Teaching 2nd Grader Phonics, Spelling, Grammar Simultaneously?

[Ariane]

Hi there,

New homeschooling mom here. I have read the Well-Trained Mind book and we've begun our journey, but I recently came across something in one of the books referenced by the authors: you shouldn't teach children phonics, spelling, and grammar at the same time. 

My 2nd grader does read, but not well and not fluently. His public school did not teach phonics, so we are backtracking it to make sure all bases are covered. Is it really a no-no that I don't continue with his spelling and grammar lessons until we've finished a phonics program? 

Would love anyone's thoughts and insights into this. My son also was recently diagnosed with ADHD, so he naturally goes at a slower pace. I'd hate to stop working in other areas while we play catchup in another.

Thanks, veterans!

[wendyroo]

With a second grader who is not a strong reader, I would absolutely prioritize reading over spelling and grammar.

I think grammar is unnecessary icing on the cake for second graders under the best of circumstances, and I would devote no serious time to it in your shoes.

And spelling...well, I'm not even sure how I would teach encoding (spelling) to a child who can't yet fluently decode (read). Encoding English will always be much harder than decoding, because while we can read the word "rain" with 100% certainty just based on the phonetical sounds of the letters, there is no way to know for sure based on its sound if it should be spelled "rain" or "rane" (or "reign", or various other options). I think the best spelling instruction for beginning readers is simply more time spent reading and internalizing how words look properly spelled.

In your shoes, my language arts instruction for your second grader would include phonics, handwriting (if necessary), listening to novels/poetry that are above reading level (read aloud or audiobooks), and learning to write strong sentences including very basic grammar (learning a handful of parts of speech over the year) and mechanics (simple punctuation and capitalization)...and I would not let spelling stand in the way of writing sentences, so I would support their composition by taking dictation or letting them use Talk to Text.

[EKS]

I agree with wendyroo.  With my dyslexic son (who I didn't know was dyslexic at the time), I focused exclusively on reading for two years (2nd and 3rd grade).  We added a bit of spelling in 3rd grade, but not much, more in 4th grade.   Finally in 5th grade we added grammar.

Fast forward to college--his major was robotics engineering, but he also got something similar to a minor in writing, which is incredible given how things started.

Edited August 13, 2022 by EKS

[Ariane]

Wow, these are insightful responses. And thank you, because I forgot to throw handwriting in the mix. We are waiting for Handwriting Without Tears to arrive in the mail because his handwriting also needs help. 

It's hard to sleep at night now that I realize his school was not providing him with basic tools to develop. 

Again, thank you so much for the guidance!

[ScoutTN]

Agree. Get reading solid and adjust to homeschooling before you add spelling. Choose phonics based spelling when you get to that point. Wait a year at least on grammar too. 
 

Read alouds, including lots of poetry. Penmanship, including copywork. Narration! 

[HomeAgain]

So....two schools of thought.  I don't think spelling through phonics is a bad thing.  There are many good, solid programs that work on that together: Sing, Spell, Read, & Write / Reading & Spelling Through Literature / Spell to Write and Read....

The thing is, the skill is integrated into the same rules, same sounds that the phonics portion is working on.  It's much more difficult to do them separately with separate programs.  If you are choosing individual programs, phonics is the best to start with.

As far as grammar, I like play-based grammar in the beginning.  I was just musing through the idea of "oral punctuation" and thought it was very interesting.  I thought it absolutely could be worked into something like dictation practice as one of the steps to teach writing.  My own kid played with Montessori symbols I turned into characters for parts-of-speech, but I think oral punctuation could have been a benefit to him.

[Ariane]

Thank you to all who chimed in on this issue. This has been very helpful and we will be incorporating some of these ideas. You guys rock!

[Ellie]

Grammar can wait, certainly.

There are a number of methods which teach children to read by teaching them to spell: Spalding, Logic of English, and the Phonics Road to Spelllng and Reading, and several others. Those are very effective. But if you are using something else for phonics that teaches *just phonics*, then I would wait to do spelling as a separate "subject" until your ds is reading fluently.

[ElizabethB]

I would prioritize phonics.

I have free remedial lessons that teach phonics to a 12th grade level, they are specifically designed for older students who got taught balanced literacy in school. The nonsense words help stop the guessing habits.  I would do daily nonsense words and read all assignments until guessing stops. You can do nonsense words with the lists, a minute a day, or my game, takes longer with the game, 10 minutes a day, but more fun.

http://thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

Game:

http://thephonicspage.org/On Phonics/concentrationgam.html

I've had K and 1st grade students work through the lessons, the younger students just need a bit more help with the last several lessons, not a problem if you're doing it one on one, and by 2nd grade should be fine although beginning of year 2nd grader will likely need extra help when you get to 3+ syllable words. Work on one syllable at a time, then on putting it all together.

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by ElizabethB

[ElizabethB]

I've been a volunteer literacy tutor for 28 years, by my 3rd remedial student I'd decided to homeschool at least the early years to teach reading--and I didn't even have children yet and at the time hardly anyone homeschooled!!

Don't beat yourself up, they way they teach masks the problems, there are a lot of parents who don't realize their children are behind until much later. 2nd grade is way early, easy to fix at that point. My older remedial students need a lot more time to overcome years of guessing habits.

I personally like Spelling Plus when you add in spelling, it's what I used for ease of use, and I know all the spelling rules after years of teaching phonics!! Any good phonics based spelling program will work, though.

Spelling Plus:

https://www.amazon.com/Spelling-Plus-Words-toward-Success/dp/187947820X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=68MR94OJAW93&keywords=spelling+plus&qid=1660677256&sprefix=spelling+plus%2Caps%2C141&sr=8-1

She has extra dictation sentences from literature and from the Bible on her website.

https://www.susancanthony.com/res/dictlit/-dictlit.html

I like that it's one small book for K-6 spelling. It also focuses on the most common 1,000 words, which are 90% of any running text.

