Does calculus count too much for admissions?

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Nerve touched. Having worked in/with public education for decades, there are challenges that I readily acknowledge. The near constant catastrophizing is grating.

But what we are seeing in many parts of the country is that public education is in crisis and that the wonderful districts such as yours are an exception rather than the rule.

At the public STEM uni in my state, we are seeing the incoming freshmen have weaker and weaker math skills; the decline over the past 20 years is noticeable. Barely half my incoming freshmen can place into calc 1 - something that was unheard of for physics majors twenty years ago. If we don't want to assume that students have become less intelligent, we must conclude that they are less well prepared. By their public highschools.

(Not that the public school education in the US was that impressive twenty years ago either.... why do you think so many of us opt to homeschool?

Edited February 16, 2022 by regentrude

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, regentrude said:

But what we are seeing in many parts of the country is that public education is in crisis and that the wonderful districts such as yours are an exception rather than the rule.

At the public STEM uni in my state, we are seeing the incoming freshmen have weaker and weaker math skills; the decline over the past 20 years is noticeable. Barely half my incoming freshmen can place into calc 1 - something that was unheard of for physics majors twenty years ago. If we don't want to assume that students have become less intelligent, we must conclude that they are less well prepared. By their public highschools.

(Not that the public school education in the US was that impressive twenty years ago either.... why do you think so many of us opt to homeschool?

To protect the precious from unpleasant ideas and content. No, really. 

I hear you. Truly. I see issues. I have deliberately slowed DD's progression through math to ensure her foundation is strong. She repeated trig to earn a solid A (on tests, not classwork and quizzes). We have prioritized math application classes to make sure problem-solving is more than a theoretical exercise. That is definitely pushing against the tide of more, more, more tho. You don't make change by buying into the narrative that these arbitrary metrics (AP course completion) matter. You do it by voting with your feet and not playing the game.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Lecka]

I think what is hard is that *I* feel like I am knowledgeable enough to see that some things just are not resulting in the level of math competence that I think an average student should reach.  
 

If I didn’t know, I would think everything must be okay.  
 

It is really sad.  

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

I think what is hard is that *I* feel like I am knowledgeable enough to see that some things just are not resulting in the level of math competence that I think an average student should reach.  
 

If I didn’t know, I would think everything must be okay.  
 

It is really sad.  

We have A LOT more control over this for our own kids than the handwringing would suggest tho. We do not have to push our kids into things just for the sake of transcripts a) because most schools aren’t competitive for admissions and b) even those that are would probably find it refreshing to have a student talk about their desire to ensure mastery and competence over resume padding.

[daijobu]

6 hours ago, regentrude said:

On one hand, they can google every little dumb thing, but when it comes to finding information that is clearly spelled out on the course website/Canvas or the university directory, they are too lazy and simply email the professor. I am wondering whether the continuous pressure on faculty to be available and responsive 24/7 hasn't conditioned students to expect us to do the work they can't bebothered to do themselves.

 

I'm curious whether this information is on paper or on screen?  

We are coming up on the MathCounts Chapter Competition (tomorrow!) and I've been receiving LONG emails from MathCounts HQ about all manner of rules and schedules and timing and everything.  I can't parse these long detailed emails unless I first print it out and get my red pen and start underlining and making notes to myself.  

I wonder if students these days aren't in the habit of printing out critical documents?  

Also, I've been in situations where information is scattered in emails, on drives, in random documents with undescriptive names.  (I'm looking at you, Math Kangaroo.)  Weeks later I'll need some information and I have no idea where to start.  So I email HQ and as them to resend.  

When I receive physical paper, I (again) underline in red pen important points, jot things in the margin, make a to do list, and THEN I will file in a hanging folder or punch into a 3 ring binder.  I didn't do that with the Math Kangaroo stuff, and now I'm ...in a bit of a bind.    My course syllabi was typically 1-2 pages long, hole punched and placed at the front of my binder.   I received a physical book that served as the university directory.  

I wonder if in our zeal to go paperless, we've lost a lot of information transmission?  

[daijobu]

6 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

That's similar to what I'm talking about here - huge numbers of kids are taking an AP class as freshmen...which seems like it has to imply that it's not truly a college equivalent class since it seems unlikely that 75% of freshmen at most high schools would be capable of college level work. 

...

It is fine for what it is, but it's unfortunate that students can graduate thinking 'Yay -I have AP - maybe I can finish college early' only to find that many of the credits don't actually help.  

No, these AP classes are pretty much NOT college level classes, IMO.  I believe all students should take these classes in order to graduate high school.   My kids did not take AP classes to finish college early.  They took them to show they took reasonably difficult high school classes, and have the EF skills to complete them.  

I've been  hearing a bit lately about free community college for underserved students.  It's tough because they are often working or have families and they don't have a lot of money for tuition.  Or time. 

When do underserved students have time?  When they are too young to work, elementary, middle, high school.  Why not use some of that time to actually study and learn these high school level classes.  They can graduate and perhaps get a meaningful job (since a high school diploma could actually mean something), without struggling to learn these basic skills while earning a living.    

[Arcadia]

5 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I'm curious whether this information is on paper or on screen?  

