How would you handle this?

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

Please don’t quote.
 

I have a situation with dd17 that I’m not quite sure how to handle. I’m curious what other parents would do. 
 

We were at an event tonight and my daughter was in a small group with some other teenagers. There was an adult leading the group. Another of the adult leaders needed to get by dd17 but instead of simply turning sideways and going by, he put a hand on her back and got quite close to her with his face close to hers as he moved by. I didn’t see this happen but the other adult leading the small group mentioned it to me afterwards. This other adult thought a line had been crossed and I agreed. They offered to go with me to speak to the person in charge of the event. We did that and the person in charge will speak to the man. 
 

How far do I push this? There’s a chance that this man may not know that this is no longer acceptable behavior. So possibly let the leader of the group take care of it and assume it won’t happen again? Or should we go further than that? 
 

Also, how do I discuss this with DD? I mentioned that someone noticed something that may have made her uncomfortable, but dd couldn’t think of anything. I don’t want to turn this into an issue for her if it wasn’t. This is an event we participate in regularly and I don’t want her to be uncomfortable going if she doesn’t need to be. But at the same time I’m wondering if maybe telling her exactly what the other adult witnesses would be better so that she can be aware. 
 

I plan to mention this to DH when he gets home from work tonight and get his take on it. And the head of the group and I will speak about it again tomorrow. For now, I’m trying to sort out my own thoughts and was wondering how others would handle this. 
 

Please don’t quote. I will delete later. 

[footballmom]

Does your DD interact with this adult regularly? I would wonder if this person has done the “infringe on personal space” thing often enough she no longer notices it.  This close contact doesn’t sound like something I would be comfortable with.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

1 minute ago, footballmom said:

Does your DD interact with this adult regularly? I would wonder if this person has done the “infringe on personal space” thing often enough she no longer notices it.  This close contact doesn’t sound like something I would be comfortable with.

Yes, she does. I guess that’s a possibility but don’t think anything else has happened. At least not to dd. This man doesn’t tend to be great at personal space. He always seems to stand just a bit too close to everyone. Some of us aren’t sure if he simply doesn’t understand the concept of personal space or if he simply doesn’t care. 

[Rosie_0801]

I'd mention that Dude seems to have personal space issue, ask if he bothered her, and remind her she is well within her rights to tell him to stay in his own lane and not be polite about it.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I'd mention that Dude seems to have personal space issue, ask if he bothered her, and remind her she is well within her rights to tell him to stay in his own lane and not be polite about it.

I like this way of handling it. Thank you. 

[HS Mom in NC]

I'd wait to see what comes of it before deciding on pressing further. I'm glad the other adult witnessed it, alerted you to it, and went with you to report it to the person in charge of the event. I'd want to know what was said to the offender by leadership, what the offender said in response, what consequences there will be, if any,  for the offender, and what will be done by leadership and the offender to avoid this problem in the future. I'd also want to know if this was the first complaint, and if not, what done last time and  what was the plan if it happened again.

I would mention to my daughter that that's a violation of personal space and to step away from someone if they it in the future. She didn't do anything wrong, but she does need to know it's not OK in our culture and she has the power to take her space back.

I'm someone with a big bubble, and my bubble is made of freaking steel, so I'm very aware of personal space and how offensive unwanted touch is to some, but I do know there are others who are clueless due to personality, being on the spectrum, and culture, so I think it's theoretically possible someone might just be oblivious, but I'm still suspicious. If someone truly cannot grasp personal space, they should never be in a leadership position and they shouldn't be around minors. It's just too much of a liability.

Edited March 1, 2022 by HS Mom in NC

[Clarita]

My mom's talk with me went like this:

XYZ tends to be touchy with people. It is not OK. If he does that to you tell him stop loudly and move away. You don't have to be mean; you don't have to be polite, but you absolutely have to be firm and clear.

I don't ask kids or adults to be polite when encountering situations like this. I've found saying stop politely doesn't work, even in the most innocent of situations, just gets absolutely ignored when it's not innocent. 

[gardenmom5]

You'll know more how to proceed based upon his response.  Does he seem genuinely unaware of how it could be received, and is apologetic?  or has a bit of a smirk and fails to see the "big deal"?

[katilac]

7 hours ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

 How far do I push this? There’s a chance that this man may not know that this is no longer acceptable behavior. So possibly let the leader of the group take care of it and assume it won’t happen again? Or should we go further than that? 

 

Further how? You didn't see it, dd wasn't bothered by it. You have already reported it, what else would you do? 

 

[Carrie12345]

6 hours ago, Clarita said:

My mom's talk with me went like this:

XYZ tends to be touchy with people. It is not OK. If he does that to you tell him stop loudly and move away. You don't have to be mean; you don't have to be polite, but you absolutely have to be firm and clear.

I don't ask kids or adults to be polite when encountering situations like this. I've found saying stop politely doesn't work, even in the most innocent of situations, just gets absolutely ignored when it's not innocent. 

This is my advice for when it happens.

It is not okay.
That said, it is an issue that MANY men have, and a whole lot of them don’t bother to understand that it’s an issue. Maybe not the close face thing but, OMG, the touch-to-get-by thing is CONSTANT. 
The more we call it out, the better off we all are.

[HomeAgain]

So, my goal would be to prevent it in the future.   It won't do much to address the past.  Our kids have grown up with very clear rules when it comes to imbalance of power and our expectations for each side, so that's what I would expect those running the event to adopt:

1. Never alone with a person who has more power than them.

2. Never allow touch (beyond handshake-style professional touches) by a person who has more power than them.

3. Always have a trusted 3rd party in the loop when it comes to private conversations.

4. Always keep interactions in a public area (or with a door open to the public area)

 

These are ideals I would expect any organization working with kids or teens to have if they wanted to have our children present.  For our kids, they know they are allowed to demand these things without repercussions.  They may be loud, they may be forceful, they may "tattle" to the rest of the group or organizers in order to secure these rights. We will have their back, and they know that.

Our oldest is 23, and he's on the other side of these rules now and knows exactly what is expected of him when it comes to him having more power in his relationships at his workplaces.  It has been drilled into him so much that he just knows how to approach situations now from a boss's point of view.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

35 minutes ago, katilac said:

Further how? You didn't see it, dd wasn't bothered by it. You have already reported it, what else would you do? 

 

I guess I wasn’t sure if I should insist that this man no longer work with the kids. Maybe it’s not time for that. He’s not my favorite person to begin with but not because of personal space issues. More a personality issue. But I’ve heard that this isn’t the first time this type of thing has happened with this man. 

DH and I decided that we’re not going to make a huge deal about this right now. We’re going to tell all three DD’s that they are to loudly and firmly tell this man to back up if he gets too close in the future. Or tell us later if they’re not comfortable with that. We’re also going to let the head of the group know that we are not, for the time being, comfortable with this man working with our DD’s. This is an activity that requires some level of physical contact and it’s completely normal for teens and adults to participate together (sorry to be so vague but that’s as much as I’m comfortable saying). But there are still lines for what is necessary and acceptable and what isn’t. We’ll let the head of the group handle the man however he sees fit, but let him know that we expect him to closely supervised. For now, we’ll see this as a learning opportunity for our DD’s and have some conversations about how and when to stand up for themselves when someone else is getting to familiar. Hopefully this man will also learn something about interacting with kids/young women. 

[catz]

I wouldn’t go overboard but I would take the opportunity to address with the 17 year old reminding them to be clear and loud with their boundaries and to keep interactions to personal space, etc.  

[kristin0713]

It is so hard to know whether to talk to him directly since you did not see it yourself *and* it didn't seem to phase your DD. I would want to know exactly how the "person in charge" will address this and maybe even be present when they do.  

26 minutes ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

But I’ve heard that this isn’t the first time this type of thing has happened with this man. 

So maybe this guy shouldn't be working with teenage girls. 

I would also want to make sure there are thorough policies set in place to protect the kids. The guidelines that @HomeAgain listed are great. Do they have a policy set up? 

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

5 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

It is so hard to know whether to talk to him directly since you did not see it yourself *and* it didn't seem to phase your DD. I would want to know exactly how the "person in charge" will address this and maybe even be present when they do.  

So maybe this guy shouldn't be working with teenage girls. 

I would also want to make sure there are thorough policies set in place to protect the kids. The guidelines that @HomeAgain listed are great. Do they have a policy set up? 

DH says if it happens again he WILL be speaking to people about it. And he won’t mince words. 
 

I’m not sure what policies are in place. That will be another good thing for me to ask about when I speak to the head of the group today. The activity takes place in one large, open room. Probably close to 50/50 teens and adults. So has always seemed pretty safe to me in that regard. 

[lmrich]

1 hour ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

I guess I wasn’t sure if I should insist that this man no longer work with the kids. Maybe it’s not time for that. He’s not my favorite person to begin with but not because of personal space issues. More a personality issue. But I’ve heard that this isn’t the first time this type of thing has happened with this man. 

 

I was going to say look for a pattern of the behavior. 

Also look at the apology - truly contrite and unware but can have empathy or defensive and blows it off. 

And please, don't ignore your instincts - I like to think of your instinct as wisdom. 

[Bambam]

Is it possible it was really noisy so it was necessary to get closer to speak so you could be heard without interrupting/calling attention to yourselves? 

The hand on the back sounds bizarre though.

Also, my kids had a friend who always stood closer to me than I like folks to be when we talked. I asked my kids about it, and they said he lost his glasses (his mom would not replace his glasses and he *really* needed them, this went on for several years) and so he stood closer to folks so he could see them.  That was a kid though, and he is probably funding his own glasses by now.