I am failing teaching my boys to write. Please help!

[BusyMom5]

I just want to cry.  I feel like all of 9th grade has been one giant failure when it comes to writing.  Its always been the subject that they struggle with the most, but I had hopes that they would turn a corner this year.  What we've done in the past:

Winning with Writing all through elementary 

Art of Argument 

Argument Builder (plus extra lessons made by me about building support for arguments) 

Writing and Rhetoric books 1-3

 

What we've done this year:

Writing and Rhetoric-  books 5 and 6.  I feel like part if it was good, but I spent a full hour with them almost every day working right beside them, coaching them along.  I decided maybe it was too wordy, so got EIW after Christmas For a more streamlined approach. 

Essentials in Writing- I know several homeschoolers who use this and love it.  I do really like the organizers and felt like taking a bit of a break would be good for me.  We just finished thec3rd essay and they are just trash.  One twins isn't too bad, but the other one-, its like repeating the same stuff over snd over.  No thesis, no topic sentences, paragraphs are just a mess.  Like I cannot even help edit bc its just too bad.  

I do think they did write quite a bit, but the quality is low.  I don't even know where to start looking!  I know what they need to know.  I know how to teach it, but the boys just are not receptive at all.  

The one who struggles more explained it like this- he knows how to do a back flip- he knows exactly how it works, he's scene others do it and he knows a good one when he sees it,  but he cannot do a backflip himself.  

I'd like any encouragement or suggestions anyone has.  I don’t even know how to grade this!  

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

11 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

No thesis, no topic sentences, paragraphs are just a mess.  Like I cannot even help edit bc it’s just too bad.  

 

The one who struggles more explained it like this- he knows how to do a back flip- he knows exactly how it works, he's scene others do it and he knows a good one when he sees it,  but he cannot do a backflip himself.  

I'd like any encouragement or suggestions anyone has.  I don’t even know how to grade this!  

For my writing phobic DS18, his only writing in 9th grade was with his history tutor. He could write lab reports and economics short answers but not essays. What we did was work on taking notes and writing essays as bullet points. That helps with topic sentences and structured paragraphs. For 10th and 11th grade he did AP Eng Lang and AP Eng Lit. Those do not need essays and while he didn’t get a 5, he did well enough for college credits. After 11th grade he did all his English at community college and did well. He would probably never write as well as others but he would survive in college. He had to write a resume and a business proposal and multiple public speaking presentations in his community college classes and had no difficulties. So some encouragement for you. 

[BusyMom5]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

For my writing phobic DS18, his only writing in 9th grade was with his history tutor. He could write lab reports and economics short answers but not essays. What we did was work on taking notes and writing essays as bullet points. That helps with topic sentences and structured paragraphs. For 10th and 11th grade he did AP Eng Lang and AP Eng Lit. Those do not need essays and while he didn’t get a 5, he did well enough for college credits. After 11th grade he did all his English at community college and did well. He would probably never write as well as others but he would survive in college. He had to write a resume and a business proposal and multiple public speaking presentations in his community college classes and had no difficulties. So some encouragement for you. 

The essays as bulletin points is a great idea!  I know my boys will not end up in any place that requires them to write.  They just need to pass college English and humanities classes, and after that I think it will be math and science.  

[Clarita]

A game-changer for me was in 11th grade my AP English teacher taught us to write outlines for our essays (as opposed to here's a piece of paper just write). It was super formulaic so definitely people who are writers are probably a bit turned off by it. However the method got me through college and it really helped me when I had to "write" for work. I was an engineer and sometimes you still have to write stuff. 

Technique was write an outline almost like assuming you are going to write a 5 paragraph essay (4 bullet points). First bullet point is the point of your essay/written work. The next 3 bullet points are the supporting ideas. Then go back and flesh out those paragraphs except not in paragraph form but in bullet point form. Continue expanding the outline to make bullet points actual sentences until you can remove the actual points. Then refine the essay with fluff. So the thing flows for people who like to read flowy words as oppose to a bunch of bullet points. 

