Another uncomfortable with men post

[JennifersLost]

I was going to put this under the other post, but it felt like I was hijacking the thread, so here goes:

 

My question is how do you balance the desire to look well, or be attractive, with the knowledge that might bring unwanted attention?

 

I haven't worried about this for awhile because for the last three years or so I've been overweight and haven't felt particularly attractive. I've been so isolated I'm not around any men to worry about. Now, as the weight slips off, I'm more active and "feel good" about myself, I'm finding those worries returning.

 

Because the last time I felt pretty I made a new friend (a woman) who I really clicked with. She was the "best friend" I hadn't had in a long time and it felt great to meet someone with kids the same age who had similar interests.

 

Unfortunately this woman came with a husband with serious boundary issues. I'm a complete dork about this stuff - totally clueless as to how to handle flirting. I immediately pointed out to both my friend and my dh that he was being inappropriate. Neither one believed me. The man took total advantage of this, doing everything in broad daylight - in PUBLIC - with this woman and my husband around so that I felt trapped. I could make a fuss and look like a total nut-case who didn't understand "social flirting" or I could go along with it and look like...well, like I welcomed it.

 

It sucked. I have never been in such an uncomfortable situation.

 

One day I attempted to tell my friend exactly what her dh was doing and how it was making me feel. She stopped me and told me straight to my face that she would never be able to stay friends with a woman who told her her dh was cheating on her. What could I say? He hadn't "cheated", but he'd certainly made his interest clear enough.

 

My dh finally got savvy to what was happening, and though I'd never say so to his face I think that's a tiny part of the reason why I live in Canada now, LOL. I do know it's a huge part of the reason I put on 15 pounds.

 

So that's reason number 1 for this question. Here's the rest of it. This is probably way to much info, but I'd love some advice. I've been in several bad, abusive situations in my life, and in each case the man involved basically told me before, during and after how "beautiful" I was. The inference being, that was why they were behaving so unspeakably. I know it's not true. A., I'm not beautiful and never have been. B., that's not a good enough excuse for what they did. But am I a bit messed up over it? Yep!

 

I'd like to move on from this experience. I'm tired of punishing myself for what other people do. I've packed on weight several times as an adult and I'd like the change to feel healthy, strong and (dare I say it?) pretty again. But every time I have been "pretty-ish" in my life, the weirdos come out of the woodwork and something crazy happens.

 

So how do you reconcile the desire to be attractive with the possibility of all the bad things being attractive can bring?

 

I'm pretty sure I'm such a target because I'm short and I'm a good listener. So what do I do? Stay fat? Never talk with men? Develop an acid tongue and a wicked temper? I'm only half joking here. I miss the variety of being able to talk to both men and women. Heck, I don't even frequent chat boards where there are men online (sorry Plaid Dad and Volty; I'm not demeaning your masculinity).

 

I have no idea how beautiful women behave. They must run into this kind of thing all the time.

[Laura K (NC)]

(I've heard... I've never worn one)

 

That it gives you a sense of power and makes you feel kind of sexy to hide your femininity to the world, but to reveal it to your husband. It's like having a very powerful secret.

 

Modesty, to the extent practiced by average women in the U.S., also involves something of that kind of power. If someone lets it all hang out there's really nothing left to show. The extreme is the Britney Spears fiasco, and surely part of her breakdown was her overexposure... there was nothing hidden or secret or private about her.

 

This topic is somewhat related to the recent conversations about SAHM's and fashion, too. Women desire attention naturally and will seek it with cosmetics, clothing, jewelry, hairstyles, and so on. But married women are in a bind; they still feel like they must compete with other women for the attention of their husband (if they're insecure like me), and still feel like they have to be attractive, but just because they (we) dress nicely doesn't mean that we're advertising our services to anyone who looks at us.

 

I'm more modest now than I used to be. I'm not beautiful, I'm sure, to anyone but my husband, but I am still very careful not to show cleavage or wear tight clothing that will cause any "stumbling" (as Christians are sometimes wont to say) in other men. Unfortunately, this means that my husband doesn't see as much cleavage as he'd like either!

 

If guys hit on me, I'm oblivious to it. I guess that's my advice... if you dress conservatively, play dumb if you think someone is flirting with you, or tell yourself that they really aren't flirting with you... not because you're "not pretty" or because of any old baggage that you are carrying around from your past trauma, but because it just couldn't be that a married man would flirt with a woman who isn't his wife.

 

And don't gain or lose weight for anyone but yourself!

[OnTheBrink]

I was going to put this under the other post, but it felt like I was hijacking the thread, so here goes:

 

My question is how do you balance the desire to look well, or be attractive, with the knowledge that might bring unwanted attention?