On Canvas, there is a link to Syllabus on the left hand panel that is usually above Modules or Grades. Some of my community college instructors set their first class quiz on the syllabus since students tend to skim and then ask questions that are already in the syllabus’s FAQ section.

[daijobu]

4 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

On Canvas, there is a link to Syllabus on the left hand panel that is usually above Modules or Grades. Some of my community college instructors set their first class quiz on the syllabus since students tend to skim and then ask questions that are already in the syllabus’s FAQ section.

See, my eyes glaze over when I see text blocks on screen.  There seems to be an inverse relationship between how critical information is and how well I can parse it on screen.  I use an online calendar, but really I make so many calendar data entry errors the advantages aren't so great.  

I just wonder if students aren't in the habit of printing things, or maybe they don't even have access to a printer?  

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

I think what is hard is that *I* feel like I am knowledgeable enough to see that some things just are not resulting in the level of math competence that I think an average student should reach.  
 

If I didn’t know, I would think everything must be okay.  
 

It is really sad.  

I was browsing WTM Academy courses. The middle school English course is 10x more rigorous than my son’s Honors English in high school. I can honestly say they have yet to read a single significant piece of literature or anything really that is beyond 5th grade reading level. Some exceptions are non fiction articles. 
It’s not just math. 

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, daijobu said:

No, these AP classes are pretty much NOT college level classes, IMO.  I believe all students should take these classes in order to graduate high school.   My kids did not take AP classes to finish college early.  They took them to show they took reasonably difficult high school classes, and have the EF skills to complete them.  

I've been  hearing a bit lately about free community college for underserved students.  It's tough because they are often working or have families and they don't have a lot of money for tuition.  Or time. 

When do underserved students have time?  When they are too young to work, elementary, middle, high school.  Why not use some of that time to actually study and learn these high school level classes.  They can graduate and perhaps get a meaningful job (since a high school diploma could actually mean something), without struggling to learn these basic skills while earning a living.    

Why should talented, poor, URM kids be immediately shuttled into work? Who gets to decide what they have the time/motivation to do? *they* should be given every opportunity to demonstrate their capacity for achievement.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Arcadia]

1 minute ago, daijobu said:

 

I just wonder if students aren't in the habit of printing things, or maybe they don't even have access to a printer?  

I know students at my nearby community colleges have access to printing services at the library and student service center. However the local public school students are already used to online textbooks, assignments and probably Canvas since their middle school days. So they probably don’t have a habit of printing anything since they can just check anytime on their phone/chromebooks/laptops.  Friends whose kids are high school seniors have been using school issued chromebooks or iPads since 5th grade.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

I think what is hard is that *I* feel like I am knowledgeable enough to see that some things just are not resulting in the level of math competence that I think an average student should reach.  
 

If I didn’t know, I would think everything must be okay.  
 

It is really sad.  

I wonder if the way my high school math teacher did it would help at all. I went to a small, rural high school so there was only one math teacher and no calculus, AP or otherwise (no honors or AP or IB or DE classes at all). I didn’t actually like him (we weren’t allowed to ask questions, he just randomly called on people), but he did actually teach every day, unlike some of my other teachers who just gave us worksheets or showed movies. We had HW assigned every day, but it was never collected or graded. Our entire grade was based on exam scores. And they were the exams that came with the book, my teacher did not write them.

It was the same way for my college math classes, except there the profs did write their own exams. I didn’t actually start having to hand in math HW and have it graded until I went to grad school.

Starting my sophomore year in high school, there was always at least one and usually more older students in my math class retaking a math class they had failed. When I took an algebra test my first day of college Calc (because the prof emphasized the importance of strong algebra background for success in calculus), he was genuinely shocked that I aced it. He said it was very rare in his experience. I like math and I’m pretty good at it, but in no way am I mathematically gifted and even in my small high school class of 60 there were several people better at math than me. So I really think part of my mastery of algebra had to do with all of our grades being based on exams.

From what I see and hear from my nieces and neighbor kids, HW counts for lots of their math grade. So it’s possible to have the HW grade compensate for very low exam scores enough that you can pass but lack mastery.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Frances

[daijobu]

34 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Why should talented, poor, URM kids be immediately shuttled into work? Who gets to decide what they have the time/motivation to do? *they* should be given every opportunity to demonstrate their capacity for achievement.

Exactly.  We should be using that precious time when they are under 16 to be studying.  Instead they are learning a sport or playing an instrument.  Even high school these poor students get jobs.  Why not use that time to learn those academic skills before life gets in the way?  

[Frances]

32 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I was browsing WTM Academy courses. The middle school English course is 10x more rigorous than my son’s Honors English in high school. I can honestly say they have yet to read a single significant piece of literature or anything really that is beyond 5th grade reading level. Some exceptions are non fiction articles. 
It’s not just math. 

We never read a single entire book in any of my high school English classes. There was an elective taught every other year where you read novels and wrote essays, similar to what is done in college. But the one year I was eligible to take it, it was taught at the same time as band, so I couldn’t. The majority of college bound students were in band, so it was a very small, good class for the few who could take it.

