Transcripts Question

[RubyPenn]

What do you do on a transcript when your child has taken music lessons and orchestra all four years of high school?  My son will have 4 credits for this.  What about 3 or 4 credits of physical education? 

Edited September 23, 2022 by RubyPenn

[MamaSprout]

I put her 12 years of piano in as an extracurricular, but music theory in as a semester credit course, even though it was spread out over 18 months.

We dropped PE from her transcript, even though she had legit PE credit. She had been accepted to early college boarding school and would have needed it, but then decided not to go.

[kokotg]

With my oldest who had taken piano lessons, I counted it as a fine arts credit for one year and he just put it as an extracurricular the other years. With my kid who was headed to music school and had a TON of music (i.e. plenty to go around for transcript credit and extracurricular stuff) I gave him credit for something like "music performance" every year. The important thing is that you don't count the same hours as both an extracurricular and a class on the transcript. For PE, we do a lot of hiking as a family, so I counted that as a half credit for PE in case any colleges wanted to see that he had one. Had either of them played a sport, that would have been an EC (or if either had been super light on ECs, I probably would have suggested they assign the hiking to that instead)

Edited September 23, 2022 by kokotg

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, RubyPenn said:

What do you do on a transcript when your child has taken music lessons and orchestra all four years of high school?  My son will have 4 credits for this.  What about 3 or 4 credits of physical education? 

We are putting it as extracurricular and finding there is no way in 150 characters to even list 1% of what was accomplished. So anticlimactic. 😉

[Clemsondana]

We adjust based on the kid's interests and cumulative set of activities.  My older is not interested in or skilled at fine arts.  We put together a credit with several activities, including a year of ringing bells with our church's youth choir.  My younger, who is not yet in high school, will potentially sing in the youth choir, play bells in the youth ensemble, and play violin in the youth praise band for all or most of high school.  In that case, it's worth emphasizing that as a time-consuming extracurricular while in my older's case it's not.  My older plays a sport on the high school team, and we chose to count a summer of off-season conditioning as PE.  Kid spends plenty of hours at practice and working out with the team, but that is better emphasized as an extracurricular rather than many credits of PE.  

We may run into an interesting situation with my younger, who does martial arts and also a sport.  Once in high school, kid may also work as a paid instructor at the martial arts school.  If that occurs, we'll have to think about how we attribute the various hours.  Most likely we'll have work and extracurricular time and then maybe count one of the classes that is more about conditioning as PE.  If kid continues with their sport, we may count out-of-season conditioning, camps, or clinics as PE and then the actual team activities as extracurricular.  Or kid may take a co-op PE class with friends for that credit, despite being active.  Our state wants 1 credit each of PE and fine arts so we do that, but I won't list additional PE.  I might list additional fine arts for younger if kid decides to take multiple fine arts-related classes at co-op - something like an art, choir or theater class that doesn't do much outside of co-op, while if kid joined a youth theater production then I'd list it as extracurricular.  

edited to add - Not everything needs to go on the transcript.  It's likely that my kids will have co-op classes that they choose to take, or activities that they've pursued, that won't be documented on their transcript. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Clemsondana

[EKS]

You need to be careful about making sure that you don't call something a class that you are also calling an extracurricular unless the hours are there.  For my son with guitar, we called his involvement with that a class for the first two years of high school (for which he received 1 credit) and an extracurricular for the last two years.

For PE, he had 0.5 credits of health and 1.5 credits of generic PE.  I only required 2 credits total, which is the same as what is required at the public high school here. 

 

[lewelma]

I listed 'Music Performance 9' 10, 11, and 12 on the transcript in addition to a half class in Music theory. The music performance was just for his private lessons and the recitals. I included all the exams he did in music within the course descriptions.

His Orchestra and Chamber music were put down as EC. 

