Valuing both expertise and diy -balance

[Xahm]

I'm not sure exactly how to express this, so please bear with me and I'll try to clarify if this doesn't make sense.

One fear many new homeschool parents face is "how can I do this if I'm not trained to be a teacher/not an expert in all subjects?" We, rightly I think, reassure them that they are experts in their children and can totally do this if they are willing to learn and be flexible. I think this reflects a valuable lesson for our kids, too, that they can be life long learners and can trust themselves to do hard things. 

At the same time, there's a worrying tendency in some people that seems to be over represented in the homeschooling community but found in many other places as well. It is a kind of anti-intellectualism and distrust of the expert. If a Dr or scientist says something, it is considered less trustworthy by some. We can do xyz ourselves, so why should we shell out big bucks to someone with fancy initials? We are opting for a different measures of success, so why should we trust anyone in the system, and why should we encourage our children to get the kind of education that earns them those fancy credentials?

To be clear, I'm not blaming homeschooling for this. I'm more looking at it as a possible result of taking the diy attitude of homeschoolers to an extreme. In our location, is somewhat easy to correct for this as we can get classes taught by people with more expertise than a typical teacher would have, but people who live further from a city have a harder time with this. Not to mention classes taught by experts are often expensive and out of reach of those who live close to them.

Is this an issue you think about at all, and if so, do you do anything different in your homeschooling/life as a result?

[8filltheheart]

It honestly doesn't sound much different than a subset that has always existed---the extreme unschoolers, the don't value education as an end toward specific goals, etc type crowd.  

FWIW, you must be around different homeschoolers than I am.  I am 99.999% around homeschoolers who farm out everything to co-ops (especially CC) or online sources.

[HomeAgain]

I may be taking this in the wrong direction, so please correct me if I do.

It is something I worry about, I think.  I know that there are certain aspects I am not as good at doing as others.  My kid hates doing art.  He loves studying art, but hates doing it.  Yes, I can DIY, but even if I do, I'm relying on people I count on as experts to assist me in that endeavor. And the result is the same.  Now, when I find a teacher that not only enjoys doing art, but enjoys teaching it and that enthusiasm for the subject shines through, my child gets MORE out of the lesson than doing it at home with me.  I can DIY high school, but I really prefer finding mentors for my kid who live and breathe their subject and are willing to share that love, especially if it's something my kid struggles with.

The nature of homeschoolers has always been to exist outside the current system.  The reasons for that vary, but there can be a tendency to create pockets of group-think if a community becomes too insulated. I'm not sure what there is to be done about that, if anything, but I can see how a philosophy or thought process of self-sufficiency can bleed over to all areas of life.

[8filltheheart]

I disagree that committed parents can't do a great job at home even if they aren't enthusiastic or experts. But, I actually think it is a strange conversation in today's homeschooling world. I deliberately try to encourage parents to be their kids' primary teacher, and the vast majority respond that they just can't do it. If you took a survey of homeschoolers, the number teaching their kids themselves would be a very small percentage. I don't know even one person, not one, out of all the places we have lived in the past 5 yrs (we made 2 major moves in that timeframe) where kids were being taught primarily at home with mom as teacher except for very young kids. I am definitely a minority of 1 in my homeschooling circles,  and I don't even teach everything myself, just most subjects.

Edited January 23, 2022 by 8filltheheart

[Porridge]

I think you can DIY and value expertise at the same time. You choose a textbook for, say, Algebra, because you value the expertise of the author. But then as a parent, you DIY by learning and implementing in with your particular student. 

Can a DIY-parent necessarily teach better than an experienced classroom teacher? Probably not, but with the aid of excellent materials (textbooks, lectures, etc), the parent can likely help facilitate a learning experience that might be better for an individual student.

I think the danger comes if / when we idealize or idolize DIY education.  It's a means of education but not THE means of education. I guess it's - Rugged Individualism -it's a way of ordering life (or in this case, education) that can become (but maybe shouldn't be) an overarching worldview.

 

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

I feel that anti-intellectualism is appallingly popular in general at the moment & it absolutely concerns me. I actively avoid homeschoolers who spurn science & reject academia.

I’m a rarity in my area given that I teach my child almost exclusively myself using primarily pencil & paper, as opposed to digital media, as well as a variety of curricula, as opposed to boxed. Among that minority I am rarer still for having a dedicated classroom & more-or-less set hours, which is a need of DS’ moreso than a preference of mine. I do what works for us & will continue to do so until it no longer does. 

