Informal poll

[Scarlett]

10 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I mean his kids are ready or have disowned him and he is still moving forward with affair. What is the opinion of his SIL going to matter or a bunch of strangers online?

My mom was the other woman and trust me the two of them would rather walk away (literally go to another country) from anyone who knew their past than to just stop. His own kids won't speak to him (because he screwed them over). I've conveyed my lack of respect and disappointment over the whole thing (we now have an indefinite don't ask don't tell policy to remain in each other's lives). People who have affairs don't care about the shame, they'll justify it for themselves and find a way to escape the day to day criticism. 

It can definitely destroy more relationships than just the marriage. I am sorry for you that your mom chose that path. 

[Katy]

7 hours ago, BandH said:

I believe on the sanctity of my own marriage, but as someone who has gotten a lot of judgment for things in my marriage that outsiders didn’t understand, it’s not my place to make judgments about someone else’s marriage.  

If I was in the know about someone’s marriage enough to be confident my anger was warranted then I would be angry at my brother in this situation, not someone who didn’t make the vows.  If I was willing to see him, I’d be willing to meet her.

I used to think it was never right to judge the woman the man was cheating with, but when I was single I was once startled to find out the guy I’d been dating less than a week was not only married, he had a 6 month old daughter and they were living with his MIL. I nearly threw up, I found the whole situation so disgusting and revolting. I’m now good with judgement in this situation. Nope, nope, nope. 

[Katy]

Besides, if they’ll do it with you, they’ll do it to you. Never trust a cheater. 

[Drama Llama]

28 minutes ago, Katy said:

I used to think it was never right to judge the woman the man was cheating with, but when I was single I was once startled to find out the guy I’d been dating less than a week was not only married, he had a 6 month old daughter and they were living with his MIL. I nearly threw up, I found the whole situation so disgusting and revolting. I’m now good with judgement in this situation. Nope, nope, nope. 

I'm not saying that a person should choose to date or sleep with someone who is married to someone else.  I'm not excusing that behavior.  If I had been you, and found out what you found out, I would have been disgusted too!

But I think the person who deserves the harshest judgment is the person who made the vows, and then broke them, not the person they broke them with.  So, if she's not worth seeing, then neither is he.  To say, sure, I'll still see him and include him, but exclude her because she's a (insert one of many words that don't even have male equivalent) isn't fair.

I think that saying "I'll come to honor our father, and because I want to see other loved ones who will be there, but I won't visit with you outside that context" is fine.  But I think to agree to meet him, and then be upset that she's there, puts the emphasis on the wrong person's behavior.

 

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, BandH said:

I'm not saying that a person should choose to date or sleep with someone who is married to someone else.  I'm not excusing that behavior.  If I had been you, and found out what you found out, I would have been disgusted too!

But I think the person who deserves the harshest judgment is the person who made the vows, and then broke them, not the person they broke them with.  So, if she's not worth seeing, then neither is he.  To say, sure, I'll still see him and include him, but exclude her because she's a (insert one of many words that don't even have male equivalent) isn't fair.

I think that saying "I'll come to honor our father, and because I want to see other loved ones who will be there, but I won't visit with you outside that context" is fine.  But I think to agree to meet him, and then be upset that she's there, puts the emphasis on the wrong person's behavior.

 

I agree to one extent, but I still think it’s wrong to have no shame about ongoing sinful behavior that is currently hurting others you both love, and that’s definitely what he’s doing by showing off his mistress. The actual woman is secondary and the chances the new relationship will last is slim. 

[City Mouse]

18 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I think there is empathy for a bad marriage ending vs bringing a third party in.

When I read this I immediately jump to - if a spouse is going to a third party then the marriage is bad but maybe both parties are not aware that it is bad.

[Katy]

Just now, City Mouse said:

When I read this I immediately jump to - if a spouse is going to a third party then the marriage is bad but maybe both parties are not aware that it is bad.

In the last year I read about some study that said about 2/3 of people will cheat. 1/3 at any time given any attractive opportunity. 1/3 if the timing is right and the chances of getting caught are low. And 1/3 will never cheat under any circumstance. So the idea that it’s always a bad marriage seems factually incorrect to me. 