I only lasted one day in the other English elective, which was much more focused on writing poetry and personal essays and fiction. Fortunately, my extensive personal reading and a very well taught speech class prepared me well enough for freshman English at college. I got the only A in my section, despite having lots of classmates talking about their AP English classes (which was where I first heard the term AP).

[daijobu]

34 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I know students at my nearby community colleges have access to printing services at the library and student service center. However the local public school students are already used to online textbooks, assignments and probably Canvas since their middle school days. So they probably don’t have a habit of printing anything since they can just check anytime on their phone/chromebooks/laptops.  Friends whose kids are high school seniors have been using school issued chromebooks or iPads since 5th grade.

Paper used to be such an important tool in teaching, when my DH was TAing CS classes, he and the other TAs spent the bulk of their time just photocopying handouts.  A running joke was that his nickname was "Handout Boy."  As in, the lead instructor would call to DH in a sing-songy voice, "Oh Handout Boy!!!"  

[Frances]

37 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Why should talented, poor, URM kids be immediately shuttled into work? Who gets to decide what they have the time/motivation to do? *they* should be given every opportunity to demonstrate their capacity for achievement.

They shouldn’t be. They should be provided with a rigorous high school education that prepares them to go to college or pursue other career paths of their choice. She is lamenting the time we are wasting in these student’s lives, but subjecting them to four years of low level, poorly taught high school, often preceded by nine years of the same.

[Frances]

1 minute ago, daijobu said:

Paper used to be such an important tool in teaching, when my DH was TAing CS classes, he and the other TAs spent the bulk of their time just photocopying handouts.  A running joke was that his nickname was "Handout Boy."  As in, the lead instructor would call to DH in a sing-songy voice, "Oh Handout Boy!!!"  

I far prefer to work with paper also, especially when I’m proofreading anything. 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

I just wonder if students aren't in the habit of printing things, or maybe they don't even have access to a printer?  

all our students have access to printers in the computer labs and the library

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

I'm curious whether this information is on paper or on screen?  

I wonder if students these days aren't in the habit of printing out critical documents?   

It wasn't any better when we still handed out paper syllabi - they didn't read those back then either.

[Sneezyone]

7 hours ago, daijobu said:

Exactly.  We should be using that precious time when they are under 16 to be studying.  Instead they are learning a sport or playing an instrument.  Even high school these poor students get jobs.  Why not use that time to learn those academic skills before life gets in the way?  

To help feed and care for their families? Life is already in the way. Work and musical study isn’t incompatible with education. It is education too.

[MamaSprout]

So... I'm teaching two sections of a literature class to future teachers this year. Sigh. These are not disadvantaged students. They all have to have a 3.0 to be in the program. I assigned them to read a children's novel Graveyard Book. In a class of around twenty, five read it. You can't have a book discussion with 4 people who read the book (one listened to half). I have my other section today. I'm not holding my breath. I just answered an email to a student who "doesn't understand" the assignment to create an activity around a literary element in Graveyard Book. Well... you need to read the article about literary elements and the book, first. 

I'm not at all surprised students go into college unprepared if 75% of their teachers didn't care to do the homework.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

16 hours ago, Clarita said:

I think the problem with that is an engineering degree often requires 190-200+ units to graduate based on the classes they have to take. Potentially you will need some calculus for your intro courses especially if you are going into a physics heavy engineering major (or at least I can only speak to physics heavy engineering major). 

I'm not downplaying the need for calculus in engineering programs. 

I do question math pathways where students have to accelerate or double accelerate to take calculus in high school, because without that course they are unlikely to succeed in calc 1 in college. Many engineering programs are direct admission. A student who hasn't already demonstrated calculus proficiency in high school has fewer college where they can even attempt an engineering major. 

There are lots of reasons why a middle school student might not be ready to accelerate math. There should be additional on ramps over later years. 

This is an article about engineering education in the US. It touches on the role of calculus as a gatekeeper course. https://issues.org/engineering-education-change-sorby-fortenberry-bertoline/

[Sneezyone]

3 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

So... I'm teaching two sections of a literature class to future teachers this year. Sigh. These are not disadvantaged students. They all have to have a 3.0 to be in the program. I assigned them to read a children's novel Graveyard Book. In a class of around twenty, five read it. You can't have a book discussion with 4 people who read the book (one listened to half). I have my other section today. I'm not holding my breath. I just answered an email to a student who "doesn't understand" the assignment to create an activity around a literary element in Graveyard Book. Well... you need to read the article about literary elements and the book, first. 

I'm not at all surprised students go into college unprepared if 75% of their teachers didn't care to do the homework.

Standards for education programs are basically take all comers b/c no one wants to teach under current conditions. Our brightest people have zero incentives to teach K-12–no respect, crappy pay, shrinking benefit packages, constant second-guessing.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sneezyone

[MamaSprout]

28 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Standards for education programs are basically take all comers b/c no one wants to teach under current conditions. Our brightest people have zero incentives to teach K-12–no respect, crappy pay, shrinking benefit packages, constant second-guessing.

Not here. You have to have a 3.0 and a specific (not easy) score on the PRAXIS to be in an undergraduate teaching program. So these students are not just anyone who needs an easy undergraduate to play sports (that's GE or "Sport and Recreation" at my university). There are definitely transition to teacher programs for after the bachelors. That's what the ones who can't make the PRAXIS score or GPA usually do.

Edited February 17, 2022 by MamaSprout
I'm a doofus. Mixed up my acronymn test names.

[Sneezyone]

18 minutes ago, MamaSprout said:

Not here. You have to have a 3.0 and a specific (not easy) score on the PRAXIS to be in an undergraduate teaching program. So these students are not just anyone who needs an easy undergraduate to play sports (that's GE or "Sport and Recreation" at my university). There are definitely transition to teacher programs for after the bachelors. That's what the ones who can't make the PRAXIS score or GPA usually do.

One school doesn’t change the national picture. Honestly, the Praxis is a cake walk and a very low standard. I’d been out of college four years when I took it cold without issue. It’s not challenging. DH has a cousin, wife is a teacher, who chose a secondary career in elementary education after flunking out of the Navy as a ‘religious person’. That was his job. He’s still teaching elementary kids. He’s also an adulterous idiot and I can’t believe he’s in front of kids everyday. I don’t think education should be an undergrad major AT ALL. Major in something meaningful and add instruction/pedagogy classes. It used to be that URMs who were locked out of other careers became teachers. Many of mine were amazing. I have sleuthed to make sure DD gets some of these older, seasoned teachers. Some Ed programs tho, both conventional and career change, are just…I don’t even know. The quality is so variable.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sneezyone

[daijobu]

3 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

I do question math pathways where students have to accelerate or double accelerate to take calculus in high school, because without that course they are unlikely to succeed in calc 1 in college. Many engineering programs are direct admission. A student who hasn't already demonstrated calculus proficiency in high school has fewer college where they can even attempt an engineering major. 

There are lots of reasons why a middle school student might not be ready to accelerate math. There should be additional on ramps over later years. 

 

I question whether taking calculus in your senior year is really "accelerated" or if we aren't just underestimating generations of students.  Again, I argue we should be "front-loading" our education, making students work a fair bit in their 13 years before graduation.

Sure, keep music and sports, but not at the expense of learning virtually nothing in K-12.  Otherwise, you have kids who become proficient baseball players, and then need to spend their young adulthood going to CC to get their education.  Why not reverse this sequence?  Education first, piano lessons later.    

[Sneezyone]

28 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I question whether taking calculus in your senior year is really "accelerated" or if we aren't just underestimating generations of students.  Again, I argue we should be "front-loading" our education, making students work a fair bit in their 13 years before graduation.

Sure, keep music and sports, but not at the expense of learning virtually nothing in K-12.  Otherwise, you have kids who become proficient baseball players, and then need to spend their young adulthood going to CC to get their education.  Why not reverse this sequence?  Education first, piano lessons later.    

Yes, taking rigorous calculus in senior year is accelerated. The population of this forum is skewed toward those who see that as some sort of minimum. It's not. In DH's poor, rural school he received robust instruction in math through pre-cal/college algebra--so robust that he held his own in the Navy's nuclear training pipeline with people who did take calc. I would love to see a deemphasis on "AP Calculus AB/BC", the course, versus prerequisite mathematic principles/mastery. That would totally freak out clout chasers tho and send another wave of moms/dads to school board meetings to complain.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Roadrunner]

15 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I question whether taking calculus in your senior year is really "accelerated" or if we aren't just underestimating generations of students.  Again, I argue we should be "front-loading" our education, making students work a fair bit in their 13 years before graduation.

Sure, keep music and sports, but not at the expense of learning virtually nothing in K-12.  Otherwise, you have kids who become proficient baseball players, and then need to spend their young adulthood going to CC to get their education.  Why not reverse this sequence?  Education first, piano lessons later.    

Middle school seems to be a particular waste of time from academic perspective. And yes, Calculus as a senior isn’t considered accelerated in much of the world. However we seem to have problems with getting well qualified math teachers at school, so maybe that’s the reason so many high schools simply don’t offer it.
I am not sure if one needs to be a math major in undergraduate to teach math in high school, but if so, there is no excuse for the weakness in the system. And I don’t understand why the transition isn’t smoother from precalculus to calculus for kids. Why so many feel it’s a massive jump in difficulty? It’s just the next thing after.  
 

I disagree with you on music and art. It’s valuable. It’s what makes us human. Not all of us need to practice daily, but it’s important to expose kids to some of the greatest achievements of human civilization through classical music and art and great literature.
And some of those music kids might just choose to practice several hours a day. We need all kinds in society. And there is plenty of time for electives built into the system to accommodate interests and not sacrifice basics like math and English. 
 

 

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Middle school seems to be a particular waste of time from academic perspective. And yes, Calculus as a senior isn’t considered accelerated in much of the world. However we seem to have problems with getting well qualified math teachers at school, so maybe that’s the reason so many high schools simply don’t offer it.
I am not sure if one needs to be a math major in undergraduate to teach math in high school, but if so, there is no excuse for the weakness in the system. And I don’t understand why the transition isn’t smoother from precalculus to calculus for kids. Why so many feel it’s a massive jump in difficulty? It’s just the next thing after.  
 