 

I haven't worried about this for awhile because for the last three years or so I've been overweight and haven't felt particularly attractive. I've been so isolated I'm not around any men to worry about. Now, as the weight slips off, I'm more active and "feel good" about myself, I'm finding those worries returning.

 

Because the last time I felt pretty I made a new friend (a woman) who I really clicked with. She was the "best friend" I hadn't had in a long time and it felt great to meet someone with kids the same age who had similar interests.

 

Unfortunately this woman came with a husband with serious boundary issues. I'm a complete dork about this stuff - totally clueless as to how to handle flirting. I immediately pointed out to both my friend and my dh that he was being inappropriate. Neither one believed me. The man took total advantage of this, doing everything in broad daylight - in PUBLIC - with this woman and my husband around so that I felt trapped. I could make a fuss and look like a total nut-case who didn't understand "social flirting" or I could go along with it and look like...well, like I welcomed it.

 

It sucked. And it especially sucked because dh and I were having our own issues, so that sometimes this man was the only man who I was getting any attention from. I have never been in such an uncomfortable situation.

 

One day I attempted to tell my friend exactly what her dh was doing and how it was making me feel. She stopped me and told me straight to my face that she would never be able to stay friends with a woman who told her her dh was cheating on her. What could I say? He hadn't "cheated", but he'd certainly made his interest clear enough.

 

My dh finally got savvy to what was happening, and though I'd never say so to his face I think that's a tiny part of the reason why I live in Canada now, LOL. I do know it's a huge part of the reason I put on 15 pounds.

 

So that's reason number 1 for this question. Here's the rest of it. This is probably way to much info, but I'd love some advice. I've been in several bad, abusive situations in my life, including being r*ped at 17, and in each case the man involved basically told me before, during and after how "beautiful" I was. The inference being, that was why they were behaving so unspeakably. I know it's not true. A., I'm not beautiful and never have been. B., that's not a good enough excuse for what they did. But am I a bit messed up over it? Yep!

 

I'd like to move on from this experience. I'm tired of punishing myself for what other people do. I've packed on weight several times as an adult and I'd like the change to feel healthy, strong and (dare I say it?) pretty again. But every time I have been "pretty-ish" in my life, the weirdos come out of the woodwork and something crazy happens.

 

So how do you reconcile the desire to be attractive with the possibility of all the bad things being attractive can bring?

 

I'm pretty sure I'm such a target because I'm short and I'm a good listener. So what do I do? Stay fat? Never talk with men? Develop an acid tongue and a wicked temper? I'm only half joking here. I miss the variety of being able to talk to both men and women. Heck, I don't even frequent chat boards where there are men online (sorry Plaid Dad and Volty; I'm not demeaning your masculinity).

 

I have no idea how beautiful women behave. They must run into this kind of thing all the time.

 

 

You were not raped because of your looks. Those men abused you because they're sick, evil *insert 8-letter word here*. And, they abused you because, for whatever reason, you let them. (I DO NOT SAY THIS AS AN ACCUSATION!!!) I was in a horribly abusive marriage and I was abused because I let him abuse me. Why did I let him? Because I felt like *4-letter word* about myself and figured that he was the best I'd ever get. I didn't set boundaries and as Dr. Phil says, I taught him how to treat me by allowing him to abuse me for so long. I never demanded to be respected. I demand it now. I demand it by setting firm limits with people and I've given up being worried of offending someone because I refuse to allow them to get closer to me than what I'm comfortable with. I don't do this cruelly or without compassion for the other person's feelings, but I will not allow anyone to be abusive to me and remain in a relationship with me, be it a friendship or romantic relationship.

 

I think if you can disconnect the belief that your appearance leads to you being mistreated (you may have head knowledge of that fact, but in your heart, you may very well believe it on some level), and grab some power for yourself, you'll find that YOU get to choose who to allow into your life and how far they're let in. It's scary at first, but boy, you'll feel wonderful knowing that you have some control over your life.

 

I think the real issue is boundary setting and self-respect and demanding respect from others. I don't think it matters if you're Grace Kelly or an Oompa Loompa, if a woman conducts herself with grace, confidence and firmly-set limits, the weirdos will stay in the woodwork, or they'll go back to it pretty fast.

 

Congrats on the weight loss! :)

 

I wanted to clarify: I wasn't implying the rape was because of any fault of your own or that you were in any way responsible for that. My empowerment speech was in regard to your past abusive relationships. I wasn't sure that came out clearly. :)

[Karen sn]

Well, as an absolutely gorgeous woman with jewels dripping from my fingers, I can tell you this: I actually got hit on more when I shaved my head.

(Obviously the first half is not true - but the latter is completely TRUE!)

 

I am getting stronger and more sassy - when a man flirts with me I say, "What do you think your wife would say?"

You be who you are - and if a man want to be an idiot, set him straight.

 

And by the way - I have always thought you were beautiful.

