Backpacked the 77 mile Foothills Trail-I highly recommend it!

[AngelaGT]

https://foothillstrail.org/

6 days and 5 nights to complete the 77 mile trail.  It has a huge amount of incredible waterfalls while hiking near a river most of the time.  A lot of ups and downs and rivals the AT in beauty.  A must for day hiking and thru hiking for those who love the outdoors.

Edited April 14, 2023 by AngelaGT

[jen3kids]

Beautiful!  Sounds like a great trip and one to add to my bucket list!

[Ausmumof3]

Wow what an amazing effort! It looks stunning.

[Ottakee]

That is amazing.  Did you backpack it all?   Looks like a trail I would love.

we have never done that many miles but are looking at Isle Royale this summer which is about 50

[Ottakee]

How difficult is the trail?  Water access?

is it campgrounds or dispersed camping?

would love to know more about your gear, footwear, food, etc.

[Rachel]

Congratulations!
 

I’m jealous you were able to complete it. My older two kids and I set out to hike it at the beginning of March. Unexpected weather conditions caused us to bail. We ended up only doing an overnight hiking to Sassafras and back. That climb up Sassafras is brutal! 

We don’t really have another full week to be able to attempt it all at once again until this fall. But we are thinking about breaking it into two sections and doing it over two long weekends. 

[Faith-manor]

Amazing! Looks so beautiful.

[Miss Tick]

1 hour ago, Ottakee said:

How difficult is the trail?  Water access?

is it campgrounds or dispersed camping?

would love to know more about your gear, footwear, food, etc.

+1! How many days did you spend covering the 77 miles? We're you alone or with others? 😄 Sorry to pepper you with questions, I'm hearing up for a shorter trip in 2 weeks and trying to think of everything!

[AngelaGT]

10 hours ago, Ottakee said:

That is amazing.  Did you backpack it all?   Looks like a trail I would love.

we have never done that many miles but are looking at Isle Royale this summer which is about 50

Backpacked every mile! I backpacked 40 miles on Isle Royale a couple of summers ago and absolutely loved it.  The loons calling, the wolves howling, and the amazingly clear Lake Superior-fabulous!

[AngelaGT]

10 hours ago, Ottakee said:

How difficult is the trail?  Water access?

is it campgrounds or dispersed camping?

would love to know more about your gear, footwear, food, etc.

The trail is difficult because of the elevation gains and losses, but very well marked and maintained.  At times it can be very rocky and rooty with some scrambling needed and several areas have ladder steps, but it is mostly a well trodden trail.  Volunteers maintain sections of the trail.  Water is absolutely no difficulty, because most often the trail is on a river or near a river, stream, creek, or waterfall.  Campgrounds are marked so that planning water access and mileage is easier, but camping is allowed at your discretion.  No permits needed.

Gear has been collected over many years by my husband and son, who did much backpacking with the Scouts (achieving Eagle).  My pack weighed in at 25 pounds and was manageable though heavier than the recommended 20% of your body weight.  Every piece of gear, clothing, personal items, and food have to be assessed based on weight and absolute necessity.  Each experience is a learning experience and I am learning what is not needed for the next trip and what is.  This trip we purchased down puffy jackets that are less than a pound and zip into their own pocket.  Those were a lifesaver, because a couple of the mornings were extremely cold.  I also learned that I could do without a few "must have" personal items.  I am going to start looking into ultralight backpacking.

One important note-all food must be high in calories, such a different notion from how most of us live. I ate so many highly sugary Cliff bars and date bars that I thought I would puke, but every single calorie was burned and much needed.

[AngelaGT]

9 hours ago, Miss Tick said:

+1! How many days did you spend covering the 77 miles? We're you alone or with others? 😄 Sorry to pepper you with questions, I'm hearing up for a shorter trip in 2 weeks and trying to think of everything!

Backpacked it in 6 days and 5 nights.  Averaged about 13 mile a day.  Husband was with me.  Children are older and could not take time off of work to join.  It can be section hiked.  Lots of information online for planning.

[Ottakee]

@AngelaGT thanks for more details.  

I currently have a pack weight about 25 pounds, depending on food/water needs.

We aim for at least 100 calories per ounce of food we are carrying but might need to up that to 125-150/oz for longer trips.  What was your goal?