Edited August 16, 2022 by ElizabethB

[kbutton]

On 8/13/2022 at 10:12 AM, HomeAgain said:

So....two schools of thought.  I don't think spelling through phonics is a bad thing.  There are many good, solid programs that work on that together: Sing, Spell, Read, & Write / Reading & Spelling Through Literature / Spell to Write and Read....

The thing is, the skill is integrated into the same rules, same sounds that the phonics portion is working on.  It's much more difficult to do them separately with separate programs.  If you are choosing individual programs, phonics is the best to start with.

I agree. 

Generally, even if you use a curriculum that integrates some of these things, your spelling is going to be easier than your reading, but it will be compatible. Your handwriting can be copywork that might reinforce the reading and the spelling. 

I had a child with hypermobile hands that couldn't do traditional writing curriculum, and I had to break things down really small for him. It worked really well to have him do his handwriting as phonics copywork. We focused on correct formation first, then neatness. He really needed to get the motor patterns down before being precise about them. 

[Ellie]

On 8/13/2022 at 9:12 AM, HomeAgain said:

So....two schools of thought.  I don't think spelling through phonics is a bad thing.  There are many good, solid programs that work on that together: Sing, Spell, Read, & Write / Reading & Spelling Through Literature / Spell to Write and Read....

The thing is, the skill is integrated into the same rules, same sounds that the phonics portion is working on.  It's much more difficult to do them separately with separate programs.  If you are choosing individual programs, phonics is the best to start with..

See, I don't think of methods like Spalding as being "spelling through phonics." Phonics and spelling are two different things. And it definitely isn't the same rules. Phonics doesn't actually have rules. Phonics tells you, for example, that "dge" has one sound (/j/); spelling tells you when to use it (after a single vowel that doesn't say its name); that isn't a rule. Phonics tells you that "ai" says /A/; spelling tells you not to use it at the end of a word (because English words don't end with i or u), and that's a rule.

[PeterPan]

On 8/12/2022 at 8:35 PM, Ariane said:

My son also was recently diagnosed with ADHD, so he naturally goes at a slower pace.

My dd had ADHD and didn't begin meds till high school, so we spent a lot of years compensating that! It's always fine to do shorter sets or to do 3 out of the 10 exercises. It's fine to do grammar orally instead of written. So if your program wants them tediously writing sentences for 30 minutes to complete the exercises, you could streamline that to 3 sentences done orally, 5 minutes, boom done. 

And your test scores will be fine and the kid will still progress. 🙂 Be radical! What I had to do was the set a reasonable amount of time per day (grade plus one) and write out everything and be honest. If the total time was too high, chop, chop, chop. And remember that includes time for them to pleasure read!!! 

By trimming the amount you do and refusing to overload him, you will leave him with energy to do his own creative learning. You want him to have some boredom, and you don't want him fatigued. Cognitive fatigue from the low processing speed makes it hard to get through the week. So do less, be very measured, and refuse to over-book him. Turn things down, even good things, knowing you can do them later. We schooled year round. 

It would be natural to do some spelling using what you're working on in your reading instruction. You could dictate sentences (using the phonics skills you've taught) and have him read the sentences back, boom reading and spelling.

A lot of WTM's instructions assume a typically developing dc, very typical. So once you introduce quirks like ADHD, maybe some poor working memory, maybe low processing speed (which needs accommodations and causes fatigue), maybe some poor visual memory, etc., so you start to realize you are going to have to take what works for you and modify as needed. Maybe your student is BETTER doing them together to get him the amount of practice he's going to need. Maybe what WTM leaves to assumption/inference/natural development needs to happen more explicitly for your dc. It's ok to say you know him and make your judgment call on that. 🙂

Edited August 18, 2022 by PeterPan

[2_girls_mommy]

So I have always used Rod and Staff LA in 2nd grade.  It does have a separate reading, phonics, spelling, and English.  And we do something for handwriting, though I haven't used R&S handwriting in a long time.  I do them all in 2nd grade.  But I do not do them all simultaneously.  Therefore, we never actually finish all of the programs.  I never thought about it before.  But we do the English like 2-3 times a week, the handwriting a few times, spelling daily, and phonics pretty daily.   I have never worried that we don't finish a curric as written in a year.  Most of the English gets repeated, so we just get where we get.  Phonics, if we don't finish in a year, we keep moving forward in from where we are the next year, just picking up from the year before.  Spelling usually gets completed.  And handwriting just gets practiced with no specific goals of finishing any particular program. So I guess I agree in a sense- don't do it all at the same time. 

[ktgrok]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, EKS said:

I agree with wendyroo.  With my dyslexic son (who I didn't know was dyslexic at the time), I focused exclusively on reading for two years (2nd and 3rd grade).  We added a bit of spelling in 3rd grade, but not much, more in 4th grade.   Finally in 5th grade we added grammar.

Fast forward to college--his major was robotics engineering, but he also got something similar to a minor in writing, which is incredible given how things started.

Pretty much the same. 

Also, I encourage you to explore if there are not just phonics issues, but also phonemic awareness issues. Nessy.com has a pretty inexpensive FREE dyslexia screener to give you an idea maybe, I haven't used it though. They also have quite a bit of information about it on their website. https://www.nessy.com/en-us/dyslexia-explained

But it's something to check, because phonics won't stick until you have phonemic manipulation skills. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by ktgrok

[EKS]

Speaking of dyslexia screeners, here's one that was developed by Brock and Fernette Eide: https://neurolearning.com/

[Ariane]

Thank you all again for your invaluable insight. You guys have given me such encouragement and some other avenues to explore. I will also look into the dyslexia matter.