 

Would write more profound stuff - but I am done with work, my ride is here, and so I am off.

[chickenpatty]

I think you can focus on getting your body fit for the sake of being fit, not for showing to the world. Being a healthy size is a very good thing! You can aim to make your body sexy for your husband (by being fit and letting him see it). Focus on making your face attractive to the rest of the world. You want people to be attracted to *you*, not your body. Does that make sense? Sorry, I'm not the most articulate around here.

[Deece in MN]

I don't really worry about it because I pretty much always look like I just rolled out of bed. :)

Even when I try to look nice, I still have a bit of a "flew in on a whirlwind" type of look to me.

 

Anyway, I am sorry for your experiences. I agree that you should just be who you are and find strength in that. Yes, it is easier said than done, but you are a strong, beautiful woman; find peace in that knowledge.

 

I guess I can't give any better advice. I am not a beautiful woman on the outside, but I walk through the world with the confidence of knowing I am beautiful on the inside. I think this attitude gives people a pause to think before messing with me. :)

[Amy in TX]

Since it's been brought up. I wear it, and have since I was around 32. It's absolutely true to say that the great thing about it is that you are keeping a lot of yourself private--not for the general public. It can be a very empowering feeling. *I* am declining to display, as it were.

 

It also, in some circumstances, can send the message that I would not welcome any flirtation. When I started wearing it, men became generally very circumspect with me.

 

In addition, it can be looked on in the sense of "helping your brothers in faith not to stumble," to use the excellent Christian phrase. Meaning not making it harder for them to avoid extramarital sex. But we must not let this idea morph into the idea that men are not responsible for themselves and that we must keep them in check.

 

What I want to make absolutely clear is that the hijab is *not* a "protection from rape" and those who don't wear it, or who dress more revealingly, are *not* understood to be "inviting rape" or anything else. The bottom line is men are responsible for their own behavior and there is *never* any justification for sexual assault. As others have said, it's not even *about* sex; it's about a particular man's need to feel powerful or to cause pain.

 

Jennifer, my heart really goes out to you. The idea that anytime you feel pretty something bad happens is just so... so very sad. So not how it should be! I wish I could offer more than virtual hugs.

 

I hope and pray that you can find a way to be free of what that man did to you.

 

Amy

[OceanBreeze]

It's not you, it's him. Continue looking good!:)

 

You could give "the look" and walk away.

 

You could give an excuse and walk away.

 

You could say "Come on, cut it out." And if he persists, "I'm serious. Cut it out."

 

Don't make an issue of it. He's the one who should be uncomfortable, not you.

 

Jenelle

(who struggles with her own friend's husband's inappropriate comments)

[PinkInTheBlue]

After stumbling over a couple of uncomfortable situations in the past and not knowing how to handle them, I made a decision to address it directing and immediately. If I feel something was inappropriate or uncomfortable I immediately just say "Hmm...I'm not really comfortable here. Talk to you later".

 

However, I'm like others said in the other post, I get along better with men than women in general so that's a bit annoying sometimes. That whole theory of "men can't be just friends" is often more true than I'd rather. And I know I'm not all that great! It's just some stupid wiring in them, it seems sometimes.

[JennifersLost]

I just realized I have to edit my original post. In the middle of dinner the thought occurred to me that my kids - esp. oldest ds - pop in here once in awhile to see what I'm doing. Even with my name change they might put two and two together. I'm going to see if I can leave the general gist while taking out the worst of the stuff they don't know happened.

 

Thanks for your good thoughts. That's really what I'm after - the "Practical" ways to discourage "misunderstandings" plus the courage to let it roll off my back when men do cross the line. Remember how I was posting before about maybe being a bit Aspergerish? I think this is part of it. Any time I have to deal with "gray" issues in a conversation I'm at a loss. I'm horrible at office politics, group dynamics, etc. And social flirting is beyond my capabilities. I either freeze or overdo it in an attempt to fit in. Part of what makes me vulnerable is that because I don't always "get" a situation or I see it so differently I'm used to being told that how I perceive things is wrong. In the case of my friend's dh, the fact that both my dh and my friend were telling me I was "seeing" it wrong meant that the whole thing dragged on way longer than it otherwise would have.

 

(BTW, soon after we left California, my friend and her dh split up. I was NOT wrong).

 

I tend to hear everything people say to me as "truth", so yes, those men's voices essentially telling me it's my fault they were doing what they did are very hard to dismiss. I spent a lot of time as a young woman staring at myself in the mirror and wondering what the heck they saw in my face that would make them want to hurt me.

 

I probably need to do with this what I've done with everything I've learned about social situations - study what other women are doing and how they handle it. I need to be better at identifying the situations (and believing my own radar even if it makes me over-sensitive sometimes), and more smooth at how I handle them.

