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Omicron anecdata?

Not_a_Number

By Not_a_Number,
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KSera

KSera

Posted
Posted

More on the Olympics theme: Officials play down Covid cluster fears after water polo players test positive

The WHO statements are a little better than those from French Officials, but they are right in line with the Vertlartnic memes and I find it a bit infuriating:

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The advice, she said, was: "Be responsible, especially when you have these athletes who are working.
 
"It's just a very big moment in their career, and it would be a horrible thing if you gave that to an athlete. So anybody with symptoms is asked to stay at home or stay in their hotel."

We must all be careful of elite athletes, but disabled and immune compromised people just need to take their chances to receive medical care because it’s not worth taking precautions in hospitals and medical clinics to keep them safe. It’s only horrible if you spread Covid to athletes 🙄🤬. 

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KSera

KSera

Posted
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One of the cyclists who got Covid during the Tour de France and pushed through it (saying “it’s not as serious now” https://apnews.com/article/pogacar-covid-tour-de-france-537dc243487dd59cc141eed1699cc40d) is now having to withdraw from the Olympics due to extreme fatigue. 
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/cycling/pogacar-pulls-out-of-olympics-with-extreme-fatigue/ar-BB1qqNfv

 

 

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Ausmumof3

Ausmumof3

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On 7/26/2024 at 1:43 AM, KSera said:

One of the cyclists who got Covid during the Tour de France and pushed through it (saying “it’s not as serious now” https://apnews.com/article/pogacar-covid-tour-de-france-537dc243487dd59cc141eed1699cc40d) is now having to withdraw from the Olympics due to extreme fatigue. 
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/cycling/pogacar-pulls-out-of-olympics-with-extreme-fatigue/ar-BB1qqNfv

 

 

We are tennis fans and there’s a scary number of players pulling out due to cold like stuff - bronchitis, tonsillitis - one of DHs favourites was sick at the end of RG 2 months ago and keeps pulling out of stuff due to illness. 
 

It’s tough I guess because often these athletes have a short window of peak play time so if they don’t play and miss it their opportunity is gone, but then the lasting damage they could do by a Covid infection is frustrating.

 

Aussies all seem to be wearing P2 masks - ear loop variety and not that well fitted but a good start 

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KSera

KSera

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38 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Aussies all seem to be wearing P2 masks - ear loop variety and not that well fitted but a good start 

I was surprised to read how negative the response to that has been from the Aussie public. It’s so weird how people are about it. It seems a ridiculous risk to take to me to be breathing dirty air right before a competition you have trained years for. 

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prairiewindmomma

prairiewindmomma

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-27/iv-fluids-global-shortage-explainer/104147878

So we have a shortage of IV fluids due to “unexpected increase in demand” - running out of saline - totally normal.

It's a worldwide problem....and here it's one we've been dealing with in waves since 2014. A lot of stuff is getting switched--to oral antibiotics, to iv push, to compounding dextrose and sodium chloride and placing that into smaller bags. It really freaking sucks....

We have a worldwide monopoly of sterile solutions manufacturers, so if 1-2 go down with contamination or storm damage or whatever, it sets off a worldwide shortage because there is no slack in the system. 

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Ausmumof3

Ausmumof3

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3 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

It's a worldwide problem....and here it's one we've been dealing with in waves since 2014. A lot of stuff is getting switched--to oral antibiotics, to iv push, to compounding dextrose and sodium chloride and placing that into smaller bags. It really freaking sucks....

We have a worldwide monopoly of sterile solutions manufacturers, so if 1-2 go down with contamination or storm damage or whatever, it sets off a worldwide shortage because there is no slack in the system. 

I didn’t know that, thanks for the background info. Seems to be a problem for so many medical supplies. I’m thinking Crowdstrike has people thinking about the danger of monopoly more, and maybe that will filter through.

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Ausmumof3

Ausmumof3

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34 minutes ago, KSera said:

I was surprised to read how negative the response to that has been from the Aussie public. It’s so weird how people are about it. It seems a ridiculous risk to take to me to be breathing dirty air right before a competition you have trained years for. 

I’ve seen negativity from some outspoken social media celebrities but not so much from real life people. I think most people understand the need to protect yourself for a handful of weeks when you’ve trained years for events.