[Atlas]

I just posted the following on another thread:

For our DD we tried Athena, G3, AOPS LA and finally Integritas. I would say Athena, G3 and AOPS LA were more like entertainment for my DD. In my view Integritas is the most valuable one with infinite shelf life. 

My suggestion is to try Integritas. 

 

[Garga]

Something that helped my youngest with answering literary questions (where you have to read a passage and answer a prompt and use something from the passage to support your answer) was the RACES strategy. You can google it. 

I think RACES could also be used for other types of writing. 

R-retate the question

A-answer the question (this is your “thesis”

C-cite something that supports your answer

E-explain how what you cited aupports your answer 

S-summarize

My son said that you often have to do the CE part of RACES a few times. RA CE CE CE S.

It is a bit like Clarita’s idea about of outlining what you’ll say, but also gives structure to citing/explaining. Non-writers can often cite, but they don’t remember to explain, and the explaining is the part that is usually most important.

When you can get it down pat that you have to cite and then explain, that translates well into other forms of writing that aren’t just literary prompts. It’s all about laying out the supports and then explaining how the supports tie back to the point you’re trying to make.

 

——-

If possible, have them write lots of little one-paragraph RACES essays all year long. Get them used to citing and explaining in just one paragraph—a few times a week for 20 weeks in a row—before writing an entire 1, 2, or 3-page paper.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Garga

[easypeasy]

Is outsourcing an option? I struggled with this as well when mine were in school and, once the first hit college and we realized just how much of college was WRITING (she was a STEM major), I started to outsource her siblings' writing classes. We did classes here through the WTM Academy, Blue Tent, and PAHomeschoolers. Our favorites were WTM Academy and Blue Tent. Am relieved to report that the next two (one of whom wound up at a liberal arts college) had much less stress with the amount of writing involved due to their preparation.

I struggled to grade writing assignments because, when I read, I infer what the writer is trying to say. And, since I knew those writers (my own kids) so well, I would interpret their words and had trouble grading/critiquing what they actually wrote down! But once I outsourced, we discussed their assignments at length and would talk about the teacher's feedback - was incredibly helpful.

hugs and best wishes! In the long run, know they'll be fine. My oldest did just fine - it was just a crash course in the very beginning and she realized she needed to up her game - and she did!

[Lori D.]

Just to encourage you -- I teach Lit. & Writing at my homeschool co-op class, and I see high schoolers with a WIDE range of ability in writing, because they each develop the abstract thinking and analysis parts of the brain needed for essay-writing at different times.

I'd second the idea of outsourcing. Many people on these boards recommend Lantern English's series of classes in the Essay Basic series. Each course in the series is 8 weeks long/$65.

I find that MANY parents tell me "she/he will write for you (as the co-op teacher), but not for me." Some students take it too personally when mom critiques/comments on their writing, but are okay with an outside person's feedback. And others just work harder for outside accountability. And outsourcing would relieve you of the burden of trying to figure out how to score or provide feedback.

If outsourcing is not an option,  Sharon Watson's Power in Your Hands (gr. 9-12), or, Jump In (gr. 6-9) (from a Christian perspective) teaches in very incremental, concrete steps. Her programs are gentle, informal tone, written to the student. Jump In guides a student in what to say and how to organize their thoughts, and goes from a single solid paragraph into multi-paragraph (3-5 paragraph) essays in Descriptive, Narrative, Expository, and Persuasive writing. Power in Your Hands covers a number of types of high school writing assignments, such as process ("how to") paper, news article, essays (persuasive, narrative, descriptive), comparison essay, literary analysis essay, and the research paper.

For understanding how to write a literary analysis essay, the chapter on that concept in Leisha Myers' Windows to the World is the clearest, most concrete steps explanation I've seen.

I've developed my own material for my classes; it is sort of along the lines of @Garga's post, just using different terminology. Also similarly, I found that what worked with my own DSs was to nail the structure of a single solid paragraph, by practicing it a lot, and doing both expository (factual) and persuasive (opinion/argumentative/analysis) essays that are short (i.e., 1 paragraph), but have ALL the parts. So it is not intimidating, and they learned what they need for having both a complete thesis...