As far as expertise vs DIY… I view it more as valuing both content/subject expertise as well as my own expertise with my student. Quality curricula are tools developed by experts in their fields. There are some areas I have adequate expertise in to not need their assistance & other areas where it is greatly appreciated. I am an expert in my child - how much challenge he can handle, where he needs additional scaffolding, what an ideal pace looks like, & how his abilities / disabilities impact all of the above. No curriculum, outside class, or other teacher(s) can answer those questions better than I can. 

[Xahm]

On 1/23/2022 at 11:55 AM, 8filltheheart said:

It honestly doesn't sound much different than a subset that has always existed---the extreme unschoolers, the don't value education as an end toward specific goals, etc type crowd.  

FWIW, you must be around different homeschoolers than I am.  I am 99.999% around homeschoolers who farm out everything to co-ops (especially CC) or online sources.

CC is actually one of the things I was thinking of as epitomizing trying to find a balance and, in my view, generally failing. On one hand, it requires people to trust the "homeschooling experts" while at the same time championing a tutor who learns alongside the students, not needing to be an expert to lead people to knowledge. 

I do know lots of homeschoolers who are basically diy-ing or making small co-ops with other families, partly because those are the ones doing the same other activities we are. 

[Xahm]

23 hours ago, WTM said:

I think you can DIY and value expertise at the same time. You choose a textbook for, say, Algebra, because you value the expertise of the author. But then as a parent, you DIY by learning and implementing in with your particular student. 

Can a DIY-parent necessarily teach better than an experienced classroom teacher? Probably not, but with the aid of excellent materials (textbooks, lectures, etc), the parent can likely help facilitate a learning experience that might be better for an individual student.

I think the danger comes if / when we idealize or idolize DIY education.  It's a means of education but not THE means of education. I guess it's - Rugged Individualism -it's a way of ordering life (or in this case, education) that can become (but maybe shouldn't be) an overarching worldview.

 

I think it's your last paragraph I'm somewhat concerned about. I want my kids to feel confident in their homeschooled education, but I don't want to make "our way" out to be more than it is. Kids have a way of becoming little zealots because even those that are good-for-age at seeing nuance are still immature. I want my kids to trust their ability to learn and my ability to learn and teach, but I also want to point them to good resources when we don't know things. I also try to encourage them to read things they disagree with and think about them without immediately accepting or rejecting them.

I also, in addition to knowing a lot of diy homeschoolers, know some who feel chained to a particular curriculum. I want to encourage them to trust themselves, but I've been thinking of how to frame that in a way that isn't anti-expert/anti-intellectual. 

[Porridge]

6 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

I’m a rarity in my area given that I teach my child almost exclusively myself using primarily pencil & paper, as opposed to digital media, as well as a variety of curricula, as opposed to boxed. Among that minority I am rarer still for having a dedicated classroom & more-or-less set hours, which is a need of DS’ moreso than a preference of mine. I do what works for us & will continue to do so until it no longer does. 

Do you feel you have community? DIY is an individualized path, and by definition, not in step with others. We've found it hard as the kids get older, to find ways for them to build relationships.

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

3 minutes ago, WTM said:

Do you feel you have community? DIY is an individualized path, and by definition, not in step with others. We've found it hard as the kids get older, to find ways for them to build relationships.

We moved to our current area a year ago, so “community” is a work-in-progress.

He participates in homeschool tennis & just started homeschool ice skating with a pair of his tennis buddies. There are two families (one homeschooling, one not) who we meet for dinner or attend events with once a month or so. DH & I get along with the couples, DS gets along with the kids. He has a public-schooled friends down the street he plays with frequently. He plays competitive soccer & is in Scouts.

He’s very social so it’s something I’m watchful of, but so far he hasn’t had any complaints about being lonely. 

[Porridge]

44 minutes ago, Xahm said:

I think it's your last paragraph I'm somewhat concerned about. I want my kids to feel confident in their homeschooled education, but I don't want to make "our way" out to be more than it is. Kids have a way of becoming little zealots because even those that are good-for-age at seeing nuance are still immature. I want my kids to trust their ability to learn and my ability to learn and teach, but I also want to point them to good resources when we don't know things. I also try to encourage them to read things they disagree with and think about them without immediately accepting or rejecting them.