[JennifersLost]

responses.

 

Karen sn - I know exactly what you mean. Soon after the "unfortunate" incident I shaved most of my head, too. I was into punk rock and thought most men would leave me alone. I figured only guys interested in "my" type of music would like the look.

 

WRONG!!! That was an eye-opener. But what I've heard and figured out since is that many, many women cut their hair drastically after an attack and it is almost a signal to men that you are more vulnerable than other women.

 

Amy in TX - what an interesting perspective. I've always wondered if wearing a hijab led men to be more respectful or if in a western society it would almost be "a dare" to men.

 

I'm almost 40 and well aware of it. I don't show cleavage, don't wear short shorts, etc. Mostly I'm in jeans and t's. My skirts all hit my ankles. I'm not sure that anything other than icky sack dresses really hides what's underneath if a man is looking. We once had guests over to a picnic dinner in our backyard. I was wearing a floor length jean skirt (about as close to a sack as one can get!) and a t-shirt, at my heaviest weight. All I did was offer to get the man a beer, rather than sending him into the kitchen to get it himself. I would have done that for any guest, male or female, young, old, whatever. There is nothing "misleading" about that! LOL!

 

But the rest of the night his entire conversation was about well-trained women, how he could get used to that, blah, blah, blah. Typical flirty, silly adult conversation, but just about over my comfort zone. Since then this man has felt free to tell me really REALLY raunchy jokes (in front of dh) - this time well past my comfort zone. Dh's take? I should be flattered he's so comfortable with me. AAAAAgh! I'm not saying this crosses a line in the same way as other things have. I'm just giving an example of how it doesn't seem to matter what I wear.

 

But - yes, point taken. As I go forward and lose weight I should keep my eye toward a classic wardrobe rather than a hip, flirty one. It can only help.

[Laura K (NC)]

I should have made myself more clear that I believe the same... that women even completely covered up can still be a victim of rape. I hope my post was not too insensitive. I didn't consider thorougly enough how that could be taken. :(

[Amy in TX]

Laura, I wasn't taking your post as insensitive at all! Actually, I was wanting to clarify that b/c it's something I hear occasionally--that hijab reduces rape, etc. I didn't want anyone thinking that that is the Islamic teaching. I really liked your understanding of the "empowering" feeling.

 

:o)

[Amy in Orlando]

(((Jennifer))) - I totally get what you're saying. I've never really struggled with weight, but more with image. I look (or I did look) younger than I am and when the boys were little I went to great lenghts to hide myself in the hope that people would see me as a grown up. Sometime after Andy (now 8) was born, it occurred to me that if I acted the role, other people would respond accordingly. It took a lot of effort, but it worked! I still struggle with it a bit, but I find if I play the role of a surprised grown-up, people back off immediately. Kind of "I can't believe you just said/or suggested such a thing!" It' weird. But it works.

 

Now that the boys are older and I have more time when I'm off alone running errands are hitting the bookstore, I have to remind myself that I'm not the wimpy kid I use as my fall-back identity. It's a great deterrent and also a great way to meet people you REALLY want to get to know.

 

What does this mean in reality? I started getting decent haircuts and paying someone to color my hair. In our short winters, I wear jeans with short heels and classic sweater or jackets and one or two pieces of good jewelry AND A great purse. In the summer, I stopped wearing short-shorts, except if I'm home doing laundry, in favor of nice Bermudas and a couple of flattering t-shirts or short/sleeveless blouses, combined with very funny, but low-heeled shoes. At the beach, I caved. I need a suit with some sort of bra built in. I want bottom coverage, but I don't have to look like my grandma. I found two at Land's End and with a good sunhat, I can face anyone and feel in control.

 

As for conversations, I try to steer things back to my family, even if I want to say more about how I think or what I feel. The exception being if I'm in a group of people talking about something. If it's one on one, I keep things easy and light. It's just easier.

 

Don't give up and honor your comfort zone.

[Volty]

Jennifer, maybe you're too nice and sweet. Don't change that about yourself by any means. But some men are idiots and you don't want to wimp out when confronted by them.

 

If you're confronted with an insensitive jerk, making some stupid remark, you need to toughen up quickly. Have a smartass comment prepared in advance and tap your inner b*tch to deliver it with force. Then either a glare or abrupt turn and walk away.

 

If needed the second comment is met with a hard slap across the face.

[LG Gone Wild]

I am referring to the attention of men, of course. Honestly, I can't imagine having a problem dealing with what sounds like s*x*al harrassment. My face is an open book so my displeasure right there for all to see. I don't need an acid tongue, my raised eyebrows and crinkled nose and frowning mouth communicate well enough for me.

 

Listen, I doubt you are as short or shorter then me, so it's not height. Maybe it has to do with countenance. Since I am constantly yelling at my kids, I am sure it makes mischief makers think twice before approaching me.