[SKL]

Raise your hand if you know someone IRL who was fooled into thinking her boyfriend was single.  🙋‍♀️

[Scarlett]

42 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

When I read this I immediately jump to - if a spouse is going to a third party then the marriage is bad but maybe both parties are not aware that it is bad.

I guess one could say if one spouse wants to have sex with someone else there is definitely a problem……not necessarily the marriage….sometimes people are broken or immoral and have no regard for others.

But EVEN IF things are  unbearable  and you just can’t take it, having an affair is not the answer. I am not sure why as a society we excuse it so readily. 

[SKL]

Just now, Scarlett said:

I guess one could say if one spouse wants to have sex with someone else there is definitely a problem……not necessarily the marriage….sometimes people are broken or immoral and have no regard for others.

But EVEN IF things are  unbearable  and you just can’t take it, having an affair is not the answer. I am not sure why as a society we excuse it so readily. 

If you're talking about me ... I was thinking, it is possible the wife was having an affair first, or doing God knows what and for God knows how long.  Without knowing these people very intimately, it's not for me to judge.

That said, I also would not be in any hurry to meet the girlfriend, as I also said.  I'd figure out some excuse to decline.  But I wouldn't be sanctimonious about it, because I don't know what I don't know.

[KungFuPanda]

The age difference is disturbing.

[Scarlett]

24 minutes ago, SKL said:

If you're talking about me ... I was thinking, it is possible the wife was having an affair first, or doing God knows what and for God knows how long.  Without knowing these people very intimately, it's not for me to judge.

That said, I also would not be in any hurry to meet the girlfriend, as I also said.  I'd figure out some excuse to decline.  But I wouldn't be sanctimonious about it, because I don't know what I don't know.

No I wasn’t talking about you.  I Quoted someone else.  

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, BandH said:

I'm not saying that a person should choose to date or sleep with someone who is married to someone else.  I'm not excusing that behavior.  If I had been you, and found out what you found out, I would have been disgusted too!

But I think the person who deserves the harshest judgment is the person who made the vows, and then broke them, not the person they broke them with.  So, if she's not worth seeing, then neither is he.  To say, sure, I'll still see him and include him, but exclude her because she's a (insert one of many words that don't even have male equivalent) isn't fair.

I think that saying "I'll come to honor our father, and because I want to see other loved ones who will be there, but I won't visit with you outside that context" is fine.  But I think to agree to meet him, and then be upset that she's there, puts the emphasis on the wrong person's behavior.

 

I do put the blame on him for attempting to include her and normalize being with her.  

[Scarlett]

29 minutes ago, SKL said:

If you're talking about me ... I was thinking, it is possible the wife was having an affair first, or doing God knows what and for God knows how long.  Without knowing these people very intimately, it's not for me to judge.

That said, I also would not be in any hurry to meet the girlfriend, as I also said.  I'd figure out some excuse to decline.  But I wouldn't be sanctimonious about it, because I don't know what I don't know.

She was not having an affair.   She was not easy to live with  still no excuse for her husband to have an affair. 

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

She was not having an affair.   She was not easy to live with  still no excuse for her husband to have an affair. 

How can you be so sure about this?

[Scarlett]

20 minutes ago, SKL said:

How can you be so sure about this?

Shrug I guess anything is possible.  There is zero evidence though and no accusation of an affair. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, BandH said:

I'm not saying that a person should choose to date or sleep with someone who is married to someone else.  I'm not excusing that behavior.  If I had been you, and found out what you found out, I would have been disgusted too!

But I think the person who deserves the harshest judgment is the person who made the vows, and then broke them, not the person they broke them with.  So, if she's not worth seeing, then neither is he.  To say, sure, I'll still see him and include him, but exclude her because she's a (insert one of many words that don't even have male equivalent) isn't fair.

I think that saying "I'll come to honor our father, and because I want to see other loved ones who will be there, but I won't visit with you outside that context" is fine.  But I think to agree to meet him, and then be upset that she's there, puts the emphasis on the wrong person's behavior.

 

I think it was on him for bringing her in when he knew it was not the time.

[Rosie_0801]

There's no real surprise in an inconsiderate person being inconsiderate, is there?

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I guess one could say if one spouse wants to have sex with someone else there is definitely a problem……not necessarily the marriage….sometimes people are broken or immoral and have no regard for others.

