Question about diversity/inclusion language

[Danae]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Someone used the 'is it trans or is it PCOS' in this thread. 

Someone used it in the drag thread too.

It's very offensive. Having PCOS does not remove or call into question someone's femaleness.

Being male, otoh, well...I mean, logic, isn't it? 

My dd has PCOS. She is clearly female. Nobody confuses her for a man, or for a tw.

Pretty sure that’s referring to my post.  I did not equate the two, nor did I suggest that PCOS is on a spectrum with trans-ness.   My point was that fairly minor differences from “expected” gender presentation, like heavier than normal facial hair (which can be caused by PCOS or many other reasons) can cause some people to INAPPROPRIATELY speculate about whether someone is using the “correct” pronouns.  See also my long-haired boys mentioned earlier.  

[LMD]

Just now, Scarlett said:

What contempt? As always with this subject matter I am so lost. What the heck is going on? Can someone give me the cliff notes. In pm if that is better. 

I assume Sneezy is trying to get the thread locked.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

What contempt? As always with this subject matter I am so lost. What the heck is going on? Can someone give me the cliff notes. In pm if that is better. 

   Bless you.

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, LMD said:

I assume Sneezy is trying to get the thread locked.

No. I’m trying to stop the incessant trans=evil drumbeat that some people here keep pushing. It’s NOT nuanced or thoughtful or considerate. It’s hateful. It’s a minority within a minority population that’s unrepresented here and can’t speak for itself. It’s an easy target for scorn because so few have direct experience for themselves, not through others. The one trans parent we had stopped posting long ago. It’s being bullied left, right and center by folks who claim to mean well but do real harm in the process. It’s gross.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Sneezyone

[LMD]

Fwiw Danae, I wasn't talking about your post. I was talking about the numerous times/graphics that try to explain the sex 'spectrum' that place pcos as further along towards the male side of the spectrum than just female. Such as the scientific american one which lists irregular periods and low estrogen under 'intersex'

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by LMD

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No. I’m trying to stop the incessant trans=evil drumbeat that some people here keep pushing. It’s NOT nuanced or thoughtful or considerate. It’s hateful.

I haven’t seen hateful just a differing view than you. 

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

   Bless you.

This is almost hateful…. I know  that because I was raised up in the south. At the very least it is dismissive. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Scarlett said:

I haven’t seen hateful just a differing view than you. 

This is almost hateful…. I know  that because I was raised up in the south. At the very least it is dismissive. 

Yep, it’s dismissive, nicely. That should be enough but it’s not because you know better, yea?

[Terabith]

I am honestly confused about something:  why the heck do most people care so much about this topic?  

I mean, I get caring a lot if you or a child are trans or gender non conforming and are being impacted by the culture wars, but why on earth is this topic the center of the culture wars?  

They're just bodies.  Even if people make a mistake with their own bodies, why is it such a big deal?  Why do we care so much about this topic to make it the center of our politics and culture wars?

[LMD]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No. I’m trying to stop the incessant trans=evil drumbeat that some people here keep pushing. It’s NOT nuanced or thoughtful or considerate. It’s hateful. It’s a minority within a minority population that’s unrepresented here and can’t speak for itself. It’s an easy target for scorn because so few have direct experience. It’s being bullied left, right and center by folks who claim to mean well but do real harm in the process. It’s gross.

Where have I said trans = evil? Is asking for explanations of extraordinary claims 'bullying'? Just the 'vibe' again?

[Sneezyone]

Y’all do you. I said what I said and I believe what I believe about these threads. 

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Yep, it’s dismissive, nicely. That should be enough but it’s not because you know better, yea?

Why are you dismissing me? Do you think I am the  only person reading along who is confused? Or is this thread just meant to be a conversation for a few people? 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Scarlett

[Melissa Louise]

14 minutes ago, Danae said:

Pretty sure that’s referring to my post.  I did not equate the two, nor did I suggest that PCOS is on a spectrum with trans-ness.   My point was that fairly minor differences from “expected” gender presentation, like heavier than normal facial hair (which can be caused by PCOS or many other reasons) can cause some people to INAPPROPRIATELY speculate about whether someone is using the “correct” pronouns.  See also my long-haired boys mentioned earlier.  

PCOS is irrelevant to discussions of transness, HTH. 

Suggesting PCOS sufferers are being wildly misgendered at every turn is nonsense.

Women with PCOS look like women. 

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I am honestly confused about something:  why the heck do most people care so much about this topic?  

I mean, I get caring a lot if you or a child are trans or gender non conforming and are being impacted by the culture wars, but why on earth is this topic the center of the culture wars?  

They're just bodies.  Even if people make a mistake with their own bodies, why is it such a big deal?  Why do we care so much about this topic to make it the center of our politics and culture wars?

My sense is that people are upset that so many kids are being affected by this and it seems off…. Like why suddenly so many kids with GD?

[LMD]

Just now, Terabith said:

I am honestly confused about something:  why the heck do most people care so much about this topic?  

I mean, I get caring a lot if you or a child are trans or gender non conforming and are being impacted by the culture wars, but why on earth is this topic the center of the culture wars?  

They're just bodies.  Even if people make a mistake with their own bodies, why is it such a big deal?  Why do we care so much about this topic to make it the center of our politics and culture wars?

'Just bodies'? Really. Why did our grandmothers bother with all that feminism stuff.

I'm allowed to care about any topic and I don't owe you my sob story.

This is a board based around classical education. I won't apologise for pursuing truth or asking very reasonable questions. Multiple thousand percent rise in teen girls identfying out of their womanhood is something I care about. Detransitioners, I care about.

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I am honestly confused about something:  why the heck do most people care so much about this topic?  

I mean, I get caring a lot if you or a child are trans or gender non conforming and are being impacted by the culture wars, but why on earth is this topic the center of the culture wars?  

They're just bodies.  Even if people make a mistake with their own bodies, why is it such a big deal?  Why do we care so much about this topic to make it the center of our politics and culture wars?

1. Because caring got my kids through it.

2. I don't appreciate institutional gaslighting. 

3. I think it's a regressive social movement - homophobic and misogynistic a lot of the time. 

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Why are you dismissing me? Do you think I am the  only person reading along who is confused? Or is this thread just meant to be a conversation for a few people? 

No. I think if you’re missing the undercurrents/poisons these two posters are intent on injecting into the body politic, I can’t help you find them right now.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I am honestly confused about something:  why the heck do most people care so much about this topic?  

I mean, I get caring a lot if you or a child are trans or gender non conforming and are being impacted by the culture wars, but why on earth is this topic the center of the culture wars?  

They're just bodies.  Even if people make a mistake with their own bodies, why is it such a big deal?  Why do we care so much about this topic to make it the center of our politics and culture wars?

Precisely. I don’t think it’s most people tho. I think it’s a small subset who want to weaponize it.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Scarlett]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

No. I think if you’re missing the undercurrents/poisons these two posters are intent on injecting to the body politic, I can’t help you find them right now.

Ok maybe someone else can. 
 

I find you to be generally well informed , but people can’t hear what you are saying when you take that arrogant, hateful, dismissive tone.  It isn’t constructive at all. 

[Idalou]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

No. I think if you’re missing the undercurrents/poisons these two posters are intent on injecting into the body politic, I can’t help you find them right now.

The 'classic' thing is these 2 do this often on threads like this, lol. 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Precisely. I don’t think it’s most people tho. I think it’s a small subset who want to weaponize it.

To what end?

[LMD]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

No. I think if you’re missing the undercurrents/poisons these two posters are intent on injecting to the body politic, I can’t help you find them 

Poisons now? Far out sneezy your projection can be seen from space.

Please, I'm begging you, engage in good faith. Assuage my concerns. I'd love to be wrong. Honestly and sincerely. 

All I've gotten the last decade is 'it's evil to ask questions.' I've been on this board a long time, we all love our kids and try hard to be honest here. You keep insinuating I'm some political pot stirrer to avoid answering hard questions and that tactic doesn't work anymore.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Scarlett said:

To what end?

If I knew or had any inkling I would say. Hurt people hurt people tho. I’d start there.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Scarlett]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

If I knew I would say. Hurt people hurt people tho. I’d start there.

Who are they hurting? They have opinions that differ from you. On a message board.