 

 

I have no idea how beautiful women behave. They must run into this kind of thing all the time.

 

 

Yeah, I wouldn't know either.:rolleyes: My guess is that if they are not shallow, they get rather fed up with all the buffoons.

[abbeyej]

I'm pretty sure I'm such a target because I'm short and I'm a good listener. So what do I do? Stay fat? Never talk with men? Develop an acid tongue and a wicked temper? I'm only half joking here.

...

I have no idea how beautiful women behave. They must run into this kind of thing all the time.

 

I wish I had wisdom or advice to offer in the thread as a whole, Jennifer, but I'm afraid I don't. I'm very sorry for the things you've been through...

 

I did find the comments above ... curious though. Because I *don't* think that being short, being a good listener, or being beautiful invites victimization. And I'm not sure exactly what it is that signals some creeps that this is a woman they can intimidate and mistreat, but I don't think it's anything so external...

 

I think there maybe *some* truth to the idea that an "acid tongue" is helpful. ;) Not in the sense of being bitter to all those you (general "you") meet, but at least in terms of having the *expectation* that others will treat you with respect and that it's appropriate to call them on any lack of respect and walk away when that doesn't work. And this doesn't have to mean rudeness beyond a raised eyebrow or AmyinOrlando's "you didn't just say that to me!"... ;) If there's a niggling doubt somewhere in your psyche that maybe they're somehow justified in treating you like dirt... I think some people have an extra sense for that sort of thing...

[JennifersLost]

I'm kind of on a mission this year - remember I just turned 39? - I am determined to meet head on and change every freakin' thing about my life that isn't up to snuff and this is one of those parts.

 

After your comments, especially, abbeyjay, I'm thinking about how a similar thing happens to me with other women. No, they don't hit on me - LOL, but where men will "take advantage" of me, women step in and "take over" for me. I'm not one to get picked for heading committees if you know what I mean.

 

The man who was cracking inappropriate jokes to me? His wife bullied me into painting my house a color I didn't like. I still don't like it.

 

I think I'm just too darn polite. No, actually as I read that last paragraph again, I'm realizing I'm more than polite - I'm a doormat! Can I use as an excuse the fact that I'm the youngest of four kids? I'm the peacemaker in my family. The one that could never catch up to all the older kids?

 

Cr*p. Off to buy pearls and a classy handbag.

 

And Volty, you're right. I need to practice my look of death and a vicious slap. No one seems put off by the Victorian "I'm going to pretend you didn't just say that because no gentleman would have said that to me" look.

[Tami]

are you saying that if one is not fat and frumpy then the men will not be able to control themselves since we are so gorgeous? It isn't necessary to be Frump of the Month or a Tantalizing Tart. There are other shades in between. :)

 

Some men prefer women who are overweight, so I guess that isn't always a safety net.

 

I think if you are uncomfortable with men, or from past situations you should seek counseling for that, rather than punishing yourself with added pounds.

[JennifersLost]

I would have been too polite to answer that post, Tami.

 

But here's the new, assertive me.

 

I didn't say that there were two choices, being fat or being a tantalizing tart. And reading that just made me feel awful. Pardon me if while I've been through therapy and processed a heck of a lot on my own I might find myself just a TAD wary when men are inappropriate.

 

I've spent a lot of time in this thread trying to say I'm not going around dressed like a tart. That when I say "pretty", I mean feminine - long skirts, pretty shirts, soft hairstyles, etc.

 

I'm trying to lose weight to be healthy. I was overweight and having enough digestive issues to have to forgo activity after activity with my family. And I've just been through 11 months of "womanly" issues that are finally resolving. When I'm losing weight, exercising and getting healthy I am making my entire family's life better.

 

Honestly, I am in tears. I hope you didn't mean it that way, but that felt like a slap in the face. You are a beautiful woman, Tami. You probably grew up with a self-confidence I never had. All I'd like is the chance to feel like an average, attractive woman who has the skills to deflect any unwanted attention that might bring.

[Tami]

I would have been too polite to answer that post, Tami.

 

But here's the new, assertive me.

 

 

Oh my -- please pardon the harsh tone of my post. I was in a hurry, and did not take time to explain what I was trying to say. I post as a former Frump of the Month, turned (at least) semi-stylish Mom. So, I have been there.

 

I was hearing that you are blaming yourself for the unwanted advances. It really hurts my heart to hear that. I think counseling for those issues would be really, really helpful to you! Will you at least think about that? And yes, we women blame and punish ourselves for the sins of others far too often, if we admit it.

 

I think that your new healthy lifestyle will make you feel more confident, and actually 'bully-proof' you. Unwanted advances from the opposite sex can be about power and control, and it is bullying in a way. I think a lack of confidence attracts bullies, not a certain weight or clothing style.