I think it's easy for parents and kids both to make "their way" out to be more than it is. When you step off the beaten path (homeschool instead of traditional brick and mortar schooling), you want to feel validated in making the unusual choice. So you may have to tell yourself (and your kids) why your way is "better." And even though you may tell yourself it's not Better (with a capital B, meaning categorically Better than all other options), just better for your family, perhaps the messaging gets twisted.

[Clarita]

This is interesting. I've never thought because I am capable of homeschooling my kids that I don't need someone with a fancy credential or expertise. 

In terms of feeling like our way is better or the best kind of thinking, our family doesn't shy away from looking at the pros and cons. We have friends who are private, public, and home school. I don't think they would be doing better by their kids if they homeschooled them. Personally, I feel it's more helpful to people considering homeschool to know what resources, help and options there are in the homeschool world than to categorically say "You can do it!" This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think everyone can or should homeschool.  

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, Xahm said:

I think it's your last paragraph I'm somewhat concerned about. I want my kids to feel confident in their homeschooled education, but I don't want to make "our way" out to be more than it is. Kids have a way of becoming little zealots because even those that are good-for-age at seeing nuance are still immature. I want my kids to trust their ability to learn and my ability to learn and teach, but I also want to point them to good resources when we don't know things. I also try to encourage them to read things they disagree with and think about them without immediately accepting or rejecting them.

I also, in addition to knowing a lot of diy homeschoolers, know some who feel chained to a particular curriculum. I want to encourage them to trust themselves, but I've been thinking of how to frame that in a way that isn't anti-expert/anti-intellectual. 

I think that in truth you might be treading into familial decisions that are sort of a boundry not crossed.  I personally think CC offers an incredibly watered down version of a traditional education with nothing classical about it, but plenty of families love it and think it is the absolute best.  I have friends who order a box and do every workbook, short answer, textbook in there.  I know it would absolutely drive me crazy.  But, that security blanket is what gives them the courage to homeschool.  Casually discussing different options in a generic way?  Fine.  But, classifying good/better/best.....not going to go over well, not at all.

FWIW, I have told moms that I am my kids' primary teacher for almost all subjects and have had that taken as an opening to offer me suggestions on how I can offer better options via x,y,z.   Insert huge eye roll here.  Pass the bean dip and move on is the best polite response I can give.   They think they mean well, but yeah, no.

[Xahm]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

I think that in truth you might be treading into familial decisions that are sort of a boundry not crossed.  I personally think CC offers an incredibly watered down version of a traditional education with nothing classical about it, but plenty of families love it and think it is the absolute best.  I have friends who order a box and do every workbook, short answer, textbook in there.  I know it would absolutely drive me crazy.  But, that security blanket is what gives them the courage to homeschool.  Casually discussing different options in a generic way?  Fine.  But, classifying good/better/best.....not going to go over well, not at all.

FWIW, I have told moms that I am my kids' primary teacher for almost all subjects and have had that taken as an opening to offer me suggestions on how I can offer better options via x,y,z.   Insert huge eye roll here.  Pass the bean dip and move on is the best polite response I can give.   They think they mean well, but yeah, no.

I have gotten better at keeping opinions to myself. One example where I do say something: a mom I see weekly is lamenting that her elementary age kids are in years every day over their cursive work. They started a "school in a box" and joined the accredited program without ever having introduced cursive before. That means these kids are suddenly several years "behind" in a skill and constantly feeling lost. I suggested she simply ignore the required assignments, substitute her own that work for her kids, and if the school fails the kids for that subject, just ignore that, too. She was surprised and pleased to realize that will work just fine. Every week she has complaints about this program. Even though I think she'd be far better off dumping it, I try to stick with positive, general comments like, "that's tough, but it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on how to make it work for y'all "

I really just don't talk to hard core cc parents. Their kids have told me how they are way smarter than public school kids because they have cc, and I've made non committal noises.

[lulalu]

I know one family that has taken the extreme bias against education and expertise. It drives me insane when she begins downplaying degrees knowing full well I have several degrees. She has a large distrust of government intervention into her life. And that has lead to some (imo) irrational decisions in her parenting. She has four children that are in desperate need of speech therapy, and one that needs therapy for other issues as well. She is one that doesn't believe girls need a deep education as they are being raised to be stay at home moms (and this is just something I cannot wrap my head around at all). They are very lax in their homeschool, and the children are behind even in their minimal schooling. She doesn't see any need to outsource education. 