Here are the Course descriptions in case they help:

Music Theory. (Private tutor, taken before 9th grade, 0.5 credits)
This course focused on the notations of western music including intervals, time signatures, keys, scales,
and chords. Skill was developed in constructing balanced rhythmic patterns and completing given
melodic or harmonic structures. The formal exam required an ability to apply theoretical knowledge and
understanding to musical score analysis.
ABRSM grade 5 Music Theory Exam: Distinction

Music Performance 9, 10, and 11. (Private tutor, 1 credit each year)
These courses focused on violin technical skill, creative interpretation, scales, sight reading, and musical
appreciation. They also had a strong oral and aural musical component. Quarterly performances focused
on stage presence and confidence and required working synergistically with piano accompaniment. These
courses were designed and taught by xxxx xxxxxx, (important title listed here)
ABRSM Violin Grade 7 exam: Distinction
ABRSM Violin Grade 8 exam: Distinction. High Scorer

Music Performance – DipABRSM. (Private tutor, 1 credit)
This university-level course and diploma focused on compiling and performing a balance recital program,
talking with confidence about the music, and sight reading at a high level. The program required working
closely with a pianist to create balanced and compelling sound. Full program notes were written to discuss
music choices and interpretation. This course was designed and taught by xxxx xxxxxx, (important title
listed here). This course and the accompanying exam fulfilled the requirements of the Diploma of Music
Performance through the Royal Schools of Music in the UK.
DipABRSM – Tertiary Diploma in Music Performance for Violin (expected Nov 2017)

[RubyPenn]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

I listed 'Music Performance 9' 10, 11, and 12 on the transcript in addition to a half class in Music theory. The music performance was just for his private lessons and the recitals. I included all the exams he did in music within the course descriptions.

His Orchestra and Chamber music were put down as EC. 

Here are the Course descriptions in case they help:

Music Theory. (Private tutor, taken before 9th grade, 0.5 credits)
This course focused on the notations of western music including intervals, time signatures, keys, scales,
and chords. Skill was developed in constructing balanced rhythmic patterns and completing given
melodic or harmonic structures. The formal exam required an ability to apply theoretical knowledge and
understanding to musical score analysis.
ABRSM grade 5 Music Theory Exam: Distinction

Music Performance 9, 10, and 11. (Private tutor, 1 credit each year)
These courses focused on violin technical skill, creative interpretation, scales, sight reading, and musical
appreciation. They also had a strong oral and aural musical component. Quarterly performances focused
on stage presence and confidence and required working synergistically with piano accompaniment. These
courses were designed and taught by xxxx xxxxxx, (important title listed here)
ABRSM Violin Grade 7 exam: Distinction
ABRSM Violin Grade 8 exam: Distinction. High Scorer

Music Performance – DipABRSM. (Private tutor, 1 credit)
This university-level course and diploma focused on compiling and performing a balance recital program,
talking with confidence about the music, and sight reading at a high level. The program required working
closely with a pianist to create balanced and compelling sound. Full program notes were written to discuss
music choices and interpretation. This course was designed and taught by xxxx xxxxxx, (important title
listed here). This course and the accompanying exam fulfilled the requirements of the Diploma of Music
Performance through the Royal Schools of Music in the UK.
DipABRSM – Tertiary Diploma in Music Performance for Violin (expected Nov 2017)

Thank you for these.  Very helpful.

[regentrude]

23 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

We are putting it as extracurricular and finding there is no way in 150 characters to even list 1% of what was accomplished. So anticlimactic. 😉

You can highlight that more in the counselor letter or the essay

[ByGrace3]

My dd has enough to be a credit each year and extra curricular. She plays piano, takes lessons, plays lead keys in the student ministry band and is a praise and worship leader for the kids ministry as well as helping lead in their 4th and 5th grade worship discipleship ministry. I put Piano and Performance 1-4.

[ScoutTN]

My Dd doesn’t need piano as a credit, so we are leaving it as a strong EC. She participated in a selective piano camp this summer, so reasonably high achievement level. 

[catz]

I did music 9, music 10, and music 11 each as one credit and listed at honors level (she took 45 minute to 1 hour lessons in 2 instruments those 3 years).  My transcript includes a description document so I have details of private lessons, performances, average practice times, etc.   She is dual enrolling music for 12th grade (and is doing private lessons through a university) so that is listed a little different.  That is actually going to be EIGHT college credits (she is being treated as a music major) but showing it as 1 high school credit with a note explaining.  

I listed ensemble music stuff as an extracurricular.  

I do agree not to list something as BOTH.  In fact in my descriptions, I have a note about ensemble stuff being an extracurricular.  

Both my students listed music but had considerably over the minimum credits required for college graduation.  I did feel like music was part of their academics through high school (and before for that matter).  

ETA - I absolutely HATE the activities section on the common app.  It is so limited.  I would love to redesign that section for them.  

