Question about diversity/inclusion language

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

I said I reserve the right to hold my own boundaries - not that I would go around shoving that in people's faces. I've explicitly said this a few times now so the implication is getting annoying.

In a situation comparable to yours I probably would just say something like, "sorry, how may I help you."

Can you imagine a scenario where two people with genuine goodwill and differing strong convictions can respect one another?

Exactly.  Having lived a non mainstream life, I can tell you it is very possible.  I have very fond, long term relationships with people who do not share my beliefs.  

[LMD]

57 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Maybe b/c I am HR adjacent? No one is POO-POOING workplace abuse here.

I didn't think you would ignore workplace abuse. You seem predisposed to want to fight for justice.

I just think we have very different ideas of what does and does not constitute workplace abuse. When people are super quick to call *possible* non use of preferred pronouns as abusive, but examples of males behaving sexually inappropriately in the workplace is completely brushed off if they claim a protected class status, well then I think that's a blind spot.

Edited August 10, 2023 by LMD

[LMD]

46 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

We have gender non-specific guidelines that would still result in employee counseling, the size of your breasts or HOW you cover them not being one of them. My colleagues and I wear KNEE-LENGTH dresses without issues, CALF-LENGTH pants without issues, and blazers/suits for more formal occasions. \Maybe you haven't been in the workplace for a minute but most people get the memo just by looking around.

Yeah most people do. Women certainly do. Some males who claim a trans identity - the examples I gave are from real life, verifiable sources - don't seem to.

Eta - hence my asking about a clash of protected classes. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by LMD

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, LMD said:

I didn't think you would ignore workplace abuse. You seem predisposed to want to fight for justice.

I just think we have very different ideas of what does and does not constitute workplace abuse. When people are super quick to call *possible* non use of preferred pronouns as abusive, but examples of males behaving sexually inappropriately in the workplace is completely brushed off if they claim a protected class status, well then I think that's a blind spot.

Thanks for that. I don't think males behaving inappropriately in the workplace is something I'd approve of but never say never. I've seen some things. Life is messy.

[LMD]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Thanks for that. I don't think males behaving inappropriately in the workplace is something I'd approve of but never say never. I've seen some things. Life is messy.

Amen to that

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Thanks for that. I don't think males behaving inappropriately in the workplace is something I'd approve of but never say never. I've seen some things. Life is messy.

 

Just now, LMD said:

Amen to that

Agree!  I often found an offset….. I had extreme protection by other men toward me, a young vulnerable woman.

[Heartstrings]

47 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This doesn't make any sense at all when you think about it. Women should be able to have any haircut and style of dress that they choose. This is COMPLETELY antithetical to that and blaming the victim.

I said at the time.  I was 16. 😜  

[Danae]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Protected as in for hiring and firing.  I don’t think there is anything about other employees failing to use the preferred pronoun.  

The Ask a Manager blog had a question about this in 2020.  Their answer:  not calling a coworker by the name and pronouns they prefer is harassment based on a protect category and can be a fireable offense.  

[Scarlett]

Just now, Danae said:

The Ask a Manager blog had a question about this in 2020.  Their answer:  not calling a coworker by the name and pronouns they prefer is harassment based on a protect category and can be a fireable offense.  

SMH.  I am positive I would not fit in there for a myriad of reasons.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I said at the time.  I was 16. 😜  

So was I. I had no idea what I didn't know. I try hard not to make the same mistake twice or encourage others to do what I did but to learn from my mistakes. Live longer, learn more, do better.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Heartstrings]

48 minutes ago, LMD said:

I said I reserve the right to hold my own boundaries - not that I would go around shoving that in people's faces. I've explicitly said this a few times now so the implication is getting annoying.

In a situation comparable to yours I probably would just say something like, "sorry, how may I help you."

Can you imagine a scenario where two people with genuine goodwill and differing strong convictions can respect one another?

Outside of a brief encounter, honestly, no. I honestly cannot imagine a scenario where a person of good will who has decided that for their own conscious they will not use a trans persons new name or acknowledge their identity actually goes about that.  My understanding from you and Melissa and whoever else is that you are saying that you will not participate in what you perceive to be lie, you will not use pronouns or new names. I really can't see how that goes in regular interaction.   I'm not being a brat, I just honestly can't figure out how it goes.