A complete thesis statement has 3 parts:
1. thesis topic = the overall subject area of the piece of writing
2. thesis claim = your opinion, contention, "big idea" ABOUT that topic
3. thesis direction = broad overview of the points of the argument of support for the thesis claim that you will flesh out in the body of the piece of writing

...and what the body of an essay needs to flesh out that argument of support:

- points (to develop the argument of support for the thesis claim)
- examples to show/flesh out/support each point
- commentary sentence for each example, explaining how/why the example shows/proves/supports that point
- concluding commentary at end of each body paragraph for the point covered in that paragraph, that explains how/why the point shows/proves/supports the thesis claim

If it is of help, for more ideas about teaching writing, and what I found helpful with my own DSs (and in teaching writing to other students at my homeschool co-op), check out my post in this past thread: "Can we discuss apathetic writers and college prep?"

Edited May 6, 2023 by Lori D.

[ByGrace3]

IEW may be helpful. It is super formulaic which makes struggling writers able to simply copy the process. Natural writers would balk but struggling writers would find it  helpful. I held off on trying it for years and now my dyslexic middle schooler is definitely finding her groove using it. I am going to try it with my ds next year to give some structure to his essays.  

[freesia]

9 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

IEW may be helpful. It is super formulaic which makes struggling writers able to simply copy the process. Natural writers would balk but struggling writers would find it  helpful. I held off on trying it for years and now my dyslexic middle schooler is definitely finding her groove using it. I am going to try it with my ds next year to give some structure to his essays.  

I agree. IEW bridged the gap for my first child who struggled to write. It was the scaffolding he needed. He actually came to enjoy writing and eventually was a philosophy major and editor of the school newspaper at his university.

Also, both my boys upped their writing game when I had them write for other people. At one point my friend graded oldest’s papers and I graded her son’s. For my other dc I’ve used Lantern English writing classes at around 8th/9th grade for the same reason. 

[mlktwins]

Writing was the bane of our existence with my twins (now heading off to college). I waited a year later than you, but I started mine in Lantern English in spring of 10th grade and went through 7 or 8 courses (including 1 quarter of British Lit) through 11th. Are they AP level writing courses? No. Mine were never, ever going to be interested in taking an AP Comp exam. But...it got the job done and they started doing really well with another teacher to be held accountable to for writing.

They teach various writing classes by quarter (or for an entire year). We took quarter classes. They have a summer session, which we did, that starts June 11th. Maybe give that one a try.

 

[BusyMom5]

Thank you all so much for your suggestions!  This was supposed to be the last essay of the year, and we really need to wrap up by the end of next week.  After reading all your suggestions,  I think I'm going to sign them up for the Lantern English 8 week courses either in June or just wait until August.  They aren't happy with the idea of an online class, but I am so tired of teaching them writing- they never listen to me.

For the current assignment, the bad one I just told him it was trashed.   Not acceptable and I can't even edit it- he has to write a different paper.  I gave him a topic he's familiar with (invasive plant species in farming).  He wrote out the full outline with my help this morning.  His final draft is due next Friday, and I will be checking each days progress before any technology can be used.  For the other twin, I gave him a good critique and he's fixing mistakes and building stronger arguments.  I gave him ideas to build support.  I think that one will end up an A or B paper.  Both are due next Friday.  I'm hoping knowing this is the last one, they will just get it done.  

Both of them will never want to do writing, I just need them to get capable of passing a few college classes with writing.  

[Lori D.]

39 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

...Both of them will never want to do writing, I just need them to get capable of passing a few college classes with writing.  

Just a last thought here, which I'm sure you already know, so sorry if this is a repeat... Writing is not just about writing essays or research papers with citations -- it is about clear communication in many arenas of life, and also about thinking and logic and reasoned argument. 😉 I know it's hard to be patient, but because writing comes out of thinking, it takes time for student brains to develop the logic, analytical thinking, and abstract thinking portions of the brain in order to be successful with writing.