 

I just hate to hear that my post upset you -- but I'm glad you posted. Without seeing facial expressions and tone of voice, posts can come across as rather harsh! Please accept my apologies for that. It was not my intention.

[abbeyej]

Oh, Jennifer! You and I read Tami's post *totally* differently -- and I *really* don't think she intended it as you interpreted it...

 

I think she was trying to give you permission -- that it's totally okay to look pretty and slim and feminine -- and that that doesn't at all mean that you will be a "tantalizing tart". Even if you wore skirts above the knee, or had a super-hip haircut, that wouldn't give men the right to treat you like trash.

 

And it's *great* that you're taking charge of your health, and it's wonderful to look pretty and feminine.

 

I do understand that, based on your past experiences, hiding behind big clothes and an extra layer of fat can seem "safer". ... I'm so very sorry that you've had experiences that put you in that position.

 

But it's also possible to be pretty (whether in long, flowy skirts or short professional ones, or just really great jeans, whatever), and even short (haven't you seen tall-but-mousy women? petite-yet-intimidating women?), and even be a gentle, kind, listening, polite person... and not let people walk on you or mistreat you or be cruel to you...

 

What's past is /was *not* your fault. But I do think you can learn to protect yourself (body, mind, heart) from hurt no matter how you look. Sometimes it's telling someone flat out that they're being inappropriate. Sometimes it's laughing as if they've made a joke, "Oh, really? Well, I'd love to come over and see your house when you paint it that color, but I think I'm going to stick with this one!"... Sometimes it's just walking away with dignity (and *staying* the heck away)... It's *totally* appropriate to be "wary" when men are inappropriate. I find the vast majority of them aren't (inappropriate), but when they are, it's just 'cause they're jerks.

 

... Have you ever had the chance to talk to your husband really candidly about this? I wonder if knowing he was on board to be your protector might be helpful?

[Doran]

First of all, it's not fair that you've endured any abuse. No one should have to go through that, and I hope you really, deeply understand that you should not blame yourself. I think the biggest struggle for women who have lost their confidence, for whatever reason, and to whatever degree, is to believe again that we are worthy. Worthy of what? Of speaking up. Of appropriate attention. Of compliments. Of respect.

 

Of course Tami never meant to hurt you. It's just not always apparent, particularly in this format, how fragile someone is. I feel sure this thread has been hard for you. Even posting about this stuff dredges up terrible memories, opens old wounds and allows the negative thought processes to start sneering at you again. And, when we've got these skeletons in our closets, what we want more than anything is to one day open the door and find that they're GONE...that the housekeeper has tossed them out so we'll never have to see them again. Sadly, it seems that even when the pile of bones gets smaller, there are always still one or two laying around to remind us that we've got more work to do.

 

Here's what I know about you, Jennifer. You are good at figuring out what you need to do, and then actually doing it. You are more beautiful than you believe yourself to be. Your have an assertive side that has been inching its way out from deep inside you for as long as I've known you here, and that is the work you're doing now. The slimmer you. The you who holds her head high as she walks. The you who grabs hold of her femininity with both hands and says, "Well aren't you wonderful?!" The you who reacts with a cool head when some idiot guy steps out of bounds. The you who can readily tell the difference between someone stepping out of bounds, and someone just being crass. The you who is sure that all the faces of Jennifer are worthy.

 

You're getting there, my friend. You really are.

 

Doran

[JennifersLost]

a break, had lunch and came back.

 

Thanks, Tami, for clearing that up. I really read you as saying that if I'd gotten unwanted attention it was because I was dressing slutty and should know better.

 

I go for long periods these days without even thinking about the abuse and then once in awhile it comes up again and gives me a sucker-punch.

 

I'm not down to my perfect weight, but for the first time in four years when I look in the mirror I like what I see, body-wise. I got a haircut - lopped off about seven inches in an attempt to have a more thirty-something-appropriate style. It's curly and okay, but not quite what I'd hoped. I even picked up a little makeup the other day. Put in on, washed it off, LOL, and now it's sitting in my bathroom untouched. I'm going to keep trying until I figure that out.

 

Dh is completely appreciative of all I'm doing, is working on losing a little weight himself; he is my protector, but he gets a little impatient with how shy/over-sensitive I can be. I think he likes it when I look pretty and has spent the last four years begging me to go back to dressing like I used to dress (How one is to wear a sundress in a Canadian winter I have yet to figure out, though.) He's very slow to anger and slow to assume the worst of anyone. When he does get upset, though, he gets good and upset. He does feel like he needs to be my white knight in those situations. I hesitate to tell him about anyone's inappropriateness in case I'm reading the situation wrong, so I only talk about the things he witnesses or that I'm dead sure about. Even then he tries to find the logical explanation first before getting upset about it.

