Another test optional thread, need advice

[Eos]

I'm having a quandary.  I've long believed that "test optional" means homeschoolers should submit scores.  Dd is starting her apps, and for once I am stymied by what to recommend to her.  Her #1 choice is test-optional for yet another year and it looks like 56% of applicants submitted them for 2021.  I've followed their CDS for several years and scores have definitely gone up since they became test-optional, my guess is that kids with better scores keep submitting and lower scoring kids have stopped submitting. 

Her reading score is within their 50% but her math is just below, and she has no intention of retaking.  For rigor she has a couple of AP 5s, an A and an A- in two liberal arts college classes and is taking three more college classes this fall in which I would expect her to get As.  She has stellar ECs, excellent LORs, just the SAT that's not stellar. I am really not sure what she should do.  Thank you for advice, but please don't suggest she take it again because she will not.

[bibiche]

I would submit. An admissions officer told us that while schools truly are test optional, they like to have as much data as possible for homeschooled students. If she were closer to or below 25% I would hesitate, but with 50% + - I think you’re good. 

[Roadrunner]

I have asked this same question. I would submit as a homeschooler unless it’s absolutely out of range for the schools she is applying. I wouldn’t submit if she is one of the hooked ones - athlete, URM…

[Farrar]

I would probably submit if I'm understanding. The verbal is well within the mid-50, the overall is within the mid-50 and the math is just below? And their mid-50 has had a steady increase over the last two years? Then yes.

However - and I know y'all aren't going to listen, but I'll say it yet again - my own kid got into many schools test optional, including a couple of programs at universities where the program had a less than 50% acceptance rate. I've also personally seen many other homeschoolers do fine, and get into even more selective programs test optional. Many of them. And some very, very selective colleges. Again, I know no one believes me here for some reason and is convinced that homeschoolers always have to submit no matter what, but there's plenty of evidence to the contrary when you're ready to get over your confirmation bias.

I do suggest that homeschoolers think less about submitting if they're more on the cusp, especially if there's not other outside validation like AP scores or DE grades.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Farrar

[kokotg]

I'm surprised to see people saying she should submit them with a score under the 25th percentile. I've always figured my 11th grader won't submit his anywhere where he's below their average, but maybe I've been thinking about it wrong. Would the advice be different for a non-homeschooler? 

[madteaparty]

44 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I'm surprised to see people saying she should submit them with a score under the 25th percentile. I've always figured my 11th grader won't submit his anywhere where he's below their average, but maybe I've been thinking about it wrong. Would the advice be different for a non-homeschooler? 

Her child’s score is not at or under the 25% percentile. 

[kokotg]

23 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

Her child’s score is not at or under the 25% percentile. 

It sounds like the math is. I’m taking “their 50%” to mean the 25-75th percentile range. ETA: although it sounds like other people are reading that differently. So I might well be wrong!

Edited September 13, 2022 by kokotg

[bibiche]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

I'm surprised to see people saying she should submit them with a score under the 25th percentile. I've always figured my 11th grader won't submit his anywhere where he's below their average, but maybe I've been thinking about it wrong. Would the advice be different for a non-homeschooler? 

She said her daughter is just below 50%. Also, after a certain threshold, score differences aren’t that important. I don’t think a kid who gets 1500, for example, will do any worse than a kid who gets a 1540. Would your son not submit even if he got a 1500 if that were below average? Scores are skewing ever higher because kids aren’t submitting what previously would have been considered great scores. At some point no one but perfect scorers will submit if that continues!

[easypeasy]

3 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I have asked this same question. I would submit as a homeschooler unless it’s absolutely out of range for the schools she is applying. I wouldn’t submit if she is one of the hooked ones - athlete, URM…

Recruited athletes are required to submit their scores for NCAA/NAIA purposes, aren't they? At least, that's how it used to be!

To the OP, I would submit since she is still in their "sweet spot" of accepted students. I think it's one of those "who knows" applications. If she gets in, you can rest easy. If she doesn't, it's not necessarily a signal that this was the wrong decision - she's just in the "it could go either way" situations!

Also, some schools are score optional, but in order to apply to specific programs or honors programs or scholarships, the student IS required to send in a score anyway.