What about getting involved with a Speech & Debate club, or YMCA's Youth & Government program? That would help them develop those thinking skills that also are applied to writing. I know several moms who have had struggling writers who went this route, and not only did their students have fun doing the arguing that goes into debate, it really helped them hone their thinking skills to make writing easier.
 

39 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

...This was supposed to be the last essay of the year, and we really need to wrap up by the end of next week...
...Not acceptable and I can't even edit it- he has to write a different paper....  I'm hoping knowing this is the last one, they will just get it done...

... I think I'm going to sign them up for the Lantern English 8 week courses either in June or just wait until August.  They aren't happy with the idea of an online class, but I am so tired of teaching them writing- they never listen to me...

Ug. So sorry it's been so rough. Hopefully outsourcing will provide a positive break for all of you.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Lori D.

[royspeed]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

I know it's hard to be patient, but because writing comes out of thinking, it takes time for student brains to develop the logic, analytical thinking, and abstract thinking portions of the brain in order to be successful with writing.

What Lori's articulating here is the part that I suspect we parents often underestimate. There is a kind of developmental readiness in play, a ripeness that must be achieved in the student's brain. There's a lot of mental wiring that needs to come together, so that the student can do, as Lori describes, the analytical thinking, the abstract thinking, the intellectual parts of the task.

And let's not underestimate the wiring involved in expression of thoughts & ideas: writing is not like science or math or history or even literature, because it's an output. For writing to take place, thoughts and ideas and observations and facts and explanations and examples must all flow out of our student — which means that they must all in some sense already be present inside the student. What's more, all those things must be produced in the form of nicely arranged sentences and paragraphs. — It's a minor miracle that it ever works at all.

In my own experience, when the writing doesn't work — i.e., it simply won't flow out of the student — there are a range of possible causes or missing ingredients. We parents must perform miracles of diagnosis, figuring out which of the possible causes afflict our student, or which of the necessary ingredients might be missing. What's more, in any particular student, the problem may be traced to not one but several different factors, each requiring a different approach or remedy. 

I don't know whether this will be helpful to you, @BusyMom5 , but in my experience, one of the tools that has often proven the right remedy is mindmapping. I've seen students who had already been through Michael Clay Thompson and EIW and IEW, you name it, and yet the kid was stuck; there was something about the demand that he or she produce sentences and paragraphs on a given topic that created in the student's mind a kind of mental logjam. And what I'm saying is that I've seen many such kids (not all, mind you, just many) come unstuck the instant they really got mindmapping — what it is, how it works, how to do it. So that may be something you want to try. 

Just one other thing I'll mention: My first aim is always that the student become a fan of the essay form — that he or she falls in love with great nonfiction prose, with essays & writers & writing. I believe that it's our duty as parents to nurture that love, to cultivate it through reading & discussing great writers, so that the virtues of great writing form a kind of knowledge in the student, a solid foundation beneath the student's feet. I know that there will be moments where the student hates writing, hates his or her own voice in writing, thinks she'll never be able to do this; and in such moments, teacher & student alike are going to need to draw on that love of great prose, on the certainty of its virtues & worth. At times those virtues may seem like a distant, faded memory, but if the student has never experienced the pleasure of an apt simile the joy of a great thought well expressed, there may be little to fall back on.

[Garga]

5 hours ago, royspeed said:

What Lori's articulating here is the part that I suspect we parents often underestimate. There is a kind of developmental readiness in play, a ripeness that must be achieved in the student's brain. There's a lot of mental wiring that needs to come together, so that the student can do, as Lori describes, the analytical thinking, the abstract thinking, the intellectual parts of the task.

And let's not underestimate the wiring involved in expression of thoughts & ideas: writing is not like science or math or history or even literature, because it's an output. For writing to take place, thoughts and ideas and observations and facts and explanations and examples must all flow out of our student — which means that they must all in some sense already be present inside the student. What's more, all those things must be produced in the form of nicely arranged sentences and paragraphs. — It's a minor miracle that it ever works at all.