 

Anyway. There's been a lot of good stuff in this thread for me, mostly about not being afraid to call things like I see them and speak up for myself. Good things happen when I get the guts to do that; I just need more practice.

 

BTW, I use you guys as a sounding board for all the questions I'm way too afraid to ask my "real" friends. If I ever stumble over one of you people I'll be embarrassed as all get out about how much I've revealed. On the other hand, I just usually figure that if I'm struggling with something embarrassing maybe someone else is, too, and they can learn something without having to be embarrassed. Banking my karma, so to speak.

[Laura K (NC)]

This is usually what I think of to do a few hours after the situation. It's hard for most women to be ready with this kind of approach. I don't know if practicing in front of a mirror will help.

 

There's a self-defense class here for women that teaches how to fend off a physical attacker. I still don't know if that kind of practice would help. I think I would still be frozen with fear. Emotional/psychological attacks are different because you can't see them coming as easily. You can't change your response any easier than you can your whole personality. If she's a nice person, she can't automatically stop being nice... it would take undoing a lifetime of training.

[Doran]

There's a self-defense class here for women that teaches how to fend off a physical attacker. I still don't know if that kind of practice would help.

 

I'm really glad you brought up the idea of self defense classes. I had the same idea based on a class taught here by our karate sensei and other black belts...I just completely forgot to mention it. I think you might find it really empowering, Jennifer. See if there's anything like that nearby, would you? Ours is strictly a womens' class, which I think is the best way to go in this sort of thing.

 

Doran

[Amy in Orlando]

I'm really glad you brought up the idea of self defense classes. I had the same idea based on a class taught here by our karate sensei and other black belts...I just completely forgot to mention it. I think you might find it really empowering, Jennifer. See if there's anything like that nearby, would you? Ours is strictly a womens' class, which I think is the best way to go in this sort of thing.

 

Doran

 

This is actually a really good point. The boys have taken tkd forever. I love it for them, for me the constant shouting/yelling just turned me off. A couple of years ago, their instructor convinced me to take one of the self-defense classes. I was really uncomfortable with it but I did it. Very empowering and I have felt stronger and in more control than ever since I took the class. It was all women and once the class started it wasn't at all threatening, though I'd imagine someone watching the END of the class might have felt threatened.

[JennifersLost]

You know it just occurred to me why this may have "come up" again for me right now. I'm actually taking an exercise class twice a week called "Jabs and Abs" and the jab part is pseudo-boxing set to music holding small hand weights.

 

And it feels soooooo good to be striking out like that. Jabs, uppercuts, etc. I feel so strong and pumped during the class.

 

At the same time, I use that class as a daydreaming/brainstorming time for working on my book and it's sequel and both of them have quite a bit to do with women/girls facing off against men who have an unfair advantage.

 

Probably why old memories are surfacing. Thanks again to all for walking me through this.

[Volty]

I like the image of you striking during Jabs and Abs workout. Toughen up, not just your abs but your self worth and dignity Jennifer. Don't let yourself get taken advantage of because you're too timid to stand up for yourself.

 

Make it a goal, the next time you feel bullied to fight back.

[Kate CA]

I hesitate to tell him about anyone's inappropriateness in case I'm reading the situation wrong, so I only talk about the things he witnesses or that I'm dead sure about. Even then he tries to find the logical explanation first before getting upset about it.

 

 

In my early years of marriage I had issues like this with my dh where I felt that whatever I would say he would counter it or "go to bat" for the other person. It. Was. Maddening. I was finally able to convey to him what he was doing - undermining my confidence a) in him and b) in myself. I needed him to understand things from my perspective - even if he didn't always agree with me. I needed understanding. I think perhaps your dh may not really "get" that this is a super super super sensitive thing for you - that you feel bombarded by the ugly side of some men and that you need him to back you, period.

 

It took a long time for my dh to truly understand and I had to share it with him in multiple ways via word pictures that would affect him. Can you do this? This would be, to me anyway, the most important thing you can do. To have my dh backing me 100% - even when I might have been wrong sometimes - was very important to me. We even had signals that I would say. I would say, "OK, honey, what I am going to say is a "sensitive subject." This meant that HE needed to be extra sensitive and not brush it off or answer me with "logic." Sometimes I just needed him to listen.

 

We have been married for almost 16 years and we communicate in a really wonderful way now. It took a lot of work to get there though. :)

 

I hope that makes sense and is helpful in some way.

 

Hugs to you!

Warmly,

Kate

[JWSJ]

What I want to make absolutely clear is that the hijab is *not* a "protection from rape" and those who don't wear it, or who dress more revealingly, are *not* understood to be "inviting rape" or anything else.

 

I understand and agree with you about the hijab's function.