In my own personal experience, homeschoolers who have not submitted scores have had struggles and have been turned away from schools, programs, and scholarships that they had every right to reasonably expect an acceptance. I see that @Farrar has very different anecdotal experiences from my own, so obviously it's not an exact science! 🙂  You make a choice, hold your breath, and hope for the best! 😁

Edited September 13, 2022 by easypeasy

[kokotg]

37 minutes ago, bibiche said:

She said her daughter is just below 50%. Also, after a certain threshold, score differences aren’t that important. I don’t think a kid who gets 1500, for example, will do any worse than a kid who gets a 1540. Would your son not submit even if he got a 1500 if that were below average? Scores are skewing ever higher because kids aren’t submitting what previously would have been considered great scores. At some point no one but perfect scorers will submit if that continues!

It's the "within their 50%" wording that made me think she's talking about a range rather than a single number (and schools very often report their 25th-75th percentile score range). 

And it's true, he'd probably submit a 1500 no matter what (although pretty much any school where the average is over 1500 would be crapshoot territory for most any kid), so I guess my thinking on the topic changes depending on what score we're talking about. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by kokotg

[Roadrunner]

I think so much rests on definitions. What is a selective school? One defines it as 50% acceptance rate, another defines it differently. 
I would submit a score around 50%. If mine wanted to apply to STEM (and his application reflected it), I would not feel good about submitting with math being below. However if she is hoping to study liberal arts, I would worry about that math score a bit less.

But if this schools is 25% admit and less, then I wouldn’t go without scores as a homeschooler unless I had an amazing arts or music portfolio. 

[Farrar]

Yeah, a lot of things are being thrown around here.

The middle 50 means of their admitted students who submitted scores, not of all students applying. So if 50% of their students submitted between 1400-1450 and your kid has a 1410, but the math is a teense below the math middle 50 but the English is at the higher end of that range, it seems like a good bet. That's IF her other stats fit and the rest of her profile is a fit for the school. And it's part of a complete picture. It's hard to say for sure.

A selective school is simply any school that doesn't admit everyone or basically everyone. Most colleges are somewhat selective, but not all. When a school has an acceptance below 50%, then it's definitely selective! They literally don't take half the students that apply. When they're only taking 20 or 25% or less, it starts to become a lottery, especially if it's a smaller school. Even many students who are well within the stats won't get in. And that's a lottery for EVERYONE. I mean, assuming your kid didn't cure cancer, a school that accepted 19% of students last year is a reach for them. I don't care if their stats fit the stats of everyone admitted. At an acceptance rate like that, they're rejecting hundreds of kids who stats were also well within their range.

I take a bit of issue with the phrase "a right to expect" in terms of acceptance or scholarships. I think we should all be very careful with those expectations. And going into things thinking you have a right to a spot at a less competitive school... that's setting everyone up for potential disappointment.

As for test optional, in my experience, homeschoolers have struggled when they haven't done the other things that colleges want these days. My kid had dual enrollment, AP courses, and very clearly spelled out rigor that included solid English and humanities course book lists, textbooks for all science and math courses, and very strong letters of rec. Other homeschoolers I've seen do well with test optional have at least some of those things and possibly other things as well - published works, national level awards or recognitions, high profile internships, lots of AP scores even though they don't have an SAT/ACT they submit. Sometimes I hear about homeschoolers who "expected" to get into schools without any of that. None of it. And either nearly all home-based coursework or a large portion of basic online coursework through K-12 or the like.

I've also seen homeschoolers not get in places test optional. Or just struggle in admissions in general. In my experience their overall applications are usually lacking. And that's something folks don't like to hear, but is true. One thing that has really shifted is rigor of curriculum. And many colleges are dramatically more interested in that than they were a decade or more ago. And so folks talking about how their kid got in with no course descriptions and minimal paperwork and all home-based courses and all they needed was that 1500 SAT circa 2009... that same profile kid might not do as well these days. And if that same kid didn't take and submit any scores, they'd definitely not do as well. 

Here's the thing... everyone wants to take the advice they like. If you hear that Ann's kid got into X without an SAT score and Beth's kid got into X without any dual enrollment and Cathy's kid got into X without any AP classes and Debra's kid got into X with hardly any activities and Ella's kid got into X even though she blew off the essays... You can't take all that advice to heart because your kid would end up applying without anything of merit from the point of view of admissions. In other words, some kids desperately need test scores. Other kids don't. Parents aren't always good at understanding which kid is which.

[Eos]

Thank you all for these thoughts.  @Roadrunner I think I even replied to your earlier thread with yes, test optional means not for homeschoolers...and here we are in the same dilemma.  I just did the math with more accuracy and her math score really is at about their 35th percentile and her English is at their 70th percentile.  Sigh.  But I also re-read the numbers of applicants submitting scores and it was only 34% not 56% so quite a bit fewer than I had previously seen.