 

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Amoret

Amoret

Posted
Posted (edited)

SARS-CoV-2 Rapidly Infects Peripheral Sensory and Autonomic Neurons, Contributing to Central Nervous System Neuroinvasion before Viremia

Commentary 1:

Turns out SARS-CoV-2 RAPIDLY infects the NERVOUS SYSTEM long BEFORE it even enters the bloodstream… This paper, however, is pretty damn solid! It really ties a LOT of different lines of research together.

Commentary 2:

Three big takeaways:

1. SARS-CoV-2 can infect PNS neurons very rapidly after exposure, long before it gets near the bloodstream
2. The virus can move from PNS to CNS via axonal transport before it enters the blood
3. NRP-1 is how it does it independently of hACE2

Commentary 3:

Neuroinvasion “is not a rare event following SARS-CoV-2 infection” and occurs “well before the onset of symptomatic disease.”

Now that the pandemic has been declared over, COVID-19 is transitioning to “an endemic disease associated with long-term neurological sequelae.”

Edited by Amoret
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KSera

KSera

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Am I the only one that sometimes starts wondering if, with all the negative impacts on the brain from Covid, we’re not going to have enough people left with unimpacted brains that can figure out a way out of this mess?

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I talk to the trees

I talk to the trees

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, KSera said:

Am I the only one that sometimes starts wondering if, with all the negative impacts on the brain from Covid, we’re not going to have enough people left with unimpacted brains that can figure out a way out of this mess?

It’s like a very slow to unfold zombie apocalypse, isn’t it? (Only half-joking here. Not sure whether to laugh or cry, so I’ll just do both! 🤣😭)

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Amoret

Amoret

Posted
Posted

Long-term effects of COVID-19 on endothelial function, arterial stiffness, and blood pressure in college students: a pre-post-controlled study BMC Infectious Diseases. From the Abstract: “Our study demonstrated that COVID-19 has long-term detrimental effects on vascular function in college students. However, arterial stiffness tends to improve over time, while [Blood Pressure (BP)] may exhibit the opposite trend.”

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Amoret

Amoret

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Posted

Long COVID – a dystopian game of pinball: Prof Trish Greenhalgh explains the findings of her recent comprehensive Lancet review of Long Covid

She uses a clever extended metaphor: “Long COVID is a real condition whose complex biological basis is beginning to be understood. The sequence of events that makes COVID-19 into a protracted (and quite possibly, lifelong) illness in some but not all people is a bit like a dystopian game of pinball. An unlucky ball hits a series of key buffers, buzzers and bells, triggering a cascade of further events… [T]hese changes flip off additional cascades of biochemical messengers (‘supplementary pathological mechanisms’), which, in health, contribute to keeping the body in balance…. [T]hese microscopic changes in genes, molecules, proteins, cells and micro-organisms produce various kinds of organ damage…. [T]hese organ-level changes lead to the well-known symptoms of Long COVID described in the second paragraph above. Different people will experience different combinations of symptoms just as the various lights, buzzers and bells on a pinball machine react differently depending on the precise trajectory and force of the initial ball. But the process is always a whole-body phenomenon which begins with specific virological and immunological triggers and then cascades to affect multiple organs. You didn’t get that when you had COVID-19? Lucky you. The ball of your initial infection missed a few vital targets. But that doesn’t mean you’re immune from Long COVID for life. Your next infection could light up the whole machine.”

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Ausmumof3

Ausmumof3

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Immunity debt… (don’t hate me)… but I do have some concerns. My youngest has a cold/flu. Tested for Covid 3 times and still negative. As far as I know never had Covid before (and we’ve tested plenty). He is still quite blocked up 8 days on. I do think most of the craziness in terms of sickness we are seeing is related to Covid immune system issues, but I am wondering in the long term if my kids are going to have immune system issues due to not being exposed to colds or flus. At some point they will stop masking. Are they going to get super sick for a while? Are they going to get sicker as adults due to not getting exposed to stuff? I genuinely wish that society would clean stuff up so we reduce respiratory illness all round but am I going to cause us problems. Like when you go overseas and local people can drink the water but visitors can’t?

