gardenmom5 Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 30 minutes ago, MercyA said: Just remember it is the leaders who are responsible, not most of the people. I love Arnold Schwarzeneger's video to the Russians: yeah. It can be hard to remember at times. People are not their gov't. And generally the more dictatorial a gov't the more people are afraid to speak out in fear of their lives. (re: the crackdown in Iran right now, they just executed 28 women for daring to speak out.) The best thing I can personally connect it to is my fil was a Japanese POW for 3 1/2 years during WWII. He did not hate the Japanese people, and he was not the only former POW who didn't hate the Japanese people either. He said he never saw a more grateful person than an older Japanese lady after the war was over, when he shared some of his food rations with her. (The army was air dropping food into the POW camps for the POWs before they were able to land and repatriate them.) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 Further info - there was a map that showed the transmission lines Russia was attempting to take out. The lines cross the border - and the missile that landed in Poland was right where those transmission lines are . . . 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 I'm seeing news sources starting to be very careful about the need to establish where this missile originated and hearing references to analyzing the debris, etc. My hunch is that they are becoming aware of the *possibility* that this may have been a Ukrainian defensive missile. Again, nothing conclusive here, but... Bill 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 3 hours ago, Terabith said: Right, I am sure they didn’t mean to attack Poland. But it wasn’t an accident, like they were transporting rockets and a plane crashed. They meant to attack someone. You were sure they didn’t mean to attack Poland? Why? OK. I disagree. I am sure they are testing waters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eos Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said: Some were predicting something would happen as they didn’t trust Russia’s rapid withdrawal. Yup. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 Zelenskyy made quite a speech today at the G20 meeting, and some see the rather extensive missile attacks throughout Ukraine including the capitol and Lviv, far to the west, as a response to it. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiewindmomma Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 9 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said: Zelenskyy made quite a speech today at the G20 meeting, and some see the rather extensive missile attacks throughout Ukraine including the capitol and Lviv, far to the west, as a response to it. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 The Russians have been humiliated by the strategic collapse of Kherson, which--among other things--provides the beginning of a path for the Ukrainians to push on towards Crimea and/or to cut the lines between the Donbas and northern Crimea. Putin is trying to hit infrastructure such as the electrical grid and water supplies to increase misery in Ukraine as winter comes. Bill 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 (edited) News here is saying that Poland president has released a statement that they are unsure who fired the missiles. And most likely a one off incident. I don't know how to copy links on my phone but it is in the Australian ABC live feed from a few minutes ago Edited November 16, 2022 by Melissa in Australia 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terabith Posted November 16, 2022 Author Share Posted November 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Roadrunner said: You were sure they didn’t mean to attack Poland? Why? OK. I disagree. I am sure they are testing waters. Because Poland is a NATO nation, and even Putin probably doesn't want a world war. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 55 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said: News here is saying that Poland president has released a statement that they are unsure who fired the missiles. And most likely a one off incident. I don't know how to copy links on my phone but it is in the Australian ABC live feed from a few minutes ago It feels like when the aircraft went down a few years back to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Roadrunner said: You were sure they didn’t mean to attack Poland? Why? OK. I disagree. I am sure they are testing waters. You have history of living in Eastern Europe? My feeling is Russia has done that kind of thing before. Done something borderline that could be passed off as an accident to see what response it gets? Is that your take? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 President Biden just said it was unlikely the missile was fired from Russia. Bill 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, Spy Car said: President Biden just said it was unlikely the missile was fired from Russia. Bill Warsaw said it was Russian made - so I will assume the jury is still out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Spy Car said: President Biden just said it was unlikely the missile was fired from Russia. Bill Funny choice of wording hey. From versus by. Edited November 16, 2022 by Ausmumof3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said: Warsaw said it was Russian made - so I will assume the jury is still out. The S-300 surface-to-air missiles that UKR forces use are Russian made. I realize there is an irony in the situation. Bill Edited November 16, 2022 by Spy Car 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said: Warsaw said it was Russian made - so I will assume the jury is still out. The Ukrainians do have a lot of Soviet era Russian made stuff as well I think. But then US and others (understandably) may want the waters to be muddy enough that there’s no need for action 😞 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said: Funny choice of wording hey. It is "diplomacy-speak." I studied in university. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said: The Ukrainians do have a lot of Soviet era Russian made stuff as well I think. But then US and others (understandably) may want the waters to be muddy enough that there’s no need for action 😞 Photos were released of the debris. They suggest an S-300 SAM missile. Bill 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said: You have history of living in Eastern Europe? My feeling is Russia has done that kind of thing before. Done something borderline that could be passed off as an accident to see what response it gets? Is that your take? Yes, sadly. Enough first hand experience with wars with them. My speculation (purely mine) is they want to force Ukraine to the negotiating table now. If they can terrorize population enough to force politicians to soften their support of Ukraine and hence force Ukraine to the table, why not? They are planning on freezing Western Europeans (anybody want a link to how they are boasting about it in the ad?) by blowing up gas pipeline. They are terrorizing Ukrainians by destroying infrastructure. Now they can create very unpleasant situation on Polish border by “accident.” More things escalate, more they can say, look, we want to negotiate, why don’t you force Ukraine into concessions? Russian TV today out loud wondered how Poland is liking “having Belgorod” on their border alluding to the Russian region where war periodically spills over. I also think they want to see how NATO reacts and how much they can get away. Of course it’s very much possible that it was an accident, but certainly not something anybody should be sure about. Anybody who wants to get a glimpse into the thinking of Russian regime should watch Russian Media Monitor on Twitter. Russian journalist outs subtitles to daily rants on Russian TV. And of course, for anybody who wants to understand the population, please read Anne Applebaum. Here is her latest: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/12/putin-russia-must-lose-ukraine-war-imperial-future/671891/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Roadrunner said: Yes, sadly. Enough first hand experience with wars with them. My speculation (purely mine) is they want to force Ukraine to the negotiating table now. If they can terrorize population enough to force politicians to soften their support of Ukraine and hence force Ukraine to the table, why not? They are planning on freezing Western Europeans (anybody want a link to how they are boasting about it in the ad?) by blowing up gas pipeline. They are terrorizing Ukrainians by destroying infrastructure. Now they can create very unpleasant situation on Polish border by “accident.” More things escalate, more they can say, look, we want to negotiate, why don’t you force Ukraine into concessions? Russian TV today out loud wondered how Poland is liking “having Belgorod” on their border alluding to the Russian region where war periodically spills over. I also think they want to see how NATO reacts and how much they can get away. Of course it’s very much possible that it was an accident, but certainly not something anybody should be sure about. Anybody who wants to get a glimpse into the thinking of Russian regime should watch Russian Media Monitor on Twitter. Russian journalist outs subtitles to daily rants on Russian TV. And of course, for anybody who wants to understand the population, please read Anne Applebaum. Here is her latest: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/12/putin-russia-must-lose-ukraine-war-imperial-future/671891/ Putin's "plan" to freeze Western Europeans isn't going to work. In fact, the Europeans have a gut of stockpiled natural gas. So much gas that there are currently ships carrying LNG waiting just offshore while they hope for supplies to go down and storage capacity to rise. Part of this glut of gas is due to the good luck of a relatively warm autumn in Europe, but we (the USA) and others have done our parts to replace Russian gas. Putin is not proving to be a strategic genius. Bill Edited November 16, 2022 by Spy Car 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 6 hours ago, MercyA said: Just remember it is the leaders who are responsible, not most of the people. I love Arnold Schwarzeneger's video to the Russians: I do not hate all Russians. I pray for all those in gulags now because they opposed the invasion. It is not a free country and hasn't been for almost all of my life. I hate the N. Korean govt too. And not their populace. And I can list many others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 54 minutes ago, Spy Car said: Putin's "plan" to freeze Western Europeans isn't going to work. In fact, the Europeans have a gut of stockpiled natural gas. So much gas that there are currently ships carrying LNG waiting just offshore while they hope for supplies to go down and storage capacity to rise. Part of this glut of gas is due to the good luck of a relatively warm autumn in Europe, but we (the USA) and others have done our parts to replace Russian gas. Putin is not proving to be a strategic genius. Bill Things aren’t as well in Germany though last I read. https://www.npr.org/2022/09/27/1124448463/germany-coal-energy-crisis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 31 minutes ago, Roadrunner said: Things aren’t as well in Germany though last I read. https://www.npr.org/2022/09/27/1124448463/germany-coal-energy-crisis It is inarguably bad for the environment to burn coal, but this article that explains Germany's coal burning energy capacity only amplifies the miscalculation by Putin that he can make Europe "freeze" this winter. Europe has made moves to have alternate energy supplies to compensate for the loss of Russian supplies. As I said, Putin is not proving to be a strategic genius. Bill 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 I know they were doing that last winter too after the war started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 (edited) Just up here in LA, but it looks like all parties are acknowledging that this was a UKR S-300 missile that was fired in self-defense. Bill Edited November 16, 2022 by Spy Car 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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