But EVEN IF things are  unbearable  and you just can’t take it, having an affair is not the answer. I am not sure why as a society we excuse it so readily. 

I'm not so sure that society in general is ok with married people having extramarital affairs; do you know many people who would be ok with their spouse cheating on them, or who wouldn't lose respect for a friend who turned out to be having an affair? I don't know anyone who would excuse things like that.

I suspect that the vast majority of people who readily excuse affairs are the people who are either having them themselves, or who would like to be. 

 

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Raise your hand if you know someone IRL who was fooled into thinking her boyfriend was single.  🙋‍♀️

I'll bet it has happened to way more people than will ever realize it happened to them.

It's a lot easier now than it used to be to find out if a potential date is married because people can find out a lot with some simple online sleuthing, but back in the Stone Age when I was dating, unless you dated within a very small social circle (I didn't,) there was always the risk that a guy who asked you out might be married. 

I guess that's one reason why I generally place most of the blame on the cheater -- a lot of their girlfriends or boyfriends may have no idea that they are involved with a married person. Let's face it, cheaters are also liars, and some of them have had years and years of practice convincing people that they are single, and they have believable stories and excuses ready for whenever questions and suspicions arise. 

 

[Scarlett]

I know men fool women into thinking they are single. That is why I would be extra diligent if I was dating. Heck, mutual trusted friends introduced me to Dh and I still googled him and checked all the court databases in his state. 
 

The important question is what do you do immediately upon finding out he is married. 

[Scarlett]

Everyone says they aren’t pro cheating etc. but I think actions speak louder than words. 
 

Plus all these things people say that appear to minimize the devastating effects of adultery. 

1) there was obviously something already wrong in that marriage.

2)Don’t blame the affair partner. He/she did not make the vow.

3)We really never know what goes on in a marriage.

4) Once separated it isn’t really cheating. 
 

I am sure there are more… add to them if you think of any. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Scarlett

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I know men fool women into thinking they are single. That is why I would be extra diligent if I was dating. Heck, mutual trusted friends introduced me to Dh and I still googled him and checked all the court databases in his state. 
 

The important question is what do you do immediately upon finding out he is married. 

In the case of my friend, this was not as simple as you make it sound.  She thought they were a couple for a long time.  Now she's supposed to forget all that instantly, or she's a whore.

The other thing married cheaters lie about is whether they are still committed to their marriage.  "Oh we haven't slept together in years.  It's a loveless marriage on both sides.  She has affairs too.  She can't stand me, she's only staying so she gets the house when the divorce is final.  We're faking it for the kids until they finish high school."

But it's automatically the fault of the younger, less experienced, often less powerful, sometimes dependent person who was lied to.

(Personally I'd drop that person like a hot potato, but I still feel like there's more nuance than you are giving it.)

Then again, the "other woman" may have known exactly what she was doing and did it anyway.  I just don't pretend to know one way or the other.

[Scarlett]

I think a person would have to have real blinders on to not discover a wife for ‘a long time’. 
 

Either way sometimes doing the right thing is painful. 

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I think a person would have to have real blinders on to not discover a wife for ‘a long time’. 
 

Either way sometimes doing the right thing is painful. 

I have at least 2 friends whose husbands had whole other families (with house, children, etc.) and my friends didn't know it.  These are not stupid people either.

[Catwoman]

54 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Everyone says they aren’t pro cheating etc. but I think actions speak louder than words. 
 

Plus all these things people say that appear to minimize the devastating effects of adultery. 

1) there was obviously something already wrong in that marriage.

2)Don’t blame the affair partner. He/she did not make the vow.

3)We really never know what goes on in a marriage.

4) Once separated it isn’t really cheating. 
 

I am sure there are more… add to them if you think of any. 

Ok, I’ll reply to all 4:

1. Of course there’s something wrong in the marriage if one spouse is cheating. Clearly, at least one spouse isn’t satisfied, whether or not he or she has voiced that dissatisfaction.

2. If the affair partner knows the person is married and not actively seeking divorce, then I absolutely blame that person. But I still blame the married person more, because he or she was the one who made the vows.