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bookbard

bookbard

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2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Immunity debt… (don’t hate me)… but I do have some concerns. My youngest has a cold/flu. Tested for Covid 3 times and still negative. As far as I know never had Covid before (and we’ve tested plenty). He is still quite blocked up 8 days on. I do think most of the craziness in terms of sickness we are seeing is related to Covid immune system issues, but I am wondering in the long term if my kids are going to have immune system issues due to not being exposed to colds or flus. At some point they will stop masking. Are they going to get super sick for a while? Are they going to get sicker as adults due to not getting exposed to stuff? I genuinely wish that society would clean stuff up so we reduce respiratory illness all round but am I going to cause us problems. Like when you go overseas and local people can drink the water but visitors can’t?

So, a couple of things.

a) you know my child has returned to school after a couple of years homeschooling and not getting sick. She's definitely caught things, but no more than my friend who didn't isolate all that time.

b) there's good research showing there are benefits to being exposed to bacteria, but not to viruses. Basically, it's good not to get sick.

c) I lived and worked in a number of poor countries in my 20s. Constant exposure to dirty water, mosquitoes and poor hygiene meant that the locals were shorter, sicker, and died younger. There was no benefit for them being exposed to all the things we are lucky not to be exposed to. I lived with a local family and they were sick all the time (and so was I!) 

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Ausmumof3

Ausmumof3

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2 hours ago, bookbard said:

So, a couple of things.

a) you know my child has returned to school after a couple of years homeschooling and not getting sick. She's definitely caught things, but no more than my friend who didn't isolate all that time.

b) there's good research showing there are benefits to being exposed to bacteria, but not to viruses. Basically, it's good not to get sick.

c) I lived and worked in a number of poor countries in my 20s. Constant exposure to dirty water, mosquitoes and poor hygiene meant that the locals were shorter, sicker, and died younger. There was no benefit for them being exposed to all the things we are lucky not to be exposed to. I lived with a local family and they were sick all the time (and so was I!) 

Thanks for the reassurance! Point one has been true for us though my DD is still masking - only one in her class who hasn’t been sick I think and I knew point 2. But point 3 is very helpful and reassuring! I think I’m just feeling very…. How long do we hold out for? If there has been no change now will there ever be a change? 

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KSera

KSera

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7 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

How long do we hold out for? If there has been no change now will there ever be a change?

Did you see the news yesterday about the promising nasal vaccine? And that’s one of 30 currently being tested. I totally know where you’re coming from, but I also think the only way the “how long“ question makes sense is if one is operating on the assumption that no one in their family would actually be badly affected by covid and I haven’t personally seen anything that reassures me on that point. If people think they actually have an unreasonably high risk of themselves or one of their family members becoming disabled as a result of catching Covid, the question looks different. The whole issue is that most people think, whether consciously or subconsciously, that that only happens to other people and won’t happen to them. A lot of people have discovered/will discover they’re wrong. 
 

My youngest is my only one young enough that I wonder if he will catch more colds initially in the future, because he hadn’t had that many illnesses before Covid started. It’s not that he would get more of them because his immune system isn’t as strong, just a matter of having more things he hasn’t had yet. There’s no advantage to catching more of them though. More illness is more illness. When kids used to catch more diseases than they do now, they were just more likely to die in childhood due to one of them. If your son has had flu shots, then he has had the advantage of having built up some protections against the flu without the drawbacks of having the actual flu which isn’t totally benign either.

I hope he feels better soon. Is it flu season there right now? Do you have flu tests available? Also, how many days after his symptoms started was the last Covid test you ran?


 


 

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Spryte

Spryte

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Sigh. My mom is 83, wheelchair bound in a nursing home with dementia — and just tested positive.

GI upset, nausea, lots of congestion, cough. They are giving doxycycline, zofran, Pepcid, I’m not sure what else, probably something for cough and decongestion.

I can’t do much from outside the home, and can’t visit for ten days, so I can’t really ask for tips, but if you have experience with recent strains — what does the progression look like these days?

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KSera

KSera

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I’m sorry @Spryte . I’m glad to hear they’re giving the Pepcid as part of her regimen, though. I’m hearing of lots of people starting with the gi symptoms. Also hearing of lots and lots of mucus issues for people. I hope your mom has a mild course. 
 

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73349

73349

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Posted
14 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 I do think most of the craziness in terms of sickness we are seeing is related to Covid immune system issues, but I am wondering in the long term if my kids are going to have immune system issues due to not being exposed to colds or flus. At some point they will stop masking. Are they going to get super sick for a while? Are they going to get sicker as adults due to not getting exposed to stuff? I genuinely wish that society would clean stuff up so we reduce respiratory illness all round but am I going to cause us problems. Like when you go overseas and local people can drink the water but visitors can’t?

A lot of immunity persists for many years. E.g., when I was ready to try to conceive in my late 20s, I got my rubella titre tested. It was still good. I'd had the shots when I was 1 and when I was 4.

Given that we know Covid harms immunity, we'll keep trying to avoid respiratory germs. (We may be continuing for several more years in my family, as DS has a lot of risk factors for Type 1 diabetes--preterm birth, being male, another autoimmune disease--and the risk decreases somewhat in one's twenties but increases with exposure to some viruses.)

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Mom_to3

Mom_to3

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Posted
23 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Immunity debt… (don’t hate me)… but I do have some concerns. My youngest has a cold/flu. Tested for Covid 3 times and still negative. As far as I know never had Covid before (and we’ve tested plenty). He is still quite blocked up 8 days on. I do think most of the craziness in terms of sickness we are seeing is related to Covid immune system issues, but I am wondering in the long term if my kids are going to have immune system issues due to not being exposed to colds or flus. At some point they will stop masking. Are they going to get super sick for a while? Are they going to get sicker as adults due to not getting exposed to stuff? I genuinely wish that society would clean stuff up so we reduce respiratory illness all round but am I going to cause us problems. Like when you go overseas and local people can drink the water but visitors can’t?

I just brought this up to DH the other day... .  I had never expected this to go on for this long (or for the long covid news to get worse and worse), and it's starting to be a big fraction of their lives, especially for our youngest (who doesn't even remember pre-covid). My most acute worry is that college is not that far off, and I don't want my oldest to miss a good part of his first year due to various illnesses. Of course, getting covid over and over (and over) again is not a viable alternative, at least for us at this point in time.

On a different note, not happy that they are dragging their feet on getting the latest booster out - in time for back to school and before the Bridge Access program runs out at the end of he month....Novavax said months ago they'd be ready to ship in July!

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kbutton

kbutton

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Posted
10 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

On a different note, not happy that they are dragging their feet on getting the latest booster out - in time for back to school and before the Bridge Access program runs out at the end of he month....Novavax said months ago they'd be ready to ship in July!

Two of us got boosted this summer, which puts us just in time for November full shots. Where we live, it’s ridiculous to get flu shots before November (we watch the map) because we’re kind of late for flu. People are still testing positive for it now—DH sees it at work, and a friend’s husband had Flu A a week or so ago (and hospitals are conspicuously full here). So, I am hoping that at least the two of us who are boosted can do the Moderna flu/Covid shot for best immune response. I am not sure if the other two should wait that long for a booster though.

DH will be required to have his flu shot absurdly early for work (probably at least two months before ANY cases appear in our state), so it probably doesn’t matter a lot what he does as it’s all suboptimal.

At the same time, Pfizer always seems to throw me for more of a loop than Moderna (I have pretty wild fatigue for a few days—I take multiple naps per day for days when I get a dose), which makes me wonder if I am getting more from the Pfizer shot.

And I’m glad we probably have options!!! 

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KSera

KSera

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10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

At the same time, Pfizer always seems to throw me for more of a loop than Moderna (I have pretty wild fatigue for a few days—I take multiple naps per day for days when I get a dose), which makes me wonder if I am getting more from the Pfizer shot.

That’s interesting! I have rarely heard someone who reacts more to Pfizer than Moderna? Maybe something that sets your MCAS off in the Pfizer version? Are you considering  Novavax at all? MY MCAS person will likely only get Novavax going forward (until there are other choices). 

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kbutton

kbutton

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Posted
16 minutes ago, KSera said:

That’s interesting! I have rarely heard someone who reacts more to Pfizer than Moderna? Maybe something that sets your MCAS off in the Pfizer version? Are you considering  Novavax at all? MY MCAS person will likely only get Novavax going forward (until there are other choices). 