Edited September 26, 2022 by catz

[skimomma]

My dd spent at least 3 hours daily on music.  It was a big factor in continuing to homeschool through high school....allowing time and space for this.  Lessons (multiple instruments), rehearsals, her own practice, performances, recording sessions, etc.....  We struggled with this question as well.  I could easily have indicated significant credit on the transcript and still have justification for ECs.  In the end, I decided to count only one credit to tick off the "fine art" requirement that some colleges are looking for and left the rest as EC.  She did not need the credits and I did not want to look like I was padding her GPA.

Same with PE.  Again, dd was deeply involved in her sport and fitness in general.  In this case, I left it all as EC and I did an old school PE class one year where I assigned tracking of her activities, assessment, reporting, reading, and other health-related assignments for the official credit, leaving the sport itself as pure EC.  Again, she did not need the credit and I did not want to "pad."  Ironically, it was this course that she slacked in, resulting in one of only two Bs in high school.

In both cases, I would have considered a different route had she planned to pursue music school or any sport/fitness-related degree program.  As a college student she is still deeply involved in music and significantly so in her sport, but neither have anything to do with the degree program she is pursuing so I think it was the right decision.

[RubyPenn]

22 minutes ago, skimomma said:

My dd spent at least 3 hours daily on music.  It was a big factor in continuing to homeschool through high school....allowing time and space for this.  Lessons (multiple instruments), rehearsals, her own practice, performances, recording sessions, etc.....  We struggled with this question as well.  I could easily have indicated significant credit on the transcript and still have justification for ECs.  In the end, I decided to count only one credit to tick off the "fine art" requirement that some colleges are looking for and left the rest as EC.  She did not need the credits and I did not want to look like I was padding her GPA.

Same with PE.  Again, dd was deeply involved in her sport and fitness in general.  In this case, I left it all as EC and I did an old school PE class one year where I assigned tracking of her activities, assessment, reporting, reading, and other health-related assignments for the official credit, leaving the sport itself as pure EC.  Again, she did not need the credit and I did not want to "pad."  Ironically, it was this course that she slacked in, resulting in one of only two Bs in high school.

In both cases, I would have considered a different route had she planned to pursue music school or any sport/fitness-related degree program.  As a college student she is still deeply involved in music and significantly so in her sport, but neither have anything to do with the degree program she is pursuing so I think it was the right decision.

Padding the transcript is something I have been concerned about as well, but he wants to major in music, so maybe I should just give the credits.

[catz]

18 minutes ago, RubyPenn said:

Padding the transcript is something I have been concerned about as well, but he wants to major in music, so maybe I should just give the credits.

My daughter is auditioning for music programs and planning to major in music too.  I actually did the same for my older son - listing private lessons, practice, solo performance, etc as a credit and ensemble stuff as an extracurricular and he did pretty great with admissions and merit.  He was applying for double degree programs with music.  And he will graduate with a double degree this year.  

I also was nervous about transcript padding.  I explained honors designation that I gave in my profile document.  Like if something was twice was an average high school sequence would be doing, it got the designation.  Like we would do twice as many lit selections for English in grade 9 and 10 (and then transitioned to dual enrollment).  I actually tried to spell it out and highlight it better this time around.  

[kokotg]

43 minutes ago, RubyPenn said:

Padding the transcript is something I have been concerned about as well, but he wants to major in music, so maybe I should just give the credits.

If he's planning on a BM and a program that he needs to audition into, then definitely don't overthink it. The audition is going to be by far the most important part of his application. 

[Farrar]

I genuinely don't think this matters as much as homeschoolers hand wring about it.

If the student is lower on credits or has a ton of activities, it's a credit. If the student is lower on activities or has a ton of credits, it's an activity. 

If the student did the thing (the sport, the music, etc.) a ton, then it may be both. Carve it out however it looks best for the kid. I agree with things others are saying. For music, the music theory is the class, the other part is the activity. Or the instrument lessons are the class, the composing and performing are the activity. 

If the schools a student is applying to require fine arts, regardless of the above, the music (or theater or art or whatever) is at least a credit or two, depending. Most schools don't, but the UC's and a few others do.

Schools don't really care about PE. But I carved out Stretch and Conditioning as my kid's PE credits from his ballet.

[catz]

38 minutes ago, kokotg said:

If he's planning on a BM and a program that he needs to audition into, then definitely don't overthink it. The audition is going to be by far the most important part of his application. 

Well this can depend on the school/university too.  I just got told that academic admissions and music admissions were entirely separate at one tour we were just on and that the music department had no pull in the admissions office.  

