Tell me about your Mathy kids

[Lawyer&Mom]

Dd9  is fairly globally gifted.  99th percentile on MAP reading, 98th percentile on MAP math.  But despite her math ability she doesn’t show nearly as much interest in it.  She’s too busy reading to be a mathy kid.  She’s had passing interest in Beast Academy or Life of Fred, but math doesn’t hold her focus.  None of this is a problem!  Except sometimes I think I ought to push her in math, given her ability.  (Enrolling her in AOPS math in-person is an option!)  Please talk me down from this imaginary cliff.  Tell me that her passion for reading/fantasy/history/language is important and that I should support her passions.  And tell me that your mathy kids were already showing mathy interest at age 9.  Thanks!

[Clemsondana]

I have a kid who is also academically advanced.  When we started pre-A (I think in 4th grade?) I was encouraged to try AoPS because it would be great for kid.  It turns out that kid didn't have the attention to detail needed to do the program at a reasonable pace even though kid wasn't challenged by the concepts.  It might have been OK if I had gone much slower, but I hadn't planned to take 2 years to do one course.  Kid didn't like spending that much time on math at that age.  Kid ended up hating math, and we took a significant break, then did LoF for a while before easing back into AoPs at a slower pace.  We continued to use it but did each course in 1.5 years for alg and geo.  One one hand, kid has a great math understanding and I would recommend number theory and C&P.  On the other hand, trying to use that program with a young kid is one of my top 5 homeschool regrets.  There might be advantages with some of the later programs and, like I said, the shorter books were interesting to kid, but there was no reason to make frustrating math such a big focus when kid would have been happier doing other things.  

[Amoret]

I think you should support her interests. Math is important (it is one of the only nonnegotiable parts of our day), but so are the humanities. And at age nine (or any age, really) it doesn't have to be one or the other.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Amoret

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

I fell for a similar trap but with reading. I attempted to have mine read Matilda & Harry Potter at 6yo. He hated reading. It turned out his decoding was very uneven with his comprehension skill, and jumping into hard books too early discouraged him from reading all together. He still only likes comics books. I would say expose your kids to as many things as you can and let them follow their interests. Their interests may change over time too. 

[Not_a_Number]

You should support her passions! 

But to be devil's advocate . . . you should also see if you can find some math she might be excited about. Not all math is created equal. My kids have always been FAR more excited about things like binary than the standard curriculum. 

Math can also be a way to engage with rigorous reasoning. That's also something that's hard to get elsewhere, so math is a really good tool.

[8filltheheart]

My 24 yod and my current 7th grader are both globally gifted.  My 24 yod was as good at math as my physicsgeek ds but her passion was for languages.  My 7th grader's passions are singing, violin, reading, and writing.  For both of them, I had/have them work at their ability level, but I did not push courses like AoPS.  Solid honors level math was good enough.

FWIW, yes, my physicsgeek showed is his love for math by the time he was 6.

[Lawyer&Mom]

I should say that Dd9 is in school, so both math and language arts are being covered, if not at her true level.  I’m looking at gifted enrichment classes as a source of challenge and additional social opportunities.  The choice is language arts class vs. math class.  Ideally she could do both, but it would probably be an excessive financial and time commitment.  

[Tanager]

My oldest (12) loves reading, writing, poetry... but she did surprise me with math interests at times too, such as coding and robotics. We just try to follow passions as they arise - when kids are interested amazing things can happen.

Does your daughter know what expected for the class and want to take it? For us, being around other kids she finds it easier to relate to has been great no matter what the subject is. I think part of it is not feeling she has to hide her abilities. 

Since there are two classes and just one makes sense I’d let her pick after reading the descriptions and emailing any questions to the teacher. 

My youngest is great at math and has done creative stuff with numbers/patterns since he was very young, but loves art... so I’m looking for art classes...

[Arcadia]

On 4/23/2023 at 10:39 AM, Lawyer&Mom said:

.  Tell me that her passion for reading/fantasy/history/language is important and that I should support her passions.  And tell me that your mathy kids were already showing mathy interest at age 9.  

Language and math are linked. The only interest DS18 shows at 9 was for doodling on his textbooks, workbooks etc. Math is an interest he likes as much as linguistics but he love engineering more. In that sense, he is similar to me. My math and English grades were high despite sleeping in class but my love is still engineering. 

3 hours ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

 The choice is language arts class vs. math class.  Ideally she could do both, but it would probably be an excessive financial and time commitment.  

We paid for German and Chinese (heritage lang) classes and those were challenging enough for my kids. DS17 did math circles for a year at elementary school age and didn’t like it. DS18 didn’t get a spot. He loved the math camp he went to during summer in middle school. It was a day camp so he gets the socialization (1st priority), enrichment (2nd priority) while staying at home (he doesn’t want dorms).