I think Moderna had more short-lived reactions. It’s really just the sleepiness. It’s so much with Pfizer! I think my first dose of both Pfizer and Moderna I had feverish symptoms (aches and chills).

I don’t feel like I get mast cell symptoms.

IIRC, Novavax is not going to be as up-to-date this year as the mRNA, so I assume we’ll go with P or M. We did get one of the kids Novavax last year because he had a booster in the summer, so he could wait for it to be available.

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Spryte

Spryte

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Posted
12 minutes ago, KSera said:

That’s interesting! I have rarely heard someone who reacts more to Pfizer than Moderna? Maybe something that sets your MCAS off in the Pfizer version? Are you considering  Novavax at all? MY MCAS person will likely only get Novavax going forward (until there are other choices). 

Not @kbutton, but anecdotally Pfizer triggered my unknown-at-time MCAS and was the likely cause of a major issue, according to my docs now. Also, next two shots caused hospital stays as well.

Moderna is slightly better. Hospital visits, but not admitted and it was manageable at home.

Novavax was least problematic, I still had issues but much more manageable. No ER visits!

This is aside from the side effects. Pfizer side effects are the worst for me, and Novavax is the best.

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kbutton

kbutton

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1 minute ago, Spryte said:

Not @kbutton, but anecdotally Pfizer triggered my unknown-at-time MCAS and was the likely cause of a major issue, according to my docs now. Also, next two shots caused hospital stays as well.

Moderna is slightly better. Hospital visits, but not admitted and it was manageable at home.

Novavax was least problematic, I still had issues but much more manageable. No ER visits!

This is aside from the side effects. Pfizer side effects are the worst for me, and Novavax is the best.

That sounds deeply unpleasant!

Does MCAS supersede another diagnosis for you? IIRC, you had some other related-ish condition. I’m being vague in case you don’t want to rehash (or I could be totally wrong, lol!), but I am wondering if you have both issues and if they set each other off, or if the MCAS tossed out the other Dx.

(I just had general “suddenly allergic to literally everything in the allergy panel but food and down” stuff and then started having food intolerances, but I know people are frequently misdiagnosed multiple times.)

 

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KSera

KSera

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29 minutes ago, kbutton said:

 

IIRC, Novavax is not going to be as up-to-date this year as the mRNA, so I assume we’ll go with P or M. 

Yep. That’s what makes this time around a challenging decision. It’s not challenging for our one kid, who definitely will get novavax and not be as updated. I’m hoping the fact that it tends to have a little broader and longer lasting coverage might balance out a little of the fact that it’s not as up-to-date. I’m not sure for the rest of us though. I’ll probably do Novavax for my other son as well since he’s still in the age where the myocarditis incidence is a little higher. It’s super hard to decide strain versus formulation this time around. It sure is way too bad that we have it spreading at such a rate that it’s having the opportunity to mutate at a way faster rate than vaccines can keep up with. 

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Spryte

Spryte

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Posted
1 minute ago, kbutton said:

That sounds deeply unpleasant!

Does MCAS supersede another diagnosis for you? IIRC, you had some other related-ish condition. I’m being vague in case you don’t want to rehash (or I could be totally wrong, lol!), but I am wondering if you have both issues and if they set each other off, or if the MCAS tossed out the other Dx.

(I just had general “suddenly allergic to literally everything in the allergy panel but food and down” stuff and then started having food intolerances, but I know people are frequently misdiagnosed multiple times.)

 


Oof, the suddenly allergic to everything experience stinks! When it comes out of the blue, it is so scary. I’m still reeling from when that happened to me a few months ago, with repeated idiopathic anaphylaxis (which finally landed me with the MCAS dx).

Mine is a convoluted path. I have a lot going on and have gradually added more and more things to avoid, had random hives, and all sorts of other stuff going on. It’s hard to get to the cause of anything because there’s an overlap of symptoms so I chalked everything up to other stuff, even though I had two specialists mention MCAS a few years ago.