In my own experience, when the writing doesn't work — i.e., it simply won't flow out of the student — there are a range of possible causes or missing ingredients. We parents must perform miracles of diagnosis, figuring out which of the possible causes afflict our student, or which of the necessary ingredients might be missing. What's more, in any particular student, the problem may be traced to not one but several different factors, each requiring a different approach or remedy. 

I don't know whether this will be helpful to you, @BusyMom5 , but in my experience, one of the tools that has often proven the right remedy is mindmapping. I've seen students who had already been through Michael Clay Thompson and EIW and IEW, you name it, and yet the kid was stuck; there was something about the demand that he or she produce sentences and paragraphs on a given topic that created in the student's mind a kind of mental logjam. And what I'm saying is that I've seen many such kids (not all, mind you, just many) come unstuck the instant they really got mindmapping — what it is, how it works, how to do it. So that may be something you want to try. 

Just one other thing I'll mention: My first aim is always that the student become a fan of the essay form — that he or she falls in love with great nonfiction prose, with essays & writers & writing. I believe that it's our duty as parents to nurture that love, to cultivate it through reading & discussing great writers, so that the virtues of great writing form a kind of knowledge in the student, a solid foundation beneath the student's feet. I know that there will be moments where the student hates writing, hates his or her own voice in writing, thinks she'll never be able to do this; and in such moments, teacher & student alike are going to need to draw on that love of great prose, on the certainty of its virtues & worth. At times those virtues may seem like a distant, faded memory, but if the student has never experienced the pleasure of an apt simile the joy of a great thought well expressed, there may be little to fall back on.

Hmmm. This resonates with me. My oldest is 20 and has struggled mightily with writing. So many times, he would sit there and nothing would come to mind. Nothing. I mean…NoThing. I would try brainstorming with him and he just couldn’t come up with any ideas on his own. Any. At all.

Sometimes, thinking that having me there with him was too much pressure, I would brainstorm with him, then leave him alone to jot down a few things and I’d come back 20 minutes later to see if he had anything and his paper would still be blank.

Sometimes, I would flat out tell him (orally) exactly what to write as an outline and say, “Now, just write down what I said. I’ll be right back,” and he would nod and say ok, but when I came back he would have written down 1 idea out of the 10 I gave him. It was like the rest didn’t compute. (And he’s normally a person who learns best by hearing and not seeing.)

It was like nothing was there. Simply nothing. When he was in high school and being homeschooled, I could be more involved in helping him eke out papers, but once he hit college, I couldn’t get as involved. I could only give him the sort of feedback that someone at the writing center would give. I could help him brainstorm in a general way and I could say, “This part is skimpy and needs to be beefed up,” and try to draw it out of him how to beef it up. But I had to step back and let him stand more on his own. The first few papers were so brutal for him. 

But he’s 20.5 now and in his last semester of being a sophomore and even though writing is still the bane of his college existence, he’s starting to come up with some ideas on his own without needing me there to brainstorm with. The last paper he wrote (and he doesn’t write many as a math major, but there are a few required gen ed classes that require writing), he barely needed my feedback at all. It was beautifully written except for 2 or 3 minor wobbles.

He has ADHD and the ADHD brain can take years longer to mature. For my guy, the part that has seemed to take the longest to mature is being able to put thoughts into words, or as you said—even having the thoughts in the first place to put into words. (Well, that and executive functioning. He’s still grappling with EF.)

My guy is smart, getting all As in all his advanced math classes, but there’s always been this odd block when it came to writing and expressing things verbally. He also gets frustrated with himself because it’s hard for him to verbally get things across. He’ll just sort of drop statements out there without context and then struggles to explain exactly what he’s talking about. It feels a lot like when he would cite something in a paper and not link it to his thesis.

But I have seen quite a jump (quite a jump) in his verbal and written abilities in the past year which makes me wonder if it’s developmental and this was a part of his brain that took the longest to develop. 

So, this post resonates with me! I read him all sorts of good, solid stuff until I was hoarse all through homeschooling, so I know I was filling his head with lots of ideas, but it can just take time and development for some people to be able to pull it out of the storage lockers in their brains and put it all together. 