Say at homeschool park day one of the parents is trans.  Say they don't pass even remotely so its very obvious.  How do you in genuine goodwill interact with that person? How does holding that boundary look in practice.    When they introduce themselves as Janet, how do you respond while holding that particular boundary. 

I'm from the south were being polite is of the utmost importance.  Manners and being polite are all about making the other people around you comfortable, not just about strict adherence to "the rules".  If you tell Ms. Beth next door that your name is Kristy and she calls you Carla, you answer to Carla when Ms. Beth calls you because its polite.  There are whole sitcom episodes about not being able to correct people that have your name wrong because its too awkward.  I can't square these two things with you holding a boundary that says you must call this trans person by their birth identity.   I am genuinely curious. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Heartstrings]

15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

So was I. I had no idea what I didn't know. I try hard not to make the same mistake twice or encourage others to do what I did but to learn from my mistakes. Live longer, learn more, do better.

I do think people should be gracious about innocent mistakes, but I also fully understand being cranky.  I'm often cranky.  Too often. 

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I do think people should be gracious about innocent mistakes, but I also fully understand being cranky.  I'm often cranky.  Too often. 

It's been a LOOONG month and will get longer (DH is flying out as soon as we drop DD off). Thank you Sen. Tuberville! Love Republicans, really, y'all are great military champions, wonderful, lovely, so thoughtful and respectful. *snark off*

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Outside of a brief encounter, honestly, no. I honestly cannot imagine a scenario where a person of good will who has decided that for their own conscious they will not use a trans persons new name or acknowledge their identity actually goes about that.  My understanding from you and Melissa and whoever else is that you are saying that you will not participate in what you perceive to be lie, you will not use pronouns or new names. I really can't see how that goes in regular interaction.   I'm not being a brat, I just honestly can't figure out how it goes.

Say at homeschool park day one of the parents is trans.  Say they don't pass even remotely so its very obvious.  How do you in genuine goodwill interact with that person? How does holding that boundary look in practice.  

I'm from the south were being polite is of the utmost importance.  Manners and being polite are all about making the other people around you comfortable, not just about strict adherence to "the rules".  If you tell Ms. Beth next door that your name is Kristy and she calls you Carla, you answer to Carla when Ms. Beth calls you because its polite.  There are whole sitcom episodes about not being able to correct people that have your name wrong because its too awkward.  I can't square these two things with you holding a boundary that says you must call this trans person by their birth identity.   I am genuinely curious. 

I did NOT say I would not use a new name. I regularly do.

I reserve the right NOT to participate in giving MY pronouns in the workplace. 

In the workplace, I would follow my instructions. They might include calling a man 'she'. 

It is coerced, sure.

I don't believe what I'm saying.

But I have bills.

People who coerce my speech lose any respect I may have had for them. So there's that. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I did NOT say I would not use a new name. I regularly do.

I reserve the right NOT to participate in giving MY pronouns in the workplace. 

In the workplace, I would follow my instructions. They might include calling a man 'she'. 

It is coerced, sure.

I don't believe what I'm saying.

But I have bills.

People who coerce my speech lose any respect I may have had for them. So there's that. 

Thank you for acknowledging that the workplace is not the place to fight culture wars. That was the ENTIRE point of the thread/OP. No one cares if you lose respect. They care about what you do *at work*.

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Oh and not to mention, explain how I would report that the owner of the company often undressed me with his eyes.  

Get a lawyer and figure out what you need to do to sue him. That's how you would report him.

53 minutes ago, LMD said:

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

We have gender non-specific guidelines that would still result in employee counseling, the size of your breasts or HOW you cover them not being one of them. My colleagues and I wear KNEE-LENGTH dresses without issues, CALF-LENGTH pants without issues, and blazers/suits for more formal occasions. \Maybe you haven't been in the workplace for a minute but most people get the memo just by looking around.

Yeah most people do. Women certainly do. Some males who claim a trans identity - the examples I gave are from real life, verifiable sources - don't seem to.

Not everyone at my previous places of work get the memo by just looking around. Those companies just put out blanket dress code applied to all workers. For example, you must wear a shirt while in the office space, skirts and pants must be knee length or longer (this was partially for safety, not for modesty actually), etc. I mean we were also not allowed to wear clothing emblazoned with a competitor's logo (that's just plain company interests). 