Most of my interactions with homeschoolers are online as I am overseas and locals don't homeschool. I see a lot of newer homeschoolers asking for everything to be online and outsourced. It has grown a lot in just the time since I started homeschooling my DS five years ago. I see questions on fb all the time asking for online classes for even very small children. An ad on FB keeps showing me an online preschool. 

 

I do have friends that homeschool. And we don't talk too much about the actual schooling part. But these are all families with elementary aged children. Most of my friends are using offline, and teaching themselves. Although I have seen those with middle school ages children choosing to place kids in schools. I don't think any of my friends (excepting the one from my first paragraph) are teaching beyond elementary school. 

 

It is an interesting question and observation. Anti- intellectual thoughts do have a hold on some in the homeschool world. But I don't think the more recent additions to homeschooling have the same thoughts, I feel the recent additions actually have more dependency on expertise and seeking outsourcing. I personally think knowing your own limitations is vital for success. I don't know everything and cannot teach everything. That doesn't mean I cannot find books and resources and learn alongside, but in some areas it is difficult to identify good resources if I don't have enough background knowledge. 

[Ellie]

On 1/23/2022 at 4:55 PM, WTM said:

Can a DIY-parent necessarily teach better than an experienced classroom teacher? Probably not, but with the aid of excellent materials (textbooks, lectures, etc), the parent can likely help facilitate a learning experience that might be better for an individual student.

 

Yes, I can teach better than an experienced classroom teacher when it comes to teaching my own children. Absolutely. Also, I don't have "students." I have children. And I don't just facilitate. I teach. And I believe that all parents can teach their own children, too. It is sad that even among hsers, the idea that parents can only "help facilitate" their children's learning still hangs on, even after 40+ years of the current homeschool "movement."

[Farrar]

I have had trouble convincing parents that they can teach 2nd grade math effectively in the last year. So I'm just... not even sure how to tackle this question anymore. Like, so many homeschool parents think they need a computer program and some recorded videos to help them teach basic basic arithmetic now. They have zero ability to interest in learning anything. Zero trust in themselves. For me, I feel like people are in such different places with this topic that it's hard to even talk about.

[lulalu]

30 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I have had trouble convincing parents that they can teach 2nd grade math effectively in the last year. So I'm just... not even sure how to tackle this question anymore. Like, so many homeschool parents think they need a computer program and some recorded videos to help them teach basic basic arithmetic now. They have zero ability to interest in learning anything. Zero trust in themselves. For me, I feel like people are in such different places with this topic that it's hard to even talk about.

Yes, this is what I am seeing everyday on FB. It is alarming. Or parents don't have time to teach. When I say 1 st grade can be done in an hour a day, some say they don't even have that amount of time! I wonder what some of these homes are like. If you don't have an hour to do some school how do you even have time for homework or a bedtime read aloud? 

 

[Dmmetler]

59 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Yes, I can teach better than an experienced classroom teacher when it comes to teaching my own children. Absolutely. Also, I don't have "students." I have children. And I don't just facilitate. I teach. And I believe that all parents can teach their own children, too. It is sad that even among hsers, the idea that parents can only "help facilitate" their children's learning still hangs on, even after 40+ years of the current homeschool "movement."

I’m an experienced classroom teacher, and ITA. There is NO way that I can equal in a classroom setting what I can do 1-1, and no way that I have the same ability to match just right with my private students I see once a week for an hour vs what I could do for my own child or my bonus kids. 

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

I have had trouble convincing parents that they can teach 2nd grade math effectively in the last year. So I'm just... not even sure how to tackle this question anymore. Like, so many homeschool parents think they need a computer program and some recorded videos to help them teach basic basic arithmetic now. They have zero ability to interest in learning anything. Zero trust in themselves. For me, I feel like people are in such different places with this topic that it's hard to even talk about.

Same.  This is why the conversation strikes the wrong chord with me.   At one recent homeschool to college talk I gave, my presentation left almost all of the attendees annoyed with me bc they WANT their homeschools to be replicas of traditional ps type educations.  They want to farm out everything to the simplest avenue that checks off a list of to-dos.  Talking about developing educational interests/strengths that highlighted their reasons for choosing to homeschool over other options fell completely flat.  The attitudes have gradually shifted since I started giving them in 2014, but this was just extremely different.  I am not sure how to articulate the palpable level of detachment toward their kids' direct educations.  It was just bizarre.  Pursuing ECs, achievements, honors.....unless there was a way to farm those out to some other authoritarian (not authoritative) source, they were considered absolutely unattainable. (They wanted someone to be able to tell them exactly what needs to be done and do it for them.,,,zero acceptance of the ability to do these things themselves.)