And I am pleased to say that when he finally gets the ideas written out, his grammar and vocabulary are superb. Thank you CLE grammar! 

So, OP, no one wants to hear that it’ll take their 9th grader another 5 years to be able to write well, but….it might. Meanwhile, I’m glad you have a plan in place! Fingers crossed that it’s the ticket for your twins.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Garga

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

My oldest DD absolutely HATES to write and always has. We were still working on the concept of a proper sentence in 9th grade. For her senior year I gave in and had her do a year of IEW. It’s so formulaic that I never thought I’d use it. My mom used it for us when I was in high school and I absolutely hated it. I swore I’d never use it with my own kids. But then I had this 17 year old with one more year to get her to be to put some coherent thoughts on paper and I was desperate. We used IEW and it was the best thing I’d ever tried with her. Her writing is still nothing spectacular but it’s MUCH better than it was. I had my second DD do it too and it wasn’t particularly helpful for her. Third DD is doing it this year but we won’t continue next year. It’s not a good fit. We’ll be switching to WWS which I think will suite her much better. Youngest DS is doing level B of IEW this year and will absolutely be going on to year 2 next year. We’re calling next year 8th/9th for him (November birthday). Last year I’d get a “paragraph” of three sentences and a total of 15-20 words. This year he’s able to write five paragraph papers with much more complex sentences. Still nothing great but a significant improvement.
 

DD2 joined a speech and debate club this year and the outsourced instruction in speech writing has been wonderful for her. Next year DH and I have decided that all three kids will be doing speech. I think the instruction from someone besides me, in combination with what we’re doing at home, will be extremely helpful for all of them. I’ll just have to brace myself for the inevitable complaining. 

[Arcadia]

22 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

  Both of them will never want to do writing, I just need them to get capable of passing a few college classes with writing.  

If they are going to engineering school, a typical writing class required is technical writing. For lower classman humanities, my kids did theirs at community college because class sizes are small.

 

22 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Just a last thought here, which I'm sure you already know, so sorry if this is a repeat... Writing is not just about writing essays or research papers with citations -- it is about clear communication in many arenas of life, and also about thinking and logic and reasoned argument. 😉 I know it's hard to be patient, but because writing comes out of thinking, it takes time for student brains to develop the logic, analytical thinking, and abstract thinking portions of the brain in order to be successful with writing.
 

For DS18, it was confidence. He didn’t had confidence his writing was good enough until he got his first A in community college English. He assumed his writing was bad and so he could not put pen to paper thinking that what he write (type) would be substandard work.  DS17 don’t care as much and could write “garbage” on demand. 
 

As for the mental portion of writing, I gave DS18 reams of printing paper for mind maps and drawing his ideas into comic strips. He also has notebooks to write whatever he wants in. 

[serendipitous journey]

Over the summer, one thing that might help is stepping each child through WTM writing a la SWB's A Plan For Teaching Writing K-12.  That links the audio lecture.  When we've been struggling with writing, it has been helpful to me to back up to wherever the child is along this path and teach the next step. 

Just an idea!

ETA: doing this, and doing the outlining/summaries across the curriculum, has been so helpful.  That, and teaching the child to outline an essay before writing it.  Sort of like Arcadia's bullet points, I imagine. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by serendipitous journey

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, serendipitous journey said:

and doing the outlining/summaries across the curriculum, has been so helpful.  That, and teaching the child to outline an essay before writing it.  Sort of like Arcadia's bullet points, I imagine. 

I also use that strategy for making exam cram sheets/cheat sheets in college.

[Shoeless]

Have you looked at the Killgallon books, @BusyMom5? My DS14's writing has really improved since we started the middle school series. They are thin books, so not very intimidating looking for reluctant writers 😉

My almost 9th grader isn't a strong academic writer yet. His writing style is very jokey, which is fine if you are writing another volume of Horrible Histories, but isn't appropriate for other contexts. I will probably outsource writing at some point because I think he'll appreciate feedback from someone other than me.