 

However, when I have spoken to Muslim men (in the US) about women that do not wear hijab (which is almost everyone) they call them very unpleasant sexually abusive names. Western women (in their minds) are asking for it.

 

The opinion seems widespread - as its has come up many times. But I'm sure there are more mature, liberal Muslim men that do not share this opinion.

[Carol in Cal.]

If I were you, I would roleplay with a female partner how to excuse yourself and leave. And then do it sometimes when you want to. If someone is talking inappropriately to you, you can say, "Excuse me" and go somewhere else in the room. There is no shame in that. (Or in staying, for that matter. But that isn't the question.)

 

The main thing is that you need to hear over and over your own voice telling yourself in the same way that you would tell your daughter, "This is not your fault. He is the one the issues, not you."

 

Have to tell you, the one time I really told off a guy was when I heard him say something about how his DIL made him grab her b*** by being so attractive, in front of my DD and I, outside of church! I smiled at him and said, "Now, J**, you know I love you dearly, but if you EVER EVER lay a hand on my daughter, ESPECIALLY if you say or imply that she MADE you do this, I will have to kill you." Because I was smiling, he heard me and didn't argue (he can be quite crude at times). But he knows I mean it. And I don't think I would have stood up to him quite a clearly on my own behalf. It's hard.

[Amy in TX]

Yes, sadly I've heard that too and that's what I was trying to counter in my post. :o)

[Rosie_0801]

I hate the hugging thing. One of my friend's husbands is really huggy and I know he doesn't mean anything inappropriate by it, it's just a cultural difference. I've had to remind him a few times, which I really hate doing, but well, he shouldn't need reminding. All I've said is "I'm sorry, it's in no way anything against you as a person, I just don't feel comfortable hugging other people's husbands." My sister and I are both like that. We usually lean on our younger brother, stick our legs on him when we're sitting on the couch and generally treat him like, a younger brother I guess! As soon as he gets a girlfriend though, we stop. Not because he cares, but because it's no longer appropriate. I remember being completely freaked out and offended when my SIL came around for the first time and greeted me with her arm around her dear brother. "I beg your pardon girlie, but he's mine, not yours!" Siblings have certain privleges, but that's not ok!!

I've not minded when dh's younger mates have flirted with me. They had both been single for a while and were gearing up to go out looking for girlfriends. I think they were just practising their lines on someone safe. Dh and I had a private giggle about how cute they were. Then they got girlfriends and went back to normal :)

In your situation, I would try and fob it off, but eventually I'd have to be blunt. "Are you unable to speak to me without flirting? No offense Matey, but my hubby is better at it than you, so he's all I need! Knock it off." If he kept it up, I'd look down my nose and snigger at him and turn away until he got the message. Guys just hate to be laughed at. I don't think anyone loves it, but they seem particularly suseptible.

Rosie

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

Jennifer, from another petite person who is seen as a good listener, and has felt the injustice of being in awkard situations:

 

1.Cultivate your evil eye. You know, the one you give your children when they are threatening to flop a big hairy toe over the line.

 

2. Practice constant vigilance in the presence of men. Create an invisible boundary, and don't let anyone cross it. I know it is a pain. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all trust each other. Better to be thought an iceberg than an easy target.

 

Physical boundary- literally back up if someone gets to close. Choose handshakes over hugs, and don't be afraid to even keep your hand at your side, if someone sticks out thiers. I know someone who likes to hold ladies hands an little longer than necessary when he shakes their hand.

 

Social boundary- The instant you feel that tiny alarm bell ringing in your head, stop interacting socially with that person. You may be in the same room, but don't carry on a conversation or say anything personal, or even ask them how they are. Quiet reserve. If that person should say hello, smile and give a nod worthy of the Queen of England. I wonder how she has managed all these years.

 

Of course, you know there are exceptions. Genuinely nice guys exist, our dh's for example. But it is still better err on the side of caution.

[Kate in Arabia]

However, when I have spoken to Muslim men (in the US) about women that do not wear hijab (which is almost everyone) they call them very unpleasant sexually abusive names. Western women (in their minds) are asking for it.

 

I have seen you post this before, and it strikes me as a generalization. I have known many Muslims, both before and after I became Muslim, and I have never had anyone use that kind of language in my presence. I have known some who came to the US solely for the booze and women, and several immigrant Muslims who have carried cultural attitudes towards women in general from their home country, but imo the range of Muslims is so broad religiously and culturally it would be difficult to make a general statement as to what "Muslim men" think about non-hijab-wearing women. A close friend of mine is a Muslim woman who doesn't wear hijab, and I would guess that her husband doesn't think she is a [insert rude name].

 

On another note, I would like to point out that wearing hijab does not necessarily serve as a barrier against flirting, at least not in my experience. And I had a "touchy-feely" co-worker who would still hug my shoulders or stroke my arm, especially after a martini lunch :glare: