Children observing in OR

[gardenmom5]

This came up on a narcissism group to which I belong.
A woman found out her husband has been taking their *minor* (re: 8yo!) children into surgery to observe him preform orthopedic surgery.  (even allowing them to handle bones) Most of us have been horrified - but there are a couple who claim their exs are surgeons and it's not big deal. (again, leaving us horrified at this attitude.)  They claim the surgeons can have observers if they want - but that seems like it should be for *medical students* only!  (and certainly not children.)

But - there are also examples of surgeon 1 passing around PICTURES taken during surgery (and names and stories, and even admitting to not "installing hardware" so he can do surgery over and over) - at dinner parties.  and surgeon 2 (same medical school) - who says absolutely zilch about his patients (which seems like how it *should* be!)..

I'd like thoughts - especially those in the medical community.  Is this really that common?  It seems like a HIPPAA violation at a minimum.

 

Those of us horrified by this have suggested she contact the hospital admin, and the state medical board.

Edited June 8, 2022 by gardenmom5

[Jean in Newcastle]

You mean in the operating room?  I would be EXTREMELY SKEPTICAL of any claims of this kind.  I don't know of any practices / hospitals which would allow it for a whole host of reasons (keeping the environment sterile etc.) 

[TexasProud]

I have experience with this, especially since my husband is an orthopod. Ok, first of all, 8?? I cannot imagine the hospital allowing this unless it is a teeny, tiny hospital or maybe a small surgery center the surgeon himself owns.  My husband did have a tradition of taking each of our children with him their junior year: one clinic day and one OR day.  For surgery day, he had to fill out multiple pieces of paper for the hospital. I am sure one of them was a HIPPA form. They observed only. No way in the world would he allow them to participate in the actual surgery. For clinic day I am pretty sure he did something like, this is my son who is observing what dad does, would you mind if he stays? Exactly the way he would do with a med student or other shadow person that sometimes came from the high school as part of their shadow day program.  And our children and shadow people were told anything they heard/saw was private and should not be shared. Again, I think this was a form they filled out for permission. 

On the mission field he sometimes has late teens, med students, etc, even civilians observe in the operating room. First of all, standard practice is no one can do anything they would not be allowed to do in the states.  So again, absolutely no touching anything. In fact, we have a training afternoon for people who have not been in the operating room about things like: not coming in and out of the room, not crossing the sterile field, etc.  We do take pictures in the or, but the patients know we are doing this and have signed permission for us to do so.

I would be skeptical of some of the stories, and yes, they should be reported if there is any chance they are true. 

[DawnM]

5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

This came up on a narcissism group to which I belong.
A woman found out her husband has been taking their *minor* (re: 8yo!) children into surgery to observe him preform orthopedic surgery.  (even allowing them to handle bones) Most of us have been horrified - but there are a couple who claim their exs are surgeons and it's not big deal. (again, leaving us horrified at this attitude.)  They claim the surgeons can have observers if they want - but that seems like it should be for *medical students* only!  (and certainly not children.)

But - there are also examples of surgeon 1 passing around PICTURES taken during surgery (and names and stories, and even admitting to not "installing hardware" so he can do surgery over and over) - at dinner parties.  and surgeon 2 (same medical school) - who says absolutely zilch about his patients (which seems like how it *should* be!)..

I'd like thoughts - especially those in the medical community.  Is this really that common?  It seems like a HIPPAA violation at a minimum.

 

Those of us horrified by this have suggested she contact the hospital admin, and the state medical board.

I watched surgery from about age 2 or 3.   But I great up overseas and my father was a surgeon.  We didn't even have 24 hour electricity.   I can remember them perching me up on a table to hold the torch so that they could see to operate.  One of the things my dad loved to do is talk about every step he made during the surgery and why it was important to do X or Y during the procedure. 

I am not horrified by surgery, it is a tool to help people and the human body is fascinating.   

Laws have changed and the US has far more laws, but as a child, I loved watching my dad perform surgeries.

 

[Guest]

For some of the details, like handling bones, I would say it sounds like a bit of a tall tale. However, simply to permit children to observe a surgery I don’t think is wrong. Most squeamish adults (like myself) did not have adequate exposure to such things as young people, and it would have been handy to be less panicked by medical stuff throughout my life. 
 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

As a paramedic student, I had to spend five or six full days in the OR observing surgeries and doing live intubations.  Even though it was affiliated with the school I went to there were a bunch of hoops to jump through just to enter the OR. Paperwork, scrubs, orientation. 

Also scrub nurses are scary protective of their sterile field.  Unless it’s a super small hospital with one surgeon and one scrub nurse where life is a lot different, I seriously doubt this story. 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

I watched surgery from about age 2 or 3.   But I great up overseas and my father was a surgeon.  We didn't even have 24 hour electricity.   I can remember them perching me up on a table to hold the torch so that they could see to operate.  One of the things my dad loved to do is talk about every step he made during the surgery and why it was important to do X or Y during the procedure. 

I am not horrified by surgery, it is a tool to help people and the human body is fascinating.   

Laws have changed and the US has far more laws, but as a child, I loved watching my dad perform surgeries.

 

I am not horrified by surgery - I am horrified by young children in the operating room watching.  They could very easily become a distraction.  The patients privacy is being violated.

[wendyroo]

I just recently had a small surgery on my hand during which I was awake the whole time. I asked for and got permission from the surgeon to take a few photos during the procedure (awkward, left-handed, largely out of frame photos 😄). I mentioned that I was taking them for my kids because they wanted to see the inside of my hand. He said that during non-Covid times, when there were not visitor restrictions, that the kids could have come with me to watch the whole thing. If that had been the case, I could imagine taking an 8 year old that was as seriously passionate about medicine/anatomy as my 8 year old is about piano/music.

But, obviously, that is a different situation from a HIPAA perspective than a surgeon inviting a child.

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

As a paramedic student, I had to spend five or six full days in the OR observing surgeries and doing live intubations.  Even though it was affiliated with the school I went to there were a bunch of hoops to jump through just to enter the OR. Paperwork, scrubs, orientation. 

Also scrub nurses are scary protective of their sterile field.  Unless it’s a super small hospital with one surgeon and one scrub nurse where life is a lot different, I seriously doubt this story. 

her exhusband talks about it - all three of her children have talked about it.  there is another woman on this other forum who said her kids do the same thing.

[Farrar]

9 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

her exhusband talks about it - all three of her children have talked about it.  there is another woman on this other forum who said her kids do the same thing.

It's still all hearsay so I have a sense there must be more to this.

If I were the mom, I would definitely contact the hospital though. Like others, I'm less concerned about the kid seeing any of this and much more concerned about the privacy of patients and the liability involved.

[TexasProud]

27 minutes ago, Farrar said:

It's still all hearsay so I have a sense there must be more to this.

If I were the mom, I would definitely contact the hospital though. Like others, I'm less concerned about the kid seeing any of this and much more concerned about the privacy of patients and the liability involved.

Yes, this. My children saw TONS of gross surgery videos ( techniques on how to do things) over the years. They were not traumatized. 

[Dmmetler]

8 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

This came up on a narcissism group to which I belong.
A woman found out her husband has been taking their *minor* (re: 8yo!) children into surgery to observe him preform orthopedic surgery.  (even allowing them to handle bones) Most of us have been horrified - but there are a couple who claim their exs are surgeons and it's not big deal. (again, leaving us horrified at this attitude.)  They claim the surgeons can have observers if they want - but that seems like it should be for *medical students* only!  (and certainly not children.)

But - there are also examples of surgeon 1 passing around PICTURES taken during surgery (and names and stories, and even admitting to not "installing hardware" so he can do surgery over and over) - at dinner parties.  and surgeon 2 (same medical school) - who says absolutely zilch about his patients (which seems like how it *should* be!)..

I'd like thoughts - especially those in the medical community.  Is this really that common?  It seems like a HIPPAA violation at a minimum.

 

Those of us horrified by this have suggested she contact the hospital admin, and the state medical board.

I have a kid who has been in college classes since age 12, and has hit barriers at doing observation assignments several times due to not legally being able to sign confidentiality paperwork. Under 18 kids often are limited in hospitals as visitors, let alone observing surgeries. And COVID has made that even more limited. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

It's still all hearsay so I have a sense there must be more to this.

If I were the mom, I would definitely contact the hospital though. Like others, I'm less concerned about the kid seeing any of this and much more concerned about the privacy of patients and the liability involved.

Yes, the reason I am skeptical about children who were not ok’d by the patient to be there as well as specifically by the facility (which usually involves signing forms) is because I see a malpractice claim in making. 

[EKS]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I am horrified by young children in the operating room watching.

Are you sure they weren't viewing from an observation area?

[annandatje]

My gut reaction is to doubt the accuracy of the statements made. However, the advice to contact authorities is sound; they can ferret out the truth and decide how to handle.

Honestly, on another note, I would have been thrilled to get to observe surgery and handle bones when I was eight years old. 

[Lisa]

As an RN, that sounds crazy! Also, a total HIPAA violation! How would an 8yo or any kid be kept silent about medical issues? Again, HIPAA violation!!

[livetoread]

Surgeons used to have god-like power in operating rooms and the stories my surgeon father tells about the past make me shiver. Even now, there are rules and then there is the need for people to enforce those rules going up against someone who has total control in the operating room and who brings in large amounts of money to the hospital. I watched my father operate as a teen. I'm sure he would have brought me in as a kid if I had shown an interest. Read the fine print on many standard releases and they give the surgeon discretion to do quite a bit, including deciding who gets to assist. 

Just a couple of years ago, one of my then college aged relatives went on a mission trip with a surgeon. The surgeon allowed this relative to assist in surgery, including closing the wound. Who's going to stop him? 

I don't doubt the story that the kid watched the surgery. I don't know what handling bones means. A surgeon passing around pictures and telling stories doesn't surprise me. Naming names is way beyond the limit though in this day and age. Ten years ago I would have been irritated to hear a name but not surprised. It takes a certain amount of ego to do major surgery and while many surgeons are ethical, not all see themselves as beholden to silly things like patient rights. They are in charge, they know best, and don't question.

 

[livetoread]

Just to give further insight into the common mindset, did you know that up until a couple of years ago it was perfectly legal for medical students to practice pelvic exams on women under anesthesia without their consent? It still is in quite a few states. It's not your body, it's theirs when you are in the operating room.

[TexasProud]

1 hour ago, livetoread said:

Surgeons used to have god-like power in operating rooms and the stories my surgeon father tells about the past make me shiver. Even now, there are rules and then there is the need for people to enforce those rules going up against someone who has total control in the operating room and who brings in large amounts of money to the hospital. I watched my father operate as a teen. I'm sure he would have brought me in as a kid if I had shown an interest. Read the fine print on many standard releases and they give the surgeon discretion to do quite a bit, including deciding who gets to assist. 

Just a couple of years ago, one of my then college aged relatives went on a mission trip with a surgeon. The surgeon allowed this relative to assist in surgery, including closing the wound. Who's going to stop him? 

I don't doubt the story that the kid watched the surgery. I don't know what handling bones means. A surgeon passing around pictures and telling stories doesn't surprise me. Naming names is way beyond the limit though in this day and age. Ten years ago I would have been irritated to hear a name but not surprised. It takes a certain amount of ego to do major surgery and while many surgeons are ethical, not all see themselves as beholden to silly things like patient rights. They are in charge, they know best, and don't question.

 

I will say not all surgeons are like this BTW.  As far as the mission trip, who would stop him? The medical board would if someone reported him. Most legitimate medical missions stress the fact that you cannot let someone do something on a mission trip that they couldn't do in a US hospital.  Yes, some surgeons have god complexes. But not all. 

[livetoread]

11 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I will say not all surgeons are like this BTW.  As far as the mission trip, who would stop him? The medical board would if someone reported him. Most legitimate medical missions stress the fact that you cannot let someone do something on a mission trip that they couldn't do in a US hospital.  Yes, some surgeons have god complexes. But not all. 

True, which is why I said many surgeons are ethical. Given that this was being discussed in a chat room about narcissism, I think there's a pretty good chance they weren't talking about one of the good ones. I think there are fewer guard rails for unethical surgeons than we would like to think, especially in the more prestigious specialties.

[TexasProud]

11 minutes ago, livetoread said:

True, which is why I said many surgeons are ethical. Given that this was being discussed in a chat room about narcissism, I think there's a pretty good chance they weren't talking about one of the good ones. I think there are fewer guard rails for unethical surgeons than we would like to think, especially in the more prestigious specialties.

Good points.