[EKS]

12 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I am honestly confused about something:  why the heck do most people care so much about this topic?  

I mean, I get caring a lot if you or a child are trans or gender non conforming and are being impacted by the culture wars, but why on earth is this topic the center of the culture wars?  

They're just bodies.  Even if people make a mistake with their own bodies, why is it such a big deal?  Why do we care so much about this topic to make it the center of our politics and culture wars?

I see three main issues. 

There is the problem with how gender dysphoria is being dealt with in kids. 

There is the problem of female only spaces.

And then there is the problem of truth and reality.  

[Idalou]

14 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I am honestly confused about something:  why the heck do most people care so much about this topic?  

I mean, I get caring a lot if you or a child are trans or gender non conforming and are being impacted by the culture wars, but why on earth is this topic the center of the culture wars?  

They're just bodies.  Even if people make a mistake with their own bodies, why is it such a big deal?  Why do we care so much about this topic to make it the center of our politics and culture wars?

You really think certain political parties CARE about trans youth? They care about them as much as they care about pregnant women and their health, incandescent lightbulbs and gas appliances. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, EKS said:

I see three main issues. 

There is the problem with how gender dysphoria is being dealt with in kids. 

There is the problem of female only spaces.

And then there is the problem of truth and reality.  

None of which is being addressed in this thread.

[LMD]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

None of which is being addressed in this thread.

Truth and reality certainly are. Well, some of us are trying anyway 

[KSera]

17 minutes ago, Terabith said:

why the heck do most people care so much about this topic?  

I think there are multiple groups/reasons. There are people on both sides who have no direct connection but feel passionately about it for purely political reasons (but often don't really have accurate information about it, or even realize they're just following their "side"). They think they are righteous, but they are not. And then there are those who are directly impacted who care so much because it matters so much.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

None of which is being addressed in this thread.

This is delusional. 

I have addressed all three. 

[Danae]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

I see three main issues. 

There is the problem with how gender dysphoria is being dealt with in kids. 

There is the problem of female only spaces.

And then there is the problem of truth and reality.  

And #4 — Disingenuous people using the above as wedges to advance their cause of preserving hierarchical gender roles.  Which is why I think the issue is getting so much airtime in the US. Not on this thread, obviously (I hope obviously).  

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Who are they hurting? They have opinions that differ from you. On a message board.

Spoiler: no-one. 

No-one is being hurt hearing PCOS described as a female condition. 

It's all performative outrage, and a huge dose of longstanding personal animus. 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Spoiler: no-one. 

No-one is being hurt hearing PCOS described as a female condition. 

It's all performative outrage, and a huge dose of longstanding personal animus. 

 

 

I have no personal animus toward you, believe it or not, I just think you’re a sad person experiencing a lot of shitty things, and angry at the world. It is what it is.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Danae said:

And #4 — Disingenuous people using the above as wedges to advance their cause of preserving hierarchical gender roles.  Which is why I think the issue is getting so much airtime in the US. Not on this thread, obviously (I hope obviously).  

Conservative politicians and commentators do this, sure.

Pretty sure I am neither a conservative voter, not do I commentate in favour of hierarchical gender roles.

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I have no personal animus toward you, believe it or not, I just think you’re a sad person experiencing a lot of shitty things, and angry at the world. It is what it is.

Lol

[Melissa Louise]

Tbf, I probably wouldn't care as much if my kids hadn't been impacted, and I didn't have a heart for female DV and rape survivors, and female prisoners. 

Idgaf if people want to play with gender, I just want evidence based healthcare for minors, and same sex provision for vulnerable women. 

Ooh, the evil!

[Melissa Louise]

I think ppl would find that if they stopped all their performative outrage, most ppl agree on letting adults do whatever, keeping sex salient only where it needs to be, and taking care of kids.

Just quit the flipping insanity, would be good. 

[Danae]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Conservative politicians and commentators do this, sure.

Pretty sure I am neither a conservative voter, not do I commentate in favour of hierarchical gender roles.

Lol

I’m pretty sure you’re not either.  I’m also pretty sure you wouldn’t vote for someone who was a complete reactionary on gender issues just because s/he superficially agreed with you on trans topics.  
 

I wish I was that sure about more of the people who vote in this country.  

