your trauma pile must be THIS tall” to have an opinion.  Plenty of us have trauma piles that we just don’t feel the need to push out in front of us, here look at my pile, I get an opinion.  
 

You should have been allowed your opinion without needing to “prove” that you deserved one.  

Edited April 26 by Heartstrings