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, catz said:

Well this can depend on the school/university too.  I just got told that academic admissions and music admissions were entirely separate at one tour we were just on and that the music department had no pull in the admissions office.  

yes, although I think it's pretty rare that academic admissions and music admissions are completely separate. I've heard that's true at our state flagship (which is selective these days). You definitely want to be in range for an academic admit so that they know you can do handle the non-music classes, but usually the music school gets who they want as long as the academic stats aren't totally out of line with the usual admits. But definitely worth checking with individual schools. But, at any rate, the odds are vanishingly small that whether some particular music activity is counted as an academic credit or an EC is going to be a deciding factor for admission at any school.

[catz]

9 minutes ago, kokotg said:

yes, although I think it's pretty rare that academic admissions and music admissions are completely separate. I've heard that's true at our state flagship (which is selective these days). You definitely want to be in range for an academic admit so that they know you can do handle the non-music classes, but usually the music school gets who they want as long as the academic stats aren't totally out of line with the usual admits. But definitely worth checking with individual schools. But, at any rate, the odds are vanishingly small that whether some particular music activity is counted as an academic credit or an EC is going to be a deciding factor for admission at any school.

Oh I totally agree on your last point.  I think as homeschoolers we hem and haw, but at the end of the day if your kid is reasonably well represented in the application across the board, that won't make a big difference!

And this was at like a top 15 public university where we were touring.  🙂  Northwestern is pretty strict this way too, I know UMichigan does an academic screen before inviting you to audition.  

[kokotg]

2 minutes ago, catz said:

 

And this was at like a top 15 public university where we were touring.  🙂  Northwestern is pretty strict this way too, I know UMichigan does an academic screen before inviting you to audition.  

Really?! How would they even ever get any of the musicians they wanted that way? My music kid is at Vanderbilt, and his stats were in range for Vanderbilt, but it's just such a crapshoot that the odds are very low he'd have gotten in if it weren't to the music school. His clarinet teacher has a friend who teaches at Eastman who apparently gets annoyed that he can't have everyone he wants because of academic stuff...but I gather it's more kids who would just be automatically out for academic admission because their stats are so out of range. That's more how I think of the academic screen--not "would we definitely accept this kid if the music school weren't involved" but "is there be a reasonable chance we would admit this kid based on scores/grades/etc.?"

[catz]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

Really?! How would they even ever get any of the musicians they wanted that way? My music kid is at Vanderbilt, and his stats were in range for Vanderbilt, but it's just such a crapshoot that the odds are very low he'd have gotten in if it weren't to the music school. His clarinet teacher has a friend who teaches at Eastman who apparently gets annoyed that he can't have everyone he wants because of academic stuff...but I gather it's more kids who would just be automatically out for academic admission because their stats are so out of range. That's more how I think of the academic screen--not "would we definitely accept this kid if the music school weren't involved" but "is there be a reasonable chance we would admit this kid based on scores/grades/etc.?"

yOh well my older kid did audition at UMichigan and had a great experience there (but does not attend there, he got a better financial offer).  They don't pre-admit you before audition.  They screen to you to make sure you would be in the seriously considered for admission pool.   I suspect northwestern may be similar that way.  We toured and he considered that, but they had extra hoops for homeschoolers prior to covid that we had no time to jump into with music applications that I found completely ridiculous.  But we're in the Midwest, I know lots of people who've applied and some who attend.  I heard people have had very positive sample lessons and then were thrown out of the process by academic admissions there.  

Just as an aside, I've heard some fairly mediocre musical performances out of some of these high end university music programs.  So maybe they end up admitting a range of music students at the end of the day.  

This other public university actually surprised me by saying that admissions are COMPLETELY separate.  And it was the director of undergrad music admissions that told me this.  It actually does have me re-thinking how we are presenting some info.  This is a program my kid really likes and she really clicked with the teacher she had a sample lesson with too.   OOS admissions at some of these better publics is getting crazy competitive and their stats don't well reflect what OOS stats need to be, especially out of areas with high number of applicants.  She is kind of the border of the include test scores lines so still struggling what to do with that.  But she will have over 40 college credits at graduation so she has other good data.  