[Lawyer&Mom]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

Language and math are linked. The only interest DS18 shows at 9 was for doodling on his textbooks, workbooks etc. Math is an interest he likes as much as linguistics but he love engineering more. In that sense, he is similar to me. My math and English grades were high despite sleeping in class but my love is still engineering. 

My second kid is the engineer!  Her math scores are around the 85th percentile, so very solid, but not extraordinary.  But she is just *constantly* making cool things out of cardboard and scraps.  No mystery there!

The oldest resembles me in her language interests, but I didn’t have the math scores to match hers.  I want to steer her towards language arts, her passion and mine, but the math opportunity cost is tugging at me.   

[Arcadia]

29 minutes ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

 I want to steer her towards language arts, her passion and mine, but the math opportunity cost is tugging at me.   

Do the language arts which is your passion and hers at home, and outsource math to AoPS or math circles.   For DS18, computer science merge both worlds of language and math, with the hands on aspects of engineering that he enjoys. 

[SanDiegoMom]

My ds is globally gifted and enjoys many aspects of literature, poetry, philosophy, etc.  But his true love was always math -- from probably age three.  By five he was reading Murderous Maths, Life of Fred, Penrose the Mathematical Cat, and so many others.  During his 6th-8th grade years he spent half the academic day on math by choice.   

His MAP scores were both 99th percentile in second grade (the last year he was tested)   However the Verbal score was like 2-3 grade levels advanced and the math was 4-5, probably because he spent so much outside time on math by choice. 

[Cake and Pi]

My mathy kid has been very interested in math since about 4.5 years old. He's not interested in humanities at all, and I've allowed him to skimp on those subjects so that he could peruse even more math (and computer science recently). We even had a year where all he did was math. He took multiple math classes at the same time, read books about math and mathematicians, wrote solutions to math problems, and learned about a teeny of the history of math. And, that was it for school work!

I don't see a problem with following the child's interests. If I had a languagey kid rather than a mathy one, I would totally let them dive deep in that while skimping on math instead.

[Lawyer&Mom]

On 4/24/2023 at 4:26 PM, SanDiegoMom said:

His MAP scores were both 99th percentile in second grade (the last year he was tested)   However the Verbal score was like 2-3 grade levels advanced and the math was 4-5, probably because he spent so much outside time on math by choice. 

This is a good point.  Her 98th percentile on Math and her 99th percentile for Reading are actually farther apart than they look.  Her math score would put her in the 50th percentile for 6th grade, her reading score would put her in the 60th percentile for 12th grade.  (I was trying to find the grade where she would be 50th percentile for Reading and ran out of grades…)

[Porridge]

DD14 is globally gifted. She’s always been a voracious reader. She showed an early aptitude and interest in math, but this year math has been superseded by her interest in languages (chinese and Arabic) and debate. For the first time, she’s not doing any math over the summer because she’s going to Arabic language camp and serving as a counselor at debate camp.  However, she still loves math and I think she’s likely to come back to it.

On 4/24/2023 at 2:08 PM, Arcadia said:

Do the language arts which is your passion and hers at home, and outsource math to AoPS or math circles.   For DS18, computer science merge both worlds of language and math, with the hands on aspects of engineering that he enjoys. 

This is what we do. I’m not mathy so we’ve outsourced to AoPS online. You could put your daughter in the AoPS in person class and see if she likes it. If she doesn’t like it, I wouldn’t stress or push her too hard. Singapore is also a very robust math program (and I’m sure there are other great math programs, too).

She’s gained a lot of social confidence through debate and Arabic, and I think that’s more important for her right now. 

I’m meandering, but my point is that I think for some kids, interests shift and change over time. I would definitely try to set a solid foundation in math (doesn’t have to be AoPS), but overall let them lean into the areas that bring them joy, confidence, and friendships. 

[Porridge]

18 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

My mathy kid has been very interested in math since about 4.5 years old. He's not interested in humanities at all, and I've allowed him to skimp on those subjects so that he could peruse even more math (and computer science recently). We even had a year where all he did was math. He took multiple math classes at the same time, read books about math and mathematicians, wrote solutions to math problems, and learned about a teeny of the history of math. And, that was it for school work!

I don't see a problem with following the child's interests. If I had a languagey kid rather than a mathy one, I would totally let them dive deep in that while skimping on math instead.