3. We never know what’s going on in someone else’s marriage. Even if we have heard a tremendous amount of detail from one spouse, that information is biased and incomplete. It’s amazing how two spouses may view their marriages entirely differently, and most people tend to overlook their own weaknesses and flaws to at least some degree, so the wife’s description of how she treats her dh may not be the way he interprets that treatment. Also, a lot of people are able to put on a good show for friends and family, so we can’t really judge their relationship based on social encounters.

4. How is it cheating if the couple is legally separated? 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I think a person would have to have real blinders on to not discover a wife for ‘a long time’. 

My mother's friend found out in her *seventies* that her husband had a second family with another woman and a 16 year old son. Not a short affair that resulted in a child. No, he maintained the relationship for all those years. 

Denial is a powerful force.

Edited August 2, 2023 by regentrude

[Catwoman]

12 minutes ago, regentrude said:

My mother's friend found out in her *seventies* that her husband had a second family with another woman and a 16 year old son. Not a short affair that resulted in a child. No, he maintained the relationship for all those years. 

Denial is a powerful force.

I agree.

Also, if a man (could be a woman, too, but let's just say it's a guy for this example,) travels often for business, he could conceivably have multiple residences and relationships, and there would be no reason for affair partners to suspect that the guy was married, because he appears to live alone and there is no evidence in his home of a wife or children. The girlfriend could stop by at any time and never encounter his wife, because his wife doesn't live nearby and may not even know about the place. I could actually imagine a busy woman thinking it was great to have a boyfriend who traveled a lot for work, because she could spend time with him when he was in town, yet still have plenty of time for her own pursuits. Why would she bother checking to see if he was married? 

I don't think any of this is a matter of people having blinders on. Many people just aren't particularly suspicious, and if they fall in love with someone, they trust that person and don't rush to the computer to google him and try to dig up dirt on him, particularly if he's a smooth liar and doesn't set off a lot of red flags. Everyone thinks they would be too smart to be taken in like that, but it happens. I'm so sorry for your mother's friend, @regentrude. That must have been awful for her. 😞 

[Janeway]

On 8/1/2023 at 12:40 PM, WildflowerMom said:

Why is she a hussy?  HE is the one who was married for years and left his wife.    The problem is the man!!

Him being a hussy does not make her less of a hussy. They would have to keep their junk away from me.  I would not be welcoming to either. I would tell my brother no. He and his joyride are not taking my attention or consideration. He is only asking for the meeting because he wants to spread pressure to everyone else. From my experience, giving a pass to one sleeze leads to others thinking it is okay. Don’t let him worm his nastiness in to your family.

[Scarlett]

10 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I agree.

Also, if a man (could be a woman, too, but let's just say it's a guy for this example,) travels often for business, he could conceivably have multiple residences and relationships, and there would be no reason for affair partners to suspect that the guy was married, because he appears to live alone and there is no evidence in his home of a wife or children. The girlfriend could stop by at any time and never encounter his wife, because his wife doesn't live nearby and may not even know about the place. I could actually imagine a busy woman thinking it was great to have a boyfriend who traveled a lot for work, because she could spend time with him when he was in town, yet still have plenty of time for her own pursuits. Why would she bother checking to see if he was married? 

I don't think any of this is a matter of people having blinders on. Many people just aren't particularly suspicious, and if they fall in love with someone, they trust that person and don't rush to the computer to google him and try to dig up dirt on him, particularly if he's a smooth liar and doesn't set off a lot of red flags. Everyone thinks they would be too smart to be taken in like that, but it happens. I'm so sorry for your mother's friend, @regentrude. That must have been awful for her. 😞 

I guess this is one of those situations where having a lot of money could be a negative….most people would not be able to pull off having a home that the wife did not know about.  Also I would have zero desire to be in a marriage where my husband was away from me for weeks at a time.  That isn’t a healthy set up even for the most trustworthy couples.  It is why many celebrities commit to not being away from each other more than x number of days at a time.  
 

I think  not being suspicious of suspicious situations is the very definition of having blinders on.  My best friend had a lot of clues but she just refused to believe it was true that her husband was leading a double life.  Up to and including there being an affair child.  Thankfully  she woke up and got out before she was 72. 