[rzberrymom]

I wouldn’t submit with a math score at 35% and with as much outside validation as she has.

I’m totally speculating but I think schools may be really benefiting from this test optional stuff since it allows them to raise their average test score and therefore rise in the rankings. Kids are less likely to submit if the scores are low, the schools take the ones with the high scores and their ranking goes up. So, I would be extra nervous about submitting a low score (unless there’s some hook like Roadrunner mentioned). But that’s just my gut feeling about all this.

Edited September 14, 2022 by rzberrymom

[madteaparty]

6 hours ago, easypeasy said:

Recruited athletes are required to submit their scores for NCAA/NAIA purposes, aren't they? At least, that's how it used to be!

To the OP, I would submit since she is still in their "sweet spot" of accepted students. I think it's one of those "who knows" applications. If she gets in, you can rest easy. If she doesn't, it's not necessarily a signal that this was the wrong decision - she's just in the "it could go either way" situations!

Also, some schools are score optional, but in order to apply to specific programs or honors programs or scholarships, the student IS required to send in a score anyway.

In my own personal experience, homeschoolers who have not submitted scores have had struggles and have been turned away from schools, programs, and scholarships that they had every right to reasonably expect an acceptance. I see that @Farrar has very different anecdotal experiences from my own, so obviously it's not an exact science! 🙂  You make a choice, hold your breath, and hope for the best! 😁

The scores required for athletes are in a while other category and borderline obscene from what I’ve heard from my kid’s sporty friend. 

[madteaparty]

2 hours ago, Eos said:

Thank you all for these thoughts.  @Roadrunner I think I even replied to your earlier thread with yes, test optional means not for homeschoolers...and here we are in the same dilemma.  I just did the math with more accuracy and her math score really is at about their 35th percentile and her English is at their 70th percentile.  Sigh.  But I also re-read the numbers of applicants submitting scores and it was only 34% not 56% so quite a bit fewer than I had previously seen.

Is that applicants who are submitting scores, or accepted students? There’s a difference between the two is the data sets memories serve. 

[Eos]

20 minutes ago, rzberrymom said:

But that’s just my gut feeling about all this.

Mine too, I think.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Eos

[Eos]

5 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

Is that applicants who are submitting scores, or accepted students? There’s a difference between the two is the data sets memories serve. 

Applicants submitting scores.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Eos

[madteaparty]

1 hour ago, Eos said:

Applicants submitting scores.

I think that’s a meaningless metric then. I looked at what percentage of *admitted* students submitted scores. Anyone can be an applicant (and that’s rather the point of all this, ugh.) sorry OP, soon you will be on the other side of this, which  where I am now and I tell you it’s lovely here…

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, Eos said:

Applicants submitting scores.

Did you find that on Common Data set? 
I just checked couple of schools and it’s usually scores of admitted students. 

[Farrar]

Yeah, the middle 50 pretty much always refers to admitted students, not applicants. Applicants would be useless. What would that even mean?

[Eos]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

Yeah, the middle 50 pretty much always refers to admitted students, not applicants. Applicants would be useless. What would that even mean?

Sorry, you're both right, I was talking to my elderly mother while typing.  Multi-tasking causes brain fog.

 

5 hours ago, madteaparty said:

I think that’s a meaningless metric then. I looked at what percentage of *admitted* students submitted scores. Anyone can be an applicant (and that’s rather the point of all this, ugh.) sorry OP, soon you will be on the other side of this, which  where I am now and I tell you it’s lovely here…

See above!

Edited September 14, 2022 by Eos

[Eos]

Thank you to all for good food for thought. I think she shouldn't submit them which is contrary to my long-held belief and the method of my three other homeschooled-to-college kids. 

I'm happy with the rest of her materials.  I don't know any other IRL homeschoolers who've done their own transcripts so I lurked here for years, devoured all leads offered by @Lori D. and googled a fair amount. I think I have strong templates for all the parts I have to pull together. She's had a different path from the others throughout her homeschool career, so why would I think I would just do what I've always done?  Thanks @madteapartyI am almost there...

[daijobu]

I've been hearing that students submitting scores are being admitted at a much higher rate than student who do not.  

[Roadrunner]

@daijobui feel stupid asking this, but how do I read that graphic?

I also heard kids submitting scores were two to three times as likely to get in, but it was in one of those webinars and I have no link, so I can’t support that number. 

[kokotg]

13 hours ago, daijobu said:

I've been hearing that students submitting scores are being admitted at a much higher rate than student who do not.  