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Danae said:

I’m pretty sure you’re not either.  I’m also pretty sure you wouldn’t vote for someone who was a complete reactionary on gender issues just because s/he superficially agreed with you on trans topics.  
 

I wish I was that sure about more of the people who vote in this country. 

Haha, no, I grit my teeth and vote Green, mostly, and they are utterly batshit on this issue, to the point they'd expel me if I tried to join. 

I can see why there might be political reasons not to raise the issues but 1. I think silence creates ethical harm and 2. It's not politically savvy long term.

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

I mean, why allow yourselves to get wedged on things like men in female sport, or rapists in women's prisons?

 

[LMD]

4 minutes ago, Danae said:

I’m pretty sure you’re not either.  I’m also pretty sure you wouldn’t vote for someone who was a complete reactionary on gender issues just because s/he superficially agreed with you on trans topics.  
 

I wish I was that sure about more of the people who vote in this country.  

Okay, I do get this perspective, though I do think it's being used as a weapon to shut down any discussion.

What I don't get is how refusing to answer questions and insulting people who have been part of this education-centred community for a long time is helpful. 

I also don't owe anyone an explanation on my politics but I suppose it can be summed up as - they're all (with rare exceptions) selfish and out of touch fake people who make everything worse.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

Okay, I do get this perspective, though I do think it's being used as a weapon to shut down any discussion.

What I don't get is how refusing to answer questions and insulting people who have been part of this education-centred community for a long time is helpful. 

I also don't owe anyone an explanation on my politics but I suppose it can be summed up as - they're all (with rare exceptions) selfish and out of touch fake people who make everything worse.

I am getting a good dose of humble pie with our current lot - yep. In it for themselves. 

It doesn't really matter. The evidence for, child transition, say, remains low quality, regardless of whether Matt Walsh says it or not. 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I mean, why allow yourselves to get wedged on things like men in female sport, or rapists in women's prisons?

 

It happens with every issue, though. People circle their wagons and defend increasingly outlandish points of view that are “on the right side.”

[Danae]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I mean, why allow yourselves to get wedged on things like men in female sport, or rapists in women's prisons?

 

I mean, we apparently have voters who would rather vote for an actual rapist as long as he’s anti-trans, so you tell me.  

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

It happens with every issue, though. People circle their wagons and defend increasingly outlandish points of view that are “on the right side.”

Sure, humans gonna human, but it's still dumb. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Sure, humans gonna human, but it's still dumb. 

Can’t argue with you there.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Danae said:

I mean, we apparently have voters who would rather vote for an actual rapist as long as he’s anti-trans, so you tell me.  

I think you go back to principles. Is it right to support rapists in women's prisons just because some people don't take rape by elected officials seriously? No. Both things are bad. Be against both!

 

[LMD]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

I am getting a good dose of humble pie with our current lot - yep. In it for themselves. 

It doesn't really matter. The evidence for, child transition, say, remains low quality, regardless of whether Matt Walsh says it or not. 

 

 

Exactly. I can't even express how tiring it is to meet the same old ad hominems and insults.

I just don't want women locked in cages with rapists and small children being told their bodies are wrong and the science community forgetting that mammals reproduce sexually...

[Danae]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

Exactly. I can't even express how tiring it is to meet the same old ad hominems and insults.

I just don't want women locked in cages with rapists and small children being told their bodies are wrong and the science community forgetting that mammals reproduce sexually...

So, speaking of tiring.  This thread started with a question about language usage in the workplace.  How exactly did we get to minors and prisons?

[LMD]

Can you really not state 'women shouldn't be caged with male rapists' without... what? Being seen as a trump supporter? Why would you give that goal to one political party? I don't give an eff who does it just get the male rapists out of the women's prisons now.

[Melissa Louise]

7 minutes ago, Danae said:

So, speaking of tiring.  This thread started with a question about language usage in the workplace.  How exactly did we get to minors and prisons?

All part of the same spectrum of being asked to believe, speak and act in ways that are counter to (I believe) actual progress on issues of justice, including for women and children. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

But goodness, I'm sorry children's health care and women's rights are tiring! 

OK, I know that's snarky and unhelpful. Sorry. Momentary pissed-offness got through. 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Melissa Louise