[Scarlett]

11 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Ok, I’ll reply to all 4:

1. Of course there’s something wrong in the marriage if one spouse is cheating. Clearly, at least one spouse isn’t satisfied, whether or not he or she has voiced that dissatisfaction.

2. If the affair partner knows the person is married and not actively seeking divorce, then I absolutely blame that person. But I still blame the married person more, because he or she was the one who made the vows.

3. We never know what’s going on in someone else’s marriage. Even if we have heard a tremendous amount of detail from one spouse, that information is biased and incomplete. It’s amazing how two spouses may view their marriages entirely differently, and most people tend to overlook their own weaknesses and flaws to at least some degree, so the wife’s description of how she treats her dh may not be the way he interprets that treatment. Also, a lot of people are able to put on a good show for friends and family, so we can’t really judge their relationship based on social encounters.

4. How is it cheating if the couple is legally separated? 

I feel like we are talking in circles but all of your replies appear to me to be justifications and minimizations of an affair.

[Scarlett]

To be clear I would not avoid the affair partner because I thought she was so terrible……but I would avoid socializing with the two of them because I would feel like I was condoning the affair.

[Bootsie]

19 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Everyone says they aren’t pro cheating etc. but I think actions speak louder than words. 
 

Plus all these things people say that appear to minimize the devastating effects of adultery. 

1) there was obviously something already wrong in that marriage.

2)Don’t blame the affair partner. He/she did not make the vow.

3)We really never know what goes on in a marriage.

4) Once separated it isn’t really cheating. 
 

I am sure there are more… add to them if you think of any. 

I think #4 can cover a range of behaviors.  I have seen people who wanted to have an affair, separate so that they felt "free" to have an affair, testing the waters, and then decide if they wanted to divorce; I don't condone that behavior.  I have also seen people who have separated, planning to end the marriage, and filed for divorce; the only thing that remains is legal matters of separating property (which in some instances can take years); in those instances, I would not classify the behavior as "cheating."  

My father died suddenly when I was a young adult.  His brother had filed for divorce from his wife (who did not want a divorce); my father had been very supportive of his sister-in-law.  I was at the funeral home talking to this aunt, when my dad's brother walked in with his girlfriend.  To make matters worse, his son, wife, and grandkids were there; his son was not speaking to him because of the girlfriend (and a neighbor had called this son, misidentifying my father, telling him that his dad had died--so he was dealing with thinking his dad had died, finding out he hadn't, and having his dad walk into the funeral home with his girlfriend all on the same day).  There was no way I was going to condone or accept my uncle's new relationship...  Fast forward, and he has been married to the girlfriend for almost 30 years; the two of them have been very close to my children, in many ways closer than their two living grandparents.  While I don't condone their behavior at the beginning of the relationship, in many ways his wife has become a person I greatly admire and respect.  It has been a challenging situation for me, but if I had not extended some grace and mercy, I, and my children, would have missed out on a great relationship.  

[Bootsie]

7 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I guess this is one of those situations where having a lot of money could be a negative….most people would not be able to pull off having a home that the wife did not know about.  Also I would have zero desire to be in a marriage where my husband was away from me for weeks at a time.  That isn’t a healthy set up even for the most trustworthy couples.  It is why many celebrities commit to not being away from each other more than x number of days at a time.  
 

Being apart from your spose for weeks at a time may not be a healthy setup for your marriage, but that is not necessarily the case for other people's marriages.  I haven't seen DH in the past 7 weeks.  A number of times in our marriage we have supported each other's being away for weeks at a time--for work opportunities, to visit a child, to provide care for a family member...  The support we have provided as we have partnered with each other, allowing for these opportunities, has strengthened our marriage.  

[Scarlett]

23 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Being apart from your spose for weeks at a time may not be a healthy setup for your marriage, but that is not necessarily the case for other people's marriages.  I haven't seen DH in the past 7 weeks.  A number of times in our marriage we have supported each other's being away for weeks at a time--for work opportunities, to visit a child, to provide care for a family member...  The support we have provided as we have partnered with each other, allowing for these opportunities, has strengthened our marriage.  

I am glad it has worked for you.  Personally I have seen it go bad many many times.