 

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I see. Highly unlikely this will ever occur in my life.  Or occur in the life of a great many people.  

Conversations that include more than two people? Where one person refers to another human present in 3rd person? Happens all the time in class discussions and meetings in my work. 

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Get a lawyer and figure out what you need to do to sue him. That's how you would report him.

Not everyone at my previous places of work get the memo by just looking around. Those companies just put out blanket dress code applied to all workers. For example, you must wear a shirt while in the office space, skirts and pants must be knee length or longer (this was partially for safety, not for modesty actually), etc. I mean we were also not allowed to wear clothing emblazoned with a competitor's logo (that's just plain company interests). 

 

That is something  I would never do.  I would have quit first. 

[LMD]

4 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Outside of a brief encounter, honestly, no. I honestly cannot imagine a scenario where a person of good will who has decided that for their own conscious they will not use a trans persons new name or acknowledge their identity actually goes about that.  My understanding from you and Melissa and whoever else is that you are saying that you will not participate in what you perceive to be lie, you will not use pronouns or new names. I really can't see how that goes in regular interaction.   I'm not being a brat, I just honestly can't figure out how it goes.

Say at homeschool park day one of the parents is trans.  Say they don't pass even remotely so its very obvious.  How do you in genuine goodwill interact with that person? How does holding that boundary look in practice.  

I'm from the south were being polite is of the utmost importance.  Manners and being polite are all about making the other people around you comfortable, not just about strict adherence to "the rules".  If you tell Ms. Beth next door that your name is Kristy and she calls you Carla, you answer to Carla when Ms. Beth calls you because its polite.  There are whole sitcom episodes about not being able to correct people that have your name wrong because its too awkward.  I can't square these two things with you holding a boundary that says you must call this trans person by their birth identity.   I am genuinely curious. 

You keep misstating my position. I don't believe I said I wouldn't use a new name, generally I don't have a problem with that.

It works if both sides assume goodwill. Chat and engage them like any other person. They see that I am kind and welcoming. We make small talk about our children. I probably would avoid gendered pronouns. They would probably notice but, I would hope, realise by my actions that I don't hate them, I'm not treating them any differently. Honestly most of my interactions go like that. If they bring it up I'll say something like 'thank you for telling me, you are welcome here, I hope you understand that I will do my best to use language that we can both be okay with.' Some version of that has worked with a variety of issues, including with colleagues. I don't see why trans people should be a special class of human that I can't be kindly honest with? I just don't see debate and disagreement as hate but I'm starting to think I'm in the minority on that.

[Heartstrings]

21 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I did NOT say I would not use a new name. I regularly do.

I reserve the right NOT to participate in giving MY pronouns in the workplace. 

In the workplace, I would follow my instructions. They might include calling a man 'she'. 

It is coerced, sure.

I don't believe what I'm saying.

But I have bills.

People who coerce my speech lose any respect I may have had for them. So there's that. 

 

 

 

 

 

That was very clear.  Thank you.  

[maize]

Those of you who believe it is completely moral and ethical to compel a person to lie by referring to males as females and vice versa, do you hold the same standard for other lies?

I've actually faced that dilemma at work--been instructed by a direct supervisor to lie. I was a brand-new lieutenant in the Air Force, and military culture has a strong "do what you are told" element.

Honesty and integrity are important to me. I refused to lie. My supervisor was not happy. I was confident in the ethics of my decision, but it certainly wasn't the easy path.

[LMD]

1 hour ago, SHP said:

If it is in violation of the dress code then should be addressed as such. 

 

Giant fake boobs were, at one point, in style. I try not to judge, though on hot August afternoons I tend to slip up and wonder aloud what someone is thinking because it is too hot out. 

 

Really? When were giant fake boobs in style for professional women, like teachers, who wanted to be taken seriously in their work? Did they also wear short, skin tight, bike shorts?

Come on.

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, maize said:

Those of you who believe it is completely moral and ethical to compel a person to lie by referring to males as females and vice versa, do you hold the same standard for other lies?

A lot of things some people might think of as lies are just conversational habits. People obviously have different tolerances for those.

[PronghornD]

4 minutes ago, maize said:

Those of you who believe it is completely moral and ethical to compel a person to lie by referring to males as females and vice versa, do you hold the same standard for other lies?

I've actually faced that dilemma at work--been instructed by a direct supervisor to lie. I was a brand-new lieutenant in the Air Force, and military culture has a strong "do what you are told" element.