I disagree with you on music and art. It’s valuable. It’s what makes us human. Not all of us need to practice daily, but it’s important to expose kids to some of the greatest achievements of human civilization through classical music and art and great literature.
And some of those music kids might just choose to practice several hours a day. We need all kinds in society. And there is plenty of time for electives built into the system to accommodate interests and not sacrifice basics like math and English. 
 

 

Most of the rest of the world doesn't educate all of its students to that level and certainly not through compulsory education. Those who can't pay or hack it are shuttled onto other paths. Most elementary teachers are not math specialists. Math isn't expected as anything other than a minor (at most) for teachers through middle school. Secondary educators should have at least a minor. I'd like to see it be a major. I do agree with you on music and art tho.

ETA: I'm including links to these articles b/c these are precisely the sort of reforms that our new Gov. just killed. Why? B/c Kens and Karens couldn't be bothered to investigate the issue and research-based solutions. The loss/change of course titles sent them over the edge.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2020/02/28/math-scores-high-school-lessons-freakonomics-pisa-algebra-geometry/4835742002/

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2021/02/04/after-30-years-of-reforms-to-improve-math-instruction-reasons-for-hope-and-dismay/

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sneezyone

[MamaSprout]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

One school doesn’t change the national picture. Honestly, the Praxis is a cake walk and a very low standard. I’d been out of college four years when I took it cold without issue. It’s not challenging. DH has a cousin, wife is a teacher, who chose a secondary career in elementary education after flunking out of the Navy as a ‘religious person’. That was his job. He’s still teaching elementary kids. He’s also an adulterous idiot and I can’t believe he’s in front of kids everyday. I don’t think education should be an undergrad major AT ALL. Major in something meaningful and add instruction/pedagogy classes. It used to be that URMs who were locked out of other careers became teachers. Many of mine were amazing. I have sleuthed to make sure DD gets some of these older, seasoned teachers. Some Ed programs tho, both conventional and career change, are just…I don’t even know. The quality is so variable.

It's my state.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, MamaSprout said:

It's my state.

and? Nationally, teacher education programs have some of the lowest admissions standards and inconsistent outputs of any 'professional' degree. It's a total crap shoot.

[MamaSprout]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

and? Nationally, teacher education programs have some of the lowest admissions standards and inconsistent outputs of any 'professional' degree. It's a total crap shoot.

You are very combative. Yikes.

You completely miss my point. These are students who at least want to be there, and they still don't see the need to do the work.

 

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, MamaSprout said:

You are very combative. Yikes.

You completely miss my point. These are students who at least want to be there, and they still don't see the need to do the work.

 

Not combative, direct. I know that's not a preferred quality in educators. *rolling eyes*. They can want to be there and still be ill-equipped for the tasks and the role given the low standards required for entry to the profession. Ed programs that demand more will get more. I don't support mollycoddling kids anymore than I support mollycoddling adult learners.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sneezyone

[kokotg]

53 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I question whether taking calculus in your senior year is really "accelerated" or if we aren't just underestimating generations of students.  Again, I argue we should be "front-loading" our education, making students work a fair bit in their 13 years before graduation.

Sure, keep music and sports, but not at the expense of learning virtually nothing in K-12.  Otherwise, you have kids who become proficient baseball players, and then need to spend their young adulthood going to CC to get their education.  Why not reverse this sequence?  Education first, piano lessons later.    

At least in the US, from what I can tell, teaching calculus in high school was pretty much unheard of until the 50s/60s. I don't see any trend at all to teach it to fewer students right now, but to push more and more unprepared students into it. 

I also don't see that anyone is substituting music and sports for academic subjects; it's the same wealthy schools that offer a bunch of AP classes that have robust music programs and lots of money for sports. I know that around here the schools in poorer areas can't play football games on Friday nights because they can't afford lights for their fields. My kids just auditioned into district honor band in our county where there are huge socio-economic variations across the county, and just about every single kid who got into district came from the wealthier, whiter/more Asian half of the county where there are schools with strong music programs and parents who can afford private lessons. The kids getting the best shots at succeeding in sports and music are the same ones getting the best shots academically. 

[Roadrunner]

29 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Most of the rest of the world doesn't educate all of its students to that level and certainly not through compulsory education. Those who can't pay or hack it are shuttled onto other paths. Most elementary teachers are not math specialists. Math isn't expected as anything other than a minor (at most) for teachers through middle school. Secondary educators should have at least a minor. I'd like to see it be a major. I do agree with you on music and art tho.

ETA: I'm including links to these articles b/c these are precisely the sort of reforms that our new Gov. just killed. Why? B/c Kens and Karens couldn't be bothered to investigate the issue and research-based solutions. The loss/change of course titles sent them over the edge.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2020/02/28/math-scores-high-school-lessons-freakonomics-pisa-algebra-geometry/4835742002/

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2021/02/04/after-30-years-of-reforms-to-improve-math-instruction-reasons-for-hope-and-dismay/

I think you and I really need to stop having the back and forth. I have never met a person I disagreed on virtually everything.  Let’s just leave it at that. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I think you and I really need to stop having the back and forth. I have never met a person I disagreed on virtually everything.  Let’s just leave it at that. 

We do disagree and *we* are not having a back and forth. I do not see you regularly include include links, research, or anything other than personal anecdotes in your posts. Basically...it's all about *your* opinion. That's cool...you do you...but it's misleading for casual readers and I don't think that's right. Ignore works both ways.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Frances]

54 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Most of the rest of the world doesn't educate all of its students to that level and certainly not through compulsory education. Those who can't pay or hack it are shuttled onto other paths. Most elementary teachers are not math specialists. Math isn't expected as anything other than a minor (at most) for teachers through middle school. Secondary educators should have at least a minor. I'd like to see it be a major. I do agree with you on music and art tho.

I taught and TAd statistics classes for many years and am following the journey of my niece who wants to be a high school math teacher. She is a Phi Beta Kappa grad of a top 25 LAC and majored in biology and minored in math. She was not interested in using her limited elective to take education courses, she preferred sociology, Spanish, etc. However, for four years her work study job was tutoring math at a local private high school and she was also a live-in academic advisor and an RA during her college years.

She was the type of student who very likely would have been chosen for a program like Teach for America had she applied, but she thinks math education is too important to be left to inexperienced teachers ( and I know TFA allows inexperienced math teachers, such as an international relations major whose only college math class was College Algebra and spent three years as a TFA teacher at a middle school on a Native American Reservation).

Instead, she’s been teaching English in Japan for several years and has already identified and been in contact with her target MA program at U of WI. She is currently starting the process of taking the last few upper level math classes needed for admission to the program, before she moves back to the US.

But based on both my experiences and hers, I disagree that having a math major will necessarily make a better math teacher. Yes, a minor at least. But in my experience going through grad school for Statistics and TAing multiple times for intro courses, the most helpful thing for both of us was repeatedly being exposed to the same material, but at higher levels, and working with others to deepen our understanding. What didn’t help was taking high level courses in unrelated areas.

So for example, I took three different level of calculus based statistics and probability between undergrad and grad school. Each time my understanding of concepts deepened and grew. Every time I TAd intro statistics, I deepened my understanding of concepts. At least once and usually more times during each semester, I would have an ahah moment where I suddenly had new insight into a basic statistics concept I previously thought I completely understood.

So rather than requiring a math major for teachers, I would rather see a math minor requirement (including for elementary math teachers), but for the math education portion of the degree (whether BA or MA), extensive coursework and experience going deeper and higher into the material of the math classes they will actually be teaching. And all done in a very collaborative environment where they are both students and sometimes teachers of their fellow students.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

I taught and TAd statistics classes for many years and am following the journey of my niece who wants to be a high school math teacher. She is a Phi Beta Kappa grad of a top 25 LAC and majored in biology and minored in math. She was not interested in using her limited elective to take education courses, she preferred sociology, Spanish, etc. However, for four years her work study job was tutoring math at a local private high school and she was also a live-in academic advisor and an RA during her college years.

She was the type of student who very likely would have been chosen for a program like Teach for America had she applied, but she thinks math education is too important to be left to inexperienced teachers ( and I know TFA allows inexperienced math teachers, such as an international relations major whose only college math class was College Algebra and spent three years as a TFA teacher at a middle school on a Native American Reservation).

Instead, she’s been teaching English in Japan for several years and has already identified and been in contact with her target MA program at U of WI. She is currently starting the process of taking the last few upper level math classes needed for admission to the program, before she moves back to the US.

But based on both my experiences and hers, I disagree that having a math major will necessarily make a better math teacher. Yes, a minor at least. But in my experience going through grad school for Statistics and TAing multiple times for intro courses, the most helpful thing for both of us was repeatedly being exposed to the same material, but at higher levels, and working with others to deepen our understanding. What didn’t help was taking high level courses in unrelated areas.

So for example, I took three different level of calculus based statistics and probability between undergrad and grad school. Each time my understanding of concepts deepened and grew. Every time I TAd intro statistics, I deepened my understanding of concepts. At least once and usually more times during each semester, I would have an ahah moment where I suddenly had new insight into a basic statistics concept I previously thought I completely understood.

So rather than requiring a math major for teachers, I would rather see a math minor requirement (including for elementary math teachers), but for the math education portion of the degree (whether BA or MA), extensive coursework and experience going deeper and higher into the material of the math classes they will actually be teaching. And all done in a very collaborative environment where they are both students and sometimes teachers of their fellow students.

I could totally be on board with that. What we have now is students who are math phobic being certified to teach foundational math courses.

[Arcadia]

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

So rather than requiring a math major for teachers, I would rather see a math minor requirement (including for elementary math teachers), but for the math education portion of the degree (whether BA or MA), extensive coursework and experience going deeper and higher into the material of the math classes they will actually be teaching.

DS17 was in public school for K-4th. His 1st grade teacher was not only math phobic, she was also science phobic. During parent teacher meeting, she just discussed English and behavior. Kids in that school gets a dedicated science teacher from 4th grade onwards but math teachers from 6th grade onwards. Parents who can after school would after school be it doing it themselves or sending kids to Kumon, Mathnasium, Russian School of Maths. Math tracking starts at 7th grade with the fastest track taking algebra 1. 
So the problem really does start in elementary school. Kids need teachers who are not math phobic. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

DS17 was in public school for K-4th. His 1st grade teacher was not only math phobic, she was also science phobic. During parent teacher meeting, she just discussed English and behavior. Kids in that school gets a dedicated science teacher from 4th grade onwards but math teachers from 6th grade onwards. Parents who can after school would after school be it doing it themselves or sending kids to Kumon, Mathnasium, Russian School of Maths. Math tracking starts at 7th grade with the fastest track taking algebra 1. 
So the problem really does start in elementary school. Kids need teachers who are not math phobic. 

It's hard to attract students who are comfy with math and science in education programs b/c there is so little pay, respect and prestige attached  to the job. If there is anything that could be done quickly to improve the quality of teaching/learning in the pipeline, that would be it...but COVID. Sigh. In a booming job market, talented people aren't running to teach.

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

At least in the US, from what I can tell, teaching calculus in high school was pretty much unheard of until the 50s/60s. I don't see any trend at all to teach it to fewer students right now, but to push more and more unprepared students into it. 

I also don't see that anyone is substituting music and sports for academic subjects; it's the same wealthy schools that offer a bunch of AP classes that have robust music programs and lots of money for sports. I know that around here the schools in poorer areas can't play football games on Friday nights because they can't afford lights for their fields. My kids just auditioned into district honor band in our county where there are huge socio-economic variations across the county, and just about every single kid who got into district came from the wealthier, whiter/more Asian half of the county where there are schools with strong music programs and parents who can afford private lessons. The kids getting the best shots at succeeding in sports and music are the same ones getting the best shots academically. 

There was/is a push in CA to gut Calculus. 

https://reason.com/2021/05/04/california-math-framework-woke-equity-calculus/?amp
 

Every reform has promised improvement but so far hasn’t delivered. Just look back at Common Core debates. Nothing great came out of it. 

[Clarita]

4 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

This is an article about engineering education in the US. It touches on the role of calculus as a gatekeeper course. https://issues.org/engineering-education-change-sorby-fortenberry-bertoline/

In the article, they even state a way for one to pursue engineering without having been tracked into the correct math program in 7th grade. I mean the knowledge dump has to happen at some time and 4 yr universities don't want to have a significant amount of their students taking 6+ years to graduate with a BS from their school. 

In addition, my dad actually got into electrical engineering by being an apprentice then getting his bachelor's while he was working. One of my old colleagues did the same thing. They don't really have apprenticeships now but, in theory one could become a technician first then pursue a college education to become an engineer.  It's a lot of work and yes tracking yourself for it in 7th grade is a lot easier. It's not an impossible plan to becoming an engineer. 

Don't get me started on projects and exams being so hard. Yes it sucks when you are in college and your projects and exams are so hard. It's not character building but, when you get a job you realize your job is to solve problems. In real life there's no guarantee problems are solvable. So yea you need to learn how to fail and be OK.  

I do see the problem where advance math aren't available to every student as a problem. 

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, Clarita said:

In the article, they even state a way for one to pursue engineering without having been tracked into the correct math program in 7th grade. I mean the knowledge dump has to happen at some time and 4 yr universities don't want to have a significant amount of their students taking 6+ years to graduate with a BS from their school. 

In addition, my dad actually got into electrical engineering by being an apprentice then getting his bachelor's while he was working. One of my old colleagues did the same thing. They don't really have apprenticeships now but, in theory one could become a technician first then pursue a college education to become an engineer.  It's a lot of work and yes tracking yourself for it in 7th grade is a lot easier. It's not an impossible plan to becoming an engineer. 

Don't get me started on projects and exams being so hard. Yes it sucks when you are in college and your projects and exams are so hard. It's not character building but, when you get a job you realize your job is to solve problems. In real life there's no guarantee problems are solvable. So yea you need to learn how to fail and be OK.  

I do see the problem where advance math aren't available to every student as a problem. 

There is also a community college route. It’s cheaper for sure even if it still takes a long time. A typical engineering transfer at our CC spends 3 years there to get all the math and physics knocked out. Ours channels kids to SLO afterwards. So yes, you can get there in CA without having done calculus in high school by opting through a CC transfer. And these kids get extra attention given the tiny class sizes and all the office hours/tutoring centers…. It takes hard work for sure. 

[Sneezyone]

36 minutes ago, Clarita said:

In the article, they even state a way for one to pursue engineering without having been tracked into the correct math program in 7th grade. I mean the knowledge dump has to happen at some time and 4 yr universities don't want to have a significant amount of their students taking 6+ years to graduate with a BS from their school. 

In addition, my dad actually got into electrical engineering by being an apprentice then getting his bachelor's while he was working. One of my old colleagues did the same thing. They don't really have apprenticeships now but, in theory one could become a technician first then pursue a college education to become an engineer.  It's a lot of work and yes tracking yourself for it in 7th grade is a lot easier. It's not an impossible plan to becoming an engineer. 