Edited January 25, 2022 by 8filltheheart

[AnneGG]

I like to think most homeschool parents are doing the best they can with what they have. There will always be homeschoolers on opposite sides of spectrum. Some of this boils down to the parent’s strengths and weaknesses (perceived or not.) 
 

My mom used Abeka with me all the way through. I hated school but I love my mom and we got through it. It is safe to say my youngest sibling got the best education because all the kinks had been worked out by that point. 😄

 

 

[Porridge]

5 hours ago, lulalu said:

I personally think knowing your own limitations is vital for success. I don't know everything and cannot teach everything. That doesn't mean I cannot find books and resources and learn alongside, but in some areas it is difficult to identify good resources if I don't have enough background knowledge. 

Agree - If you don't have enough background knowledge, it's really hard to judge whether you're doing "enough" or whether your resources or plan are of sufficient quality. I think that's how you end up with parents who feel the Costco workbook is all a child needs. 

 

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

I have had trouble convincing parents that they can teach 2nd grade math effectively in the last year. So I'm just... not even sure how to tackle this question anymore. Like, so many homeschool parents think they need a computer program and some recorded videos to help them teach basic basic arithmetic now. They have zero ability to interest in learning anything. Zero trust in themselves. For me, I feel like people are in such different places with this topic that it's hard to even talk about.

Has this been a general trend preceding this past year, or only in the past year? I wonder whether parents are so overwhelmed with the pandemic and other aspects of life, that they can't fathom anything other than farming out the education piece?

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

Talking about developing educational interests/strengths that highlighted their reasons for choosing to homeschool over other options fell completely flat.  The attitudes have gradually shifted since I started giving them in 2014, but this was just extremely different.  I am not sure how to articulate the palpable level of detachment toward their kids' direct educations.  It was just bizarre.  Pursuing ECs, achievements, honors.....unless there was a way to farm those out to some other authoritarian (not authoritative) source, they were considered absolutely unattainable. (They wanted someone to be able to tell them exactly what needs to be done and do it for them.,,,zero acceptance of the ability to do these things themselves.)

In our area, there is such a focus on getting into a good college, that it does feel like most families are just trying to check things off a "how to get into a good college checklist." It's very pragmatic. The college admissions books will tell you that your child needs to have a "hook" of some kind - some area of special interest where they shine. But instead of interpreting that as permission / encouragement to let the child develop and focus on educational interests / strengths, it's seen as another box to put on the checklist. So the focus is on the checklist, not on the actual child and their learning and personal development. Perhaps that mentality bleeds over from brick and mortar school culture to the homeschool side as well?  This is one reason I have really mixed feelings about sending DD to school next year. 

[lulalu]

5 hours ago, Ellie said:

Yes, I can teach better than an experienced classroom teacher when it comes to teaching my own children. Absolutely. Also, I don't have "students." I have children. And I don't just facilitate. I teach. And I believe that all parents can teach their own children, too. It is sad that even among hsers, the idea that parents can only "help facilitate" their children's learning still hangs on, even after 40+ years of the current homeschool "movement."

I agree that being an expert in the child you are teaching is worth far more than ability to teach a class full of children. 

I can only speak to my own experiences, but having grown up with friends who were homeschooled has shaped my views. I think after 40 years of the homeschool movement many people know adults who were homeschooled growing up and have made opinions based on those results. For me four families (so 12 of my close friends) stick out in mind and shape decisions I make. These families all approached schooling differently, but there was no outsourcing. Many of them struggled in big ways in one or more subjects. Many struggled with how to learn from someone other than mom. One family has a very odd way of speaking directions and receiving instructions. It was like they all learned their own speech patterns and can't apply that to others. 

For me growing up among these families has made me realize (this is my personal conclusion) learning how to communicate so others can understand is important to me. And I also have concluded that listening to experts in their area of expertise is beneficial and goes beyond what I can offer by myself because I am not an expert in all things. I think it is important for a child to experience the wide variety of ideas through experts. And I think it is important to have a wide variety of people giving directions and explanations so a child can learn how to follow different word choices and ways of speaking. 