Honesty and integrity are important to me. I refused to lie. My supervisor was not happy. I was confident in the ethics of my decision, but it certainly wasn't the easy path.

Obviously, we don't consider it a lie, even if you do. Could you think of it as a "social fake"? I think that term is used to help some people gain tolerance of some level of social insincerity to smooth things over.

I think most other workplace lying is decided by most on a case-by-case basis. If you get stuck in a job that requires significant lying, you probably end up getting a different job as soon as possible.

[maize]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

A lot of things some people might think of as lies are just conversational habits. People obviously have different tolerances for those.

The thing with integrity is it is inherently subjective. If a person perceives something to be dishonest, it IS dishonest to them regardless of whether others think it matters or not.

Compelling a person to go against their own conscience seems to me like a pretty egregious and abusive practice, not a thing to be brushed off as insignificant 

[SHP]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

Really? When were giant fake boobs in style for professional women, like teachers, who wanted to be taken seriously in their work? Did they also wear short, skin tight, bike shorts?

Come on.

I must be old because I remember bigger = better. I did a Google search and found a lot of information about the history of breast augmentation and size. It was fascinating. Not sure if I can share those or not.

And I recall the tight biker shorts. 

I will agree with the view that some fashion trends should stay in the past. 

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, maize said:

Compelling a person to go against their own conscience seems to me like a pretty egregious and abusive practice, not a thing to be brushed off as insignificant 

And that's why philosophy hasn't gone out of fashion yet.

[Sneezyone]

Personally, I don’t find it a lie to call someone by their name or preferred pronouns. It doesn’t violate my conscience to respect other people’s preferences or naming conventions. If you wanna call your child, Apple, I’m going to call your child Apple. If you want to name your child Abcde, I’m going to call your child ABCDE. Why? I have respect for your choices, even if I disagree with them.  If you truly feel that your conscience is violated by calling someone what they prefer to be called, then stay out of the broader workforce. You can stay home with your kids, or work for yourself, or freelance for whomever wants to hire you. Those are all valid options

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

And that's why philosophy hasn't gone out of fashion yet.

Not out of fashion, just mercilessly mocked as impractical.

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

Obviously, we don't consider it a lie, even if you do. Could you think of it as a "social fake"? I think that term is used to help some people gain tolerance of some level of social insincerity to smooth things over.

I think most other workplace lying is decided by most on a case-by-case basis. If you get stuck in a job that requires significant lying, you probably end up getting a different job as soon as possible.

But we are right back to asking why one person has to fake their reality while another does not.  Seems it would be better to allow each to have their own reality and to co exist with out coercion.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But we are right back to asking why one person has to fake their reality while another does not.  Seems it would be better to allow each to have their own reality and to co exist with out coercion.

I’ve had to fake tolerance for racism and bigotry every day of my life. GET IN LINE. Most of us need pay/work. Folks don’t coexist with this dissonance. They work themselves into an early grave, or rage silently, or otherwise/obviously lash out.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[LMD]

5 minutes ago, SHP said:

I must be old because I remember bigger = better. I did a Google search and found a lot of information about the history of breast augmentation and size. It was fascinating. Not sure if I can share those or not.

And I recall the tight biker shorts. 

I will agree with the view that some fashion trends should stay in the past. 

Yeah, I don't believe that fake - as in a plastic bust over the skin - z cup breasts and skin tight biker shorts was ever a standard look for female teachers.

[Heartstrings]

21 minutes ago, LMD said:

You keep misstating my position. I don't believe I said I wouldn't use a new name, generally I don't have a problem with that.

It works if both sides assume goodwill. Chat and engage them like any other person. They see that I am kind and welcoming. We make small talk about our children. I probably would avoid gendered pronouns. They would probably notice but, I would hope, realise by my actions that I don't hate them, I'm not treating them any differently. Honestly most of my interactions go like that. If they bring it up I'll say something like 'thank you for telling me, you are welcome here, I hope you understand that I will do my best to use language that we can both be okay with.' Some version of that has worked with a variety of issues, including with colleagues. I don't see why trans people should be a special class of human that I can't be kindly honest with? I just don't see debate and disagreement as hate but I'm starting to think I'm in the minority on that.