Anyway - I've now toured like 20+ music programs (can't wait to retire lol) and I suspect there is a wide range of influence that the music department has on academic admissions.  Like I know a student that seriously struggled with academics and had test scores no where in range that got into Oberlin.  And she graduated as a music student!  🙂 

My kids do music stuff in a major metro at some big regional programs, so I just tangentially hear a lot about this process.  

 

[regentrude]

5 hours ago, RubyPenn said:

Padding the transcript is something I have been concerned about as well, but he wants to major in music, so maybe I should just give the credits.

If he wants to major in music, absolutely include all the music stuff on the transcript. If you do it by subject, I would create a separate category for the music courses. But in addition, make sure his academic record is solid so that it's clear you are not padding for credits, but simply highlighting his music education in addition to the solid college prep academics he has done.

Edited September 26, 2022 by regentrude

[Roadrunner]

On 9/26/2022 at 9:28 AM, kokotg said:

Really?! How would they even ever get any of the musicians they wanted that way? My music kid is at Vanderbilt, and his stats were in range for Vanderbilt, but it's just such a crapshoot that the odds are very low he'd have gotten in if it weren't to the music school. His clarinet teacher has a friend who teaches at Eastman who apparently gets annoyed that he can't have everyone he wants because of academic stuff...but I gather it's more kids who would just be automatically out for academic admission because their stats are so out of range. That's more how I think of the academic screen--not "would we definitely accept this kid if the music school weren't involved" but "is there be a reasonable chance we would admit this kid based on scores/grades/etc.?"

Even at the conservatory? I mean a kid competitive at Peabody would have put so many hours of practice and performance ensembles to even get there, how on earth could they be competitive for JHU admits academically? That is scary. 
 

But at top publics, I don’t know what is happening really. We know a girl who went to UCB for science, then changed her mind and majored in piano. She is below mediocre when accepted into major. It was never something she wanted but then once there, had a change of heart. 
Schools with conservatories though should be a completely different ballgame, I would think. 

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Even at the conservatory? I mean a kid competitive at Peabody would have put so many hours of practice and performance ensembles to even get there, how on earth could they be competitive for JHU admits academically? That is scary. 
 

But at top publics, I don’t know what is happening really. We know a girl who went to UCB for science, then changed her mind and majored in piano. She is below mediocre when accepted into major. It was never something she wanted but then once there, had a change of heart. 
Schools with conservatories though should be a completely different ballgame, I would think. 

Peabody's sort of a special case because it's so separate from JHU. It's very hard to do a dual degree there, as I understand it, and it's fairly rare for Peabody students to take many classes at JHU. My son ended up withdrawing his application there, but he got far enough that I know that Peabody is pretty transparent about having relatively low academic standards for admission. But at somewhere like Oberlin or Vanderbilt there are lots of kids getting dual degrees and, even if they're not, pretty much all music students have to take some classes outside of the music school (though at Vanderbilt I've actually been surprised at how few this is; my son has enough AP and DE credits that he could get by only taking classes at Blair if he wanted), so they don't want students who won't succeed in those classes. And at Vanderbilt at least, it's very easy to change majors and no longer be in the music school at all. And a HUGE percentage of Blair students are doing another non-music major (my kid is one of the few he knows who isn't). But how high the wall of separation is between music school and the rest of the college varies a lot by school in all kinds of ways, including in how tied together academic admissions and music admissions are....unless you KNOW you're only applying to stand alone conservatories, it's hard to know how much your academics are going to matter. And, of course, high school kids change their minds all the time; it's very tricky to decide in 9th grade that a kid is going to a stand alone conservatory and doesn't need to worry about academics. 

[Roadrunner]

@kokotgdo you know in which other schools that have conservatories academics matter less? I wouldn’t even know how one gets to research those things. 
I always assumed at schools that don’t have auditions based acceptance into music (UCs come to mind along with most top universities), academics mattered a lot, but in ones that have auditions based acceptance, it mattered less especially if they had separate conservatories like Peabody and Eastman. 

[kokotg]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

@kokotgdo you know in which other schools that have conservatories academics matter less? I wouldn’t even know how one gets to research those things. 
I always assumed at schools that don’t have auditions based acceptance into music (UCs come to mind along with most top universities), academics mattered a lot, but in ones that have auditions based acceptance, it mattered less especially if they had separate conservatories like Peabody and Eastman. 

I don't. I don't know how transparent a lot of schools would be about it. Most schools that offer a BM are going to have audition-based acceptance into the music school, though, including state schools and other big universities...at least that's been my observation/experience.