The general thinking, of my docs now, is that MCAS was at the root of that least two major issues, possibly more (unexplained liver problem and unexplained UT issues). I would never have imagined MCAS can cause those things!

My DH thinks I’ve had MCAS a long time but it was manageable until an early round of possible Covid (pre-testing). Could be. Everything has intensified since then, and more so after every shot. I will still get my shots, but likely Novavax, I’m really scared of the Pfizer shot at this point. Moderna I might do, if Novavax isn’t available.

I hate not knowing what will cause a reaction.

 

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mommyoffive

mommyoffive

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Posted
On 8/2/2024 at 1:52 PM, Spryte said:

Sigh. My mom is 83, wheelchair bound in a nursing home with dementia — and just tested positive.

GI upset, nausea, lots of congestion, cough. They are giving doxycycline, zofran, Pepcid, I’m not sure what else, probably something for cough and decongestion.

I can’t do much from outside the home, and can’t visit for ten days, so I can’t really ask for tips, but if you have experience with recent strains — what does the progression look like these days?

Sending good thoughts her way.  I hope she has a swift recovery.

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mommyoffive

mommyoffive

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Posted
8 hours ago, kbutton said:

Two of us got boosted this summer, which puts us just in time for November full shots. Where we live, it’s ridiculous to get flu shots before November (we watch the map) because we’re kind of late for flu. People are still testing positive for it now—DH sees it at work, and a friend’s husband had Flu A a week or so ago (and hospitals are conspicuously full here). So, I am hoping that at least the two of us who are boosted can do the Moderna flu/Covid shot for best immune response. I am not sure if the other two should wait that long for a booster though.

DH will be required to have his flu shot absurdly early for work (probably at least two months before ANY cases appear in our state), so it probably doesn’t matter a lot what he does as it’s all suboptimal.

At the same time, Pfizer always seems to throw me for more of a loop than Moderna (I have pretty wild fatigue for a few days—I take multiple naps per day for days when I get a dose), which makes me wonder if I am getting more from the Pfizer shot.

And I’m glad we probably have options!!! 

With what is out there and the way that Covid has more than one wave a year, I think this is the way to go.  Question is can you go get a second booster for the year if you have no reason that you "have" to, just that you want another booster?

It helps to hear thoughts on what you are doing for your family. 

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iamonlyone

iamonlyone

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

There is this regarding the new booster from Novavax. https://www.fda.gov/media/179143/download

I don't know yet what we will do this year - Novavax was mildest for most of those eligible in my family. I do wish we had more data on effectiveness.

I saw something similar: https://www.contagionlive.com/view/novavax-s-jn1-covid-19-vaccine-shows-promise-against-emerging-variants

It does seem like the Novavax vaccine does provide protection for KP.2 and KP.3 strains. Thoughts?

Edited by iamonlyone
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kbutton

kbutton

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16 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

With what is out there and the way that Covid has more than one wave a year, I think this is the way to go.  Question is can you go get a second booster for the year if you have no reason that you "have" to, just that you want another booster?

It helps to hear thoughts on what you are doing for your family. 

I looked at the CDC risk stuff, and 3/4 of us have extra risk factors. One of us was told that a booster was a good idea when we asked one of his specialists. No one asks at the pharmacy.

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KSera

KSera

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1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

https://erictopol.substack.com/p/the-indomitable-covid-virus?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=587835&post_id=147307217&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=q2z70&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

This just makes me want to bang my head against the wall and frustration 😞. We’ve got some really truly promising solutions out there and nobody cares enough to invest in making them. I want to cry 😭. 

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KSera

KSera

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

https://erictopol.substack.com/p/the-indomitable-covid-virus?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=587835&post_id=147307217&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=q2z70&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

I do wish he’d left out the Biden part, because it’s not at all true that Biden has never said the words “long covid” and it took me all of fifteen seconds to find a clip where he does so. Undermines the rest of his post—plenty to be frustrated about without that. 

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mommyoffive

mommyoffive

Posted
Posted
20 hours ago, KSera said:

This just makes me want to bang my head against the wall and frustration 😞. We’ve got some really truly promising solutions out there and nobody cares enough to invest in making them. I want to cry 😭. 

Yes, I am so trying to not lose my mind on that.  But my gosh is it upsetting.

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