We all have the puffy jackets and they double well as a pillow.

what trail did you do on Isle Royale?   Tony (my friends brother) wants to do the ridge trail point to point with a fly on drop off and pick up.

was there any cell signal on the foothills trail?   We are looking at a Garmin in reach for Isle Royale.

I am still searching for the best footwear.  I love my Oboz Sypes boots but got a blister with them in Utah as I think the toe box is just a bit too curved by my big toe for lots of elevation Gaona (1100 feet up, across a ridge and 1100 ft down) in just a few miles.   Heading to REI on Monday to try some Altras.

How busy was the Foothills Trail?   I know the AT can be quite busy.

[AngelaGT]

2 hours ago, Ottakee said:

@AngelaGT thanks for more details.  

I currently have a pack weight about 25 pounds, depending on food/water needs.

We aim for at least 100 calories per ounce of food we are carrying but might need to up that to 125-150/oz for longer trips.  What was your goal?

We all have the puffy jackets and they double well as a pillow.

what trail did you do on Isle Royale?   Tony (my friends brother) wants to do the ridge trail point to point with a fly on drop off and pick up.

was there any cell signal on the foothills trail?   We are looking at a Garmin in reach for Isle Royale.

I am still searching for the best footwear.  I love my Oboz Sypes boots but got a blister with them in Utah as I think the toe box is just a bit too curved by my big toe for lots of elevation Gaona (1100 feet up, across a ridge and 1100 ft down) in just a few miles.   Heading to REI on Monday to try some Altras.

How busy was the Foothills Trail?   I know the AT can be quite busy.

I don't think we planned calorie per ounce, but that is a good idea. Each morning started with a cup of microground coffee.  A couple of hours into the trail was a high calorie Cliff bar.  Several hours later was a packet of tuna or salmon with gf crackers (for me) or a wrap (for husband). a string cheese, and a date bar https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BS4C4V5?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1. At the conclusion of the days hiking and after pumping water was a dehydrated meal that my husband created and 3 Simple Mills gf cookies. Every day was the same, very glad to be done with that! We had cell signal a couple of times-crossing a major road and at the top of Sassafras Mtn.

We did not do the ridge trail while at Isle Royale, because I really wanted to be by the water.  We crossed the ridge quite a bit and hiked on it some. Moskey Basin was my favorite.  There are about 10 shelters at most sites near the water and it was heavenly to set up camp inside of one.  We backpacked Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore https://www.alltrails.com/parks/us/michigan/pictured-rocks-national-lakeshore/backpacking prior to heading over to Isle Royale.  It was also incredible.

I used Hoka trail runners on this last backpacking trip and they were great.  As silly as it seems, but the weight of your shoes makes a huge difference in your overall ease of experience.  During the warmer months, good trail runners that will dry out quickly (not waterproofed) are often preferred.  My midtop hiking boots are Solomon. I had Oboz prior and also loved them.  They took me to Everest Base Camp. 

The Foothills was busy, but not as busy as expected.  It was wonderful to see old-er people backpacking it-thru and section.  It was also great to be able to start and finish something.  I do love that feeling of accomplishment.  Spring and fall are a great time to hike the Foothills.  Many flowers were in bloom and all the trees had the bright spring green color.  Simply lovely. The heat, humidity, and bugs can be brutal during the summer months.

We have so much beauty here in the States that I don't think we can go wrong anywhere we go at anytime as long as we have the right attitude and eyes to observe, accept, and enjoy.

 

[Miss Tick]

@AngelaGT  Thanks for all the details. My solo hike is in a few weeks and I'm excited and nervous. It has been 20 years since my last big trip.

[AngelaGT]

9 minutes ago, Miss Tick said:

@AngelaGT  Thanks for all the details. My solo hike is in a few weeks and I'm excited and nervous. It has been 20 years since my last big trip.

2 hours ago, Ottakee said:

@AngelaGT thanks for more details.  

I currently have a pack weight about 25 pounds, depending on food/water needs.

We aim for at least 100 calories per ounce of food we are carrying but might need to up that to 125-150/oz for longer trips.  What was your goal?