That’s much nicer than I originally would have thought. I told you I really just couldn’t imagine a polite interaction around this topic.  

[Rosie_0801]

11 minutes ago, maize said:

Compelling a person to go against their own conscience seems to me like a pretty egregious and abusive practice, not a thing to be brushed off as insignificant 

As someone who is irreparably broken from stuff like this, I certainly don't think it is insignificant.

But it makes it important to me to draw distinctions between inconvenience, irritation, hurt feelings and damage. 

[PronghornD]

I think the word "lie" includes in its definition an intent to deceive. Politely using someone's preferred name (you could think if it as a nickname, if that helps) and their pronouns is not done with an intent to deceive. It is generally not a way to describe reality either. It is just a way to facilitate communication.

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by PronghornD

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I’ve had to fake tolerance for racism and bigotry every day of my life. GET IN LINE. Most of us need pay/work. Folks don’t coexist with this dissonance. They work themselves into an early grave, or rage silently, or otherwise/obviously lash out. I’m sorry, not sorry, you are experiencing discomfort. You are not alone, you are not the first and you will not be the last.

 

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I’ve had to fake tolerance for racism and bigotry every day of my life. GET IN LINE. Most of us need pay/work. Folks don’t coexist with this dissonance. They work themselves into an early grave, or rage silently, or otherwise/obviously lash out.

Ok, are we back to what we have all endured?   I have been in the line. I am at peace with it.  You don’t seem to be.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ok, are we back to what we have all endured?   I have been in the line. I am at peace with it.  You don’t seem to be.

Scarlet, bless you, I am so happy that you have been able to reconcile your various identities and be comfortable with your lot in life. I am so happy, that your pain and traumas have ceased. Mine are ongoing, you may not know that, but my life, as a black woman, never ends and never gets better. And, the trials and tribulations and risks that my children face when they leave my home and go out into the world as adults, also, do not end. Your insistence on equating your various experiences as a religious minority in the United States do not compare, at all, to what me and my family are experiencing…not now and not ever.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SHP]

6 minutes ago, maize said:

The thing with integrity is it is inherently subjective. If a person perceives something to be dishonest, it IS dishonest to them regardless of whether others think it matters or not.

Compelling a person to go against their own conscience seems to me like a pretty egregious and abusive practice, not a thing to be brushed off as insignificant 

Leaving aside pronouns. Are they going against their own conscience by respecting someone enough to use a name they request? 

Nicknames

Informal address

Maiden vs married names 

If you (not you single) refuse to call someone you think is female "John" because you think they are trans and them being trans is against your code why does your code trump theirs? 

What if they never say they are trans? Is it OK then?

What if John is their legal name?

What if they took the name of beloved family member? 

Do they have to justify their use of their name?

What is the line?

 

 

[Heartstrings]

21 minutes ago, maize said:

 

Those of you who believe it is completely moral and ethical to compel a person to lie by referring to males as females and vice versa, do you hold the same standard for other lies?

 

I don’t view it as a lie.  It’s “above my pay grade” and “not my problem”.  The philosophical debate around what makes gender etc. is above my head and not my problem. My responsibility is to be kind and polite.  Because it costs me nothing.   It’s not really something I feel compelled in doing, other than the self compulsion to be kind. I don’t really ascribe to “being cruel to be kind” so telling them they are wrong or whatever isn’t on me.  They have therapists, parents, doctors, all of that is covered.  I will be kind to the human in front of me, because that is my choice.     

[Scarlett]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Scarlet, bless you, I am so happy that you have been able to reconcile your various identities and be comfortable with your a lot in life. I am so happy, that your pain and traumas have ceased. Mine are ongoing, you may not know that, but my life, as a black woman never ends. And, the trials and tribulations and risks that my children face when they leave my home and go out into the world as adults also do not end. Your insistence on equating your various experiences as a religious minorities in the United States do not compare, at all, to what me and my family are experiencing not now not ever.

Probably.  Maybe.  I am not sure and have no way to measure it.  I have never been you and you have never been me. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Probably.  Maybe.  I am not sure and have no way to measure it.  I have never been you and you have never been me. 