Don't get me started on projects and exams being so hard. Yes it sucks when you are in college and your projects and exams are so hard. It's not character building but, when you get a job you realize your job is to solve problems. In real life there's no guarantee problems are solvable. So yea you need to learn how to fail and be OK.  

I do see the problem where advance math aren't available to every student as a problem. 

We don't need tracks. We need robust, comprehensive, math education K-12. You shouldn't have to work as a technician for 2-4 years if that's not your ministry. In the absence of that, PARENTS need to ensure their kids know the material and not push them forward when they're not ready. Hasn't anybody watched Hidden Figures?! Talent is talent. We need strong courses K-12 such that people can stop when they want/need knowing that everything they received/mastered to that point was robust preparation for the next thing.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sneezyone

[regentrude]

6 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

This is an article about engineering education in the US. It touches on the role of calculus as a gatekeeper course. https://issues.org/engineering-education-change-sorby-fortenberry-bertoline/

A person who writes this sentence

Quote

 Instead of forcing our students to memorize the intricacies of the chain rule in taking derivatives, would it not be better to teach them to use mathematics to model physical phenomena, to question numbers that magically appear on their calculator readout, or to know when to apply the chain rule and where to look it up when needed

does not seem to have the math expertise to know what they are speaking of.

There is nothing to "memorize" about the "intricacies" of the chain rule - once understood, it is a very basic principle. And you cannot use "mathematics to model physical phenomena" without an understanding of calculus. You cannot "look up" the chain rule when you need it- you need to know how to apply it. It's a very basic principle of first year college math, not something heinously complicated.

I question whether whoever wrote this actually understands calculus and its applications. 

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

We don't need tracks. We need robust, comprehensive, math education K-12. 

We need differentiation. We cannot have a system where everybody marches at the step of the slowest drummer and the valuable middle grades are a holding pattern where nothing new is taught in math. That is barely an exaggeration. If arithmetic with integers is finished in 4th grade, 5th grade should be arithmetic with fractions and negative integers, and algebra can easily begin in 6th grade - instead of repeating fractions over and over and over again for three years until almost every kid groans at the sight of math.  Yes, not everybody will be capable of grasping higher math. The solution cannot be to shortchange the students who can.

And differentiation can be completely cost-neutral solution. At my ids' middle school, they had 12  6th grade classes and 6 math teachers. You can group students in several different levels without spending an extra dime on more teachers or more rooms. But "elite" has become a dirty word in education.
 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

We need differentiation. We cannot have a system where everybody marches at the step of the slowest drummer and the valuable middle grades are a holding pattern where nothing new is taught in math. That is barely an exaggeration. If arithmetic with integers is finished in 4th grade, 5th grade should be arithmetic with fractions and negative integers, and algebra can easily begin in 6th grade - instead of repeating fractions over and over and over again for three years until almost every kid groans at the sight of math.  Yes, not everybody will be capable of grasping higher math. The solution cannot be to shortchange the students who can.

And differentiation can be completely cost-neutral solution. At my ids' middle school, they had 12  6th grade classes and 6 math teachers. You can group students in several different levels without spending an extra dime on more teachers or more rooms. But "elite" has become a dirty word in education.
 

Differentiation doesn't mean having a bunch of calcified paths tho, or pushing unready kids into the next class, which is what I see locally. Kids in the upper track who NEVER move down. Kids in the lower track who NEVER move up. Shoring up weak skills as students progress...that is differentiation. Changing a course to ensure students pass and move on...that's not. If a student is ready for the next class, move them on. This idea that courses should change to match the students vs. helping students reach/meet the expectations of the course is what I object to.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

It's hard to attract students who are comfy with math and science in education programs b/c there is so little pay, respect and prestige attached  to the job. If there is anything that could be done quickly to improve the quality of teaching/learning in the pipeline, that would be it...but COVID. Sigh. In a booming job market, talented people aren't running to teach.

And top students who will make great math teachers like my niece are constantly discouraged from pursuing their passion. She is regularly told, “ you’re too smart to be a high school teacher.” Who do these people want teaching their children, grandchildren, and our citizens of tomorrow if not our best and brightest?

Edited February 17, 2022 by Frances

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

There is also a community college route. It’s cheaper for sure even if it still takes a long time. A typical engineering transfer at our CC spends 3 years there to get all the math and physics knocked out. Ours channels kids to SLO afterwards. So yes, you can get there in CA without having done calculus in high school by opting through a CC transfer. And these kids get extra attention given the tiny class sizes and all the office hours/tutoring centers…. It takes hard work for sure. 

That route is also common here, although I’m not sure they are taking three, rather than two years at CC. Most say they appreciate the much smaller class sizes in the intro weeded classes.

[Roadrunner]

Just now, Frances said:

That route is also common here, although I’m not sure they are taking three, rather than two years at CC. Most say they appreciate the much smaller class sizes in the intro weeded classes.

Many here repeat precalculus. 😞  Also Engineering physics sequence at our CC requires Calculus 2 for mechanics and calculus 3 for E&M.
So due to the sequential nature of those classes, three years isn’t uncommon.