[Scarlett]

48 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I think #4 can cover a range of behaviors.  I have seen people who wanted to have an affair, separate so that they felt "free" to have an affair, testing the waters, and then decide if they wanted to divorce; I don't condone that behavior.  I have also seen people who have separated, planning to end the marriage, and filed for divorce; the only thing that remains is legal matters of separating property (which in some instances can take years); in those instances, I would not classify the behavior as "cheating."  

My father died suddenly when I was a young adult.  His brother had filed for divorce from his wife (who did not want a divorce); my father had been very supportive of his sister-in-law.  I was at the funeral home talking to this aunt, when my dad's brother walked in with his girlfriend.  To make matters worse, his son, wife, and grandkids were there; his son was not speaking to him because of the girlfriend (and a neighbor had called this son, misidentifying my father, telling him that his dad had died--so he was dealing with thinking his dad had died, finding out he hadn't, and having his dad walk into the funeral home with his girlfriend all on the same day).  There was no way I was going to condone or accept my uncle's new relationship...  Fast forward, and he has been married to the girlfriend for almost 30 years; the two of them have been very close to my children, in many ways closer than their two living grandparents.  While I don't condone their behavior at the beginning of the relationship, in many ways his wife has become a person I greatly admire and respect.  It has been a challenging situation for me, but if I had not extended some grace and mercy, I, and my children, would have missed out on a great relationship.  

I am not saying you or anyone is wrong for having a relationship with an uncle and his affair partner 30 years later when she is no longer an affair partner but his wife. .  I would be interested in the progression of that and how your cousin dealt with it as the years went by.  I understand it is not my business though.  
 

A lot of it for me would depend on if they ever felt remorse for what they had done.

 

[Catwoman]

12 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I feel like we are talking in circles but all of your replies appear to me to be justifications and minimizations of an affair.

I’m really trying to understand you, but I’m very confused. I can’t see how anything I said would justify or minimize an affair. 

[regentrude]

12 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Also I would have zero desire to be in a marriage where my husband was away from me for weeks at a time.  That isn’t a healthy set up even for the most trustworthy couples. 

We did 8 years of long-distance. With distances of 50 miles, 1,000 miles, and 5,000 miles. It's very common for couples in academia where you don't have the luxury of choosing where you would like to live. Did I "desire" that? No, but I desired to stay with my DH, and we made it work.

[Tree Frog]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

We did 8 years of long-distance. With distances of 50 miles, 1,000 miles, and 5,000 miles. It's very common for couples in academia where you don't have the luxury of choosing where you would like to live. Did I "desire" that? No, but I desired to stay with my DH, and we made it work.

We had something similar. He was gone 6 weeks, home for 3-6 before leaving again for 6-8 years. I essentially had two different living patterns: one as a single parent (with an income) and one with both parents present. I enjoyed both; they offered different advantages and disadvantages. I never considered cheating and to the best of my knowledge, he didn't either, though I heard stories about others he was with who did. He's home almost always now and sometimes I sometimes wish he had somewhere else to go for a day or a week.

[Bootsie]

9 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I am not saying you or anyone is wrong for having a relationship with an uncle and his affair partner 30 years later when she is no longer an affair partner but his wife. .  I would be interested in the progression of that and how your cousin dealt with it as the years went by.  I understand it is not my business though.  
 

A lot of it for me would depend on if they ever felt remorse for what they had done.

 

First, I do not know if my uncle began a relationship with the girlfriend while he was still living with the previous wife.  I know that he had filed for divorce and had no intention of returning to the marriage; the legal process of the divorce proceedings had not been completed when I met the girlfriend.  I know that the son I mentioned did not attend the wedding when he married the girlfriend the following year (but I know his brother did).  I do not know much of the progression of the relationship between father and son over the years, but I do know that they are very close now.  

Much of it is a mystery to me.  I am one who takes marriage very seriously (from a religious, not a legal standpoint).  I think adultery and affairs are extremely hurtful and damaging to a broad circle of people.  I would never say that an affair was OK or "for the best".  However, I see that my uncle is a completely different person married to his current wife.  (The whole story is more complicated in that this is not his second wife--but his fourth wife.)  I very much understand the desire not to act in a way that can be viewed as condoning an affair or being supportive of an affair-relationship.  I also see how love, mercy, and grace have brought many positive things, despite some people's poor choices; their marriage has been a blessing to many people.   I am reminded that while some sins, and their harm, are much more visible than others, they are no greater.  And, I am not sure how to balance it all.  