But I don't think I am alone in making decisions for our homeschool based on those I know who have homeschooled before me. 

[8filltheheart]

16 minutes ago, WTM said:

In our area, there is such a focus on getting into a good college, that it does feel like most families are just trying to check things off a "how to get into a good college checklist." It's very pragmatic. The college admissions books will tell you that your child needs to have a "hook" of some kind - some area of special interest where they shine. But instead of interpreting that as permission / encouragement to let the child develop and focus on educational interests / strengths, it's seen as another box to put on the checklist. So the focus is on the checklist, not on the actual child and their learning and personal development. Perhaps that mentality bleeds over from brick and mortar school culture to the homeschool side as well?  This is one reason I have really mixed feelings about sending DD to school next year. 

No.  That is not it.  I am realizing that I can no longer even offer my talks with a focus on a "good college" admission's goal.  I am recognizing that my talk needs to be dumbed down to nothing more than DE/co-op/online boxes checked for the local CC or local U.  My talk, when I originally started offering it, was geared toward competitive admissions and competitive scholarships.  My kids have all attended college for very low cost to free+.  I offered my talks to "pay it forward" bc understanding admissions' processes and how things are perceived as homeschool applicants is a unique opportunity to really shine and make admissions' committees take notice.  Since we have a lot of kids and live on 1 income, my goal has always been to try to help parents recognize that their kids have great opportunities to take ownership of "why homeschool vs. traditional school."  But, more and more, parents do not believe that they can offer any sort of direct education for their kids past early elementary.  

[Clarita]

3 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I am realizing that I can no longer even offer my talks with a focus on a "good college" admission's goal.  I am recognizing that my talk needs to be dumbed down to nothing more than DE/co-op/online boxes checked for the local CC or local U.  My talk, when I originally started offering it, was geared toward competitive admissions and competitive scholarships. 

That's a real bummer because I would love that talk. (in a few years of course, my eldest is in K) I have found very few in-person homeschool parents that have the same goal of giving their kids a more elevated education than a public school can offer. 

[Farrar]

I had someone who came to me for my expertise tell me that I wasn't thinking creatively enough when I suggested that early elementary schoolers should not get their whole education delivered on the computer screen. Sigh.

[UHP]

25 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

My talk, when I originally started offering it, was geared toward competitive admissions and competitive scholarships.

Would you share an outline of your original (or even: of your ideal) talk here?

[8filltheheart]

8 minutes ago, lulalu said:

I agree that being an expert in the child you are teaching is worth far more than ability to teach a class full of children. 

I can only speak to my own experiences, but having grown up with friends who were homeschooled has shaped my views. I think after 40 years of the homeschool movement many people know adults who were homeschooled growing up and have made opinions based on those results. For me four families (so 12 of my close friends) stick out in mind and shape decisions I make. These families all approached schooling differently, but there was no outsourcing. Many of them struggled in big ways in one or more subjects. Many struggled with how to learn from someone other than mom. One family has a very odd way of speaking directions and receiving instructions. It was like they all learned their own speech patterns and can't apply that to others. 

For me growing up among these families has made me realize (this is my personal conclusion) learning how to communicate so others can understand is important to me. And I also have concluded that listening to experts in their area of expertise is beneficial and goes beyond what I can offer by myself because I am not an expert in all things. I think it is important for a child to experience the wide variety of ideas through experts. And I think it is important to have a wide variety of people giving directions and explanations so a child can learn how to follow different word choices and ways of speaking. 

But I don't think I am alone in making decisions for our homeschool based on those I know who have homeschooled before me. 

Well, I know kids who have gone to ps and kids who have used correspondence schools like Seton who have gone on to struggle significantly in college.  Kids also don't need to take academic-oriented classes in order to experience interacting with adults with different expectations/directions, etc.  ECs, jobs, youth groups, etc are all normal kid activities.  Living in a bubble is not the norm.  I'm sure my older kids are not that far off in age from many of the posters on this forum (I am homeschooling my 10 yr old granddaughter  🙂 )  I don't think it was the norm at large umpteen yrs ago.  I know my own kids are quite successful.  Their homeschooled friends didn't take the path that my kids did, but they are all successful in their own right; it just took some of them longer to find their feet (not unlike a huge % of kids from their generation.)