What will you do in high school? 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

On 4/24/2023 at 3:39 AM, Lawyer&Mom said:

Dd9  is fairly globally gifted.  99th percentile on MAP reading, 98th percentile on MAP math.  But despite her math ability she doesn’t show nearly as much interest in it.  She’s too busy reading to be a mathy kid.  She’s had passing interest in Beast Academy or Life of Fred, but math doesn’t hold her focus.  None of this is a problem!  Except sometimes I think I ought to push her in math, given her ability.  (Enrolling her in AOPS math in-person is an option!)  Please talk me down from this imaginary cliff.  Tell me that her passion for reading/fantasy/history/language is important and that I should support her passions.  And tell me that your mathy kids were already showing mathy interest at age 9.  Thanks!

You described my daughter! I can completely relate.

My daughter has just turned 17, and is in her third year of a double-Bachelors humanities uni degree.

At 9, she had mastered Grade 9 maths. At 13, she completed highschool maths and completed the advanced stream official exam (calculus, trig, stats etc) with the highest mark possible.

She was innately capable at maths, and but it didn't ignite her at all. Maths was never going to be her future. 

But maths was very valuable for her overall education. She acknowledges that AOPS, Life of Fred, Zaccarro etc all nurtured her problem-solving skills. And honestly, she needed the challenge of difficult maths for her mental health.

But her passions are humanities: languages, music and writing. And this is what she's studying at tertiary level. She's thriving, but does still need extra mental stimulation on the side.

[Malam]

6 hours ago, Porridge said:

chinese and Arabic) and debate

What did you use for languages and debate?

[Porridge]

9 minutes ago, Malam said:

What did you use for languages and debate?

Chinese - we were in a small local chinese class from ages 6-12. We switched to a tutor through italki last year.

Arabic - we are taking it through dual enrollment 

Debate - there are many options in the major metro area that we live in.  There is a national homeschool debate league (but it is religiously oriented)- they have their own tournament circuit separate from the NSDA (National Speech and Debate Assoc).  There are private non-sectarian debate programs (that function like an after-school extracurricular) - their teams participate in NSDA tournaments just like the school teams. One of our local homeschool co-ops also offers debate…

[Jackie]

Until my kid was 7, they were 100% a “language kid”. Super early reader, talked in full sentences and paragraphs before 2 years old, tested at adult “reading level” and 8th grade comprehension at age 4.

They were strong in math, but maybe 2-3 years advanced, and no notable interest.

Then they learned about Epsilon Camp. They had been pretty isolated in a smallish town. They hadn’t found other kids “like them”. And they didn’t care what subject they had to embrace to get to those kids. They threw themself into math like nothing I’d seen, moving from mid-4th grade BA through the end of Algebra 1 in about 14 months. They now define themselves as a STEM kid.

They still test stronger in English. They’re globally gifted, with hindrances due to 2e-ness. 

All that talk to say: lean in. Lean in for now. Lean in if it changes. Provide inroads to math that respect the love for reading (I can rec some book if you’d like), but I’ve had the best luck just waiting for a glimmer of interest and then leaning in.

[freesia]

My mathy kid who loved  to read never liked mathy pursuits like math contests or AOPS. He went all humanities in the beginning of college. Rediscovered math part way through ( but too late to do a math minor.) He majored in philosophy and psychology (communications minor) and is now a computer programmer.  So, I guess my take away has been that you can provide the opportunities,  but can’t force things. They will find their way to and in their passions. 
 

I also need to say that all that reading led to great writing which helped with scholarships. He is also a very interesting person to talk to which can’t be said of a lot of the programmers we know who talk about cyber security at every social get together. His interests in fantasy has led to hobbies that provide a social life that is meaningful to him. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by freesia

[FreyaO]

It seems to me that having a strong quantitative understanding will still be an advantage in the humanities. There are several archaeologists in my family; it really should be a science, but it isn't. 

Would your daughter be interested in something like philosophy? Or linguistics?

 

[Cake and Pi]

On 4/27/2023 at 2:56 PM, Porridge said:

What will you do in high school? 

Uhhhh... I honestly don't know. We're just taking things one semester at a time right now.

He's 5th grade by age and just took his calc 2 final at the university today. He's signed up for calc 3 in the fall and it sounds like they expect him to take either diff eq or linear algebra in the spring. Then for 7th grade...? Proof writing for math/stat majors and whichever of diff eq or linear algebra he hasn't yet taken? Sometime in the next year or so he probably needs to meet with an advisor to get things figured out.

There's still plenty of math available, though. It sounds like he should be able to continue taking one math class per semester (not summers) and not run out of math all the way through high school. He's super spikey with barely-accelerated language arts and delayed social/emotional skills, so we don't have any intention of graduating him early at this time. 

[lewelma]

@Porridge : there is so much math you can do in high school. My ds self-studied the following courses by using books:

Calculus

Multivariate Calc

Linear algebra 

Differential equations

Combinatorics

Advanced Combinatorics (he walked into university and went into Graduate level combinatorics)

Number theory

Advanced Number theory

University-level Geometry

Real Analysis

Statistics

He was also exceptionally good a proof writing given his IMO years. The above courses were incredibly proof heavy because he designed them and did them with that focus in mind. In addition, by being completely self-taught, he was incredibly capable of figuring out things on his own. Both of these skills were enormously helpful when he entered university and were a big reason why he could enter grad-level math classes at MIT as a freshman and do well.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by lewelma

[lewelma]

30 minutes ago, Cake and Pi said:

 we don't have any intention of graduating him early at this time. 

We also did not graduate ds early. Like your son, mine was crazy spikey, and giving him the years to mature was a great gift.  He eventually caught up with the humanities, and I often have said that it was all the novels he read in high school that humanized him. We gave him the time to grow into himself, and I am very glad we did.

[lewelma]

On 4/24/2023 at 5:39 AM, Lawyer&Mom said:

Tell me that her passion for reading/fantasy/history/language is important and that I should support her passions. 

Success breeds success. If you find a passion and run with it, success will follow. Once a kid is successful in one endeavour, then they become keen to replicate it in other areas.  My son learned to write by doing math proofs, he needed his passion for math to give him capability in the humanities. By the end of high school he was reading books like War and Peace and 100 years of solitude, and writing fluidly. I would think that this approach could easily go the opposite way for your dd.  Get her into high level literary analysis of difficult books, and down the line these analytical skills can translate into clarity of thought for math.  I'm in the camp of running with a child's passion and never looking back. 

[Malam]

1 hour ago, Cake and Pi said:

Uhhhh... I honestly don't know. We're just taking things one semester at a time right now.

He's 5th grade by age and just took his calc 2 final at the university today. He's signed up for calc 3 in the fall and it sounds like they expect him to take either diff eq or linear algebra in the spring. Then for 7th grade...? Proof writing for math/stat majors and whichever of diff eq or linear algebra he hasn't yet taken? Sometime in the next year or so he probably needs to meet with an advisor to get things figured out.

There's still plenty of math available, though. It sounds like he should be able to continue taking one math class per semester (not summers) and not run out of math all the way through high school. He's super spikey with barely-accelerated language arts and delayed social/emotional skills, so we don't have any intention of graduating him early at this time. 

You don't need to continue the linear path for math/engineering majors. You could, for example, spend a year on "elementary" (precalculus) competition math with AoPS volumes 1 and 2, and take the AMC 10 (which he should be doing anyways). Also check out Epsilon camp and other math camps - they could be a great opportunity for him to meet other kids like him 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Malam

[UHP]

3 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

He's 5th grade by age and just took his calc 2 final at the university today.

Could you tell something about what he was doing in 3rd and 4th grade? I'm very curious.

My 2nd grader isn't crazy about math, doesn't study it or play with it on her own outside of our daily lessons. But by now those lessons have brought us through the usual K-6 curriculum and 30% of the way through Saxon's Algebra 1. It's conceivable we'll be finished with Algebra 1 at the end of the summer. I've been having a hard time picturing the next few years.

[Malam]

7 hours ago, UHP said:

But by now those lessons have brought us through the usual K-6 curriculum and 30% of the way through Saxon's Algebra 1.

Which daily lessons are you using?

[Not_a_Number]

11 hours ago, lewelma said:

Success breeds success. If you find a passion and run with it, success will follow. Once a kid is successful in one endeavour, then they become keen to replicate it in other areas.  My son learned to write by doing math proofs, he needed his passion for math to give him capability in the humanities. By the end of high school he was reading books like War and Peace and 100 years of solitude, and writing fluidly. I would think that this approach could easily go the opposite way for your dd.  Get her into high level literary analysis of difficult books, and down the line these analytical skills can translate into clarity of thought for math.  I'm in the camp of running with a child's passion and never looking back. 

That’s such a good lesson. Go with what inspires your kid and the skills will translate to other endeavors. They’ll learn how to learn. How to think. How it feels to be engaged and proud of your work.

I’m sometimes finding that hard to implement given the kids’ emotional regulation issues, but it’s really right.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

9 hours ago, UHP said:

Could you tell something about what he was doing in 3rd and 4th grade? I'm very curious.

My 2nd grader isn't crazy about math, doesn't study it or play with it on her own outside of our daily lessons. But by now those lessons have brought us through the usual K-6 curriculum and 30% of the way through Saxon's Algebra 1. It's conceivable we'll be finished with Algebra 1 at the end of the summer. I've been having a hard time picturing the next few years.

I’d go broad if I were you.

[UHP]

2 hours ago, Malam said:

Which daily lessons are you using?

For 1.5 years, I used a program called Connecting Math Concepts, which really did have daily scripted lessons. We finished them in February and started Saxon, which is less transparent and requires a lot more daily preparation for me.

Saxon was recommended to me by another fan of CMC, in fact very highly recommended. But it came with a warning to only use the third edition.

49 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’d go broad if I were you.

What does it mean, go broad?

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, UHP said:

For 1.5 years, I used a program called Connecting Math Concepts, which really did have daily scripted lessons. We finished them in February and started Saxon, which is less transparent and requires a lot more daily preparation for me.

Saxon was recommended to me by another fan of CMC, in fact very highly recommended. But it came with a warning to only use the third edition.

What does it mean, go broad?

Learn some math that’s not on the standard curriculum. The AoPS intro series is good for that.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/blog/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

Edited April 29, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Malam]

18 minutes ago, UHP said:

For 1.5 years, I used a program called Connecting Math Concepts, which really did have daily scripted lessons. We finished them in February and started Saxon

Which levels of CMC and Saxon did you go through? Wouldn't going through the daily lessons take one year per year? How did you go through k-6 by 2nd grade?

I would suggest starting with AoPS prealgebra so long as she can pass this test but not this one. For competition math/enrichment you could also look at this book, this book, or this book (in descending order of difficulty). You can also look at some free math competition questions here, here, and here.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Malam

[wendyroo]

20 minutes ago, UHP said:

What does it mean, go broad?

I also like the Math circle lessons and problems from the University of Waterloo as a way to go broad.

Spend time thinking about math in very different ways.

[Malam]

12 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

I also like the Math circle lessons and problems from the University of Waterloo as a way to go broad.

Spend time thinking about math in very different ways.

They also have a problem of the week. To continue with the theme of going broad, here, here, here are some free/affordable resources. There's also the living math rabbit hole.

[UHP]

38 minutes ago, Malam said:

Which levels of CMC and Saxon did you go through? Wouldn't going through the daily lessons take one year per year? How did you go through k-6 by 2nd grade?

Here's the story so far:

When she was 5.5, I started the Give Your Child a Superior Mind curriculum, more or less the math that Engelmann and Bereiter were teaching at their Urbana preschool in 1964-1966. "Superior Mind" is hard to find, but I discovered much later that essentially the same thing is outlined in Chapter 10 of this book, which someone has scanned and put online. We finished right around the time she turned 6. 

At the time, I thought that "Superior Mind" and "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" were the only Engelmann products that could be used at home. For nine months after finishing it, I improvised math lessons. At first, largely cribbing from Beast Academy, but I grew to like that less and less over those months.

In month 6 or 7 of that period, I found this blog, where a UK teacher went into some detail about how CMC works. I was able to adapt the fraction lessons she outlines there, and was really impressed. I got optimistic that the whole program would work at home after all. I also learned that @mathmarm was using the Engelmann classroom products at home, very successfully. I took her advice and searched for the programs on ebay. There is something tricky about this: each program has several components and it is hard to find information online about which components are necessary.

At the beginning of 1st grade, we started CMC Level E (which might be 4th grade math, if Level A is kindergarten). This wasn't a very thoughtful placement: if I did it again I would start further back, maybe way further back. But Level E was the first program I found all pieces of. I tried out Lesson 1 as an experiment and it seemed to work well, so we just kept going. We went through one lesson every day for about 50 days, then (as the lessons got more time consuming) slowed down to one lesson every two days for the rest of the year. Altogether the program took us 200 days, we finished a little less than a year ago.

She learned all kinds of really sophisticated stuff from Level E, but after finishing it her "math facts" were still very weak. She was still skip-counting to find 6x4 and so on, did nothing from memory. It slowed her down a lot. Because of this, and also partly as a nod to "summer vacation," we didn't start Level F right away but spent the summer doing "Correct Math Multiplication" and "Corrective Math Division," two other Engelmann products that are supposed to be remedial. For both programs, we started with Lesson 27, not Lesson 1, finished in September of 2022. Then Level F took us until the middle of February.

1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

I also like the Math circle lessons and problems from the University of Waterloo as a way to go broad.

New to me and looks very interesting!

[Porridge]

17 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

Uhhhh... I honestly don't know. We're just taking things one semester at a time right now.

He's 5th grade by age and just took his calc 2 final at the university today. He's signed up for calc 3 in the fall and it sounds like they expect him to take either diff eq or linear algebra in the spring. Then for 7th grade...? Proof writing for math/stat majors and whichever of diff eq or linear algebra he hasn't yet taken? Sometime in the next year or so he probably needs to meet with an advisor to get things figured out.

There's still plenty of math available, though. It sounds like he should be able to continue taking one math class per semester (not summers) and not run out of math all the way through high school. He's super spikey with barely-accelerated language arts and delayed social/emotional skills, so we don't have any intention of graduating him early at this time. 

Thanks @Cake and Pi! My question was poorly worded - I didn't mean what's your high school plan for math. I meant, do you also plan to unschool the non-math aspects of high school? But I didn't realize he's only 5th grade by age, so you have tons of time to figure that out!

Edited April 29, 2023 by Porridge

[Malam]

@Not_a_Numberthis is a bit off-topic, but since your inbox is full, I was wondering if you could give me access to the "In Depth Math Discussion" forum?

[Not_a_Number]

36 minutes ago, Malam said:

@Not_a_Numberthis is a bit off-topic, but since your inbox is full, I was wondering if you could give me access to the "In Depth Math Discussion" forum?

Ooh, better clear it.

I will, although it’s pretty quiet in there right now!! Worth reviving, though…

[Cake and Pi]

On 4/28/2023 at 8:14 PM, Malam said:

You don't need to continue the linear path for math/engineering majors. You could, for example, spend a year on "elementary" (precalculus) competition math with AoPS volumes 1 and 2, and take the AMC 10 (which he should be doing anyways). Also check out Epsilon camp and other math camps - they could be a great opportunity for him to meet other kids like him 

He's in a competition math club and works with the AMC 10/12 group of kids weekly, plus 1-2 math competitions per month. He already took the AoPS intro and intermediate C&P and intro to NT classes (they haven't offered a section of intermediate NT during the school year that fits with our schedule yet). And he attended Epsilon camp for a couple of summers, but it cost's like $6,000+ to go and we just couldn't fit it in the family budget this year after a change in heath coverage for our medically complex youngest kiddo. I think he'll be too old for Epsilon by next summer. Sleep-away camps for older kids aren't a fit for his S/E development just yet, but I have considered C&! for next year, depending on what finances look like. I do expect him to do some branching out into computer science soon, and he's limited to two university courses per semester while he's got non-degree-seeking status, so there will certainly be some detours in the coming years!

[Cake and Pi]

On 4/28/2023 at 10:35 PM, UHP said:

Could you tell something about what he was doing in 3rd and 4th grade? I'm very curious.

My 2nd grader isn't crazy about math, doesn't study it or play with it on her own outside of our daily lessons. But by now those lessons have brought us through the usual K-6 curriculum and 30% of the way through Saxon's Algebra 1. It's conceivable we'll be finished with Algebra 1 at the end of the summer. I've been having a hard time picturing the next few years.

I gave him the most challenging, in-depth math I could find, which was Beast Academy and then AoPS with a sprinkling of EMF (Elements of Mathematics Foundations). I also usually ran multiple curricula at the same time until he hit AoPS Intro to Algebra. I wasn't necessarily trying to slow him down, though I'm sure it did to some extent, but I wanted to make sure that if he was zooming ahead it was with the most rock solid foundation I could possibly provide.

So 1st grade was Beast Academy 4 and 5, AoPS Prealgebra, Intro to Algebra A (the class for the 1st half of the book), and Intro to C&P. 

2nd grade was AoPS Intro to Algebra B, Intro to NT, Intro to Geometry, and a lot of Intermediate Algebra, plus the first 5 courses in EMF... because he thought it was fun and interesting.

In the first three months of 3rd grade he finished up AoPS Intermediate Algebra. Then he got really, really, really sick and didn't do any math (or much of anything else besides an online science class he was passionate about) for the rest of the school year. I don't understand what happened, but it was like his brain stopped working. He forgot how to even add 2-digit numbers for a while there. It was frightening. That summer he was mostly recovered and started from scratch relearning basically all the math he'd previously learned up to that point.

A couple of months into 4th grade he resumed where he'd left off but at a much slower pace. He only did AoPS Precalculus and Intermediate C&P and EMF modules 6-9 (again, just for fun) that year.

I'll say that Saxon is absolutely fantastic for teaching math computations, but only meh for problem solving and application. I taught Saxon Algebra 1 to high schoolers at a small charter school one year, and the problems it were significantly easier than what I'd seen in AoPS Prealgebra. I'd encourage you to look into AoPS (maybe even back up and do some Beast Academy) and EMF. Those would be my top choices for a very accelerated younger math student. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Cake and Pi

[Cake and Pi]

On 4/24/2023 at 9:02 AM, Lawyer&Mom said:

I should say that Dd9 is in school, so both math and language arts are being covered, if not at her true level.  I’m looking at gifted enrichment classes as a source of challenge and additional social opportunities.  The choice is language arts class vs. math class.  Ideally she could do both, but it would probably be an excessive financial and time commitment.  