We all have the puffy jackets and they double well as a pillow.

what trail did you do on Isle Royale?   Tony (my friends brother) wants to do the ridge trail point to point with a fly on drop off and pick up.

was there any cell signal on the foothills trail?   We are looking at a Garmin in reach for Isle Royale.

I am still searching for the best footwear.  I love my Oboz Sypes boots but got a blister with them in Utah as I think the toe box is just a bit too curved by my big toe for lots of elevation Gaona (1100 feet up, across a ridge and 1100 ft down) in just a few miles.   Heading to REI on Monday to try some Altras.

How busy was the Foothills Trail?   I know the AT can be quite busy.

You may already know this, but I highly recommend taking electrolyte tablets.  I use the Rapid Rehydr8 and salt.  I use Redmond Real sea salt course ground (both on Amazon). Make sure everyone has at least 2 electrolyte tablets a day and a pinch or two of salt each day. And of course, drink plenty of water.

[Miss Tick]

3 hours ago, Ottakee said:

I currently have a pack weight about 25 pounds, depending on food/water needs.

Thanks for the reminder about actually weighing my pack! I'm borrowing a tent from my ds and after I set it up and break it back down I'll be sure to weigh it and start a tally.

34 minutes ago, AngelaGT said:

I use the Rapid Rehydr8 and salt. 

Is the salt to help you absorb the electrolytes, or does the electrolyte drink not sufficiently replace what you lose?

Do either of you have recommendations for biodegradable soap?

[Faith-manor]

I will live vicariously through you! Since the car accident, I have permanent disabilities that prevent me from doing more than beginner, or slightly intermediate trails. I am just so impressed with you, Regentrude, and Ottakee for all the hiking you tackle.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Faith-manor
Typo

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Miss Tick said:

Thanks for the reminder about actually weighing my pack! I'm borrowing a tent from my ds and after I set it up and break it back down I'll be sure to weigh it and start a tally.

Is the salt to help you absorb the electrolytes, or does the electrolyte drink not sufficiently replace what you lose?

Do either of you have recommendations for biodegradable soap?

We have a do no harm camping philosophy and use Castile soap. I asked a DNR officer about it, and he recommended it. I have a small bottle of liquid for washing dishes, and two bars for our personal use.

[regentrude]

Re biodegradable soap: make sure to dispose of soapy water away from all water sources. Just because it's biodegradable,  it's still not okay to be used in a stream. 

[AngelaGT]

3 hours ago, Miss Tick said:

Thanks for the reminder about actually weighing my pack! I'm borrowing a tent from my ds and after I set it up and break it back down I'll be sure to weigh it and start a tally.

Is the salt to help you absorb the electrolytes, or does the electrolyte drink not sufficiently replace what you lose?

Do either of you have recommendations for biodegradable soap?

Depending on the heat and humidity and how much you sweat, you will sweat out a lot of salt and you desperately need it to maintain electrolyte balance and retain water.  My husband and I almost always run low on sodium (in blood work) and have low blood pressure.  Salt helps to keep everything in working order.  Most people run high in sodium due to their diets or possibly genetics and have high blood pressure.  I would carry it as most electrolyte tablets have little sodium in them.

I used Castile soap.

Edited April 15, 2023 by AngelaGT

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, AngelaGT said:

I don't think we planned calorie per ounce, but that is a good idea. Each morning started with a cup of microground coffee.  A couple of hours into the trail was a high calorie Cliff bar.  Several hours later was a packet of tuna or salmon with gf crackers (for me) or a wrap (for husband). a string cheese, and a date bar https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BS4C4V5?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1. At the conclusion of the days hiking and after pumping water was a dehydrated meal that my husband created and 3 Simple Mills gf cookies. Every day was the same, very glad to be done with that!

Is that all you ate??? I'd be starving. We start with breakfast, 3 bags instant oatmeal plus freeze dried fruit.

We just did a 5 day/4 night in the Grand Canyon. Started at 35/27 lbs, finished at 29/21lbs. 

We ate (according to my packing list, and pretty consistent with last year's trip):

200g chocolate

almost 1 lb Trail mix
170 g dried apricots,
170 g dried mango,
70 g beef Jerry 
2 pck a 14 Sausage sticks
2 bag trisket
1 pck cheese sticks 8 oz
3 bagels
3 apples (yes I know super heavy but a luxury we enjoyed)
1 loaf pumpkin bread

1 pan brownies
16 bars a 40g
4 X 70g tuna
4x 3 baggies instant oatmeal
34 g freeze dried strawberry
34 g freeze dried apples
4 bags instant hot chocolate

5 dehydrated backpacking meals

Edited April 15, 2023 by regentrude

[Faith-manor]

30 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Is that all you ate??? I'd be starving. We start with breakfast, 3 bags instant oatmeal plus freeze dried fruit.

I was just thinking about this. Our two youngest are avid hikers. They would really like to take a week and backpack in the Adirondacks. But, middle son is on a strict 3500 calorie a day diet due to being medically underweight. (6'2" and 125 lbs). He is healthy, but he cannot lose weight. Backpacking enough in is a real problem. I feel like they need to have a base camp and do one day hikes from there so they can store food in their vehicle. Ultimately, they would love to be in the wilds just backpacking for 6 days.

[Miss Tick]

6 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I was just thinking about this. Our two youngest are avid hikers. They would really like to take a week and backpack in the Adirondacks. But, middle son is on a strict 3500 calorie a day diet due to being medically underweight. (6'2" and 125 lbs). He is healthy, but he cannot lose weight. Backpacking enough in is a real problem. I feel like they need to have a base camp and do one day hikes from there so they can store food in their vehicle. Ultimately, they would love to be in the wilds just backpacking for 6 days.

When I was hiking across Arizona, my mom met us at a road crossing and brought the most delicious sandwich lunches. I don't know where you live relative to where they live, but maybe you could be their Chuckwagon 😄. You are right that not losing weight can be tricky, especially if they are hiking somewhere that they need to carry water

[AngelaGT]

44 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Is that all you ate??? I'd be starving. We start with breakfast, 3 bags instant oatmeal plus freeze dried fruit.

We just did a 5 day/4 night in the Grand Canyon. Started at 35/27 lbs, finished at 29/21lbs. 

We ate (according to my packing list, and pretty consistent with last year's trip):

200g chocolate

almost 1 lb Trail mix
170 g dried apricots,
170 g dried mango,
70 g beef Jerry 
2 pck a 14 Sausage sticks
2 bag trisket
1 pck cheese sticks 8 oz
3 bagels
3 apples (yes I know super heavy but a luxury we enjoyed)
1 loaf pumpkin bread

1 pan brownies
16 bars a 40g
4 X 70g tuna
4x 3 baggies instant oatmeal
34 g freeze dried strawberry
34 g freeze dried apples
4 bags instant hot chocolate

5 dehydrated backpacking meals

Carrying the weight of the food is the issue.  Fortunately, no weight was lost and energy was sustained. Being petite puts me at a major disadvantage when it comes to carrying a backpack heavier than 25 pounds. Husband is not very big either. Appetites were satisfied, but I disliked the amount of necessary sugar consumed.

[Guest]

What a fabulous trip! I would love to do a trip like this. I love all the details you and others are sharing. 

[Selkie]

That looks like an amazing trip!

This thread reminds me of a recent interview on Chef AJ Live with a 70 y.o. woman who hikes long distances all over the world. Her name is Ruth Morley. I'm not a hiker, but it was so interesting!

She went into a lot of detail about what she carries in her pack and what food she takes. There was so much interest from viewers that she is going to come back for another episode to talk more about her food and how she makes it. She makes whole food plant based meals and dehydrates them, then rehydrates them on the trail.

If anyone is interested, here's the episode:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw8plD1ZlN0

And here is Ruth's blog:

https://thetrek.co/author/ruth-morley/

[skimomma]

On 4/15/2023 at 10:33 AM, AngelaGT said:

 

I used Hoka trail runners on this last backpacking trip and they were great.  As silly as it seems, but the weight of your shoes makes a huge difference in your overall ease of experience.  During the warmer months, good trail runners that will dry out quickly (not waterproofed) are often preferred.  My midtop hiking boots are Solomon. I had Oboz prior and also loved them.  They took me to Everest Base Camp. 

 

 

I was going to ask about your footwear!  I am doing Isle Royale this summer with some girlfriends.  We all have extensive backpacking experience but I confess that my gear is OLD and therefore quite heavy.  I will be at about 40#, maybe more, which is about double the recommended percentage for my body weight, but that is what I have been carrying for years.  My last pair of hiking boots blew out a couple of years ago.  I did a short trip last year (30ish miles over four days) wearing just hiking shoes and I really liked it.  Those have also worn out and I need to buy and break in something.  I was debating between traditional boots, hiking shoes, or trail runners.  I was leaning towards the trail runners but got nervous with the rocky terrain and heavy load.  I also have a pair of inexpensive Columbia hiking boots that seem super light, likely because they are not very traditionally "sturdy" but could be a good compromise.  I just don't know!  It's not like I can bring a variety so I need to figure this out!

 

[regentrude]

44 minutes ago, skimomma said:

I was going to ask about your footwear!  I am doing Isle Royale this summer with some girlfriends.  We all have extensive backpacking experience but I confess that my gear is OLD and therefore quite heavy.  I will be at about 40#, maybe more, which is about double the recommended percentage for my body weight, but that is what I have been carrying for years.  My last pair of hiking boots blew out a couple of years ago.  I did a short trip last year (30ish miles over four days) wearing just hiking shoes and I really liked it.  Those have also worn out and I need to buy and break in something.  I was debating between traditional boots, hiking shoes, or trail runners.  I was leaning towards the trail runners but got nervous with the rocky terrain and heavy load.  I also have a pair of inexpensive Columbia hiking boots that seem super light, likely because they are not very traditionally "sturdy" but could be a good compromise.  I just don't know!  It's not like I can bring a variety so I need to figure this out!

 

It really depends on the terrain and your feet. I can wear light Keen Newport hiking shoes on trails in the Ozarks but absolutely need my Oboz Bridger boots when hiking in steep terrain, off trail, with scree fields or very rocky ground.

( my feet need more arc support and stiffness than trail runners can offer, and couldn't even wear those in town. I need custom insoles)

[Ottakee]

8 hours ago, skimomma said:

I was going to ask about your footwear!  I am doing Isle Royale this summer with some girlfriends.  We all have extensive backpacking experience but I confess that my gear is OLD and therefore quite heavy.  I will be at about 40#, maybe more, which is about double the recommended percentage for my body weight, but that is what I have been carrying for years.  My last pair of hiking boots blew out a couple of years ago.  I did a short trip last year (30ish miles over four days) wearing just hiking shoes and I really liked it.  Those have also worn out and I need to buy and break in something.  I was debating between traditional boots, hiking shoes, or trail runners.  I was leaning towards the trail runners but got nervous with the rocky terrain and heavy load.  I also have a pair of inexpensive Columbia hiking boots that seem super light, likely because they are not very traditionally "sturdy" but could be a good compromise.  I just don't know!  It's not like I can bring a variety so I need to figure this out!

 

When are you going and what trails?  That is a strong possibility for my friend and I this summer.

any wY you could borrow some lighter gear for the trip?   40# would do me in quickly.

[skimomma]

19 hours ago, Ottakee said:

When are you going and what trails?  That is a strong possibility for my friend and I this summer.

any wY you could borrow some lighter gear for the trip?   40# would do me in quickly.

We're going in August and staying on the west end of the island.  There is a 30-ish mile loop on that end that will be the base of our trip with a possible excursion up to the north end.

I could borrow some lighter gear but we know we will be traveling heavy because there is one night in which we won't have access to water so we have to carry enough for two days.  And I have to balance weight with familiarity.  Luckily I do have a very light tent.  I have packed 40+ pounds many times so it should be OK.  20 years ago I packed across IR in late October so I was more like 50# with heavier clothing and a lot more food and fuel.  It snowed for half the trip!  I would not try that now!

[regentrude]

15 minutes ago, skimomma said:

 because there is one night in which we won't have access to water so we have to carry enough for two days.  

Are there no water sources at all for two entire days? On a lake island?

We've done dry camps but usually managed to cook dinner at the last water source and then find water again on the 2nd day, so we only had to carry enough for evening and breakfast.

Edited April 18, 2023 by regentrude

[skimomma]

18 hours ago, regentrude said:

Are there no water sources at all for two entire days? On a lake island?

We've done dry camps but usually managed to cook dinner at the last water source and then find water again on the 2nd day, so we only had to carry enough for evening and breakfast.

Yes.  The campsite we will be staying at is inland.  It has a creek nearby but it is usually dry by mid-August.  So we can't count on it.  We will likely plan to have a hearty cooked meal for breakfast before setting off, be as conservative as possible that day and overnight.  We should be at a water source again by lunch the next day.  We are actually hoping to bypass that site and carry on to the next campsite (which has water access) but that will mean a much longer hike and we are not sure we can all manage it so need to be prepared to stay.  

There are actually a handful of campsites on the island that do not have a reliable water source at times.

[Ottakee]

On 4/19/2023 at 11:42 AM, skimomma said:

Yes.  The campsite we will be staying at is inland.  It has a creek nearby but it is usually dry by mid-August.  So we can't count on it.  We will likely plan to have a hearty cooked meal for breakfast before setting off, be as conservative as possible that day and overnight.  We should be at a water source again by lunch the next day.  We are actually hoping to bypass that site and carry on to the next campsite (which has water access) but that will mean a much longer hike and we are not sure we can all manage it so need to be prepared to stay.  

There are actually a handful of campsites on the island that do not have a reliable water source at times.

Is this the Feldtmann loop?   Heading there next week to do that loop if weather cooperates.   Not sure if we will stop at Island mine or not as it has been so dry there might not be water there….so we will see but might try to get all the way back to Washington creek.

[Elizabeth86]

Where does this trail start and end?

[AngelaGT]

9 hours ago, Elizabeth86 said:

Where does this trail start and end?

Started at Oconee State Park and ended at Table Rock State Park or visa versa.  In SC.

[DawnM]

Awesome!   I am glad you were able to do what you enjoy.

[skimomma]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:44 PM, Ottakee said:

Is this the Feldtmann loop?   Heading there next week to do that loop if weather cooperates.   Not sure if we will stop at Island mine or not as it has been so dry there might not be water there….so we will see but might try to get all the way back to Washington creek.

Yep.  Island Mine campground.  I do not have reliable intel on the current status but with the drought conditions in the area, I'd bet there is a good chance there is no water in that creek.  We are still hoping to bypass completely but we shall see......

[Ottakee]

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

Yep.  Island Mine campground.  I do not have reliable intel on the current status but with the drought conditions in the area, I'd bet there is a good chance there is no water in that creek.  We are still hoping to bypass completely but we shall see......

I am actually doing that loop next week😀.  We are planning to do Siskiwit to Washington creek or huginnin….depending on how tired we are.

[skimomma]

1 minute ago, Ottakee said:

I am actually doing that loop next week😀.  We are planning to do Siskiwit to Washington creek or huginnin….depending on how tired we are.

It sounds like we are doing similar routes:)  I have not done much hiking on that end of the island so it will be a new experience for me.

[Ottakee]

4 minutes ago, skimomma said:

It sounds like we are doing similar routes:)  I have not done much hiking on that end of the island so it will be a new experience for me.

We have never been to IR so this will be an experience.  Just praying that my knee holds up as this will be the most backpacking I have done day after day

[skimomma]

Just now, Ottakee said:

We have never been to IR so this will be an experience.  Just praying that my knee holds up as this will be the most backpacking I have done day after day

We have someone in our group that broke her ankle 5 weeks ago.  She was just cleared to bear weight on it while wearing a walking cast.  We are all concerned that she will have trouble carrying a heavy pack for 10+ miles each day.  We have 6 weeks until our trip.  Fingers crossed!

[Ottakee]

2 minutes ago, skimomma said:

We have someone in our group that broke her ankle 5 weeks ago.  She was just cleared to bear weight on it while wearing a walking cast.  We are all concerned that she will have trouble carrying a heavy pack for 10+ miles each day.  We have 6 weeks until our trip.  Fingers crossed!

Ouch:   Maybe you can share some loads and you each cart a few pounds of her weight to help out.

we are also paring down a lot in what we are bringing….or trying to.  It is the water that will be an issue.  Temps are supposed to be high of 60….but that could mean 60 or 85.   We will be carrying 2-3 liters of water each which gets heavy but hydration is so important.  We have our electrolytes packed too.