[8filltheheart]

16 minutes ago, UHP said:

Would you share an outline of your original (or even: of your ideal) talk here?

On the forum? Sorry, no.  It is a PP that has a lot of hrs of research and the personal experiences of my kids that went into it.  I offer my talks for free. I can see it easily being plagiarized and used by someone for profit.  FWIW, my workshops are about 2 hrs long and cover everything from high school courses/transcripts, selecting colleges that match your student's profile, the application process/essays, financial aid/scholarships, etc.  That is one of the reasons why I am so befuddled by some of the reactions.  LOL, I am offering ways to reduce costs and they are mad bc I am not telling them what they want to hear.

[EKS]

I homeschooled for a good long time, both as a novice and later as an expert in terms of teaching and subject matter.  My opinion is that even as a novice you can give your guinea-pig child a decent education if you start early and are willing to run ahead of them.  However, subsequent children will reap the benefits of having a more experienced teacher.  My older son got a solid education, but my younger son's education was far better just because I had had six years of homeschooling experience before getting to him.

And the younger one had another advantage in the last years we were homeschooling in that I completed two graduate degrees during that time.  I was astounded at how what I learned in those programs changed my teaching.  That experience really brought home the point that there is a fundamental difference between someone who is earnest but fundamentally just winging it and a real expert.

[UHP]

On 1/23/2022 at 11:00 AM, Xahm said:

I'm not sure exactly how to express this

I might not have caught on to what you mean, but I had two reactions:

1. Many experts are very naive about learning and about instruction. They became experts in a subject that was easy for them. They remember what it was like to be in grad school better than they remember what it was like to be in fourth grade. Their advice for fourth-graders, and for fourth-grade teachers, can miss the mark.

2. The world has some credentialed experts in education. They are specialists in learning and specialists in instruction. Some of them might  even be specialists in how fourth graders learn. These experts have not reached a consensus among themselves, not for a hundred years. They have a range of recommendations in 2022 (in math: from Jo Boaler, to Jo Boaler's critics) and that range of recommendations was wildly different in 2002, in 1982, and in 1962.

It's easy to tell that electronics have gotten better but it's hard to tell whether math education has gotten better since 1962.

[Clemsondana]

Spouse and I both have STEM PhDs, so we have an appreciation for what expertise in a field and training in data analysis can do.  But, we've also seen enough to know that experts can become dogmatic and not open to new information and, in fields where there there is a lot of variability (such as medicine or education) there can be a struggle to switch to the idea that the individual in front of you may be an outlier so what works for the 'average' may not be the best solution for that person.  

As for how that affects our homeschool, the first thing is that I try to teach the kids to think about alternate explanations and the difference between correlation and causation from an early age.  At our house this was easily done through the types of questions my kids asked - Why are there more boys playing pee-wee basketball?  Well, on average...but for any individual person you can't look at them and know whether they'd prefer basketball or dance... and then we apply it to history and news headlines.  

We participate in a co-op, but it's only enrichment through elementary so I taught everything.  In middle and high, there is a mix of academic and enrichment classes to choose from.  I would have been comfortable continuing to do everything at home, but I chose to take advantage of the expertise of others for some classes - mostly foreign language and some English classes, although sometimes we choose to take a class in another subject so that they can do it with friends or with a favorite teacher.  I've also been happy for them to take some electives - a 1/2 credit of fine arts was fulfilled with a music theory class where kid was exposed to all sorts of musical styles that I wouldn't have known about, another 1/4 credit was fulfilled with a ballroom dance class that wouldn't have been nearly as much fun if it was just our family in the living room.  For at home classes, sometimes I've taught and discussed directly, while other times (such as wiht AoPS math) kid has done a lot of self-instruction and only come to me when needing help.  That has been very kid-and-subject specific.  

The examples above are mostly about preference and scheduling.  I think that the important thing is knowing when to seek outside expert help.  If a kid has a passion that exceeds what I can help with, then it might be time to help them find an expert, whether it be a 1:1 tutor or a class...or maybe they just need good reference books.  If they have a particular struggle, I might need to seek help from a variety of experts before finding the one who figures out what will help my kid.  If nothing else, they can give me things to try even if I have to combine them into my own DIY solution.  I think that, on one hand, there's no reason to shun experts in a subject, but we also don't need to be reliant on experts to the extent that we doubt our abilities.