No, but the reality is that I have had to be more familiar with your experiences and your life, and your reality than you have with mine. As a matter of course. As a matter of survival. As a matter of functioning, and succeeding, in this world. It’s very easy to be blasé about my experiences, and whether or not they are as meaningful as your own because you don’t *need* to be any more curious or thoughtful. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Scarlett]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

No, but the reality is that I have had to be more familiar with your experiences and your life, and your reality then you have with mine. As a matter of course. As a matter of survival. As a matter of functioning, and succeeding, in this world.

Probably.  I am not denying your experience and reality as a black woman in America.  
 

I doubt you have the full concept of what it is like to be me though. 

No one knows what it is like to walk in another’s shoes. 

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Probably.  I am not denying your experience and reality as a black woman in America.  
 

I doubt you have the full concept of what it is like to be me though. 

No one knows what it is like to walk in another’s shoes. 

No, I don’t know what it’s like to be you. But I do know what it’s like to be me. And I know that I have a variety of burdens that other people on this forum cannot fathom, cause they don’t know and don’t want to. And that’s OK, I don’t wish to discuss them openly or amongst people who will use them against me. It is what it is. And it’s not sunshine and roses because my husband and I have managed to make a decent living out of the shit we’ve been dealt. But, no, hating the continued use of a childhood nickname is the same  as misgendering an adult employee. I’m off to bed. Too annoyed. Be well.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[maize]

10 minutes ago, SHP said:

Leaving aside pronouns. Are they going against their own conscience by respecting someone enough to use a name they request? 

Nicknames

Informal address

Maiden vs married names 

If you (not you single) refuse to call someone you think is female "John" because you think they are trans and them being trans is against your code why does your code trump theirs? 

What if they never say they are trans? Is it OK then?

What if John is their legal name?

What if they took the name of beloved family member? 

Do they have to justify their use of their name?

What is the line?

 

 

To me what feels dishonest is referring to a man as a woman or a woman as a man. A he as a she or a she as a he. A daughter as a son or a brother as a sister. 

Those are explicit untruths

I'm OK with they, they is not a lie--it just doesn't designate sex, as "you" or "I" does not.

I don't care about names,  names aren't inherently male or female. 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by maize

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, SHP said:

Leaving aside pronouns. Are they going against their own conscience by respecting someone enough to use a name they request? 

Nicknames

Informal address

Maiden vs married names 

If you (not you single) refuse to call someone you think is female "John" because you think they are trans and them being trans is against your code why does your code trump theirs? 

What if they never say they are trans? Is it OK then?

What if John is their legal name?

What if they took the name of beloved family member? 

Do they have to justify their use of their name?

What is the line?

 

 

No one commented on my post from earlier about my name/nicknames.  I think it is a semi fair comparison.  I don’t flinch when I am called by my nick name even though I decided 46 years ago to go by my first name. I certainly don’t berate, or chastise or threaten them with HR.  
 

I want to be called a female and someone calls me male……so what.  
 

Also, because I see this from several sides…if I am asked to use gender neutral pronouns..ok, so what.  If I can remember.  And if I can’t ok, so give grace especially if I have known you since birth. 

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No, I don’t know what it’s like to be you. But I do know what it’s like to be me. And I know that I have a variety of burdens that other people on this forum cannot fathom, cause they don’t know. And that’s OK, I don’t wish to discuss them openly or amongst people who will use them against me. But it is what it is. And it’s not sunshine and roses because my husband and I have managed to make a decent living out of the shit we’ve been dealt.

Without diminishing  your real experience of living with racism, I think that is probably true for most of us…..with the exception maybe of the housewives of NY or NJ who dwell among us. 

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I want to be called a female and someone calls me male……so what.  

Not everyone is as robust as you. 

 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Without diminishing  your real experience of living with racism, I think that is probably true for most of us…..with the exception maybe of the housewives of NY or NJ who dwell among us. 

And, yet, it’s diminishing all the same. Names don’t put your life at risk. Racism does.

[Melissa Louise]

21 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

As someone who is irreparably broken from stuff like this, I certainly don't think it is insignificant.

But it makes it important to me to draw distinctions between inconvenience, irritation, hurt feelings and damage. 

If it was an inconvenience or an irritation, I wouldn't be speaking about it. Plenty of those to suck up and deal with in the workplace

It also doesn't 'hurt my feelings'. 

More, those who feel they have a right to coerce my speech, regardless of my actions (which would be collegial at best, professional at worst) are a bright red flag to me. 

If it wasn't a psychological violation, why would I have a problem with it? For fun? I don't think so.