 

That seems to be true, but I guess the question is are students being admitted at a lower rate because they didn't submit scores or is it because students who don't submit scores tend to be weaker applicants overall. I wonder how the data compares with schools that have been test optional for a long time as opposed to ones that have only gone that direction because of covid. 

[Roadrunner]

9 minutes ago, kokotg said:

That seems to be true, but I guess the question is are students being admitted at a lower rate because they didn't submit scores or is it because students who don't submit scores tend to be weaker applicants overall. I wonder how the data compares with schools that have been test optional for a long time as opposed to ones that have only gone that direction because of covid. 

That’s a good point. 
 

University of Chicago average SAT score is now up to 1530. They have been test optional for a while. I can’t find any info on what percentage actually submitted scores. 
 

86% of University of Michigan admits submitted scores. What we don’t know is how many who applied submitted scores. So it’s hard to know if they accepted kids at the same rate from each group. If 86% of kids applying submitted scores, then we could say it makes sense that roughly that many admitted would have scores. 
also (and I think this is a critical point) we don’t know what sort of students are the 14% that were admitted without scores. Are they predominantly musicians, dancers, artists - categories that would have had portfolios? Or are they athletes and URM and therefore a desirable group with hooks? Or kids with special family circumstances?

Or are they actually admitting engineering kids without a math score? Maybe. Hard to know anything. And I am not sure anecdotal evidence tells us much. 

[Farrar]

I want to say two things about that graphic.

One, yes, some schools really care. And some of them, like Auburn and Georgetown, are the exact schools on that list. Gee. Could it be that there's a data bias...

Second, oh yes, the data is cherry picked. I have seen data from other schools so that's not even true that these are the only schools that ever said, but most haven't released. And it seems to me that there's been a pretty big overlap between schools that have said and schools that everyone already knew cared a lot about the scores. Some of the schools not releasing are just tight lipped. But others are trying to hide just how many they admitted. Because they don't want to be said to be "lowering standards." And they like that their scores rose overall because that makes them look good. And they specifically don't want to discourage test optional applicants because they like them.

Third, if you have a kid who is competitive for the school's stats but doesn't have competitive scores, then what's the alternative? Just not even try? Submit scores that you know could hold them back just because they're out of line with the way the college is trying to raise their numbers infinitely? Kids who have the coursework, the grades, the awards, the volunteer hours, the interesting experiences, the amazing essays, etc. are getting into lots of schools test optional, including highly rejectives. If that's your kid, with an internship in a famous lab, and two Scholastic Golds, and a national robotics championship, and a 4.0 in dual enrollment (or imagine some other realistic but obviously solid profile)... but they can't seem to raise their 1350... it would be absurd to just say, oh well, guess I won't even bother. Because some of those kids are getting in. The thing I see - which I referenced earlier in this thread - is that many parents think their kids have the stats when, bluntly, they do not. And that's not only a homeschool problem. That's also school parents.

[Roadrunner]

Honestly, if they don’t care about test scores, stop releasing them altogether. Better yet, either require everybody to submit or nobody to submit. And still, stop releasing them. Because if you have an amazing applicant with a low score, and you as an institution claim that you don’t care about scores, it shouldn’t stop you from accepting that kid. Most schools are holistic. So require from all and only use it as one metric in instances where it might help. Problem solved. Or go test blind.  

Edited September 15, 2022 by Roadrunner

[EmilyGF]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Honestly, if they don’t care about test scores, stop releasing them altogether. Better yet, either require everybody to submit or nobody to submit. And still, stop releasing them. Because if you have an amazing applicant with a low score, and you as an institution claim that you don’t care about scores, it shouldn’t stop you from accepting that kid. Most schools are holistic. So require from all and only use it as one metric in instances where it might help. Problem solved. Or go test blind.  

There are reasons they don't ask for scores and it is because they don't want to see certain ones - it could open them to lawsuits in the future.

[Malam]

On 9/13/2022 at 6:12 AM, Eos said:

Her reading score is within their 50% but her math is just below

By "their 50%" do you meant the range from the25th to 75th percentile, under which 50% of admitted students fell? So her math score would be under the 25th percentile?

  

On 9/13/2022 at 12:25 PM, Farrar said:

And some very, very selective colleges. Again, I know no one believes me here for some reason and is convinced that homeschoolers always have to submit no matter what, but there's plenty of evidence to the contrary when you're ready to get over your confirmation bias.

From what I've heard from SLAC adcoms, they like test optional since they don't have to worry about rejecting an otherwsie great student due to poor test scores

Edited September 15, 2022 by Malam

[Roadrunner]

37 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

There are reasons they don't ask for scores and it is because they don't want to see certain ones - it could open them to lawsuits in the future.