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, Bootsie said:

First, I do not know if my uncle began a relationship with the girlfriend while he was still living with the previous wife.  I know that he had filed for divorce and had no intention of returning to the marriage; the legal process of the divorce proceedings had not been completed when I met the girlfriend.  I know that the son I mentioned did not attend the wedding when he married the girlfriend the following year (but I know his brother did).  I do not know much of the progression of the relationship between father and son over the years, but I do know that they are very close now.  

Much of it is a mystery to me.  I am one who takes marriage very seriously (from a religious, not a legal standpoint).  I think adultery and affairs are extremely hurtful and damaging to a broad circle of people.  I would never say that an affair was OK or "for the best".  However, I see that my uncle is a completely different person married to his current wife.  (The whole story is more complicated in that this is not his second wife--but his fourth wife.)  I very much understand the desire not to act in a way that can be viewed as condoning an affair or being supportive of an affair-relationship.  I also see how love, mercy, and grace have brought many positive things, despite some people's poor choices; their marriage has been a blessing to many people.   I am reminded that while some sins, and their harm, are much more visible than others, they are no greater.  And, I am not sure how to balance it all.  

This is a beautiful post.  
 

My brother ruined his first marriage and left his wife and two kids.  I know he was separated before he met a girl he started an affair with, but that doesn’t mean much to me.  I don’t think he would have divorced his wife if he had not started the affair.  But he did and then married that girl.  He went through two more marriages and divorces and is now raising his son (3rd child) whose mother died.  I have stayed very very close to my (former ) SIL. She remarried a nice man and they have been married 19 years.
My brother and I have had a lot of rough years as siblings because of his choices and how it affected others…..especially his children.  But I love him and I do have a relationship with him.  
 

My best friend’s first husband was like I brother to me.  It has been 27 years since my friend finally left him.  He was a major cheater and I was very very angry at him for years.  Probably 3-4.  My anger is gone but I will never have a relationship with him. One time he followed me out to the parking lot at an event we were out and told me he missed me and all our old times.  And he wished things could go back like they were for us.  I looked at him and said, ‘well, my friend, I have lost the urge to hit you upside the head with a baseball bat but things will never be the same again.’  He laughed and then he was sad.  But such is life.

His first son was adopted by my friend’s new husband who raised him since age 2.  They do have a relationship but it isn’t really father/son like. 
 

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. I do feel better knowing there is someone out there who doesn’t want to or even appear to condone an affair relationship. 

 

He had more than paid for his since with the consequences of his actions….he is alone now at age 5

[Bootsie]

In many ways these situations are a conundrum.  I know that there have been many people who have seen or heard a bit of the story and have assumed that I was the "other woman" when I was NOT.  DH and I knew each other when he was still married to his ex-wife, as we worked together.  While they were married I probably talked to the ex-wife more than I talked to him.  I happened to be at a work-related dinner and was seated next to her when she started complaining about how her husband didn't understand her need for sexual experimentation with other men!  Knowing that she had had several affairs, one that he walked in on in their own home, they divorced.  They had two adolescent-aged daughters, and DH was very careful not to put their mother in a bad light to them.  DH dated a couple of women after his divorce before we ever had a relationship.  Because we worked together, DH is more than a decade older than I am, and because ex-wife alluded to "an affair", many people have falsely assumed that I was the reason for the divorce.  A couple of years ago, through her participation in an AA program, his ex went to various family members asking for forgiveness--and their daughters who are now in their 40s have discovered that it was their mother who was the one having affairs.  Would it have been better for them to know all along?  I am not sure what the answer to that question is.  

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

In many ways these situations are a conundrum.  I know that there have been many people who have seen or heard a bit of the story and have assumed that I was the "other woman" when I was NOT.  DH and I knew each other when he was still married to his ex-wife, as we worked together.  While they were married I probably talked to the ex-wife more than I talked to him.  I happened to be at a work-related dinner and was seated next to her when she started complaining about how her husband didn't understand her need for sexual experimentation with other men!  Knowing that she had had several affairs, one that he walked in on in their own home, they divorced.  They had two adolescent-aged daughters, and DH was very careful not to put their mother in a bad light to them.  DH dated a couple of women after his divorce before we ever had a relationship.  Because we worked together, DH is more than a decade older than I am, and because ex-wife alluded to "an affair", many people have falsely assumed that I was the reason for the divorce.  A couple of years ago, through her participation in an AA program, his ex went to various family members asking for forgiveness--and their daughters who are now in their 40s have discovered that it was their mother who was the one having affairs.  Would it have been better for them to know all along?  I am not sure what the answer to that question is.  