I say ask her what she wants to do and go with that. Enrichment should be fun!

[Cake and Pi]

On 4/29/2023 at 8:47 AM, UHP said:

For 1.5 years, I used a program called Connecting Math Concepts, which really did have daily scripted lessons. We finished them in February and started Saxon, which is less transparent and requires a lot more daily preparation for me.

Saxon was recommended to me by another fan of CMC, in fact very highly recommended. But it came with a warning to only use the third edition.

What does it mean, go broad?

Oh! I like Direct Instruction! A couple of my kids learned to read with 100 EZ Lessons, and I used CMC with my developmentally disabled DS#4 for a year before we moved him back into public school. Kiddo did better with CMC than any of the other curricula we tried (Right Start, Math U See, Ronit Bird, local public school math). He never finished the kindergarten level, though. I'm out of littles to teach, but I'm very curious about the upper levels. However, if it's similar to Saxon, I guess I'd worry that it would be too straightforward and easy (as in, not enough true problem solving or out-of-the-box applications) for a very math gifted/accelerated kid.

[UHP]

1 hour ago, Cake and Pi said:

I'll say that Saxon is absolutely fantastic for teaching math computations, but only meh for problem solving and application. I taught Saxon Algebra 1 to high schoolers at a small charter school one year, and the problems it were significantly easier than what I'd seen in AoPS Prealgebra. I'd encourage you to look into AoPS (maybe even back up and do some Beast Academy) and EMF. Those would be my top choices for a very accelerated younger math student. 

...

Oh! I like Direct Instruction! A couple of my kids learned to read with 100 EZ Lessons, and I used CMC with my developmentally disabled DS#4 for a year before we moved him back into public school. Kiddo did better with CMC than any of the other curricula we tried (Right Start, Math U See, Ronit Bird, local public school math). He never finished the kindergarten level, though. I'm out of littles to teach, but I'm very curious about the upper levels. However, if it's similar to Saxon, I guess I'd worry that it would be too straightforward and easy (as in, not enough true problem solving or out-of-the-box applications) for a very math gifted/accelerated kid.

My first exposure to Saxon was one of the grade-school books, maybe "Saxon 2" meant for second graders, years ago when I was still deciding whether to homeschool. I was not impressed at all, and more recently was surprised when a DI professional told me (when I asked what to do after CMC) to check out Saxon Algebra 1. The explanation or accusation I heard is that the grade school program was written after John Saxon had died, possibly for kind of cynical reasons. Similarly I was warned that after Saxon died the publisher "ruined" the Algebra program with their 4th edition. I don't know how accurate this is, I took the advice without checking it out for myself.

I can imagine the DI professional and CMC fan I talked to scowling at the idea that the later levels of CMC are comparable to the grade school texts published by Saxon the company (which he did not respect) but not written by Saxon the author (whom he respected a lot).

But I can see in the Saxon problems something in common with the CMC problems. They are like you say easy, *in a way*. In Saxon, every problem on every problem set (anyway, so far) is of the same type taught or at least modeled earlier in the book. If it is the first problem of its kind, it was introduced in the very same lesson. If it was introduced many lessons ago, there is a little parenthetical annotation that reminds you exactly where. CMC is structured pretty differently in the details, but it too has a tremendous amount of scaffolding (often really ingenious scaffolding) and the students are never presented with a problem that the problem's author thought they would have trouble solving.

This kind of handholding approach has lots of pitfalls, if the course designer had a superficial grasp of either the material or of the learning process. Maybe the kids will be taught how to add and multiply fractions, without ever realizing that fractions can be compared to whole numbers and indeed that some fractions are equal to whole numbers. Maybe they will be taught some procedure for column addition and subtraction, but get easily confused about which operation is called for in simple word problems. I grew to trust CMC a lot for having anticipated and guarded against these kinds of pitfalls, partly from experience, partly from reading some of the theory, and partly from reading the memoirs of the program's creator.

I don't have the same trust in John Saxon, who doesn't lay out his process or his thinking in very great detail anywhere that I have found. But 37 lessons in, the program is growing on me.

When the pitfalls are addresssed, there are virtues in "this kind of handholding approach." For me, the big one is that when a kid gets one of these easy problems *wrong*, it is because she has misunderstood something *small.* You, the tutor, are very well situated to remedy the misunderstanding.