Could you elaborate? Are you referring to the Harvard lawsuit? 
If you have holistic admissions and test is just one element of many, how can that be an issue? 
And if you think test is important, why accept kids with very low scores? But if you don’t think it’s important, why ask for them at all? 
I just think for homeschooled kids who often feel pressured to supply the score, and who are now seeing average scores skyrocket, it isn’t the fair game. I think it’s fair to either all submit, or none. 

[Malam]

17 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

@daijobui feel stupid asking this, but how do I read that graphic?

I also heard kids submitting scores were two to three times as likely to get in, but it was in one of those webinars and I have no link, so I can’t support that number. 

300% means at that school, students who submit scores are 3x as likely to be admitted as students who don't. My take is that most of the extra TO-rejects are coming from students with weak applications who otherwise wouldn't have even applied.

  

51 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

There are reasons they don't ask for scores and it is because they don't want to see certain ones - it could open them to lawsuits in the future.

Right - aside from low scores lowering the average SAT score of the admitted class, a low-scoring high-achieving admit who fails is an avoidably poor decision on an adcoms part. But a test-optional high-achieving admit who fails is just bad luck and not blameworthy.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Malam

[GoodGrief3]

Test optional is such a tricky situation. My applicant last year had scores that were good, not great, and it was tough trying to figure out what the best strategy would be for her.

I tend to think that for unhooked applicants (and probably homeschoolers), submitting test scores does matter, If you are not submitting test scores, particularly to a very selective school, the rest of the package needs to be exceptionally strong.

There was one school last year where I do think submitting test scores possibly hurt my daughter, based on online anecdotes by a large number of applicants.

If your daughter is not a STEM major, the high reading score might help her.

[Malam]

36 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

There was one school last year where I do think submitting test scores possibly hurt my daughter, based on online anecdotes by a large number of applicants

Which one? What sort of anecdotes?

Edited September 15, 2022 by Malam

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, GoodGrief3 said:

Test optional is such a tricky situation. My applicant last year had scores that were good, not great, and it was tough trying to figure out what the best strategy would be for her.

I tend to think that for unhooked applicants (and probably homeschoolers), submitting test scores does matter, If you are not submitting test scores, particularly to a very selective school, the rest of the package needs to be exceptionally strong.

There was one school last year where I do think submitting test scores possibly hurt my daughter, based on online anecdotes by a large number of applicants.

If your daughter is not a STEM major, the high reading score might help her.

I think so too. 

[Eos]

3 hours ago, Malam said:

So her math score would be under the 25th percentile?

I re-figured it at their 35 percentile, so quite a bit under their 50 percentile.

[Eos]

1 hour ago, GoodGrief3 said:

Test optional is such a tricky situation. My applicant last year had scores that were good, not great, and it was tough trying to figure out what the best strategy would be for her.

I tend to think that for unhooked applicants (and probably homeschoolers), submitting test scores does matter, If you are not submitting test scores, particularly to a very selective school, the rest of the package needs to be exceptionally strong.

There was one school last year where I do think submitting test scores possibly hurt my daughter, based on online anecdotes by a large number of applicants.

If your daughter is not a STEM major, the high reading score might help her.

I've considered this too, and she's not a STEM kid, but she got a 5 in AP Lit so I'm thinking that will help without the lower math score to hinder.

[Roadrunner]

I keep pondering this. Another way to look at it; I would assume that if kids are applying test optional, their scores are either in the lower end of the range or completely out of range. I would think colleges make similar assumptions because tests are now happening for anybody willing to take them (mostly). Unlike during the pandemic when they were physically not available in many parts of the country.
So if those are assumptions, then maybe a 75 percentile score for their English range would actually help. Just mudding the waters here. 
If I were you, for a non stem kid, I would want to show off that English score. 

[bibiche]

Same. 

[GoodGrief3]

On 9/15/2022 at 3:22 PM, Malam said:

Which one? What sort of anecdotes?

Penn State. It did appear that many applicants with similar qualifications to my daughter (4.0+ GPA, AP classes, leadership, etc) who did not submit test scores were being admitted to the main campus. My daughter was admitted, but was being required to enroll at one of the satellite campuses for two years. There were others like my daughter, who submitted scores and found themselves with similar offers (satellite campus or summer start). These were anecdotes, so who knows in the big picture whether submitting scores mattered or not.  But it was the one school (out of many she applied to), where it seemed test score submission *might* have negatively impacted her.