I agree a lot of this is not black and white but I do believe children have the right to know the broad reasons for the collapse of their family of origin.   Age appropriate of course.  I did tell my son that I was divorcing his dad because of an affair.  I did my best to give just necessary facts but it is hard when you yourself are so devastated and out of your mind. He has a relationship with his dad today…not a great one, but ok.  When he was 12 he told his dad he would never accept the other woman and when ds was 13 they broke up and xh finally saw what he had done and apologized to me and our son.  
 

Dh did not tell his boys their mom was divorcing him to be with another man.  Instead she told them my Dh was mean to her and reminded them about a time he yelled at her. What she didn’t mention was it was over her sleeping with a other man.  Older son was estranged from Dh for 7 years.  
 

I don’t think it is right to let kids grow up with incorrect ideas about their parents.  But they don’t need all the details of course.  
 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I agree a lot of this is not black and white but I do believe children have the right to know the broad reasons for the collapse of their family of origin.   Age appropriate of course.  I did tell my son that I was divorcing his dad because of an affair.  I did my best to give just necessary facts but it is hard when you yourself are so devastated and out of your mind. He has a relationship with his dad today…not a great one, but ok.  When he was 12 he told his dad he would never accept the other woman and when ds was 13 they broke up and xh finally saw what he had done and apologized to me and our son.  
 

Dh did not tell his boys their mom was divorcing him to be with another man.  Instead she told them my Dh was mean to her and reminded them about a time he yelled at her. What she didn’t mention was it was over her sleeping with a other man.  Older son was estranged from Dh for 7 years.  
 

I don’t think it is right to let kids grow up with incorrect ideas about their parents.  But they don’t need all the details of course.  
 

Since your own son was unaware his dad was being cheated on, you can understand how it is very possible that there are things in your friend's out-of-state sibling's marriage that you are unaware of, such as, maybe it's SHE who abandoned the marriage vows.  Or maybe not!

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Since your own son was unaware his dad was being cheated on, you can understand how it is very possible that there are things in your friend's out-of-state sibling's marriage that you are unaware of, such as, maybe it's SHE who abandoned the marriage vows.  Or maybe not!

Yeah, that doesn’t make sense. Kids know what adults tell them, which was the point….

 

 The BIL fully admits the affair, and he wife doesn’t want a divorce…..so yes of course there can always be things we don’t know, but he has been very honest with his brother and was counseled strongly to NOT do this thing, but he did it anyway. 
 

But again, this feels like a way to minimize the affair. ‘Well, we don’t know, it might not really be his fault that he is having sex with another woman other than his wife.’  SMH.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Scarlett

[SKL]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yeah, that doesn’t make sense. Kids know what adults tell them, which was the point….

 

 The BIL fully admits the affair, and he wife doesn’t want a divorce…..so yes of course there can always be things we don’t know, but he has been very honest with his brother and was counseled strongly to NOT do this thing, but he did it anyway. 
 

But again, this feels like a way to minimize the affair. ‘Well, we don’t know, it might not really be his fault that he is having sex with another woman other than his wife.’  SMH.

Ok whatever.  I'm not in their bedroom so I am not going to assume 100% guilt on one party and 0% on the other.  Because even in your own experience, it can and does happen the other way, and most people (even "good guys") do keep such things very private.

[SKL]

Personally I can talk idealistically about marriage since I've never been married.  I do think many people take marriage too lightly.  I feel a lot of couples didn't think things through enough before being married in the first place.  If they had, a lot of divorces would not have happened.  But that's easy for me to say, isn't it?

FTR nobody in my close family is divorced.  Not parents, not siblings, not self.  My folks have been married for 62 years, my married siblings for decades.  Just because I have seen both sides from the outside doesn't mean I take the sanctity of marriage lightly.