AOPS advertises that its kids are constantly being challenged with tricky problems. What leaves me nonplussed about this, is what the tutor can learn from the pupil's mistakes. If she gets a tricky problem wrong or gets stuck, it's not because she is misunderstanding or just missing one thing. It could be many diffuse things, and what is the right course of action to take as the teacher? The answer I've heard, "Well, she just wasn't ready for that problem. We don't expect kids to be able to solve all or even most of the problems in our book," doesn't satisfy me.

[Cake and Pi]

17 minutes ago, UHP said:

AOPS advertises that its kids are constantly being challenged with tricky problems. What leaves me nonplussed about this, is what the tutor can learn from the pupil's mistakes. If she gets a tricky problem wrong or gets stuck, it's not because she is misunderstanding or just missing one thing. It could be many diffuse things, and what is the right course of action to take as the teacher? The answer I've heard, "Well, she just wasn't ready for that problem. We don't expect kids to be able to solve all or even most of the problems in our book," doesn't satisfy me.

I guess it comes down to figuring out what kind of mistake the student made. Depending on the kind of mistake, the instructor can figure out if the student is making silly errors (from impulsivity, poor handwriting, lost negatives, more basic miscalculations), correctly executing an incorrectly applied method, or if the mistake reveals that the student lacks understanding of a new process or concept that is being taught. Then remediation goes from there. Most kids really will come across problems they can't figure out how to solve on their own. With some hints, they can probably get there. Sometimes they just need to read the solution.

But, yeah, AoPS does not scaffold *at all,* so it's not going to be a viable program for a kid who usually or often needs math broken down into tiny steps. Honestly, it's not likely to be a great fit or even average or above average math students. The program is written specifically for especially high performing math kids who don't need the scaffolding of traditional curricula and can instead focus on creative problem solving. AoPS assumes the student will grasp the concept and process quickly and easily with minimal explanation. In fact, AoPS will push the student discover it themself! Then AoPS will ask the student to use that newly discovered concept and apply it to novel situations without modeling or explaining how. AoPS be like, "Here's a little creek. Figure out how to get across it. Good job. By the way, here's how we would have done it. Okay, now that you have that figured out, go ahead and cross this enormous river. Good luck, and if you get too terribly stuck there's a cryptic hint for this one at the back of the book."

[8filltheheart]

@Cake and Pi That is a wonderful description of AoPS!  I agree with your assessment.  Out of 3 gifted math students, AoPS has only been a good choice for 1 of my kids, the one who thought/saw math in the way he viewed the world.  The other 2 are equally good at math in terms of "doing math" but, no, they didn't want to think about math the way AoPS wants students to process it.  One thinks about languages and literature that way.  The other music.  For them, AoPS is too time consuming and requires too much of their mental processing time that they would rather spend on other things.  For ds, however, it is what his brain was already always doing.....seeing and solving mathematically.

[Malam]

10 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

the class for the 1st half of the book

Did you run into any developmental issues, like slow/non-existent typing speed? Why did you choose to start with BA4 instead of 3?

11 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

he's limited to two university courses per semester while he's got non-degree-seeking status

11 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

plus 1-2 math competitions per month

By the university or by the state? Which math competitions occur monthly? Also, if he wants to go deeper into the math competition sphere, there are olympiad books out there more advanced than AoPS' books.

[Amoret]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

Out of 3 gifted math students, AoPS has only been a good choice for 1 of my kids, the one who thought/saw math in the way he viewed the world.  The other 2 are equally good at math in terms of "doing math" but, no, they didn't want to think about math the way AoPS wants students to process it. 

What do you use for geometry and other upper level classes instead? My DD13 loved Math Mammoth and thrived with it, then was bored to tears with Foerster's Algebra, and is doing really well with AOPS Intro to Algebra, but she doesn't love it the way my DS15 does. She'll finish Intro to Algebra by early fall, but I am looking ahead to the Geometry book and I am not sure that is going to be a good fit. I want something solid and rigorous, but not rigorous in the same way. I have Jacobs Geometry, but it seems so lightweight in comparison. We aren't interested in online classes for math, but I'll check out any textbook.

[8filltheheart]

We used an older version of this text Elementary Geometry  It definitely does not approach math like AoPS.  My girls didn't care if math was boring.  They just wanted to get it done.  FWIW, we didn't discover AoPS until ds was in 8th grade, so he did alg 1&2 with Foerster's and that geo book.  His first AoPS course was intermediate alg in 8th. He had zero problems transitioning to AoPS.  So, though "boring," Foerster's texts obviously prepared him for what he needed to know.